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France2061 Posts
KeSPA are torpedoing their chances of doing anything with SC2 here, but I assume that they feel confident about BW. I really don't see a Korean judge ordering them to stop broadcasting what they've been doing for ten years without any problem or interference from Blizzard. With regard to SC2 on the other hand, Blizzard has clearly defined their control of the IP, made explicit demands and signed a specific agreement with Gretech, and with no LAN to top it off there's no way KeSPA could start doing anything with the game.
So if they continue to reject Blizzard's demands they're cutting themselves off from the newer game, and will probably try to marginalize it. BW progaming will most likely continue unaltered, barring any surprising legal decision, but as I've said before it's the SC2 scene which will be most negatively affected, as I don't think Blizzard/GOM have the ability to set up a progaming scene similar to BW's on their own.
There's a big risk that Blizzard's short-sightedness will leave us with a stunted SC2 scene, though I guess they think their bottom line isn't really affected in the end.
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Honestly, I'm glad that KESPA is getting the shaft. They had the opportunity, for the longest time, to settle on terms somewhat favorable to them. Now, because they tried to grab too much pie, they might not get any at all! Pie is too good to waste. We've, the sc community and especially the progamers, enjoyed our baked goods through serious love.
The whole deal about IP rights was always in Blizzard's favor, Kespa doesn't get the same chance to act like a child. Since they don't have any claim to the right to broadcast, they were never in a position to act the way they have been.
Its simple, but the emotions can easily be persuaded to believe that Blizzard is out to demolish the house that built them so that they can have a new luxury hotel in its place. We shouldn't jump to these kinds of conclusions. Especially since we're dealing with two corporate entities whose economic interests play the star deciding role.
tl;dr
Hearts in the hand mean less hands on the steering wheel.
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On June 09 2010 06:43 Plexa wrote:
This is a disgusting situation. If things don't improve, all the people the article talked about at the end could lose their livelihood. I mean, does gretech intend to continue the SC1 scene? I would hate to see our beloved game die due to politics.
Thanks Activision. Also, Blizzard, you're good at making games and terrible at knowing what you're bad at. One of which is interacting with your fans in a timely manner.
Oh? You only just got back to us once beta break is over that you're going to fix B.Net 2.0?
Oh? Are you gonna get back to us about how your plan isn't going to ruin BW?
Are you intentionally ruining BW so that GreTech's SC2 league which you allow and will reap huge $$$ from if it is a success (I hope it's not).
I hope all the progamers boycott SC2 and start a campaign against it if they shut down the leagues.
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Ugh, Blizzard pleeeease dont fuck up e-sports.
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seriously, all of these blanket statements about blizzard trying to kill the proscene are just silly, people can't look past their own blind judgment to see what is really going on here, it was hashed out articulately in the original KeSPA/Blizzard thread about how this is standard practice rules between business partnerships where Blizzard simply wants to be able to protect it's own reputation by having sole veto power of what KeSPA does involving eSports, it's not like blizzard is saying, okay kespa, bend over, and we're gonna kill you, blizz just wants to have a piece of the pie (their right to, it's their product), as well as ensure that KeSPA should they do anything unsavory in the eyes of people, can be reprimanded/controlled in such events (KeSPA new sponsor, xxxpornwebsite.com has new team! XXX Hornies!). Remember, as much as this is a financial revenue venture for blizzard, the reputation of blizzard is more important. Losing face and credibility due to mistakes an unchained dog (KeSPA) would be disastrous in a much larger scale than just losing out on the korean market of pro gaming.
It doesn't matter if blizzard let SC:BW run rampant in Korea for years, it's not like KeSPA was there from the beginning, it jumped on the bandwagon when it got large enough, blizzard likewise did the same once it reached international levels of fame. Just cuz they didn't step in before doesn't mean they don't have the right to do so now. Even if KeSPA as a sole organization dies in this and Gom/Blizz has to start it's own leagues, you better believe once it gets popular enough (and it will because lets face it, the FANS will want it, they don't care if it's KeSPA behind it, or Gom/Blizz) the old KeSPA corporations will simply splinter off and recreate itself under a new name and under the power of Gom.
Anything else being spewed in this thread towards blizzard destroying the game/etc is just silly and unwarranted, and claiming they don't own the rights is stupid as well, any brief understanding of how IP rights works will clarify everything and show that Blizzard is 100% in the right here, if they weren't you think KeSPA would be up against the wall right now?
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It was Kespa's efforts that made Esports what it is today, and now Activision is going to destroy it to make a couple more bucks? Activision's greed makes me angry.
