EPTAh, I get the rough idea....
But not clear picture.Still, it is sounding scary. I mean, what a world. Realistic world...
It made me totally forgot about Match Fixing Scandal.
Gretech and KeSPA Deadlocked - Page 8
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XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
Ah, I get the rough idea.... But not clear picture.Still, it is sounding scary. I mean, what a world. Realistic world... It made me totally forgot about Match Fixing Scandal. | ||
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seppolevne
Canada1681 Posts
edit: I mean seriously, you think Bandai or whoever makes money if someone makes a Power Rangers movie? Of course they do. If you use someone's shit to make a profit you need their permission. If they say "sure np just give us like 10%" then YOU FUCKING DO IT. It's their shit. | ||
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zak
Korea (South)1009 Posts
If a deal comes it NEEDS to be Kespa and Blizzard working together. Not fking GomTV. Kespa is the reason why esports has been a success in Korea and they should not be left out like this. | ||
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Ighox
Norway580 Posts
On June 09 2010 13:04 JinMaikeul wrote: This is either going to end in business as usual with nothing changing and KeSPA still in charge of the leagues or it's going to end with the death of the Brood War professional scene. I really don't see how there will be a middle ground here. All of the notable players in Brood War are under contract with KeSPA teams. This means that they can be prevented from participating in non-KeSPA events regardless of their own personal desire for the duration of these contracts. Given that GomTV got killed off by this same tactic, I don't see why KeSPA wouldn't employ it again if it came down to it. Unless you believe that professional Brood War can survive not having any of its star players for the duration of their contracts and suddenly jump back on its feet, then it would effectively mean the end of Brood War as I doubt many Korean viewers would be very eager to see a bunch of no-named B-teamers or worse playing in the leagues. Viewership would likely plummet, advertising revenues would drop, and it's unlikely that the scene would survive until the top players are freed from their contracts. Without KeSPA, Gretech really doesn't have anything to go on. They don't have the TV stations, they don't have the pro-gaming teams, and they don't have the players or even good casters (Gom's casters were horrible). They simply don't have the resources to preserve Brood War. In the end, this is not about Brood War anyway, but Starcraft 2. Blizzard could care less at this point about Brood War and it's clear that if it needs to be a casualty to further their control over Starcraft 2, they're willing to let that happen. But if KeSPA wasn't allowed to operate leagues anymore and it was enforced, do you think there still would be a KeSPA and would the contracts still be valid? Do you even think the people that make up KeSPA would want to do nothing? The way I see it if KeSPA refuses to negotiate with Gretech they are just counting on taking it to korean court and winning, that's like their only chance other than negotiating and if the case is lost they are permanently fucked so I'd assume KeSPA as an organization would just be dissolved and the teams/sponsors eventually getting involved with Gretech because they would still want money. (?) | ||
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
Blizzard and KeSPA can't get a deal, blizzard says kespa isn't being cooperative, kespa says nothing Blizard and GOM CAN get a deal, relatively quickly, no pain, they both made a deal, no bad mouthing each other Gom and KeSPA can't get a deal, GOM says kespa isn't being cooperative, kespa says nothing KESPA ISN'T DOINT THEIR PAIR, they're acting like children who feel entitled and are trying to hold their ground. This is utterly ridiculous that people can imagine that kespa is ever so cooperative and gom and blizzard and just pulling the carrot a ltitle further from the donkey inch by inch. Kespa isn't doing their share, if they were cooperative like gom and blizzard were to each other, well, then hell, we'd have seen kespa make a deal with blizzard, or kespa make a deal with gom. PS: Stop comparing this to Canon, or Basketball, or anything else. This is something that is unprecedented and none of that bullshit you guys keep saying that would "hold up in the court of law". It won't. There has been no precedent that was set prior to this because this is a completely unique situation. | ||
