In the worst case scenario, restrictions including discontinuation of leagues possible
Negotiations regarding Starcraft's intellectual property rights have run into a deadlock.
On April 25th, Blizzard announced it would cease negotiations with kespa regarding Starcraft's intellectual property rights, which have been carried on since the first half of 2007. Subsequently, on May 27th, [Blizzard] signed Gretech, which broadcasts online via GomTV, as its sole partner in E-SPORTS and granted it all broadcasting rights.
When Blizzard and GomTV made this exclusive deal they announced that they would grant the ongoing leagues a grace period until the end of August in order to minimize confusion among current fans. Furthermore, Blizzard added that in an attempt to protect its IP rights, the company hopes that leagues occurring after this grace period will negotiate with Gretech and reach an agreement in a timely manner.
In response, kespa called an emergency press conference with the 12 pro teams on May 31st, and announced that [kespa] will take proactive measures starting with an official statement with 3 questions specifically targeting Blizzard's intentions behind its unilateral cease of negotiations and its exclusive deal-makings with Gretech,
Even though negotiations have not made any progress since, on May 27th MBCgame hosted its MSL Survivor Tournament qualifiers, and opened its main stages on June 3rd, while OGN is planning to host qualifier rounds for its upcoming Star League on the 11th.
In response, on June 4th, Gretech has requested kespa, OGN and MBCGame to join the negotiations table, sending documents outlining its contract with Blizzard as a warrant for holding negotations, yet none have given a response.
One of Gretech's spokesman said that, “Even though Gretech and Blizzard have reached an agreement and signed an exclusive deal, the game broadcasting companies are forcing the continuation of individual leagues. This is clearly an act of IP right infringement,” and that “In order to prevent E-SPORTS fans from suffering losses by having leagues shutdown by force, we are doing our best to start negotiations as soon as possible, but kespa and the broadcasting channels have not given us a response, which is very frustrating.”
Proleague can run up to its grace period expires in August, but because both individual leagues have ended, if [MBCGame and OGN] want to run a new season, negotiating with Gretech, which holds the status of Blizzard's exclusive partner, should be its top priority. However, [OGN and MBCGame] are forcing the continuation of individual leagues without negotiating.
In response, one of Gretech's spokesmen stated that, “We have sent, on top of an official statement, for the sake of IP rights, an NDA (Non-disclosure agreement) to MBCGame which has already started its MST, but we have received no response, and neither have we from OGN which has its OSL qualifiers scheduled in the near future."
However Gretech did not rule out the possibility that it would have to impose restrictions and shut down leagues in the worst case scenario. A Gretech spokesman said, "If kespa, OGN and MBCGame continue to ignore our requests to open up negotiations, in the worst case scenario, we are left with no choice but to impose restrictions, which may include shutting down leagues," and that, “but we believe that reaching a peaceful resolution through diplomacy would be the best solution, and we want to avoid depriving the E-SPORTS fans by taking away leagues, so we are approaching this issue carefully."
The situation has garners much attention as many are curious how the IP rights negotiations regarding Starcraft, which have fallen into a deadlock, will turn out, and whether the MSL, which has already started its MST phase, or the OSL will be able to progress smoothly.
블리자드는 지난 4월 25일, 2007년 상반기부터 진행한 스타크래프트 지적재산권 협상과 관련해 한국e스포츠협회와 협상 중단을 선언했고, 이후 5월 27일 인터넷 방송 곰TV를 서비스하는 그래텍과 e스포츠 및 방송 파트너십 독점 계약을 체결했다.
블리자드와 곰TV는 이날 독점 계약을 체결하면서 현재 진행되고 있는 리그에 대해서는 팬들의 혼란을 최소화하기 위해 8월까지 유예기간을 둔다고 밝혔고, 향후 진행되는 리그에 대해서는 자신들의 지적재산권을 지키겠다며 하루 빨리 그래텍과 협상을 해서 합의점을 찾길 바란다는 의사를 밝힌 바 있다.
이에 한국e스포츠협회는 지난 5월 31일 12개 프로게임단과 함께 긴급 기자회견을 열고 블리자드의 일방적 협상중단 및 그래텍과의 독점 계약 발표와 관련해 블리자드에 공개적으로 3개 항목에 대해 질의하고 강력 대응할 것임을 선언했다.
하지만 지난 5월 27일 MBC게임의 서바이버 토너먼트 예선전이 진행했고, 6월 3일 본선이 개막했음에도 협상은 별다른 진전을 보이지 않고 있는 상황에서 오는 11일에는 온게임넷의 차기 스타리그 예선전도 예정되어 있다.
이에 그래텍은 지난 6월 4일 한국e스포츠협회와 온게임넷, MBC게임 등 양대 게임 방송국에 자신들이 블리자드와 계약한 내용을 포함한 문서를 내용증명으로 발송하면서 하루라도 빨리 협상 테이블에 자리를 함께할 것을 요청했으나 아직까지 답변이 없는 것으로 알려졌다.
그래텍 관계자에 따르면 “그래텍이 블리자드와 계약이 체결되었음에도 불구하고 게임 방송국은 개인리그를 강행하고 있는데 이는 명백히 지적재산권에 위반되는 행위”라고 말한 뒤 “리그가 파행으로 치달아 e스포츠 팬들이 피해를 보는 일은 없도록 하기 위해 하루빨리 협상을 진행하기 위해 노력하고 있으나 협회와 게임 방송국은 어떤 의사 표시도 하지 않고 있어 답답하다”고 덧붙였다.
현재 진행중인 프로리그의 경우 8월까지 유예기한이 있지만 개인리그의 경우는 이미 리그가 끝났기 때문에 새로운 리그가 진행될 경우 블리자드와 계약을 체결한 그래텍과 협상을 진행해야 하는 것이 순서임에도 현재 상황은 아무런 협상 체결 없이 리그를 강행하고 있는 셈이다.
이에 대해 그래텍 관계자는 “서바이버 토너먼트를 시작한 MBC게임에는 공문은 물론 지적재산권 관련 협상을 위한 기밀유지 협약(NDA, Non-disclosure agreement)까지 함께 발송했음에도 아무런 회신이 없고, 스타리그 예선전을 앞두고 있는 온게임넷 역시 답변이 없는 상황이다”라고 설명했다.
하지만 그래텍은 최악의 경우 리그 중단을 포함한 제재 조치를 가할 가능성을 부인하진 않았다. 그래텍 관계자는 “우리가 계속해서 협회와 게임 방송국에 협상을 요청하고 있음에도 침묵으로 일관한다면 최악의 경우 리그 중단을 포함한 제재 조치를 취할 수 밖에 없다”고 말한 뒤 “그러나 최선의 해결책은 협상을 통한 타협이라고 생각하고 리그가 파행으로 치달아 e스포츠 팬들에게 피해가 가는 상황은 발생하지 않기를 바라기 때문에 신중한 입장”이라고 덧붙였다.
교착 상태에 빠진 스타크래프트 지적재산권 관련 협상이 앞으로 어떤 국면을 맞이하게 될지, 현재 진행중인 서바이버 토너먼트와 예선전을 앞두고 있는 스타리그는 예정대로 진행될 수 있을지 귀추가 주목된다.
▶ 스타크래프트 지적재산권 협상 일지 2007.02. 블리자드, 한국e스포츠협회와 지적재산권 협상 시작 2010.04.25 블리자드 마이크 모하임 대표, 한국e스포츠협회와 협상 중단 선언 2010.05.03 한국e스포츠협회, “블리자드 일방적 협상 중단 인터뷰 유감” 2010.05.27 블리자드, 그래텍과 e스포츠 및 방송 파트너십 독점 계약 2010.05.31 한국e스포츠협회와 12개 프로게임단 긴급 기자회견 2010.06.04 그래텍, 협회-게임 방송국에 내용증명 발송
▶ 참고 자료 - 프로리그 중계권 협상 일지 2006.11.28 차기 시즌 사업 계획의 일환으로 ‘중계권료를 지급하는 주관 미디어 사업자 경쟁 입찰’ 포함 2007.01.17 프로리그 중계권 사업자 선정 관련 입찰 공고 2007.01.25 IEG 단독 입찰로 인한 유찰 결정, 재입찰 진행 2007.01.26 프로리그 중계권 사업자 선정 관련 재입찰 공고 2007.02.05 IEG와 프로리그 중계권 계약 체결 2007.02.08 IEG, 게임 방송국에 우선협상 제안 공문 발송 2007.02.14 게임 방송국 우선협상 거부 2007.02.27 e스포츠 기자단 중재, 게임 방송국과 IEG 협상 진행 2007.03.02 게임 방송국 프로리그 우선협상 제안서 한국e스포츠협회에 전달 2007.03.06 게임 방송국 답변서 수신-1차 협상 결렬 2007.03.16 제3차 협상 결렬→협회-프로게임단, 서바이버 토너먼트 예선 보이콧 2007.03.20 협회-게임 방송국 중계권 협상 극적 타결 2007.03.29 중단된 서바이버 토너먼트 예선전 재개
Kespa, now is the time to open negotiations T/N: This is an opinion piece by FOMOS Writer Lee Jung Han and does not express the thoughts of FOMOS, Blizzard or Gretech After negotiations with Gretech, kespa must rethink its relations with Blizzard
After Blizzard struck a deal with Gretech, making the company its sole partner for E-SPORTS and related broadcasting rights, kespa has lost all rights to negotiate directly with Blizzard.
After the fiasco about Proleague broadcasting rights in 2007, kespa had been in negotiations with Blizzard regarding IP rights, but with a string of unfortunate events starting from Blizzard ceasing negotiations to kespa breaking its NDA shortly thereafter, kespa has lost its place on the negotiations table.
After Blizzard and Gretech announced their partnership agreement, kespa opened an emergency press conference, and announced that it would respond in conjunction with the 12 progaming teams. As a result the IP controversy has reached its peak. During the conference, kespa stated that, “Before negotiating with Gretech, our first priority is to redefine our relationship with Blizzard,” hinting that it had no intentions of negotiating with Gretech.
However this seems to be a poor choice. From kespa's perspective, kespa may feel bitter towards Blizzard who struck an exclusive deal with Gretech without its involvement, and it may also spite Gretech who stole the deal away from kespa's arms. The one thing that is sure, however, is that kespa has already lost its chance. Through its negotiations with Blizzard, Gretech has acquired all rights to Blizzard's gaming industry in South Korea for the next three years, and in this situation as it stands no entity may host a Starcraft tournament without acquiring a sublicense from Gretech.
After the press conference, kepsa has not taken any major actions [regarding the issue]. According to an E-SPORTS insider, kespa has not made any sort of communication to Gretech, which holds the contract, or even Blizzard itself. They are keeping quiet about the issue. As a result MBCGame, in order to host its MST, had to break its agreement to respond in unison to Blizzard's decisions, and announce its intentions of negotiating a separate deal with Gretech.
The grace period suggested by Blizzard and Gretech runs until August. Some may say there are still two months left, but when fine-tuning the terms of a contract, it is not that much time. It will be difficult to reach a successful agreement when limited by a tight time constraint, so kespa must start its negotiation process with Gretech as soon as possible.
Blizzard's decision to strike an exclusive deal with Gretech may be seen as demeaning from kespa's viewpoint, as Blizzard struck a deal with a third party corporation behind the entity that represents all of E-SPORTS in South Korea. But in my opinion kespa should not be wasting any more time because of its ego. This is because kespa is an entity who loses its purpose with the disappearance of the E-SPORTS scene in South Korea. Of course the Korean E-SPORTS scene cannot be defined by just one game such as Starcraft, but there is no doubt that it takes up a large portion of the E-SPORTS market in Korea, and this is why kespa cannot take a overwhelmingly hostile stance towards Blizzard.
Kespa must commence negotiations with Gretech as soon as possible, because there is no guarantee that Gretech will continue to be agreeable towards holding negotiations with kespa in the future. As of now Gretech has stated that it is willing to negotiate with kespa, but if this sort of deadlock situation remains unresolved, there may come a time when Gretech will refuse to open up negotiations with kespa.
The Korean E-SPORTS scene is the fruit of 10 years of hard-work from its players, fans and sponsors, but all this can crumble in one moment if leagues start having trouble continuing due to lack of negotiations stemming from power struggles or ego battles. Now is the time when [kespa] must leave its emotions at the door, and try to reach an agreement through rational thought, for the endless amounts of practice players have put in, the cheers and wishes from their fans, and the efforts of those who aided in the development of E-SPORTS in some way or another, could all have been for nothing.