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so what im getting out of this is :
Kespas trying to play hardball with blizzard, and blizzard is basically telling them to fuck off?
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On June 09 2010 09:17 iamho wrote:
kespa/ogn/cj/mbc should just buy 51% of gom, cj in particular seems rich enough to do so
You are forgetting something.
There's an unknown contract between Blizzard and GomTV. If you remember the contract Blizzard proposed to KeSPA (that is supposed to be a secret, but luckily KeSPA broke the NDA), they asked for full control over the organization, the leagues and the players.
Even if they buy 100% of GomTV, they would be limited by the contract, so things wouldn't change much.
I really want to know the contract. I'm sure it's something like "BW leagues will cost a lot plus 20% more each year, SC2 leagues will be free or really cheap for the moment, but Blizzard reserves the right to ask for more at any moment".
Oh, and the people that say KeSPA didn't create the BW scene:
When we talk about KeSPA, we talk about the 2 channels and 12 pro teams they represent. And yes, the did create it.
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Is Blizzard's contract with Gretech exclusive to South Korea, or is it the IP rights to broadcast internationally? this distinction I believe to be very important. If its for e-sports on the international level, why shouldn't kespa have to negotiate with Gretech? its not like Kespa has any intention of serving a public that isn't s.korea first and everyone else last.
Also, I'm not entirely sure as to the facts, but from what I've gathered is that at some point Gretech tried to broadcast some progames w/ korean players until hostile actions on the part of kespa forced an end to the venture - a venture that was for the primary benefit of the international community.
From my eyes, it seems kespa doesn't give a shit about anyone but S.Korea. Blizzard does not need to take knee to one lil xenophobic nation state. I say fuck 'em. Good move by Blizzard and I hope they have the litigation power to stop any childish attempts by kespa to continue to stand by their poor judgement and prevent the progress of E-sports globally.
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Jesus Christ, what a clusterfuck.
I get the feeling that this sort of thing will happen more and more as e-sports grows. Gaming is so unique in that it's the one competitive arena where new games are going to come out to replace the old ones. You just wouldn't see Soccer 2 or Chess 2, every time someone has tried something like that it's failed (e.g. the XFL).
From Blizzard's point of view, I can totally see why they're doing it the way they are. If Broodwar continues to be big it's going to take exposure away from SC2 and cost them free advertising. If they can muscle Kespa out of esports then they can control this, they can make sure most of the money and exposure is in SC2 and eventually the top progamers will switch over to where the money is.
Remember all businesses are businesses first and everything else second, people assume that when companies do something good for fans it's because of some benevolent altruism, when actually it's almost always because they get good publicity from it and in the long run it helps sales. As soon as a company feels that the money they can make from good publicity is outweighed by the money they could get by being dirtballs then they're going to stop being so nice, that's just the way business works.
Kespa is also the perfect target because of their past douchebaggery, Blizzard can be the bad guy and not seem so bad because they're beating up on another 'bad guy'.
Personally I'm sad for all the BW fans, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. While personally I like SC2 much more than BW and would love to see it do well as an esport, I can see how people who have followed BW for 10 years are going to be fucked hard by this and it totally sucks.
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On June 09 2010 10:28 Wargizmo wrote:
Jesus Christ, what a clusterfuck.
I get the feeling that this sort of thing will happen more and more as e-sports grows. Gaming is so unique in that it's the one competitive arena where new games are going to come out to replace the old ones. You just wouldn't see Soccer 2 or Chess 2, every time someone has tried something like that it's failed (e.g. the XFL).
From Blizzard's point of view, I can totally see why they're doing it the way they are. If Broodwar continues to be big it's going to take exposure away from SC2 and cost them free advertising. If they can muscle Kespa out of esports then they can control this, they can make sure most of the money and exposure is in SC2 and eventually the top progamers will switch over to where the money is.
Remember all businesses are businesses first and everything else second, people assume that when companies do something good for fans it's because of some benevolent altruism, when actually it's almost always because they get good publicity from it and in the long run it helps sales. As soon as a company feels that the money they can make from good publicity is outweighed by the money they could get by being dirtballs then they're going to stop being so nice, that's just the way business works.
Kespa is also the perfect target because of their past douchebaggery, Blizzard can be the bad guy and not seem so bad because they're beating up on another 'bad guy'.
Personally I'm sad for all the BW fans, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. While personally I like SC2 much more than BW and would love to see it do well as an esport, I can see how people who have followed BW for 10 years are going to be fucked hard by this and it totally sucks.
i agree with this post. they want people to realize sc2 is out and about. but blizzard's thinking is just absurd though. i'm sure sc2 it just needs time. and its not like sc2 doesn't get enough attention as it already is.