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On June 09 2010 13:18 Ighox wrote: But if KeSPA wasn't allowed to operate leagues anymore and it was enforced, do you think there still would be a KeSPA and would the contracts still be valid? Do you even think the people that make up KeSPA would want to do nothing? The way I see it if KeSPA refuses to negotiate with Gretech they are just counting on taking it to korean court and winning, that's like their only chance other than negotiating and if the case is lost they are permanently fucked so I'd assume KeSPA as an organization would just be dissolved and the teams/sponsors eventually getting involved with Gretech because they would still want money. (?) I think you're forgetting who KeSPA actually is. KeSPA is comprised of the progaming teams themselves and the corporations that sponsor them. So yes, they would continue to exist even if they weren't allowed to operate the leagues anymore and the contracts in question would still be valid since they are probably directly with the sponsoring corporations and not contingent on whether or not KeSPA leagues actually exist. If the teams and sponsors had any desire at all to be involved with Gretech, this would not even be an issue because that would mean KeSPA wants to be involved with Gretech. Right now, the issue is that the teams and sponsors (AKA: KeSPA) want control of their league and broadcasting rights to their players playing. Blizzard doesn't want the teams and sponsors to control the leagues or to have any rights to the content created by the players under contract with the said teams as well as control over all the players' contracts. This is what created the friction in the first place. The only reason Gretech became involved was a way for Blizzard to pressure KeSPA, but in reality it's difficult to pressure the entity that has all of the players. There's a reason KeSPA won in the conflict with the broadcasting companies (which are now KeSPA members). There's a reason KeSPA was able to kill off GomTV on a whim. And there's a reason that KeSPA will likely not back down here. Without players, you don't have a league regardless of IP rights or anything else for the matter... It's the players and the teams that make a league, not IP rights. On June 09 2010 13:24 ZlaSHeR wrote: Stop bringing up Blizzard in THIS thread. It's not Blizzards fault that kespa wont deal wtih GOM. For gods sake theres a pattern here. Blizzard and KeSPA can't get a deal, blizzard says kespa isn't being cooperative, kespa says nothing Blizard and GOM CAN get a deal, relatively quickly, no pain, they both made a deal, no bad mouthing each other Gom and KeSPA can't get a deal, GOM says kespa isn't being cooperative, kespa says nothing As far as I'm concerned, KeSPA not wanting to deal with Blizzard and Gretech is entirely Blizzard's fault. KeSPA didn't "say nothing". They issued a statement detailing their discussions with Blizzard. Have you bothered reading some of the absurd demands Blizzard made? Frankly, I'm not surprised that KeSPA didn't agree to them because they're absolutely ridiculous. On top of that Blizzard unilaterally cuts off negotiations and instead runs over to deal with Gretech in a move clearly designed to offend KeSPA considering the fact that Gretech has absolutely NOTHING in terms of eSports infrastructure or corporate sponsorship of teams. What did Blizzard think would happen? On June 09 2010 13:24 ZlaSHeR wrote: KESPA ISN'T DOINT THEIR PAIR, they're acting like children who feel entitled and are trying to hold their ground. This is utterly ridiculous that people can imagine that kespa is ever so cooperative and gom and blizzard and just pulling the carrot a ltitle further from the donkey inch by inch. Kespa isn't doing their share, if they were cooperative like gom and blizzard were to each other, well, then hell, we'd have seen kespa make a deal with blizzard, or kespa make a deal with gom. If you don't believe players and the teams they are under contract with should have ownership of the content they produced or that the broadcasting stations should have ownership of the products they produced, then I can see why you might feel this way. To me, however, it's utterly ridiculous that Blizzard can complain about KeSPA not being cooperative while making such ludicrous demands. KeSPA offered to pay royalties and in doing so, they did their fair share. Unfortunately Blizzard wasn't satisfied with this and instead decided to simply be unreasonable in their demands. Personally, I'm not surprised Gom made a deal with Blizzard. Gom is a much weaker entity than KeSPA and therefore much more likely to agree to any of Blizzard's demands whatever they may be. Gom didn't make the OSL/MSL. Gom doesn't pay any of the players or provide facilities for them. They obviously have a lot less to protect in terms of their investment in Starcraft than KeSPA does. On June 09 2010 13:24 ZlaSHeR wrote: PS: Stop comparing this to Canon, or Basketball, or anything else. This is something that is unprecedented and none of that bullshit you guys keep saying that would "hold up in the court of law". It won't. There has been no precedent that was set prior to this because this is a completely unique situation. It's not unprecedented. This kind of thing has gone to court before which is why so many people say that Korean law is on KeSPA's side in this conflict. | ||
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22258 Posts
I whole-heartedly believe they never thought it would come down to this. I think they were being prideful/stubborn and not expecting this. On one hand, I understand, but still... to stake your livlihood on something so unsure to save a little face and some $$$... | ||
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Wargizmo
Australia1237 Posts