블리자드와 그래텍이 e스포츠 및 방송 파트너십에 관한 독점 계약을 맺으며 한국e스포츠협회는 블리자드와 직접 협상할 수 있는 자격을 잃었습니다.
한국e스포츠협회는 지난 2007년 프로리그 중계권 파동 이후 블리자드와 지적재산권 관련 협상을 진행해 왔지만 최근 블리자드가 협상 중단 선언을 한데 이어 협회가 NDA를 파기하는 등 악재가 겹치며 협상 테이블에서 제외돼 버렸죠.
블리자드와 그래텍이 파트너십 계약을 했다는 발표를 한 뒤 한국e스포츠협회는 긴급 기자회견을 갖고, 12개 게임단과 공동 대응한다는 뜻을 밝혀 스타크래프트 지적재산권 문제는 점점 절정을 향해 치닫고 있는 상황입니다. 협회는 기자 회견에서 “그래텍과의 협상 이전에 블리자드와의 관계 재정립이 우선”이라고 밝혀 블리자드와 대화를 나누기 전에는 그래텍과 협상하지 않을 뜻을 내비쳤습니다.
하지만 이는 잘못된 판단으로 보입니다. 협회 입장에서는 자신들을 제외하고 그래텍과 파트너십 계약을 해버린 블리자드가 야속하게 느껴질 수도 있고, 중간에서 파트너십을 통해 계약을 가로채간(?) 그래텍이 얄미워 보일 수도 있겠지요. 하지만 한 가지 확실한 건 이미 기차는 떠났다는 겁니다. 그래텍은 블리자드와의 계약을 통해 향후 3년간 한국에서 진행되는 블리자드 게임에 대한 모든 사업권을 획득했고, 결국 한국에서 스타크래프트 리그를 열기 위해서는 어떤 주체도 그래텍과 서브라이센스 계약을 해야만 하는 상황이 되어버린 것이죠.
현재 협회는 기자 회견 이후 별다른 움직임을 보이지 않고 있습니다. e스포츠 소식에 정통한 관계자에 따르면 사업권을 가지고 있는 그래텍 뿐만 아니라 블리자드와도 어떠한 커뮤니케이션을 취하고 있지 않다고 합니다. 침묵만을 지키고 있는 상황이죠. 그 결과 개인리그를 진행해야 하는 MBC게임은 공동 대응의 뜻을 깨고 그래텍과 개별 협상하겠다는 발표를 하기도 했습니다.
블리자드와 그래텍이 협회에게 제시한 리그 진행 유예 기간은 오는 8월까지 입니다. 아직 두 달이나 남았다고 생각할 수도 있지만 협상 테이블에 앉아 서로의 입장을 조율하고 계약을 성사시키기는 그리 길지만은 않은 시간입니다. 시간에 쫓겨 협상을 진행하게 된다면 제대로 된 계약 성사가 어려울 것이 분명함으로 지금부터 차근차근 그래텍과의 협상에 나서야 할 것입니다.
블리자드가 그래텍과 파트너십 독점 계약을 체결한 행위가 한국e스포츠협회 입장에서는 자신들을 무시한 처사라고 볼 수도 있을 겁니다. 엄연히 한국 e스포츠를 대표하는 협회를 놔두고 다른 사업자와 계약을 한 것이니까요. 하지만 지금은 그런 식의 자존심 싸움으로 시간을 낭비할 때가 아니라고 생각합니다. 한국e스포츠협회는 한국에 e스포츠가 존재해야만 가치가 있는 단체이기 때문입니다. 물론 한국의 e스포츠를 스타크래프트라는 종목 하나로 정의할 수는 없지만 한국 e스포츠 시장에서 스타크래프트가 차지하고 있는 비중이 큰 것은 부인할 수 없는 사실이기 때문에 지금 한국e스포츠협회가 블리자드를 상대로 강경 대응 일변도로 대응해서는 안 된다는 것입니다.
협회는 일단 빠른 시일 안에 그래텍과의 협상 테이블에 앉아야 합니다. 그래텍이 협회가 원한다면 언제든지 협상에 임해줄 거라는 보장이 없기 때문이죠. 지금은 그래텍이 협회와 협상을 진행하겠다는 뜻을 밝히고 있지만 이런 교착 상태가 계속된다면 추후에는 그래텍이 협회와의 협상을 거부하는 상황이 발생할 수도 있음을 잊지 말아야 합니다.
선수들과 팬, 그리고 기업체들의 참여로 10년이라는 시간을 이어온 한국 e스포츠입니다. 앞으로 진행될 리그의 우선권이나 파워 싸움, 자존심 등으로 협상이 이뤄지지 않아 리그 진행이 어려워진다면 10년 공든 탑이 한 순간에 허물어질 수 있습니다. 지금도 연습에 매진하고 있는 선수들과 그 선수들을 응원하는 팬들, e스포츠 발전을 위해 기여해온 관계자들의 노력을 헛되이 하지 않기 위해서라도 감정 대립이 아닌 이성적인 사고를 통한 협상을 진행해야 할 때입니다.
This is a disgusting situation. If things don't improve, all the people the article talked about at the end could lose their livelihood. I mean, does gretech intend to continue the SC1 scene? I would hate to see our beloved game die due to politics.
so, from what i gather they lose their chance with cause of their ego and wanting ALL of the money, and are now ready to lose even the profit they could make if they partnered gretech? better nothing than something? rofl
It's like watching children try to play with each other's toys in the sandbox. Also, it unfortunately looks like the shoe is really up the other ass right now. The status quo will probably be gone soon.
It just feels like whoever is ahead of kespa has no clue on how these things work, they should just agree to talk even it didn't mean anything. If they just dragged the negotiation instead, the fans would wait and not put so much pressure.
On June 09 2010 06:45 Megalisk wrote: This is awful, now my dislike for blizzard and kespa are even higher
Blizzard has Sc2 on the way, which they will make millions off of, why can't they just leave Sc1 alone ;;?
Because Blizzard wants SC2 to replace BW. It's a sad situation, but I can sort of understand since it would be quite likely that the current starleagues would go on and BW would still be king in Korea. KeSPA would then just ignore Blizzard and continue what it's been doing.
They keep mentioning the 'fans' and how the 'fans' are their top priority, but this has nothing to do with the fanbase. This is all about money and control. In the past few months we have seen a darker side of Blizzard, and it is company that only has one thing on the agenda: revenue.
If Blizz is really so concerned with it's IP rights then they should have brought this issue to the table years ago. Why do they feel now is the time for this? I don't understand their motives beyond money.. I really hope the worst case scenario is an exaggeration.
Blizzard is no charity group and should not be treated as such. They have brought out quite a lot of successful games and have relatively responded to its customer base very well. Why else would they sell so well? Lets just wait and see how all this plays out and see the state of E-sports after the smoke settles (Unless its not there after it settles rofl -_-).
If E-sports had a much bigger fan base like soccer, I think it might survive this situation. However, it is a niche thing so all this will probably just smudge it out in the page of history.
On June 09 2010 07:08 talismania wrote: I still don't see why Kespa didn't agree to licensing and now sublicensing... how much was blizzard asking for anyways? Just pay them, sheesh.
It wasn't just money. Blizzard only granted permission for a limited time (1 year I think) and demanded the right to control KeSPA and the players 100% (right to cancel the contracts between players and teams, right to get a player to play Blizzard-made leagues and leave KeSPA-made leagues...)
We still don't know if Gretech is softer because of the NDAs ¬_¬ But seeing how uncooperative MBC is, I wouldn't be surprised if it is as harsh.
On June 09 2010 06:54 Belegorm wrote: Because Blizzard wants SC2 to replace BW. It's a sad situation, but I can sort of understand since it would be quite likely that the current starleagues would go on and BW would still be king in Korea. KeSPA would then just ignore Blizzard and continue what it's been doing.
I agree with this assessment. We saw the same thing happen with Valve and source/1.6 where Valve actively ****ed the community to push their new game. Blizzard wants Starcraft 2 on tv and Broodwar off it and I suspect KeSPA said no.
Look, I dont think kespa is a great organization. I really, really dont. But the way this has gone down they have somehow managed to find themselves in the shoes of the "good guys". Blizzard signed a deal with GomTV to threaten kespa, to say "if you dont play by my rules Im taking my ball and going home". If Blizzard was being the good guys, they would have just signed a deal for SC2 with Gom and left Brood War alone, period.
Im sure Blizzard will tell the story that they made kespa all sorts of reasonable offers. Offers which probably include LARGE streams of money flowing into Acitivision's bank accounts. And Kespa will say that Blizzard has done nothing; now they just want a piece of cake without having to clean the mess in the kitchen. Both are standing firm and at this point it looks like it will end in legal action and I suspect kespa will win.
It may be Blizzard's platform but that doesnt mean they own the games, the players, the replays or the broadcasts. If you look at their EULA for SC2 they have taken the stance that they do.
I don't get it, so Kespa negotiations with Gretech = Kespa just pay a, what is probably gonna be a ridiculously large and unreasonable, amount of money to Gretech??
I think this will get more fun and interesting if Kespa just ignores Gretech and just proceeds to broadcast PL, OSL, and MSL without Gretech's consent.
On June 09 2010 06:56 Veil wrote: Think Gretech or Blizzard would take up the reins regarding all aspects of E-sports after Kespa is gone?
Long as E-sports and Pro-teams grow in the future, I don't really care who is running it.
Nope... At least not for SC1. I can see Blizzard and Gretech running some individual leagues without salaries, but I cannot see them being able to support a team league system as currently exists under KeSPA, especially since all of the current teams are owned by KeSPA corporations. If this all goes to hell, Blizzard and Gretech would have to find a whole new group of corporations to sponsor teams and rebuild the infrastructure that KeSPA created (and would take with them).
This is pretty much a big staring contest between the two sides and both sides are just waiting for the other to blink. Without Starcraft, KeSPA would lose its primary source of revenue. However, without KeSPA, Gretech has little to no use for the IP rights to Starcraft since they don't have anywhere near KeSPA's resources to build a new league for an old game. Also keep in mind that all of the top players are still under contract with KeSPA so they wouldn't even be allowed to participate in any Gretech league. If they don't come to an agreement, it'll probably be the end of Starcraft as an eSport and the only hope would be for Starcraft 2 to be successful enough to replace it, which I highly doubt will happen.
This entire situation is pretty disgusting and if anything, I'm more upset with Blizzard than anyone else here. To be honest, all of this has just really turned me off from both Starcraft and Starcraft 2... =/
“In order to prevent E-SPORTS fans from suffering losses by having leagues shutdown by force, we are doing our best to start negotiations as soon as possible, but kespa and the broadcasting channels have not given us a response, which is very frustrating.”
Honestly, I think this is exactly what should happen. They should try to shut down the individual leagues, and then have the law shoved in their faces when they realise they don't have any right to do so. Sorry, Blizzard, but you can't make up the rules. I don't there's any real law that protects their game from being used in broadcasts, and it doesn't exactly look good that they're 8 years too late.
Even if SC:BW ends because of this, and Blizzard really does have the law on their side, I think that's dying with honour. If these are the last days of BroodWar, I will watch as many games as I can. I'm not going to watch any e-sports run by the ungrateful company Blizzard has become. The word sport can't even be applied to such a ridiculous venture.
To clarify my feelings: I think if only on a matter of principle, KeSPA should not negotiate under these circumstances. Blizzard wants control of an organization they didn't help at all, but that helped them lots. Blizzard is the ultimate brat.
I still remember the shit that Kespa pulled with OGN and MBC. I have no sympathy for them at all, they didn't really do much for e-sports but really just butted in for the profit. As long as the SC1 leagues continue in some form Kespa can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.
The sad thing in all this drama is that both Blizzard and KeSPA are only worried about the money. If that wasnt true, they would have reached an agreement by now.
On June 09 2010 07:20 Aphelion wrote: I still remember the shit that Kespa pulled with OGN and MBC. I have no sympathy for them at all, they didn't really do much for e-sports but really just butted in for the profit. As long as the SC1 leagues continue in some form Kespa can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.
yeah, but they wont without kespa Why do you think anyone is supporting kespa?
On June 09 2010 07:21 fabiano wrote: The sad thing in all this drama is that both Blizzard and KeSPA are only worried about the money. If that wasnt true, they would have reached an agreement by now.
I think at this point it's far more about pride than money. KeSPA doesn't want to be Blizzard's bitch and they're not about to be pushed around by a company that contributed nothing, but suddenly wants to come in and take over everything they've created in the past 10 years. Frankly, I can understand that.