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this whole thing is giving me a headache. will this never end?
just reach an agreement, man.
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On June 09 2010 07:11 red_b wrote:
It may be Blizzard's platform but that doesnt mean they own the games, the players, the replays or the broadcasts. If you look at their EULA for SC2 they have taken the stance that they do.
Wait, what?
If their EULA states that they retain IP rights over certain elements related to the software, then they DO OWN them (this is exactly one of the purposes for a EULA). When you, as an end-user, accept the EULA prior to installation -- and as part of the login process -- you have effectively signed a contract with the parties declared in said EULA. It really is that simple. All of these analogies to try to prove a point contradictory to the EULA are pointless. Deal in facts and precedents, not examples that are close but not the same thing.
Blizzard created the software and has inherent rights to it and anything it directly generates. While I understand that this is a tough concept for many to accept, it is legally defensible. If I were a lawyer for Blizzard I would be floored at any reputable corporation or entity that thought otherwise.
However...
The few valid arguments that I have yet to see anyone make are:
Kespa has been broadcasting SC BW games long before Blizzard attempted to protect their IP. In cases of inventions and many types of IP if one does not make legitimate and timely effort to protect it, then they forfeit it. This ultimately means that corporations are legally compelled to sue anyone who infringes...not just the ones with money. It makes for some heartbreaking stories sometimes, but if they did not pursue even the small companies who infringe, then they open the door up for everyone to steal their IP-- as their lack of action will have allowed the notion that they failed to protect their IP previously, thus making it public domain.
The second argument is that acceptance of EULA, which dictates IP boundaries, is an end-user responsibility. MBC, GOM, etc do not accept this when they broadcast what happens to be on the players screens (yes I get camming and obs -- but the principals still apply). The only ones in violation of the IP is the players who accept the EULA and then KNOWINGLY allow it to be broadcast, etc. This is certainly a complex concept and can easily be closed off in several obvious ways. However, the broadcasters could get around this by forcing the individual players to install their own game and accept the licence agreement themselves. If you think this point is not valid, talk to every PC manufacturer in the world. There is a reason you must go through the out-of-box process when you buy a Dell, HP, etc. they are not allowed to accept the Windows EULA (or any other software EULA) on your behalf. I do feel this is really murky territory and I am shocked Blizzard is being so ardent about it, as they are risking direct customer alienation here.
There is a rule in business, "never sue your customers'. Of course, try telling that to DCMA and MPAA. I suppose a thief isn't really a customer though, right? Blizzard has it rough, because the issue isn't direct piracy, the 'theft' occurs after the end-user becomes a customer.
I am supposed to be working right now, so I have to switch off the ranting. I did want to take some time to inject a few facts into the on-going conversation. The plethora of opinion-based analogies is really starting to make my rational-brain go crazy.
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Seriously, how can you even defend kespa in this situation. Blizzard may be no better, but kespa are just like a teenager, which keeps making immature and stupid things. One can only hope that the child will eventually grow up, be more responsible, start thinking on his own and take mature decisions, but it never does
i find this hilarious. that's the same way i feel about blizzard.
what is at stake here is not just for sc/sc2 but esports in general. all other games that gamers want to compete in, organisation that want to hold competitions and leagues for.
If blizzard wants to own the rights on when and where a progamer plays their game - bw or sc2, gom league or whatever, they are just full of themselves. its like they think they have a right to own a person just because of the platform used.
If GomTV or Blizzard had any other intention than to just bleed off OSL / MSL they would have just simply gone ahead with their own leagues. but so far we've heard nothing of a Gom / Gretech league. Blizzard wants to own the progamers and force them to switch to SC2. as i've said b4, they will not be able to get sufficient skilled gamers to play SC2 in korea in a short time if the BW players remain. I bet they'd love to get their hands on Flash/Jaedong sc2.
lastly, why BW will die. for all you blizzard lovers in this debacle. for all who justify saying Blizzard is a company and do things to earn money. you are right.
so BW esports => blizzard hasn't been getting any money apart from ALL the games sold.
SC2 esports => with total control, access to sponsorship money, license fees etc. + ALL games sold (pc bangs everywhere)
without total control, blizzard I suspect is not interested in esports that much - because there is no money to be made (directly). which is warped. they should be grateful to Kespa for promoting their game so well. taking all the headache of organising leagues out of their hands.
if BW is still the hot or a competing league to SC2 -especially with all the incredibly talented BW players- SC2 sales will not be maximised.
rooting for blizzard/gretech in this would be rooting for death for BW. and imo also leagues that you've all come to enjoy these many years.