On June 09 2010 12:55 adelarge wrote: Could somebody from the Blizzard defending camp explain me where this logic is wrong? Why is A and B different? A: Blizzard created Starcraft. People bought Starcraft. People used it to create esports scene. Blizzards now wants money from the esports scene. B: Canon created cameras. People bought cameras. People used them to take pictures and sold them. Canon now wants money from the sellings. I'm not actually interested in stricly law discussion, more in the moral background. Here's my take from a completely moral perspective: The camera contributes very little to the success of the photographer, if I'm a good photographer I'll make money regardless of whether I'm using Nikon or Canon. On the other hand if Kespa picked a different game, such as Red Alert 3, then no one would watch it because the game that Blizzard spent years designing and balancing is integral to the success of the sport. The basketball analogy can be answered in a similar way, NBA is not successful because of which brand of ball it uses, it is successful largely because of the game itself. Now in sports it's usually ambiguous who owns the actual 'game' because often games are invented by the public over many years, but in the case of Starcraft it's crystal clear, Blizzard invented it, they perfected and balanced it over many years, they own it. | ||
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JustAnotherKnave
United States67 Posts
On June 09 2010 12:36 JinMaikeul wrote: The venture was not primarily for the benefit of the international community. They had English speaking casters behind the Korean ones, but that's about it. KeSPA refused to participate in it because it was sponsored by Blizzard and at the time, they were essentially going through the same nonsense they're going through now with Blizzard suddenly complaining about their IP rights being violated. GomTV was an unfortunate casualty in this mess of a situation, but that's how business works. Please don't act like KeSPA is somehow doing something to purposely screw the international community because it's not. Again, it's obvious KeSPA doesn't really give a shit about anyone but South Korea because all of its business is conducted within Korea. Do you expect the NBA to care about its Japanese audience? How do you figure that KeSPA is somehow preventing the progress of eSports globally when they've got nothing to do with international competition anyway? Also, eliminating KeSPA does nothing to help eSports progress across the globe. If anything, it will probably stunt it by taking away a major organizing body in one of the largest eSports markets in the globe and eliminating some of the very few legitimate professional eSports leagues and teams. KeSPA and the Korean eSports scene are an example that eSports can actually work and can actually reach a certain level of professionalism. Are you suggesting that tearing that down would be a good thing for eSports globally? If so, please explain why it is you believe this would be beneficial at all because I really don't see how it can be. This isn't about Blizzard taking a knee to a "xenophobic nation state" (which I personally find offensive), but about Blizzard not being complete asses about a game they obviously don't care at all about. If they valued their IP rights so much, where the hell were they for 10 years while Starcraft was obviously being played, broadcast, and profits being made from it? Were they under a rock or something? They knew all about the pro-gaming scene in Korea and did nothing to stop it. All of a sudden now they are all concerned and coincidentally their next game is coming down the pipe in a month... I hope Blizzard/Gretech take this to court and get smacked by the judge to put them in their place because this is bullshit. OK, so KeSPA gives Blizzard/Gom the finger a number of years back and they are just supposed to be cool with that? Yeah right; they may have won the battle but i'll be damned if Blizzard ends up losing the war. KeSPA should have considered the repercussions of their actions. Did KeSPA not realize that SC2 would eventually arrive to market? And i'm not trying to say kespa is trying to screw the international community, instead I was speculating on the terms of Gretech's rights (the initial question in my post) if it was international or just korea. As far as I know, Gretech via GOMtv offered me, as an English speaker, access to E-sports - it showed they cared about me just a little, and you know what? I appreciate that. Is it far fetched to speculate that Gretech would again do ME and all other speakers of the international language (American-English) this service? Maybe Husky or whoever will be hired instead having to resort to donations, that would be great. If Korea is going to hold the most developed talent in the sport, they should have learned to share their 'greatness' with the world, instead they turned inward and away from the very hand that fed them the damned game in the first place (hence xenophobic). You cited the NBA, and guess what? It was a big deal for the US and the world when the first Dream Team was sent out to the Olympics in 1992. Over the next 10 years from that time, the number of international