On June 09 2010 07:22 Cerion wrote: SC2 killing off the BW scene eventually is inevitable
People also said that when WC3 came out. Look where we are now.
Blizzard is willing to shut down the entire SC1 scene just to prove to Kespa that they don't hold any power in their hands. If Kespa bends over in this SC1 scenario where they are supposedly the strongest, the negotiations for SC2 will take a whole new direction.
Thanks a lot for the really great translations. I sure wish that both parties would stop holding up the "fans" as a shield to their bullshit games. As the opinion piece said, it is time for kespa to evolve to a new situation, like it or not.
On June 09 2010 07:38 kadaver_BB wrote: I seriously hope Kespa dies in a Fire :D
Been a Blizzard Fanboy for 9 Years, they have never let me down, and i haven't lost my faith
People like you are pretty much the reason for Blizzards "We can do what we want" behavior. Reminds me of those Apple Fanboys who will just buy everything that has an "i"-prefix to its name, no matter how bad it is.
Blizzard wants SC1 to die on purpose ... not that i really care for that game but i really care for the fragile eSport Scene as a whole. This whole KeSPA thing might be labeled as an "IP Rights Issue", but in truth, its the same reason why there won't be a LAN implementation or anything like that (Label: Anti Piracy) ... its just about control, nothing else - and i doubt we will enjoy this level of control Blizzard has now
On June 09 2010 07:20 Chef wrote: Thanks for this.
“In order to prevent E-SPORTS fans from suffering losses by having leagues shutdown by force, we are doing our best to start negotiations as soon as possible, but kespa and the broadcasting channels have not given us a response, which is very frustrating.”
Honestly, I think this is exactly what should happen. They should try to shut down the individual leagues, and then have the law shoved in their faces when they realise they don't have any right to do so. Sorry, Blizzard, but you can't make up the rules. I don't there's any real law that protects their game from being used in broadcasts, and it doesn't exactly look good that they're 8 years too late.
Even if SC:BW ends because of this, and Blizzard really does have the law on their side, I think that's dying with honour. If these are the last days of BroodWar, I will watch as many games as I can. I'm not going to watch any e-sports run by the ungrateful company Blizzard has become. The word sport can't even be applied to such a ridiculous venture.
To clarify my feelings: I think if only on a matter of principle, KeSPA should not negotiate under these circumstances. Blizzard wants control of an organization they didn't help at all, but that helped them lots. Blizzard is the ultimate brat.
Blizzard hasn't helped KeSPA at all? =/
StarCraft was popular in Korea before KeSPA existed. KeSPA formed around the StarCraft phenomenon. If Blizzard hadn't put an awesome game in the hands of so many Koreans, KeSPA probably wouldn't exist.
Seriously, how can you even defend kespa in this situation. Blizzard may be no better, but kespa are just like a teenager, which keeps making immature and stupid things. One can only hope that the child will eventually grow up, be more responsible, start thinking on his own and take mature decisions, but it never does.
Is there any more clarification about the ability of gretech to legally enforce these "rights"? I thought there was some gray area , which might be giving kespa hope that they can just ignore the IP rights.
On June 09 2010 07:38 kadaver_BB wrote: I seriously hope Kespa dies in a Fire :D
Been a Blizzard Fanboy for 9 Years, they have never let me down, and i haven't lost my faith
People like you are pretty much the reason for Blizzards "We can do what we want" behavior. Reminds me of those Apple Fanboys who will just buy everything that has an "i"-prefix to its name, no matter how bad it is.
Blizzard wants SC1 to die on purpose ... not that i really care for that game but i really care for the fragile eSport Scene as a whole.
I-Paaaaaadddddd'uuuuuuuuuuuu
Ehh, well ... SC:BW's standarts have become too high. So high, that new players are not welcome there, when sc2 is new, shiny and full of oppurtunities. When kid walks into store, how do you think which game will he buy? The new one ofcourse.
Esports is allready established in Korea, BW isn't going anywhere and the only thing thats going to change is Blizzards in charge not Kespa. In this situation there was NEVER anything to worry about.
On June 09 2010 07:30 Veil wrote: In retrospect what would have happened to E-sports if a centralizing organization like Kespa was not around?
Tournaments and events would have been held directly by the broadcasting stations, the rules and format would vary a lot more, there would likely be no standardized pro teams as we see them today and most likely, everything would be much more low budget. Aside from being the central body of Korean eSports, remember that KeSPA as a group of corporation are also the ones providing much of the financial backing and facilities to make it possible. An organization like KeSPA will always develop in a sport over time because standardization makes life easier for the majority of people and makes things run more efficiently. Of course there are certainly negative aspects to this, but for the most part, they are outweighed by the benefits of having a strong central organization.
If KeSPA dies here and now, it will only be recreated in another form in Starcraft 2, which would make its death meaningless. Whether that means Blizzard/Gretech would become the new "KeSPA", another group of corporations willing to sponsor teams arises to form it, or the same corporations of the current KeSPA simply continue to be involved is yet to be seen. In the end, power goes to the corporations who own the player contracts and material those players create, which is why Blizzard is so keen on getting control of these things for themselves and which is why it's exactly this control that has become the heart of the problem.
On June 09 2010 08:01 IamAnton wrote: Esports is allready established in Korea, BW isn't going anywhere and the only thing thats going to change is Blizzards in charge not Kespa. In this situation there was NEVER anything to worry about.
You're severely misguided if you actually think this is the case. A LOT is going to change if KeSPA is no longer in charge. No more OSL/MSL/Proleague (owned and organized by KeSPA). Possibly no TV broadcasts (OGN and MBC are both KeSPA members). No more pro-gaming teams with their facilities (KHAN, Rolster, SKT1, etc. all owned by KeSPA corporations). No top players like Flash, JD, Stork, etc. (All contracts currently owned by KeSPA). The BW scene as we see it today would literally fall apart without KeSPA's cooperation. What do you think everyone is worried about? eSports is established in Korea as a product of KeSPA and nothing more. Without KeSPA, a new entity would have to rebuild it from the ground up, which would take a lot of time and resources and would certainly kill off Brood War before it happened, which is probably what Blizzard is counting on anyway.
GomTV's league didn't survive without KeSPA's cooperation. What on earth makes you think some other league they create will?
I am expecting to see gretech and Bli$$ard go to Korean court with kespa for the so called IP rights. There is no doubt Blizzard is good at making games, but it equally sucks by inventing these "rights". I feel kespa is looking forward to this. Obviously Korean law is on the kespa side. Can kespa kill SC2 in korean? I guess that is what Blizzard need to think about.
Blizzard has no right over BW imo. In the SC2 EULA obviously everything is now written like: you can't have competition without them being notified, you only "borrow" the game and they own your mom etc. But BW had no ridiculousness in there.
If I want to put on a video of me playing SC2 and stream it live, I should be able to. But the way it's gonna work that will basicly be illegal come SC2 (sure they will tolerate the little guys but still). Sure it's understandable Blizz went like: "they sold some rights relating to a game of ours and make big bucks 0_0" and want a slice of the pie.
So If Starcraft was an oven, Kespa used it to bake a delicious pie wich they then sold to the market, Blizzard who made the oven is like "That pie was made using our oven and they made money from it?!" grrrrr. So now they have build a new type of oven and at the same time want to restrict use of the old oven. So they license the using of it only to the other guy because Kespa is of the opinion that the maker of an oven has no rights to the pie that was baked in it. And this is why they are silent.
And rightly so I might add. Wether the rights would hold up in court is something else.
Remember the time when kespa tried to sell broadcasting rights of starcraft when mbc/ogn were the actual companies hosting the games, coordinating and providing the venues for the games to be played?
Probably the same thing here with Gretech, mbc/ogn will still have to do all the hosting and coordinating but they just have to pay Gretech to broadcast starcraft. How on earth do you expect mbc to cave to Gretech when they did not cave to kespa back then?
On June 09 2010 06:55 BookTwo wrote: why does blizzard want Gretech to have the rights to starcraft after seeing what kespa has done for it?
because they don't care about sc1 anymore.
or maybe because kespa failed to do anything
Are you fucking kidding me? Kespa built the entire starcraft pro-gaming community. Yes, they made some bad decisions in the past, but you can't forget that the e-sports corporations are all built by Kespa.
Blizzard won't do anything with sc1; they probably just want the sc1 pro-gaming community to die in hopes of getting more sales for sc2. Blizzard obviously doesn't care about sc1 OR the fans anymore. Seeing a joke of an interview a couple days ago from Frank Pearce or whatever his name was made me lose all hope in Blizzard.
On June 09 2010 07:38 kadaver_BB wrote: I seriously hope Kespa dies in a Fire :D
Been a Blizzard Fanboy for 9 Years, they have never let me down, and i haven't lost my faith
People like you are pretty much the reason for Blizzards "We can do what we want" behavior. Reminds me of those Apple Fanboys who will just buy everything that has an "i"-prefix to its name, no matter how bad it is.
Blizzard wants SC1 to die on purpose ... not that i really care for that game but i really care for the fragile eSport Scene as a whole.
I-Paaaaaadddddd'uuuuuuuuuuuu
Ehh, well ... SC:BW's standarts have become too high. So high, that new players are not welcome there, when sc2 is new, shiny and full of oppurtunities. When kid walks into store, how do you think which game will he buy? The new one ofcourse.
Or they'd buy the game that's 1/4th the price and runs on virtually any computer
My goodness. This is a friggen sports not a drama. What a mess.
Why do people have to go all coporate on something so beautiful? You don't see James Naismith crying about how he invented basketball and now NBA runs it. Blizzard should be happy that a cast like them managed to make a game anyone cared about enough to make leagues of. Imagine how C&C is feeling.
Sadly, as much as we dislike it we saw it from months, if not years ahead. Kespa please open your eyes...
On June 09 2010 07:38 kadaver_BB wrote: I seriously hope Kespa dies in a Fire :D
Been a Blizzard Fanboy for 9 Years, they have never let me down, and i haven't lost my faith
People like you are pretty much the reason for Blizzards "We can do what we want" behavior. Reminds me of those Apple Fanboys who will just buy everything that has an "i"-prefix to its name, no matter how bad it is.
Blizzard wants SC1 to die on purpose ... not that i really care for that game but i really care for the fragile eSport Scene as a whole. This whole KeSPA thing might be labeled as an "IP Rights Issue", but in truth, its the same reason why there won't be a LAN implementation or anything like that (Label: Anti Piracy) ... its just about control, nothing else - and i doubt we will enjoy this level of control Blizzard has now
Why should Blizzard want SC1 to die? They'd only threaten their sales by angering the korean fanbase. I don't like many of the latest decisions of Blizzard either, but I can understand some of them. No LAN is an inconvenience etc, but if you look at kespa or even ICCup, you gotta understand that they want to contol their game. If Blizzard would really just "kill SC1", they'd have shut down ICCup a long time ago.
So why threatening Kespa/MBC/OGN? I don't know every detail, but from what I observed it's quite simple: If Blizzard wants to get money out of SC2 and possibly even get a piece of the broadcasting profits, Kespa has to die or loose the grip over the Korean scene. Kespa did push Blizzard out of the korean pro-scene when they shut down the GOM league and if they wanted to block sc2 to preserve their scene, they could (at least keep it off the major broadcasting stations and keep the funds out of the new scene)... at least they could have done it a month ago, but since the Blizzard/Gretech deal they kinda depend on Gretechs (and Blizzards) good will.
People should look at why the pro teams stand with kespa instead of dropping them like Bliz has. Mainly, the horrid contracts they hold over their players (abusive really) void out once kespa is removed from the equation. Granted, they can re-create the same bullshit state with GOM, but that's another topic.
Kespa is losing its relevance and seemingly willing to kill the scene as it goes out.
This is just madness.. Imagine if Sc2 didn't become an e-Sport and Sc:BW was discontinued to due this crappy argument..It would hurt both sides.. As far as i'm concerned if Sc2 isn't big, alot of people, myself included will move on to another game.
I don't know where people are getting this shit about "Kespa building the SC scene from scratch". As I recall, it was OGN and MBC (together with different collections of players and teams) that really built it up, then Kespa just walked in and demanded all the broadcasting rights.
If Gretech is successful in running it's own sc1/2 league, Kespa's life ban over the gambling scandal participants will be null in void. We might just see Mr. Ma playing again in the future
On June 09 2010 08:55 deo1 wrote: If Gretech is successful in running it's own sc1/2 league, Kespa's life ban over the gambling scandal participants will be null in void. We might just see Mr. Ma playing again in the future
I'm pretty sure in that case the ban will still carry over. What they did was still illegal and wrong.