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On June 09 2010 10:31 [Fin]Vittu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2010 10:28 Wargizmo wrote:
Jesus Christ, what a clusterfuck.
I get the feeling that this sort of thing will happen more and more as e-sports grows. Gaming is so unique in that it's the one competitive arena where new games are going to come out to replace the old ones. You just wouldn't see Soccer 2 or Chess 2, every time someone has tried something like that it's failed (e.g. the XFL).
From Blizzard's point of view, I can totally see why they're doing it the way they are. If Broodwar continues to be big it's going to take exposure away from SC2 and cost them free advertising. If they can muscle Kespa out of esports then they can control this, they can make sure most of the money and exposure is in SC2 and eventually the top progamers will switch over to where the money is.
Remember all businesses are businesses first and everything else second, people assume that when companies do something good for fans it's because of some benevolent altruism, when actually it's almost always because they get good publicity from it and in the long run it helps sales. As soon as a company feels that the money they can make from good publicity is outweighed by the money they could get by being dirtballs then they're going to stop being so nice, that's just the way business works.
Kespa is also the perfect target because of their past douchebaggery, Blizzard can be the bad guy and not seem so bad because they're beating up on another 'bad guy'.
Personally I'm sad for all the BW fans, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. While personally I like SC2 much more than BW and would love to see it do well as an esport, I can see how people who have followed BW for 10 years are going to be fucked hard by this and it totally sucks.
i agree with this post. they want people to realize sc2 is out and about. but blizzard's thinking is just absurd though. i'm sure sc2 it just needs time. and its not like sc2 doesn't get enough attention as it already is.
Blizzard are thinking long term with this one, SC2 may be getting a lot of attention now, but in 5 years time no one will be talking about it unless it's active as an esport. And remember SC2 is only getting this much publicity now because of the success of its predecessor.
There's a reason why games like Dark Reign, Total Annihilation and other games that came out about the same time as Starcarft haven't sold 12 million copies and it's not just because the games themselves aren't as good. Blizzard know the power of esports and want to make sure that SC2 is right up there at #1 and not secondary to another game (BW).
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On June 09 2010 11:02 riboflavin wrote:
....
I wanted to post something like that but you said it way better than I could.
Something to add though.
The banning of public broadcasting of their game (assuming they do use that argument) also means that youtube will most likely pull all blizzard game videos not endorsed by Blizzard. Amateur casting will also be quite difficult as well.
There's so many things that could go wrong here and the only way it can be fixed is by creating new contracts/EULAs that specifically state differences between commercial and non-commercial broadcasting. Also lots of foresight will be required since we really have no idea how these restrictions could conflict with future interest both for Blizzard and for consumers.
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Both sides are equally retarded at this point and players are suffering. If either side tries to act virtuous and say anything like "we offered" or "we tried" or "we wish they would..." or anything even remotely similar to any of those, its just them trying to draw attention as being "the good guy" and anyone who follows them is a moron. They are both to blame for what is turning out to be the death casket of e-sports because of these stupid negotiations. Before anyone says anything contradictory to what I've just said, we are all in the dark about these negotiations and have NO idea what is being asked of either party. For all we know, they could both be saying "we want control and power of everything" to each other or else "no deal". Unless there's some legitimate and accurate source that says otherwise that I'm not aware of, this is the case.
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All I know is that if E-sports dies after SC2 comes out, it is going to hurt the sales on the next two expansions rofl.
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On June 09 2010 07:11 red_b wrote:
It may be Blizzard's platform but that doesnt mean they own the games, the players, the replays or the broadcasts. If you look at their EULA for SC2 they have taken the stance that they do.
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Wait, what?
If their EULA states that they retain IP rights over certain elements related to the software, then they DO OWN them (this is exactly one of the purposes for a EULA). When you, as an end-user, accept the EULA prior to installation -- and as part of the login process -- you have effectively signed a contract with the parties declared in said EULA. It really is that simple. All of these analogies to try to prove a point contradictory to the EULA are pointless. Deal in facts and precedents, not examples that are close but not the same thing.
Blizzard created the software and has inherent rights to it and anything it directly generates. While I understand that this is a tough concept for many to accept, it is legally defensible. If I were a lawyer for Blizzard I would be floored at any reputable corporation or entity that thought otherwise.
However...