players drafted into the NBA went up over 400% and it continues to rise. Was that coincidence? No, it was a concerted effort to bring the sport to the world itself; impediments were overturned to make the Dream Team real and it has payed off. You ask where Blizzard was all these years in regards to IP, and I'm telling you right now they were there and waiting. Revenge is a dish best served cold. And the forecast is real fuckn bleak for KeSPA. Blizzard has known all along that SC1 is just the beginning. Before KeSPA can even finish their litigation over SC1:BW, that game will be a thing of the past. SC2 will assume the mantle of top RTS in Korea and elsewhere. The next crop of talented gamers will be playing SC2, not SC1, for very simple obvious reasons. We who are old enough for sentimentality and nostalgia will still appreciate SC1, and perhaps even consider it a superior game, but that has nothing at all to do with advancement in sport. No one in the NBA still wears Chuck Taylor's on the court. In closing, fuck KeSPA cuz its gonna be a revolution! | ||
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riboflavin
United States226 Posts
Consider this: KeSPA is an opportunistic entity that helped stabilize the SC BW scene in order to create a profit for itself. Alternatively, Blizzard has an existing revenue stream that is thousands of times greater than the e-sports revenue stream today. This move by Blizzard is mathematically unlikely about money and more about creating the groundwork for a stable and reusable e-sports model. Look at the current pro-sports economic model and tell me that a central licensing authority isn't exactly what is needed to take the next steps forward. I don't believe being shortsighted helps in this situation -- yes, Kespa might get left behind and this could be disruptive to the scene on a short term basis. But let's be clear on one thing: KeSPA is not E-sports. KeSPA exists because of E-sports. The reason that SCBW and E-sport in general thrive in SK is because of fan loyalty, marketability and companies willingness to invest marketing dollars into it. I would even argue that a central broadcast authority would help consolidate weaker segments of the scene and make them sponsor-able. Potential sponsors will be significantly more willing to invest in a tournament or league if they knew their marketing dollars were going to a concentrated audience versus a diluted audience due to market chaos/saturation. The positive side effect is that legitimate pro-gamers will be able to make a better-than-reasonable living playing since the money is more concentrated within a set of licensed leagues/teams/etc. The downside is that there will likely be less opportunity for the wanna-be players to compete at the pro level because of the focused set of tournaments and leagues. | ||
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antelope591
Canada820 Posts
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LuDwig-
Italy1143 Posts
They wake up after 10 years for IP? Is it barely possible? lol Blizzard wake up..I used to love you..now you are disgustating me.. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
On June 09 2010 13:24 ZlaSHeR wrote: Stop bringing up Blizzard in THIS thread. It's not Blizzards fault that kespa wont deal wtih GOM. For gods sake theres a pattern here. Blizzard and KeSPA can't get a deal, blizzard says kespa isn't being cooperative, kespa says nothing Blizard and GOM CAN get a deal, relatively quickly, no pain, they both made a deal, no bad mouthing each other Gom and KeSPA can't get a deal, GOM says kespa isn't being cooperative, kespa says nothing KESPA ISN'T DOINT THEIR PAIR, they're acting like children who feel entitled and are trying to hold their ground. This is utterly ridiculous that people can imagine that kespa is ever so cooperative and gom and blizzard and just pulling the carrot a ltitle further from the donkey inch by inch. You're missing an important point though (regarding SC1). KeSPA represents the 12 teams, as well as the proleague, and both starleagues (as OGN and MBC are cooperating with it). GOM represents nobody. Of coures there won't be any pain for GOM to come to an agreement with Blizzard, as they are just going to act as license distributers for SC1 (and are thus just replacing Blizzard's role in the actual negotiations with the existing SC1 scene). Equating Blizzard's dealings with KeSPA vs Blizzards dealings with GOM regarding SC1 is meaningless, because currently GOM doesn't have anything to do with SC1, ergo they have nothing to lose, only to gain (fees from OGN/MBC/teams which will in turn trickle down back to Blizzard), so the initial agreement between GOM and Blizzard isn't really a negotiation, the negotiation is still between Blizzard (now replaced by GOM for the matter) and the teams, sponsors and broadcasting companies. I'm sure KeSPA knows what its doing, and if it has decided to avoid direct negotiations then they likely have plans for when this matter reaches the korean courts. Blizzard is so hypocritical all of a sudden pretending to give a shit about SC1 now that SC2 (which in korea would represent a direct competition as a potential e-sport) is coming out, where as for the past decade they have enjoyed their aditional sales from korea and the attention sc1 got because it was developed as an e-sport. | ||