On June 09 2010 08:27 Triik wrote: Remember the time when kespa tried to sell broadcasting rights of starcraft when mbc/ogn were the actual companies hosting the games, coordinating and providing the venues for the games to be played?
Probably the same thing here with Gretech, mbc/ogn will still have to do all the hosting and coordinating but they just have to pay Gretech to broadcast starcraft. How on earth do you expect mbc to cave to Gretech when they did not cave to kespa back then?
Actually, I think Kespa was only trying to sell the rights for MBC/OGN to use their players. I'm sure MBC and OGN could have played a bunch of amateurs and not payed any fines. But who wants to watch amateurs play?
On June 09 2010 08:44 sk` wrote: People should look at why the pro teams stand with kespa instead of dropping them like Bliz has. Mainly, the horrid contracts they hold over their players (abusive really) void out once kespa is removed from the equation. Granted, they can re-create the same bullshit state with GOM, but that's another topic.
Kespa is losing its relevance and seemingly willing to kill the scene as it goes out.
Pro teams side with kespa probably because the Kespa pays the salaries? Who is giong to run a pro team without paying their playesr?
On June 09 2010 06:55 BookTwo wrote: why does blizzard want Gretech to have the rights to starcraft after seeing what kespa has done for it?
because they don't care about sc1 anymore.
or maybe because kespa failed to do anything
Are you fucking kidding me? Kespa built the entire starcraft pro-gaming community. Yes, they made some bad decisions in the past, but you can't forget that the e-sports corporations are all built by Kespa.
LMAO @ "Kespa built the entire starcraft pro-gaming community"
Blizzard Side: An organization that has openly broken IP laws in the past is intending to ignore the law again. They refuse to give an inch because they want to make all the money and have control over a game they didn't create or have permission from the creators to use. Awesome.
KeSPA fanboys: Some vague conspiracy theory that Blizzard is trying to kill their own game in order to force a game that is already insanely popular before release to dominate airtime.
I don't think Korean Air would have signed for another OSL if they didn't get assurances that OGN would get the sublicense. Given CJ's heavy involvement in pro-BW, via the CJ team, the hite (OGN) team, and the OGN channel - including all the BW spinoff shows, it might even be worth it to nab another 25% of Gretech to secure majority control just to dictate Gretech's actions, but I don't think it'll come down to that.
On June 09 2010 07:50 Liquid`NonY wrote: Blizzard hasn't helped KeSPA at all? =/
StarCraft was popular in Korea before KeSPA existed. KeSPA formed around the StarCraft phenomenon. If Blizzard hadn't put an awesome game in the hands of so many Koreans, KeSPA probably wouldn't exist.
Im sorry, but blizzard didnt put an awesome games in the hands of koreans, or any gamer at all, they sold them the game, a game that they forgot and never had hopes of being something out of the ordinary cuz it didnt gave them much income. Starcraft has been a "phenomenon" since 2001 and yet Blizzard only saw its potential as an E-SPORT from 2007 and on, and try to claim what its legaly theirs, but moraly they have lost all rights to it. Its like having a kid and giving it to adoption and few years later try to take it back like nothing happened.
And Starcraft its a full of bug's game, hard to play. Its not a great game for the look of any outsider. The game wouldnt have survived, if it werent for the comunity, korean and international, that worked hard to dominate such a hard and buggy game and make it an E-SPORT. It is the comunity that made what starcraft the wonderful game it is.
By itself, starcraft would have died long ago with no hopes. However, even if the comunity didnt had such a great game to stablish itself on, it would have found ANY other game, and made it great, exactly as its happening with SC2. I bet that probably around 90% of the people playing SC2 wouldnt be so excitinly playing it if it werent for the name. It would be just other game. Blizzard help nothing to E-SPORTS until they saw the economic gains it could bring them.
On June 09 2010 09:06 TheElitists wrote: Blizzard Side: An organization that has openly broken IP laws in the past is intending to ignore the law again. They refuse to give an inch because they want to make all the money and have control over a game they didn't create or have permission from the creators to use. Awesome.
KeSPA fanboys: Some vague conspiracy theory that Blizzard is trying to kill their own game in order to force a game that is already insanely popular before release to dominate airtime.
Occam's razer suggests...
Well, don't forget to include the part where Blizzard didn't bother to assert their so-called IP rights until SC2 was about to come out.
On June 09 2010 08:55 deo1 wrote: If Gretech is successful in running it's own sc1/2 league, Kespa's life ban over the gambling scandal participants will be null in void. We might just see Mr. Ma playing again in the future
Any "success" from Gretech would likely be an online-only broadcast which would attract far less of an audience and be far less successful than pro-BW as it is now.
On June 09 2010 07:50 Liquid`NonY wrote: Blizzard hasn't helped KeSPA at all? =/
StarCraft was popular in Korea before KeSPA existed. KeSPA formed around the StarCraft phenomenon. If Blizzard hadn't put an awesome game in the hands of so many Koreans, KeSPA probably wouldn't exist.
Im sorry, but blizzard didnt put an awesome games in the hands of koreans, or any gamer at all, they sold them the game, a game that they forgot and never had hopes of being something out of the ordinary cuz it didnt gave them much income. Starcraft has been a "phenomenon" since 2001 and yet Blizzard only saw its potential as an E-SPORT from 2007 and on, and try to claim what its legaly theirs, but moraly they have lost all rights to it. Its like having a kid and giving it to adoption and few years later try to take it back like nothing happened.
And Starcraft its a full of bug's game, hard to play. Its not a great game for the look of any outsider. The game wouldnt have survived, if it werent for the comunity, korean and international, that worked hard to dominate such a hard and buggy game and make it an E-SPORT. It is the comunity that made what starcraft the wonderful game it is.
By itself, starcraft would have died long ago with no hopes. However, even if the comunity didnt had such a great game to stablish itself on, it would have found ANY other game, and made it great, exactly as its happening with SC2. I bet that probably around 90% of the people playing SC2 wouldnt be so excitinly playing it if it werent for the name. It would be just other game. Blizzard help nothing to E-SPORTS until they saw the economic gains it could bring them.
So, you are mad at Blizzard for lacking the power of divination?
Even though Blizzard probably do have the IP rights in this scenario, I believe that they still should allow free broadcasting of sc2. The role of Blizzard is to write the code for their products, and leave the culture of their games to the culture. Kespa does not have the power to even scratch Blizzard's dominance over the foreign sc2 scene. Tournaments hosted by Blizzard and tournaments hosted by Kespa do not compete. Kespa has absolute zero power outside Korea since 99.9% of sc2 players/viewers are not aware of Kespa's existence. If Blizzard hosts a tournament involving Korea, it either gets outshined by Kespa's tournaments within Korea, or gets completely boycotted if Kespa does not receive rights. Either way, they do not have any control over the Korean market. However, in order to maintain legitimacy in the global market, Korea needs to be included. Even if nobody knows about Kespa's existence, everybody should know that Koreans > all in starcraft. Not seeing Koreans in a global tournament completely shatters the legitimacy of it. If the situation manages to restrict sc2 in Korea to only GOM, and also destroy the scbw scene, then that's the end of sc pretty much. Without Korea, sc2 will just be another popular game that people play for a few months then move onto the next popular game. That hurts Blizzard more than anybody else. Because of this, it is best for Blizzard to allow Kespa all rights for broadcasting sc2.
So the part I find funniest here is that Korean SC is pretty much a child labor situation in various ways and if Kespa used that as a point of negotiation (threatening to expose practices etc) Blizzard would have some significant problems dealing with it - but of course Kespa won't and can't.
as i see it blizzard just stepped into the negotiations with unrealistically unreasonable demands, just to fake negotiations and eventually destroy kespa and sc:bw esports, so their new shiny sc2 game would get all the attention from the spotlights.
i think if kespa would have given up all their rights blizzard would still strongly push the whole scene towards their new product and promote sc2...
well if any of my speculations come true, i truly hope people will turn away from blizzard and its activision bullshit...
I'm really confused at why people are mad at blizzard (they did make the game) [They made a great game, no game no kespa - no kespa no pro scene]. I'm new to the whole situation can someone enlighten me why kespa are being so stubborn? It seems more to it than signing some agreement and continuing what they were doing before.
A lot of this is just random arguing, money, and being stubborn. Blizzard of course is trying to replace Starcraft 1 with Starcraft 2. They are trying to bring in a lot of new fans and keep older fans at the same time. A long time ago when Starcraft BW wasn't as popular they encouraged tournaments, but now, they want Starcraft 2 to be popular so they gave the rights to Gretech because they know that Kespa probably would have tried to keep BroodWar for a long time. Blizzard in the end just wants to make money and is trying to make their new game popular (Blizzard says that its not about money though). The game definitely will be a success, but it might not be as popular as Starcraft BroodWar or it might not excel as fast (Muta stacking, bunker rush, reaver drop, w/e).
Kespa is being extremely stubborn. Rather than communicate they are also trying to force their demands. They also want some money out of the progaming teams as well. [Most progaming teams (the ones not as famous) are treated extremely harsh and the players there get less than 30,000$ USD a year while the rest of the money goes into Kespa]. Kespa is refusing to believe that in the end they could be shut down completely.
Gretech is just waiting and trying to get some money.
We, as fans, can't do much but give our own opinions. We'll have to wait and see. Funny thing is when I heard of Starcraft 2 I thought everyone would be thrilled, but I guess Kespa isn't too happy along with a lot of other people. I'm not so happy anymore. Most of my thoughts could be wrong and can be challenged, but this is what I think.
On June 09 2010 09:32 Merikh wrote: I'm really confused at why people are mad at blizzard (they did make the game) [They made a great game, no game no kespa - no kespa no pro scene]. I'm new to the whole situation can someone enlighten me why kespa are being so stubborn? It seems more to it than signing some agreement and continuing what they were doing before.
Blizzard said that they would shut down the progaming scene in Korea if their licenses etc. weren't respected. Though they did make the game, everyone has the right to be mad at Blizzard. All the progamers, Kespa, etc. made the game into what it is today though. Without the progaming scene, Starcraft would probably consist of D players everywhere. It wouldn't be known either.
This almost seems like a 'favorite soccer team' discussion at times. Most of the negotiations have been behind closed doors, yet everyone has figured out who the bad guy is, and is more then willing to tell the truth here.
It also seems like chatroom rage have turned into blizzard rage, which now carries over to threads like this. Some people needs to relax and try to sort between facts and silly conspiracy theories (like Blizzard wanting to kill SC1).
Through its negotiations with Blizzard, Gretech has acquired all rights to Blizzard's gaming industry in South Korea for the next three years, and in this situation as it stands no entity may host a Starcraft tournament without acquiring a sublicense from Gretech.
Just curious if TL or any of the other tournaments like ZOTAC and HDH had to buy a sub-license from blizzard or anyone else?
Hate KeSpa as much as you want, for all their obvious personal interests.. But ActivisionBlizzard is doing the exact same. But nowhere in any of this is the Fans Interests.. Blizzard has already taken away Chat Rooms and Cross Realm Play to reduce communication between individuals, it seems like a logical step to lock down and control the most devoted 'market' (fans).. Seems like a logical Next step to do the same globally..
Look, KeSPA will have to abide by the damn law, like it or not they'll have to negotiate because it's not a question of whether or not they will get shut down if they fail to get their heads out of their asses, it's a question of when.
KeSPA made a lot of money off of starcraft, now Blizzard has decided they've mooched enough off of their product and developed services, KeSPA should take what they can get, but in the end it all comes down to greed.
Through its negotiations with Blizzard, Gretech has acquired all rights to Blizzard's gaming industry in South Korea for the next three years, and in this situation as it stands no entity may host a Starcraft tournament without acquiring a sublicense from Gretech.
Just curious if TL or any of the other tournaments like ZOTAC and HDH had to buy a sub-license from blizzard or anyone else?
All tournaments run with a sponsor had to get approval from blizzard, i don't know the specifics, but i know they all had to email blizzs esports department with certain information for approval.
KeSPA are torpedoing their chances of doing anything with SC2 here, but I assume that they feel confident about BW. I really don't see a Korean judge ordering them to stop broadcasting what they've been doing for ten years without any problem or interference from Blizzard. With regard to SC2 on the other hand, Blizzard has clearly defined their control of the IP, made explicit demands and signed a specific agreement with Gretech, and with no LAN to top it off there's no way KeSPA could start doing anything with the game.
So if they continue to reject Blizzard's demands they're cutting themselves off from the newer game, and will probably try to marginalize it. BW progaming will most likely continue unaltered, barring any surprising legal decision, but as I've said before it's the SC2 scene which will be most negatively affected, as I don't think Blizzard/GOM have the ability to set up a progaming scene similar to BW's on their own.