The few valid arguments that I have yet to see anyone make, is that Kespa has been broadcasting SC BW games long before Blizzard attempted to protect their IP. In cases of inventions and many types of IP if one does not make legitimate and timely effort to protect it, then they forfeit it. This ultimately means that corporations are legally compelled to sue anyone who infringes...not just the ones with money. It makes for some heartbreaking stories sometimes, but if they did not pursue even the small companies who infringe, then they open the door up for everyone to steal their IP-- as their lack of action will have allowed the notion that they failed to protect their IP previously, thus making it public domain.
The second argument is that acceptance of EULA, which dictates IP boundaries, is an end user responsibility. MBC, GOM, etc do not accept this when they broadcast what is on the players screens. The only ones in violation of the IP is the players who accept the EULA and then KNOWINGLY allow it to be broadcast, etc. This is certainly a complex concept and can easily be closed off in several obvious ways. However, the broadcasters could get around this by forcing the individual players to install their own game and accept the licence agreement themselves. If you think this point is not valid, talk to every PC manufacturer in the world. There is a reason you must go through the Out-of-box process when you buy a Dell, HP, etc. they are not allowed to accept the Windows EULA (or any other software EUAL) on your behalf. this is really murky territory and I am shocked Blizzard is being so ardent about it, as they are risking major customer alienation here. There is a rule in business, never sue your customers. Of course, try telling that to DCMA and MPAA... I suppose a thief isn't really a customer though? Blizzard has it rough, cause the issue isn't direct piracy, the 'theft' occurs after the end-user becomes a customer.
I am supposed to be working right now, so I have to switch off the ranting. But I did want to take a few minutes to inject some facts into the on-going conversation. The plethora of opinion-based analogies is really starting to make my rational-brain go crazy.
good post
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On June 09 2010 11:02 riboflavin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2010 07:11 red_b wrote:
It may be Blizzard's platform but that doesnt mean they own the games, the players, the replays or the broadcasts. If you look at their EULA for SC2 they have taken the stance that they do. Wait, what?If their EULA states that they retain IP rights over certain elements related to the software, then they DO OWN them (this is exactly one of the purposes for a EULA). When you, as an end-user, accept the EULA prior to installation -- and as part of the login process -- you have effectively signed a contract with the parties declared in said EULA. It really is that simple. All of these analogies to try to prove a point contradictory to the EULA are pointless. Deal in facts and precedents, not examples that are close but not the same thing. Blizzard created the software and has inherent rights to it and anything it directly generates. While I understand that this is a tough concept for many to accept, it is legally defensible. If I were a lawyer for Blizzard I would be floored at any reputable corporation or entity that thought otherwise. However...The few valid arguments that I have yet to see anyone make, is that Kespa has been broadcasting SC BW games long before Blizzard attempted to protect their IP. In cases of inventions and many types of IP if one does not make legitimate and timely effort to protect it, then they forfeit it. This ultimately means that corporations are legally compelled to sue anyone who infringes...not just the ones with money. It makes for some heartbreaking stories sometimes, but if they did not pursue even the small companies who infringe, then they open the door up for everyone to steal their IP-- as their lack of action will have allowed the notion that they failed to protect their IP previously, thus making it public domain. The second argument is that acceptance of EULA, which dictates IP boundaries, is an end-user responsibility. MBC, GOM, etc do not accept this when they broadcast what happens to be on the players screens (yes I get camming and obs -- but the principals still apply). The only ones in violation of the IP is the players who accept the EULA and then KNOWINGLY allow it to be broadcast, etc. This is certainly a complex concept and can easily be closed off in several obvious ways. However, the broadcasters could get around this by forcing the individual players to install their own game and accept the licence agreement themselves. If you think this point is not valid, talk to every PC manufacturer in the world. There is a reason you must go through the out-of-box process when you buy a Dell, HP, etc. they are not allowed to accept the Windows EULA (or any other software EULA) on your behalf. I do feel this is really murky territory and I am shocked Blizzard is being so ardent about it, as they are risking direct customer alienation here. There is a rule in business, "never sue your customers'. Of course, try telling that to DCMA and MPAA. I suppose a thief isn't really a customer though, right? Blizzard has it rough, because the issue isn't direct piracy, the 'theft' occurs after the end-user becomes a customer. I am supposed to be working right now, so I have to switch off the ranting. I did want to take a few minutes to inject some facts into the on-going conversation. The plethora of opinion-based analogies is really starting to make my rational-brain go crazy.
Thanks for the post, it was extremely helpful to understanding the legal process behind the situation. I think your right, KESPA's best chance at securing IP rights would probably deal in the fact that Blizzard never asserted their rights from the get go. Though, I believe they did sign a contract with KESPA some years ago; proof that they did acknowledge before all of this went so far south.
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EPT