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Mallard
United States129 Posts
On June 09 2010 13:48 LuDwig- wrote: OK in three words: what the fuck? i thought that IP discussion was for SC2 not for BW.. They wake up after 10 years for IP? Does it makes any sence? From what I understand the whole thing started three years ago when Kespa sold the broadcasting rights to Brood War. Perhaps Blizzard didn't want to get involved but then they saw Kespa going for the money grab and felt like enough was enough. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
but in the case of Starcraft it's crystal clear, Blizzard invented it, they perfected and balanced it over many years, they own it Its painfully clear you have no idea what has happened in Starcraft over the years. SC:BW became a phenomenon that Blizzard could never have predicted ahead-of-time. The way strategy has progressed, the subtle techniques used, and the overall evolution of how to play BW "properly" came about solely because of a large faithful playerbase who continued to work and fine-tune it. If you were active in the scene when SC1 first hit the shelves, you would know that today's BW isn't "Blizzard's game". Its a player-created franchise that became popular because of us. Those "adjustments" they made and all the patches they put out were because we figured out certain things needed tweaking. If we didn't exist, game patches wouldn't exist, and the game would fail. Stop treating the creating party like they're a God for making the original and its not about us for making it what it is today. KeSPA is not E-sports. KeSPA exists because of E-sports. This is correct although the shortsightedness of people who follow this as a truth is nauseating. Basically it'd be like getting rid of the NBA and expecting Basketball to continue because ESPN was given sole broadcasting rights. If you can't see that simple analogy, there's no talking to you. That being said, I restate my previous post. Both parties are equally stubborn and its costing us, the players, our beloved E-Sports franchise. If you take a particular side, it just means you're dumb enough not to be able to see the other side. From a third-person perspective, both of them need to just hug it out and stop fighting over who gets to use the new toy. | ||
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On June 09 2010 13:36 JustAnotherKnave wrote: OK, so KeSPA gives Blizzard/Gom the finger a number of years back and they are just supposed to be cool with that? Yeah right; they may have won the battle but i'll be damned if Blizzard ends up losing the war. KeSPA should have considered the repercussions of their actions. Did KeSPA not realize that SC2 would eventually arrive to market? When you invest money to create a league, create teams, pay players' salaries, create facilities for broadcasting, create 2 24/7 channels almost exclusively for the purpose of broadcasting these leagues and the content you created and then a company comes along 10 years later and demands all the rights to everything you created with the money and effort you invested, you'd probably give them the finger too regardless of whatever repercussions you may face. On June 09 2010 13:36 JustAnotherKnave wrote: And i'm not trying to say kespa is trying to screw the international community, instead I was speculating on the terms of Gretech's rights (the initial question in my post) if it was international or just korea. As far as I know, Gretech via GOMtv offered me, as an English speaker, access to E-sports - it showed they cared about me just a little, and you know what? I appreciate that. Is it far fetched to speculate that Gretech would again do ME and all other speakers of the international language (American-English) this service? Maybe Husky or whoever will be hired instead having to resort to donations, that would be great. I don't feel this kind of bias should have any place here. We're talking about a Korean league. If you feel that one of the greatest eSports scenes in the world should die just because you want an English caster, that's pretty selfish... I think it'd be great to have every broadcast all around the world in every language, but that's just not realistic nor is it something that you should expect. Korean players and corporations worked hard to create their scene. It's not their fault that the players in the USA or other countries didn't do what they did to create a scene for themselves. On June 09 2010 13:36 JustAnotherKnave wrote: If Korea is going to hold the most developed talent in the sport, they should have learned to share their 'greatness' with the world, instead they turned inward and away from the very hand that fed them the damned game in the first place (hence xenophobic). You cited the NBA, and guess what? It was a big deal for the US and the world when the first Dream Team was sent out to the Olympics in 1992. Over the next 10 years from that time, the number of international players drafted into the NBA went up over 400% and it continues to rise. Was that coincidence? No, it was a concerted effort to bring the sport to the world