There's a big risk that Blizzard's short-sightedness will leave us with a stunted SC2 scene, though I guess they think their bottom line isn't really affected in the end.
Honestly, I'm glad that KESPA is getting the shaft. They had the opportunity, for the longest time, to settle on terms somewhat favorable to them. Now, because they tried to grab too much pie, they might not get any at all! Pie is too good to waste. We've, the sc community and especially the progamers, enjoyed our baked goods through serious love.
The whole deal about IP rights was always in Blizzard's favor, Kespa doesn't get the same chance to act like a child. Since they don't have any claim to the right to broadcast, they were never in a position to act the way they have been.
Its simple, but the emotions can easily be persuaded to believe that Blizzard is out to demolish the house that built them so that they can have a new luxury hotel in its place. We shouldn't jump to these kinds of conclusions. Especially since we're dealing with two corporate entities whose economic interests play the star deciding role.
tl;dr Hearts in the hand mean less hands on the steering wheel.
On June 09 2010 06:43 Plexa wrote: This is a disgusting situation. If things don't improve, all the people the article talked about at the end could lose their livelihood. I mean, does gretech intend to continue the SC1 scene? I would hate to see our beloved game die due to politics.
Thanks Activision. Also, Blizzard, you're good at making games and terrible at knowing what you're bad at. One of which is interacting with your fans in a timely manner.
Oh? You only just got back to us once beta break is over that you're going to fix B.Net 2.0?
Oh? Are you gonna get back to us about how your plan isn't going to ruin BW?
Are you intentionally ruining BW so that GreTech's SC2 league which you allow and will reap huge $$$ from if it is a success (I hope it's not).
I hope all the progamers boycott SC2 and start a campaign against it if they shut down the leagues.
seriously, all of these blanket statements about blizzard trying to kill the proscene are just silly, people can't look past their own blind judgment to see what is really going on here, it was hashed out articulately in the original KeSPA/Blizzard thread about how this is standard practice rules between business partnerships where Blizzard simply wants to be able to protect it's own reputation by having sole veto power of what KeSPA does involving eSports, it's not like blizzard is saying, okay kespa, bend over, and we're gonna kill you, blizz just wants to have a piece of the pie (their right to, it's their product), as well as ensure that KeSPA should they do anything unsavory in the eyes of people, can be reprimanded/controlled in such events (KeSPA new sponsor, xxxpornwebsite.com has new team! XXX Hornies!). Remember, as much as this is a financial revenue venture for blizzard, the reputation of blizzard is more important. Losing face and credibility due to mistakes an unchained dog (KeSPA) would be disastrous in a much larger scale than just losing out on the korean market of pro gaming.
It doesn't matter if blizzard let SC:BW run rampant in Korea for years, it's not like KeSPA was there from the beginning, it jumped on the bandwagon when it got large enough, blizzard likewise did the same once it reached international levels of fame. Just cuz they didn't step in before doesn't mean they don't have the right to do so now. Even if KeSPA as a sole organization dies in this and Gom/Blizz has to start it's own leagues, you better believe once it gets popular enough (and it will because lets face it, the FANS will want it, they don't care if it's KeSPA behind it, or Gom/Blizz) the old KeSPA corporations will simply splinter off and recreate itself under a new name and under the power of Gom.
Anything else being spewed in this thread towards blizzard destroying the game/etc is just silly and unwarranted, and claiming they don't own the rights is stupid as well, any brief understanding of how IP rights works will clarify everything and show that Blizzard is 100% in the right here, if they weren't you think KeSPA would be up against the wall right now?
It was Kespa's efforts that made Esports what it is today, and now Activision is going to destroy it to make a couple more bucks? Activision's greed makes me angry.
On June 09 2010 09:17 iamho wrote: kespa/ogn/cj/mbc should just buy 51% of gom, cj in particular seems rich enough to do so
You are forgetting something.
There's an unknown contract between Blizzard and GomTV. If you remember the contract Blizzard proposed to KeSPA (that is supposed to be a secret, but luckily KeSPA broke the NDA), they asked for full control over the organization, the leagues and the players.
Even if they buy 100% of GomTV, they would be limited by the contract, so things wouldn't change much.
I really want to know the contract. I'm sure it's something like "BW leagues will cost a lot plus 20% more each year, SC2 leagues will be free or really cheap for the moment, but Blizzard reserves the right to ask for more at any moment".
Oh, and the people that say KeSPA didn't create the BW scene: When we talk about KeSPA, we talk about the 2 channels and 12 pro teams they represent. And yes, the did create it.
Is Blizzard's contract with Gretech exclusive to South Korea, or is it the IP rights to broadcast internationally? this distinction I believe to be very important. If its for e-sports on the international level, why shouldn't kespa have to negotiate with Gretech? its not like Kespa has any intention of serving a public that isn't s.korea first and everyone else last.
Also, I'm not entirely sure as to the facts, but from what I've gathered is that at some point Gretech tried to broadcast some progames w/ korean players until hostile actions on the part of kespa forced an end to the venture - a venture that was for the primary benefit of the international community.
From my eyes, it seems kespa doesn't give a shit about anyone but S.Korea. Blizzard does not need to take knee to one lil xenophobic nation state. I say fuck 'em. Good move by Blizzard and I hope they have the litigation power to stop any childish attempts by kespa to continue to stand by their poor judgement and prevent the progress of E-sports globally.
I get the feeling that this sort of thing will happen more and more as e-sports grows. Gaming is so unique in that it's the one competitive arena where new games are going to come out to replace the old ones. You just wouldn't see Soccer 2 or Chess 2, every time someone has tried something like that it's failed (e.g. the XFL).
From Blizzard's point of view, I can totally see why they're doing it the way they are. If Broodwar continues to be big it's going to take exposure away from SC2 and cost them free advertising. If they can muscle Kespa out of esports then they can control this, they can make sure most of the money and exposure is in SC2 and eventually the top progamers will switch over to where the money is.
Remember all businesses are businesses first and everything else second, people assume that when companies do something good for fans it's because of some benevolent altruism, when actually it's almost always because they get good publicity from it and in the long run it helps sales. As soon as a company feels that the money they can make from good publicity is outweighed by the money they could get by being dirtballs then they're going to stop being so nice, that's just the way business works.
Kespa is also the perfect target because of their past douchebaggery, Blizzard can be the bad guy and not seem so bad because they're beating up on another 'bad guy'.
Personally I'm sad for all the BW fans, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. While personally I like SC2 much more than BW and would love to see it do well as an esport, I can see how people who have followed BW for 10 years are going to be fucked hard by this and it totally sucks.
I get the feeling that this sort of thing will happen more and more as e-sports grows. Gaming is so unique in that it's the one competitive arena where new games are going to come out to replace the old ones. You just wouldn't see Soccer 2 or Chess 2, every time someone has tried something like that it's failed (e.g. the XFL).
From Blizzard's point of view, I can totally see why they're doing it the way they are. If Broodwar continues to be big it's going to take exposure away from SC2 and cost them free advertising. If they can muscle Kespa out of esports then they can control this, they can make sure most of the money and exposure is in SC2 and eventually the top progamers will switch over to where the money is.
Remember all businesses are businesses first and everything else second, people assume that when companies do something good for fans it's because of some benevolent altruism, when actually it's almost always because they get good publicity from it and in the long run it helps sales. As soon as a company feels that the money they can make from good publicity is outweighed by the money they could get by being dirtballs then they're going to stop being so nice, that's just the way business works.
Kespa is also the perfect target because of their past douchebaggery, Blizzard can be the bad guy and not seem so bad because they're beating up on another 'bad guy'.
Personally I'm sad for all the BW fans, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. While personally I like SC2 much more than BW and would love to see it do well as an esport, I can see how people who have followed BW for 10 years are going to be fucked hard by this and it totally sucks.
i agree with this post. they want people to realize sc2 is out and about. but blizzard's thinking is just absurd though. i'm sure sc2 it just needs time. and its not like sc2 doesn't get enough attention as it already is.
It may be Blizzard's platform but that doesnt mean they own the games, the players, the replays or the broadcasts. If you look at their EULA for SC2 they have taken the stance that they do.
Wait, what?
If their EULA states that they retain IP rights over certain elements related to the software, then they DO OWN them (this is exactly one of the purposes for a EULA). When you, as an end-user, accept the EULA prior to installation -- and as part of the login process -- you have effectively signed a contract with the parties declared in said EULA. It really is that simple. All of these analogies to try to prove a point contradictory to the EULA are pointless. Deal in facts and precedents, not examples that are close but not the same thing.
Blizzard created the software and has inherent rights to it and anything it directly generates. While I understand that this is a tough concept for many to accept, it is legally defensible. If I were a lawyer for Blizzard I would be floored at any reputable corporation or entity that thought otherwise.
However...
The few valid arguments that I have yet to see anyone make are:
Kespa has been broadcasting SC BW games long before Blizzard attempted to protect their IP. In cases of inventions and many types of IP if one does not make legitimate and timely effort to protect it, then they forfeit it. This ultimately means that corporations are legally compelled to sue anyone who infringes...not just the ones with money. It makes for some heartbreaking stories sometimes, but if they did not pursue even the small companies who infringe, then they open the door up for everyone to steal their IP-- as their lack of action will have allowed the notion that they failed to protect their IP previously, thus making it public domain.
The second argument is that acceptance of EULA, which dictates IP boundaries, is an end-user responsibility. MBC, GOM, etc do not accept this when they broadcast what happens to be on the players screens (yes I get camming and obs -- but the principals still apply). The only ones in violation of the IP is the players who accept the EULA and then KNOWINGLY allow it to be broadcast, etc. This is certainly a complex concept and can easily be closed off in several obvious ways. However, the broadcasters could get around this by forcing the individual players to install their own game and accept the licence agreement themselves. If you think this point is not valid, talk to every PC manufacturer in the world. There is a reason you must go through the out-of-box process when you buy a Dell, HP, etc. they are not allowed to accept the Windows EULA (or any other software EULA) on your behalf. I do feel this is really murky territory and I am shocked Blizzard is being so ardent about it, as they are risking direct customer alienation here.
There is a rule in business, "never sue your customers'. Of course, try telling that to DCMA and MPAA. I suppose a thief isn't really a customer though, right? Blizzard has it rough, because the issue isn't direct piracy, the 'theft' occurs after the end-user becomes a customer.
I am supposed to be working right now, so I have to switch off the ranting. I did want to take some time to inject a few facts into the on-going conversation. The plethora of opinion-based analogies is really starting to make my rational-brain go crazy.
Seriously, how can you even defend kespa in this situation. Blizzard may be no better, but kespa are just like a teenager, which keeps making immature and stupid things. One can only hope that the child will eventually grow up, be more responsible, start thinking on his own and take mature decisions, but it never does
i find this hilarious. that's the same way i feel about blizzard.
what is at stake here is not just for sc/sc2 but esports in general. all other games that gamers want to compete in, organisation that want to hold competitions and leagues for.
If blizzard wants to own the rights on when and where a progamer plays their game - bw or sc2, gom league or whatever, they are just full of themselves. its like they think they have a right to own a person just because of the platform used.
If GomTV or Blizzard had any other intention than to just bleed off OSL / MSL they would have just simply gone ahead with their own leagues. but so far we've heard nothing of a Gom / Gretech league. Blizzard wants to own the progamers and force them to switch to SC2. as i've said b4, they will not be able to get sufficient skilled gamers to play SC2 in korea in a short time if the BW players remain. I bet they'd love to get their hands on Flash/Jaedong sc2.
lastly, why BW will die. for all you blizzard lovers in this debacle. for all who justify saying Blizzard is a company and do things to earn money. you are right.
so BW esports => blizzard hasn't been getting any money apart from ALL the games sold.
SC2 esports => with total control, access to sponsorship money, license fees etc. + ALL games sold (pc bangs everywhere)
without total control, blizzard I suspect is not interested in esports that much - because there is no money to be made (directly). which is warped. they should be grateful to Kespa for promoting their game so well. taking all the headache of organising leagues out of their hands.
if BW is still the hot or a competing league to SC2 -especially with all the incredibly talented BW players- SC2 sales will not be maximised.
rooting for blizzard/gretech in this would be rooting for death for BW. and imo also leagues that you've all come to enjoy these many years.
I get the feeling that this sort of thing will happen more and more as e-sports grows. Gaming is so unique in that it's the one competitive arena where new games are going to come out to replace the old ones. You just wouldn't see Soccer 2 or Chess 2, every time someone has tried something like that it's failed (e.g. the XFL).
From Blizzard's point of view, I can totally see why they're doing it the way they are. If Broodwar continues to be big it's going to take exposure away from SC2 and cost them free advertising. If they can muscle Kespa out of esports then they can control this, they can make sure most of the money and exposure is in SC2 and eventually the top progamers will switch over to where the money is.
Remember all businesses are businesses first and everything else second, people assume that when companies do something good for fans it's because of some benevolent altruism, when actually it's almost always because they get good publicity from it and in the long run it helps sales. As soon as a company feels that the money they can make from good publicity is outweighed by the money they could get by being dirtballs then they're going to stop being so nice, that's just the way business works.
Kespa is also the perfect target because of their past douchebaggery, Blizzard can be the bad guy and not seem so bad because they're beating up on another 'bad guy'.
Personally I'm sad for all the BW fans, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. While personally I like SC2 much more than BW and would love to see it do well as an esport, I can see how people who have followed BW for 10 years are going to be fucked hard by this and it totally sucks.
i agree with this post. they want people to realize sc2 is out and about. but blizzard's thinking is just absurd though. i'm sure sc2 it just needs time. and its not like sc2 doesn't get enough attention as it already is.
Blizzard are thinking long term with this one, SC2 may be getting a lot of attention now, but in 5 years time no one will be talking about it unless it's active as an esport. And remember SC2 is only getting this much publicity now because of the success of its predecessor.
There's a reason why games like Dark Reign, Total Annihilation and other games that came out about the same time as Starcarft haven't sold 12 million copies and it's not just because the games themselves aren't as good. Blizzard know the power of esports and want to make sure that SC2 is right up there at #1 and not secondary to another game (BW).
I wanted to post something like that but you said it way better than I could.
Something to add though. The banning of public broadcasting of their game (assuming they do use that argument) also means that youtube will most likely pull all blizzard game videos not endorsed by Blizzard. Amateur casting will also be quite difficult as well.
There's so many things that could go wrong here and the only way it can be fixed is by creating new contracts/EULAs that specifically state differences between commercial and non-commercial broadcasting. Also lots of foresight will be required since we really have no idea how these restrictions could conflict with future interest both for Blizzard and for consumers.
Both sides are equally retarded at this point and players are suffering. If either side tries to act virtuous and say anything like "we offered" or "we tried" or "we wish they would..." or anything even remotely similar to any of those, its just them trying to draw attention as being "the good guy" and anyone who follows them is a moron. They are both to blame for what is turning out to be the death casket of e-sports because of these stupid negotiations. Before anyone says anything contradictory to what I've just said, we are all in the dark about these negotiations and have NO idea what is being asked of either party. For all we know, they could both be saying "we want control and power of everything" to each other or else "no deal". Unless there's some legitimate and accurate source that says otherwise that I'm not aware of, this is the case.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On June 09 2010 07:11 red_b wrote:
It may be Blizzard's platform but that doesnt mean they own the games, the players, the replays or the broadcasts. If you look at their EULA for SC2 they have taken the stance that they do. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wait, what?
If their EULA states that they retain IP rights over certain elements related to the software, then they DO OWN them (this is exactly one of the purposes for a EULA). When you, as an end-user, accept the EULA prior to installation -- and as part of the login process -- you have effectively signed a contract with the parties declared in said EULA. It really is that simple. All of these analogies to try to prove a point contradictory to the EULA are pointless. Deal in facts and precedents, not examples that are close but not the same thing.
Blizzard created the software and has inherent rights to it and anything it directly generates. While I understand that this is a tough concept for many to accept, it is legally defensible. If I were a lawyer for Blizzard I would be floored at any reputable corporation or entity that thought otherwise.
However...
The few valid arguments that I have yet to see anyone make, is that Kespa has been broadcasting SC BW games long before Blizzard attempted to protect their IP. In cases of inventions and many types of IP if one does not make legitimate and timely effort to protect it, then they forfeit it. This ultimately means that corporations are legally compelled to sue anyone who infringes...not just the ones with money. It makes for some heartbreaking stories sometimes, but if they did not pursue even the small companies who infringe, then they open the door up for everyone to steal their IP-- as their lack of action will have allowed the notion that they failed to protect their IP previously, thus making it public domain.
The second argument is that acceptance of EULA, which dictates IP boundaries, is an end user responsibility. MBC, GOM, etc do not accept this when they broadcast what is on the players screens. The only ones in violation of the IP is the players who accept the EULA and then KNOWINGLY allow it to be broadcast, etc. This is certainly a complex concept and can easily be closed off in several obvious ways. However, the broadcasters could get around this by forcing the individual players to install their own game and accept the licence agreement themselves. If you think this point is not valid, talk to every PC manufacturer in the world. There is a reason you must go through the Out-of-box process when you buy a Dell, HP, etc. they are not allowed to accept the Windows EULA (or any other software EUAL) on your behalf. this is really murky territory and I am shocked Blizzard is being so ardent about it, as they are risking major customer alienation here. There is a rule in business, never sue your customers. Of course, try telling that to DCMA and MPAA... I suppose a thief isn't really a customer though? Blizzard has it rough, cause the issue isn't direct piracy, the 'theft' occurs after the end-user becomes a customer.
I am supposed to be working right now, so I have to switch off the ranting. But I did want to take a few minutes to inject some facts into the on-going conversation. The plethora of opinion-based analogies is really starting to make my rational-brain go crazy.
It may be Blizzard's platform but that doesnt mean they own the games, the players, the replays or the broadcasts. If you look at their EULA for SC2 they have taken the stance that they do.
Wait, what?
If their EULA states that they retain IP rights over certain elements related to the software, then they DO OWN them (this is exactly one of the purposes for a EULA). When you, as an end-user, accept the EULA prior to installation -- and as part of the login process -- you have effectively signed a contract with the parties declared in said EULA. It really is that simple. All of these analogies to try to prove a point contradictory to the EULA are pointless. Deal in facts and precedents, not examples that are close but not the same thing.
Blizzard created the software and has inherent rights to it and anything it directly generates. While I understand that this is a tough concept for many to accept, it is legally defensible. If I were a lawyer for Blizzard I would be floored at any reputable corporation or entity that thought otherwise.
However...
The few valid arguments that I have yet to see anyone make, is that Kespa has been broadcasting SC BW games long before Blizzard attempted to protect their IP. In cases of inventions and many types of IP if one does not make legitimate and timely effort to protect it, then they forfeit it. This ultimately means that corporations are legally compelled to sue anyone who infringes...not just the ones with money. It makes for some heartbreaking stories sometimes, but if they did not pursue even the small companies who infringe, then they open the door up for everyone to steal their IP-- as their lack of action will have allowed the notion that they failed to protect their IP previously, thus making it public domain.
The second argument is that acceptance of EULA, which dictates IP boundaries, is an end-user responsibility. MBC, GOM, etc do not accept this when they broadcast what happens to be on the players screens (yes I get camming and obs -- but the principals still apply). The only ones in violation of the IP is the players who accept the EULA and then KNOWINGLY allow it to be broadcast, etc. This is certainly a complex concept and can easily be closed off in several obvious ways. However, the broadcasters could get around this by forcing the individual players to install their own game and accept the licence agreement themselves. If you think this point is not valid, talk to every PC manufacturer in the world. There is a reason you must go through the out-of-box process when you buy a Dell, HP, etc. they are not allowed to accept the Windows EULA (or any other software EULA) on your behalf. I do feel this is really murky territory and I am shocked Blizzard is being so ardent about it, as they are risking direct customer alienation here.
There is a rule in business, "never sue your customers'. Of course, try telling that to DCMA and MPAA. I suppose a thief isn't really a customer though, right? Blizzard has it rough, because the issue isn't direct piracy, the 'theft' occurs after the end-user becomes a customer.
I am supposed to be working right now, so I have to switch off the ranting. I did want to take a few minutes to inject some facts into the on-going conversation. The plethora of opinion-based analogies is really starting to make my rational-brain go crazy.
Thanks for the post, it was extremely helpful to understanding the legal process behind the situation. I think your right, KESPA's best chance at securing IP rights would probably deal in the fact that Blizzard never asserted their rights from the get go. Though, I believe they did sign a contract with KESPA some years ago; proof that they did acknowledge before all of this went so far south.
KeSPA is doing nothing but pouting like a schoolchild that just had their best friend leave them as they found someone else. I truly don't understand how people can say Blizzard is in the wrong in any way here. KeSPA has done nothing but stifle and oppress esports in Korea, not doing anything that any other organization couldn't have done. If KeSPA refuses to talk to Blizzard's new best friend, Gretech, then it could tragically end the SC1 proscene. What exactly would KeSPA gain from refusing to negotiate with them save for an angry mob at their door?
They didn't do jack shit for pro scene and it's community. I still find it unbelievable there has NEVER been a Blizzard OSL. Or even a donation. Even Prignles had a goddamn OSL
Now they want to take it all down just so they can try to make more money from a shittier game. Which will probably fail miserably.
On June 09 2010 11:40 Mellotron wrote: Alright Kespa, you lose. Now save some face and go onto the next game, not float your buildings to the corner of the map and sit there afk.
On June 09 2010 11:53 Xenocide_Knight wrote: Fuck blizzard
They didn't do jack shit for pro scene and it's community. I still find it unbelievable there has NEVER been a Blizzard OSL. Or even a donation. Even Prignles had a goddamn OSL
You are right. They have done nothing. Besides, you know, creating the game in which the entire community and scene is based off of. But no, of course they don't deserve any credit for that.
Why is it that Starcraft is being treated as some holy object that no laws or rules should apply to? If you replace Starcraft in this situation with a movie, or a television show, or music there would be no argument. There are laws protecting all these forms of created entertainment but for some reason everyone seems to think they should not apply to Starcraft.
I for one do not understang the logic of anyone supporting Blizzard. There are 3 things that can happen. KeSPA agrees fans are happy and Blizzard makes VERY little money. These rights that Blizzard has wont pass and SC1 continues and Blizzard is looked at like if they were mother fucking douche bags that tried to kill SCBW. Lastly neither of them budge and Blizzard sues them, SC1 dies, Blizz makes no money but angers the fans but creates less competition to SC2. Quite frankly I want to see Blizzard rot. They create a great game but then those motherfuckers try to destroy a progaming scene to increase their fricking profits by 1%. But the thing that pisses me off the most is they get away with it. They yield 2bil in profits a year from WoW is it is, but they cant spare a penny for the hapiness of the communities. I really dislike how there is so little for us to do.
On June 09 2010 11:02 riboflavin wrote: However...
The few valid arguments that I have yet to see anyone make are:
Kespa has been broadcasting SC BW games long before Blizzard attempted to protect their IP. In cases of inventions and many types of IP if one does not make legitimate and timely effort to protect it, then they forfeit it. This ultimately means that corporations are legally compelled to sue anyone who infringes...not just the ones with money. It makes for some heartbreaking stories sometimes, but if they did not pursue even the small companies who infringe, then they open the door up for everyone to steal their IP-- as their lack of action will have allowed the notion that they failed to protect their IP previously, thus making it public domain.
I was thinking along these lines when I heard they were giving Kespa until August. Legally if your IP rights are being infringed and you know about it aren't you supposed to give them an immediate cease and desist letter? not say "well we know you're breaking the law but we're going to let it slide for a few months while you wrap up your thing." This leniancy from Blizzard may end up costing them.
On June 09 2010 11:53 Xenocide_Knight wrote: Fuck blizzard
They didn't do jack shit for pro scene and it's community. I still find it unbelievable there has NEVER been a Blizzard OSL. Or even a donation. Even Prignles had a goddamn OSL
Now they want to take it all down just so they can try to make more money from a shittier game. Which will probably fail miserably.
And fuck Kespa too for that matter.
I totally agree with you, and i'm pissed too. Anyway, we foreigners fans must make our voice be heard by Blizzard, going to blizzard forums and post about EVERYTHING we have been commentating here last weeks.
I hate Kespa, but at the same time I dont think Blizzard should have the legal right to do this. I think it should be perfectly legal for anyone to broadcast people playing any video game without getting permission from anyone. I think the law is bullshit in this situation.
On June 09 2010 10:24 JustAnotherKnave wrote: Is Blizzard's contract with Gretech exclusive to South Korea, or is it the IP rights to broadcast internationally? this distinction I believe to be very important. If its for e-sports on the international level, why shouldn't kespa have to negotiate with Gretech? its not like Kespa has any intention of serving a public that isn't s.korea first and everyone else last.