itself; impediments were overturned to make the Dream Team real and it has payed off. South Korea regularly participates in the WCG and pro-gamers from KeSPA have made regular appearances internationally at eSports events over the years including BlizzCon. I don't get where you're getting this idea that South Korea is xenophobic or whatever. Foreign players have even taken part in South Korean tournaments and they tend to be pretty popular too. My point was not that the NBA didn't send anyone to an international event. My point is that they're not going to start adding Japanese commentators or things like that and you wouldn't logically expect them to because Japan is not their target audience. On June 09 2010 13:36 JustAnotherKnave wrote: You ask where Blizzard was all these years in regards to IP, and I'm telling you right now they were there and waiting. Revenge is a dish best served cold. And the forecast is real fuckn bleak for KeSPA. What was there for Blizzard to get revenge on KeSPA for between 1999 and 2007? Nothing. Blizzard did nothing to protect their IP rights all that time so I don't know what you're talking about with the "revenge is a dish best served cold" thing. The conflict between Blizzard and KeSPA only began in recent years. Before that, Blizzard still did nothing for nearly a decade. On June 09 2010 13:36 JustAnotherKnave wrote: Blizzard has known all along that SC1 is just the beginning. Before KeSPA can even finish their litigation over SC1:BW, that game will be a thing of the past. SC2 will assume the mantle of top RTS in Korea and elsewhere. The next crop of talented gamers will be playing SC2, not SC1, for very simple obvious reasons. We who are old enough for sentimentality and nostalgia will still appreciate SC1, and perhaps even consider it a superior game, but that has nothing at all to do with advancement in sport. No one in the NBA still wears Chuck Taylor's on the court. In closing, fuck KeSPA cuz its gonna be a revolution! I think you're either delusional or misinformed. Blizzard had absolutely no idea when they released SC1 how large it would become. I don't know where on earth you would get this idea. While I don't doubt that the next crop of talented gamers will certainly be playing Starcraft 2, I think you're vastly overestimating Starcraft 2's ability to succeed as a serious eSport in Korea, especially without KeSPA. It will take years for Starcraft 2 to reach Brood War assuming that it even can. KeSPA will most likely continue to broadcast Brood War while litigation is pending so it's not as if there will be some sort of blackout period for Brood War either. Despite all this, Starcraft 2's primary handicap of advancing of an eSport will be the very fact that Blizzard will be in complete control of it. Blizzard has never shown an ability to manage serious competition and I highly doubt they will do so here. And unfortunately, their partner, Gretech, has crap for resources compared to KeSPA and I don't know how many companies will be willing to offer players contracts or sponsor them knowing full well that they will get little to nothing out of doing so since Blizzard will own all the content and all of the player contracts... There just doesn't seem to be much incentive there. | ||
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antelope591
Canada820 Posts
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Garaman
United States556 Posts
goddamn money hungry bastards who just want BW to die to make room for sc2. | ||
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Garaman
United States556 Posts
On June 09 2010 07:22 Cerion wrote: Blizzard killing off the BW scene eventually is inevitable fixed | ||
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muta_micro
United States183 Posts
On June 09 2010 07:20 Chef wrote: Thanks for this. “In order to prevent E-SPORTS fans from suffering losses by having leagues shutdown by force, we are doing our best to start negotiations as soon as possible, but kespa and the broadcasting channels have not given us a response, which is very frustrating.” Honestly, I think this is exactly what should happen. They should try to shut down the individual leagues, and then have the law shoved in their faces when they realise they don't have any right to do so. Sorry, Blizzard, but you can't make up the rules. I don't there's any real law that protects their game from being used in broadcasts, and it doesn't exactly look good that they're 8 years too late. Even if SC:BW ends because of this, and Blizzard really does have the law on their side, I think that's dying with honour. If these are the last days of BroodWar, I will watch as many games as I can. I'm not going to watch any e-sports run by the ungrateful company Blizzard has become. The word sport can't even be applied to such a ridiculous venture. To clarify my feelings: I think if only on a matter of principle, KeSPA should not negotiate under these circumstances. Blizzard wants control of an organization they didn't help at all, but that helped them lots. Blizzard is the ultimate brat. This is the best thing I've yet read about this issue. You sir have summed up my feelings perfectly. | ||
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