KeSPA is the Korean eSports Players Association. Their target audience is Korean viewers. All of their revenue comes from advertising and stuff inside Korea. Why on earth would they not put Korea first and everyone else last? Use a little bit of logic here... This is an issue about the Korean eSports scene, not the international eSports scene. KeSPA has nothing to do with the international scene (at least not directly).
On June 09 2010 10:24 JustAnotherKnave wrote: Also, I'm not entirely sure as to the facts, but from what I've gathered is that at some point Gretech tried to broadcast some progames w/ korean players until hostile actions on the part of kespa forced an end to the venture - a venture that was for the primary benefit of the international community.
The venture was not primarily for the benefit of the international community. They had English speaking casters behind the Korean ones, but that's about it. KeSPA refused to participate in it because it was sponsored by Blizzard and at the time, they were essentially going through the same nonsense they're going through now with Blizzard suddenly complaining about their IP rights being violated. GomTV was an unfortunate casualty in this mess of a situation, but that's how business works. Please don't act like KeSPA is somehow doing something to purposely screw the international community because it's not.
On June 09 2010 10:24 JustAnotherKnave wrote: From my eyes, it seems kespa doesn't give a shit about anyone but S.Korea. Blizzard does not need to take knee to one lil xenophobic nation state. I say fuck 'em. Good move by Blizzard and I hope they have the litigation power to stop any childish attempts by kespa to continue to stand by their poor judgement and prevent the progress of E-sports globally.
Again, it's obvious KeSPA doesn't really give a shit about anyone but South Korea because all of its business is conducted within Korea. Do you expect the NBA to care about its Japanese audience? How do you figure that KeSPA is somehow preventing the progress of eSports globally when they've got nothing to do with international competition anyway? Also, eliminating KeSPA does nothing to help eSports progress across the globe. If anything, it will probably stunt it by taking away a major organizing body in one of the largest eSports markets in the globe and eliminating some of the very few legitimate professional eSports leagues and teams. KeSPA and the Korean eSports scene are an example that eSports can actually work and can actually reach a certain level of professionalism. Are you suggesting that tearing that down would be a good thing for eSports globally? If so, please explain why it is you believe this would be beneficial at all because I really don't see how it can be.
This isn't about Blizzard taking a knee to a "xenophobic nation state" (which I personally find offensive), but about Blizzard not being complete asses about a game they obviously don't care at all about. If they valued their IP rights so much, where the hell were they for 10 years while Starcraft was obviously being played, broadcast, and profits being made from it? Were they under a rock or something? They knew all about the pro-gaming scene in Korea and did nothing to stop it. All of a sudden now they are all concerned and coincidentally their next game is coming down the pipe in a month... I hope Blizzard/Gretech take this to court and get smacked by the judge to put them in their place because this is bullshit. I feel like Blizzard has seriously lost their way in their mad quest for money and control.
Blizzard, go back to putting your heads down and making your games and leave the development of eSports to the community that actually cares about it. You've proven time and time again that you're absolutely horrible at managing these things anyway so please just stop trying...
Blizzard is against e-sport. Let me explain why, and please forgive my bad english.
Nowadays, videogame's enterprise is based not only selling the game, but also expansions and add-ons, so game developpers have profit long after the game first come out. These expansions and add-ons require changes to the game to make it more attractive to the ... Ver máscustomers. If you don't agree with me, please check how much traffic there is on these items on Xbox Live and PSN.
On the other hand, e-sports must be based on games that are massively played (so there is a market for each game, this require that people don't have to pay every month for a new patch, add-on, etc), that don't change much after every patch (so gamers can develop strategies and techniques through time, just like the starcraft case).
This is why Blizzard has made so much money on WoW and so little with Starcraft, being Starcraft the most awesome game of all time and that has been played for hundreds of thousand people for over 12 years.
I hope i made myself clear, again sorry about my english
People supporting Blizzard are not seeing the whole thing here.. Blizzard is killing e-Sports, in korea on court and in their headquarters making a shitty battle.net 2 so people won't compete as easy as on SC1
On June 09 2010 06:55 BookTwo wrote: why does blizzard want Gretech to have the rights to starcraft after seeing what kespa has done for it?
because they don't care about sc1 anymore.
Because Gretech negotiated with Blizzard instead of being like KeSPA and saying "fuck you, this is our baby and you won't fuck with our baby."
But really, even if KeSPA gets shut down the BW scene won't simply go away. It's a MAJOR part of korean entertainment with a lot of fans, the fans will still be there without KeSPA, there will be a big demand for BW leagues without KeSPA and still a lot of money to be made. People will make deals with Gretech instead, if anyone really disbands there will always be people to take their place as long as there's money to be made and I don't really see how that changes.
Personally I think it's great how Gretech is now in control, at least they've made an effort to run international leagues and english broadcasted korean leagues before and KeSPA were the ones who shut that down. I really do like the korean leagues, but I'm just 99% sure they will continue without problems even if KeSPA is not involved. (And didn't MBC already start negotiations with Gretech? That's probably just the first of many.)
On June 09 2010 12:39 trulla wrote: same thing I posted on TL's facebook:
Blizzard is against e-sport. Let me explain why, and please forgive my bad english.
Nowadays, videogame's enterprise is based not only selling the game, but also expansions and add-ons, so game developpers have profit long after the game first come out. These expansions and add-ons require changes to the game to make it more attractive to the ... Ver máscustomers. If you don't agree with me, please check how much traffic there is on these items on Xbox Live and PSN.
On the other hand, e-sports must be based on games that are massively played (so there is a market for each game, this require that people don't have to pay every month for a new patch, add-on, etc), that don't change much after every patch (so gamers can develop strategies and techniques through time, just like the starcraft case).
This is why Blizzard has made so much money on WoW and so little with Starcraft, being Starcraft the most awesome game of all time and that has been played for hundreds of thousand people for over 12 years.
I hope i made myself clear, again sorry about my english
Except Blizzard have already started running tournaments through GOM TV and the game is not even out of beta yet, they obviously aren't anti-esports, they just want to be the ones calling the shots.
Starcraft is Blizzard's second biggest selling game after WoW so they obviously haven't made "so little" with Starcraft.
BTW a sport can have constant changes to it and can still be extremely popular and competitive as a sport. F1 motor racing for example is extremely popular in many countries and is constantly undergoing revisions and rule changes on a monthly basis.
Adelarge, your analogy is a little off it should be as follows: A: Blizzard created Starcraft. People bought Starcraft. People used it to create esports scene. Blizzards now wants money from the esports scene.
B: Canon created cameras. People bought cameras. People used them to take pictures of copyrighted material and sold them. Copyright holder now wants money from the sellings.
This is either going to end in business as usual with nothing changing and KeSPA still in charge of the leagues or it's going to end with the death of the Brood War professional scene. I really don't see how there will be a middle ground here.
All of the notable players in Brood War are under contract with KeSPA teams. This means that they can be prevented from participating in non-KeSPA events regardless of their own personal desire for the duration of these contracts. Given that GomTV got killed off by this same tactic, I don't see why KeSPA wouldn't employ it again if it came down to it. Unless you believe that professional Brood War can survive not having any of its star players for the duration of their contracts and suddenly jump back on its feet, then it would effectively mean the end of Brood War as I doubt many Korean viewers would be very eager to see a bunch of no-named B-teamers or worse playing in the leagues. Viewership would likely plummet, advertising revenues would drop, and it's unlikely that the scene would survive until the top players are freed from their contracts.
Without KeSPA, Gretech really doesn't have anything to go on. They don't have the TV stations, they don't have the pro-gaming teams, and they don't have the players or even good casters (Gom's casters were horrible). They simply don't have the resources to preserve Brood War. In the end, this is not about Brood War anyway, but Starcraft 2. Blizzard could care less at this point about Brood War and it's clear that if it needs to be a casualty to further their control over Starcraft 2, they're willing to let that happen.
On June 09 2010 13:02 Vec wrote: Adelarge, your analogy is a little off it should be as follows: A: Blizzard created Starcraft. People bought Starcraft. People used it to create esports scene. Blizzards now wants money from the esports scene.
B: Canon created cameras. People bought cameras. People used them to take pictures of copyrighted material and sold them. Copyright holder now wants money from the sellings.
Actually it would be closer to:
A: Blizzard created Starcraft. People bought Starcraft. People used it to create esports scene. Blizzards now wants money from the esports scene.
B: Spalding creates a basketball. The NBA the basketball. The NBA creates a tournament and sells broadcasting rights to stations that want to broadcast players playing with the basketball that they bought. Spalding now wants money for their product being broadcast in a profitable venture and also wants complete ownership of all broadcasts made that show a Spalding basketball along with ownership of all contracts of the basketball players. Don't forget throwing in the right for Spalding to audit the NBA whenever they want and also requiring the NBA to first receive approval from Spalding for any competition they want to hold involving Spalding basketballs.
The concept of intellectual property and the extent of the rights a creator has to his property are not universal. In the USA and some other western nations, we're used to intellectual property laws being pretty strict and in some cases, downright unreasonable. The question comes down to what you are and are not allowed to do with the things you buy and what rights the consumer has as opposed to the creator.
On June 09 2010 12:39 trulla wrote: same thing I posted on TL's facebook:
Blizzard is against e-sport. Let me explain why, and please forgive my bad english.
Nowadays, videogame's enterprise is based not only selling the game, but also expansions and add-ons, so game developpers have profit long after the game first come out. These expansions and add-ons require changes to the game to make it more attractive to the ... Ver máscustomers. If you don't agree with me, please check how much traffic there is on these items on Xbox Live and PSN.
On the other hand, e-sports must be based on games that are massively played (so there is a market for each game, this require that people don't have to pay every month for a new patch, add-on, etc), that don't change much after every patch (so gamers can develop strategies and techniques through time, just like the starcraft case).
This is why Blizzard has made so much money on WoW and so little with Starcraft, being Starcraft the most awesome game of all time and that has been played for hundreds of thousand people for over 12 years.
I hope i made myself clear, again sorry about my english
Except Blizzard have already started running tournaments through GOM TV and the game is not even out of beta yet, they obviously aren't anti-esports, they just want to be the ones calling the shots.
Starcraft is Blizzard's second biggest selling game after WoW so they obviously haven't made "so little" with Starcraft.
BTW a sport can have constant changes to it and can still be extremely popular and competitive as a sport. F1 motor racing for example is extremely popular in many countries and is constantly undergoing revisions and rule changes on a monthly basis.
Yes, they want to take control of e-sports in korea where it is a profitable business, but not in other regions, that's why no crossrealm in bnet2.0. Anyway the way blizzard is fucking everything up with sc2 and bnet2, SCII will not have a massive competitive scene as SC:BW. I really don't think so.
they haven't, that's why the game has already 2 expansions coming.
changing the technology of the cars of course is a part of the competition on F1 because the teams are car producers and they want to take advantage from their own technology and research. I don't see any other sport where they change the rules every year (in games it would be every 2 months)
A company wanting to make money!? THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!
edit: I mean seriously, you think Bandai or whoever makes money if someone makes a Power Rangers movie? Of course they do. If you use someone's shit to make a profit you need their permission. If they say "sure np just give us like 10%" then YOU FUCKING DO IT. It's their shit.
lol blizzard really screwed kespa with the gretech deal. I guess Blizzard has the right to do whatever they want with the game (it is their IP), but signing an exclusive deal with Gretech fuks up kespa and everything they've done to promote esports.
If a deal comes it NEEDS to be Kespa and Blizzard working together. Not fking GomTV. Kespa is the reason why esports has been a success in Korea and they should not be left out like this.
On June 09 2010 13:04 JinMaikeul wrote: This is either going to end in business as usual with nothing changing and KeSPA still in charge of the leagues or it's going to end with the death of the Brood War professional scene. I really don't see how there will be a middle ground here.
All of the notable players in Brood War are under contract with KeSPA teams. This means that they can be prevented from participating in non-KeSPA events regardless of their own personal desire for the duration of these contracts. Given that GomTV got killed off by this same tactic, I don't see why KeSPA wouldn't employ it again if it came down to it. Unless you believe that professional Brood War can survive not having any of its star players for the duration of their contracts and suddenly jump back on its feet, then it would effectively mean the end of Brood War as I doubt many Korean viewers would be very eager to see a bunch of no-named B-teamers or worse playing in the leagues. Viewership would likely plummet, advertising revenues would drop, and it's unlikely that the scene would survive until the top players are freed from their contracts.
Without KeSPA, Gretech really doesn't have anything to go on. They don't have the TV stations, they don't have the pro-gaming teams, and they don't have the players or even good casters (Gom's casters were horrible). They simply don't have the resources to preserve Brood War. In the end, this is not about Brood War anyway, but Starcraft 2. Blizzard could care less at this point about Brood War and it's clear that if it needs to be a casualty to further their control over Starcraft 2, they're willing to let that happen.
But if KeSPA wasn't allowed to operate leagues anymore and it was enforced, do you think there still would be a KeSPA and would the contracts still be valid? Do you even think the people that make up KeSPA would want to do nothing? The way I see it if KeSPA refuses to negotiate with Gretech they are just counting on taking it to korean court and winning, that's like their only chance other than negotiating and if the case is lost they are permanently fucked so I'd assume KeSPA as an organization would just be dissolved and the teams/sponsors eventually getting involved with Gretech because they would still want money.
Stop bringing up Blizzard in THIS thread. It's not Blizzards fault that kespa wont deal wtih GOM. For gods sake theres a pattern here.
Blizzard and KeSPA can't get a deal, blizzard says kespa isn't being cooperative, kespa says nothing
Blizard and GOM CAN get a deal, relatively quickly, no pain, they both made a deal, no bad mouthing each other
Gom and KeSPA can't get a deal, GOM says kespa isn't being cooperative, kespa says nothing
KESPA ISN'T DOINT THEIR PAIR, they're acting like children who feel entitled and are trying to hold their ground. This is utterly ridiculous that people can imagine that kespa is ever so cooperative and gom and blizzard and just pulling the carrot a ltitle further from the donkey inch by inch.
Kespa isn't doing their share, if they were cooperative like gom and blizzard were to each other, well, then hell, we'd have seen kespa make a deal with blizzard, or kespa make a deal with gom.
PS: Stop comparing this to Canon, or Basketball, or anything else. This is something that is unprecedented and none of that bullshit you guys keep saying that would "hold up in the court of law". It won't. There has been no precedent that was set prior to this because this is a completely unique situation.
On June 09 2010 13:18 Ighox wrote: But if KeSPA wasn't allowed to operate leagues anymore and it was enforced, do you think there still would be a KeSPA and would the contracts still be valid? Do you even think the people that make up KeSPA would want to do nothing? The way I see it if KeSPA refuses to negotiate with Gretech they are just counting on taking it to korean court and winning, that's like their only chance other than negotiating and if the case is lost they are permanently fucked so I'd assume KeSPA as an organization would just be dissolved and the teams/sponsors eventually getting involved with Gretech because they would still want money. (?)
I think you're forgetting who KeSPA actually is. KeSPA is comprised of the progaming teams themselves and the corporations that sponsor them. So yes, they would continue to exist even if they weren't allowed to operate the leagues anymore and the contracts in question would still be valid since they are probably directly with the sponsoring corporations and not contingent on whether or not KeSPA leagues actually exist. If the teams and sponsors had any desire at all to be involved with Gretech, this would not even be an issue because that would mean KeSPA wants to be involved with Gretech. Right now, the issue is that the teams and sponsors (AKA: KeSPA) want control of their league and broadcasting rights to their players playing. Blizzard doesn't want the teams and sponsors to control the leagues or to have any rights to the content created by the players under contract with the said teams as well as control over all the players' contracts. This is what created the friction in the first place.
The only reason Gretech became involved was a way for Blizzard to pressure KeSPA, but in reality it's difficult to pressure the entity that has all of the players. There's a reason KeSPA won in the conflict with the broadcasting companies (which are now KeSPA members). There's a reason KeSPA was able to kill off GomTV on a whim. And there's a reason that KeSPA will likely not back down here. Without players, you don't have a league regardless of IP rights or anything else for the matter... It's the players and the teams that make a league, not IP rights.
On June 09 2010 13:24 ZlaSHeR wrote: Stop bringing up Blizzard in THIS thread. It's not Blizzards fault that kespa wont deal wtih GOM. For gods sake theres a pattern here.
Blizzard and KeSPA can't get a deal, blizzard says kespa isn't being cooperative, kespa says nothing
Blizard and GOM CAN get a deal, relatively quickly, no pain, they both made a deal, no bad mouthing each other
Gom and KeSPA can't get a deal, GOM says kespa isn't being cooperative, kespa says nothing
As far as I'm concerned, KeSPA not wanting to deal with Blizzard and Gretech is entirely Blizzard's fault. KeSPA didn't "say nothing". They issued a statement detailing their discussions with Blizzard. Have you bothered reading some of the absurd demands Blizzard made? Frankly, I'm not surprised that KeSPA didn't agree to them because they're absolutely ridiculous. On top of that Blizzard unilaterally cuts off negotiations and instead runs over to deal with Gretech in a move clearly designed to offend KeSPA considering the fact that Gretech has absolutely NOTHING in terms of eSports infrastructure or corporate sponsorship of teams. What did Blizzard think would happen?
On June 09 2010 13:24 ZlaSHeR wrote: KESPA ISN'T DOINT THEIR PAIR, they're acting like children who feel entitled and are trying to hold their ground. This is utterly ridiculous that people can imagine that kespa is ever so cooperative and gom and blizzard and just pulling the carrot a ltitle further from the donkey inch by inch.
Kespa isn't doing their share, if they were cooperative like gom and blizzard were to each other, well, then hell, we'd have seen kespa make a deal with blizzard, or kespa make a deal with gom.
If you don't believe players and the teams they are under contract with should have ownership of the content they produced or that the broadcasting stations should have ownership of the products they produced, then I can see why you might feel this way. To me, however, it's utterly ridiculous that Blizzard can complain about KeSPA not being cooperative while making such ludicrous demands. KeSPA offered to pay royalties and in doing so, they did their fair share. Unfortunately Blizzard wasn't satisfied with this and instead decided to simply be unreasonable in their demands.
Personally, I'm not surprised Gom made a deal with Blizzard. Gom is a much weaker entity than KeSPA and therefore much more likely to agree to any of Blizzard's demands whatever they may be. Gom didn't make the OSL/MSL. Gom doesn't pay any of the players or provide facilities for them. They obviously have a lot less to protect in terms of their investment in Starcraft than KeSPA does.
On June 09 2010 13:24 ZlaSHeR wrote: PS: Stop comparing this to Canon, or Basketball, or anything else. This is something that is unprecedented and none of that bullshit you guys keep saying that would "hold up in the court of law". It won't. There has been no precedent that was set prior to this because this is a completely unique situation.
It's not unprecedented. This kind of thing has gone to court before which is why so many people say that Korean law is on KeSPA's side in this conflict.
I whole-heartedly believe they never thought it would come down to this. I think they were being prideful/stubborn and not expecting this. On one hand, I understand, but still... to stake your livlihood on something so unsure to save a little face and some $$$...
On June 09 2010 12:55 adelarge wrote: Could somebody from the Blizzard defending camp explain me where this logic is wrong? Why is A and B different?
A: Blizzard created Starcraft. People bought Starcraft. People used it to create esports scene. Blizzards now wants money from the esports scene.
B: Canon created cameras. People bought cameras. People used them to take pictures and sold them. Canon now wants money from the sellings.
I'm not actually interested in stricly law discussion, more in the moral background.
Here's my take from a completely moral perspective:
The camera contributes very little to the success of the photographer, if I'm a good photographer I'll make money regardless of whether I'm using Nikon or Canon. On the other hand if Kespa picked a different game, such as Red Alert 3, then no one would watch it because the game that Blizzard spent years designing and balancing is integral to the success of the sport.
The basketball analogy can be answered in a similar way, NBA is not successful because of which brand of ball it uses, it is successful largely because of the game itself. Now in sports it's usually ambiguous who owns the actual 'game' because often games are invented by the public over many years, but in the case of Starcraft it's crystal clear, Blizzard invented it, they perfected and balanced it over many years, they own it.
The venture was not primarily for the benefit of the international community. They had English speaking casters behind the Korean ones, but that's about it. KeSPA refused to participate in it because it was sponsored by Blizzard and at the time, they were essentially going through the same nonsense they're going through now with Blizzard suddenly complaining about their IP rights being violated. GomTV was an unfortunate casualty in this mess of a situation, but that's how business works. Please don't act like KeSPA is somehow doing something to purposely screw the international community because it's not.
Again, it's obvious KeSPA doesn't really give a shit about anyone but South Korea because all of its business is conducted within Korea. Do you expect the NBA to care about its Japanese audience? How do you figure that KeSPA is somehow preventing the progress of eSports globally when they've got nothing to do with international competition anyway? Also, eliminating KeSPA does nothing to help eSports progress across the globe. If anything, it will probably stunt it by taking away a major organizing body in one of the largest eSports markets in the globe and eliminating some of the very few legitimate professional eSports leagues and teams. KeSPA and the Korean eSports scene are an example that eSports can actually work and can actually reach a certain level of professionalism. Are you suggesting that tearing that down would be a good thing for eSports globally? If so, please explain why it is you believe this would be beneficial at all because I really don't see how it can be.
This isn't about Blizzard taking a knee to a "xenophobic nation state" (which I personally find offensive), but about Blizzard not being complete asses about a game they obviously don't care at all about. If they valued their IP rights so much, where the hell were they for 10 years while Starcraft was obviously being played, broadcast, and profits being made from it? Were they under a rock or something? They knew all about the pro-gaming scene in Korea and did nothing to stop it. All of a sudden now they are all concerned and coincidentally their next game is coming down the pipe in a month... I hope Blizzard/Gretech take this to court and get smacked by the judge to put them in their place because this is bullshit.
OK, so KeSPA gives Blizzard/Gom the finger a number of years back and they are just supposed to be cool with that? Yeah right; they may have won the battle but i'll be damned if Blizzard ends up losing the war. KeSPA should have considered the repercussions of their actions. Did KeSPA not realize that SC2 would eventually arrive to market? And i'm not trying to say kespa is trying to screw the international community, instead I was speculating on the terms of Gretech's rights (the initial question in my post) if it was international or just korea. As far as I know, Gretech via GOMtv offered me, as an English speaker, access to E-sports - it showed they cared about me just a little, and you know what? I appreciate that. Is it far fetched to speculate that Gretech would again do ME and all other speakers of the international language (American-English) this service? Maybe Husky or whoever will be hired instead having to resort to donations, that would be great. If Korea is going to hold the most developed talent in the sport, they should have learned to share their 'greatness' with the world, instead they turned inward and away from the very hand that fed them the damned game in the first place (hence xenophobic). You cited the NBA, and guess what? It was a big deal for the US and the world when the first Dream Team was sent out to the Olympics in 1992. Over the next 10 years from that time, the number of international players drafted into the NBA went up over 400% and it continues to rise. Was that coincidence? No, it was a concerted effort to bring the sport to the world itself; impediments were overturned to make the Dream Team real and it has payed off.
You ask where Blizzard was all these years in regards to IP, and I'm telling you right now they were there and waiting. Revenge is a dish best served cold. And the forecast is real fuckn bleak for KeSPA. Blizzard has known all along that SC1 is just the beginning. Before KeSPA can even finish their litigation over SC1:BW, that game will be a thing of the past. SC2 will assume the mantle of top RTS in Korea and elsewhere. The next crop of talented gamers will be playing SC2, not SC1, for very simple obvious reasons. We who are old enough for sentimentality and nostalgia will still appreciate SC1, and perhaps even consider it a superior game, but that has nothing at all to do with advancement in sport. No one in the NBA still wears Chuck Taylor's on the court.
In closing, fuck KeSPA cuz its gonna be a revolution!
Aside from my previous post earlier, I have some other thoughts to throw out there.
Consider this:
KeSPA is an opportunistic entity that helped stabilize the SC BW scene in order to create a profit for itself. Alternatively, Blizzard has an existing revenue stream that is thousands of times greater than the e-sports revenue stream today. This move by Blizzard is mathematically unlikely about money and more about creating the groundwork for a stable and reusable e-sports model. Look at the current pro-sports economic model and tell me that a central licensing authority isn't exactly what is needed to take the next steps forward. I don't believe being shortsighted helps in this situation -- yes, Kespa might get left behind and this could be disruptive to the scene on a short term basis. But let's be clear on one thing:
KeSPA is not E-sports.
KeSPA exists because of E-sports.
The reason that SCBW and E-sport in general thrive in SK is because of fan loyalty, marketability and companies willingness to invest marketing dollars into it. I would even argue that a central broadcast authority would help consolidate weaker segments of the scene and make them sponsor-able. Potential sponsors will be significantly more willing to invest in a tournament or league if they knew their marketing dollars were going to a concentrated audience versus a diluted audience due to market chaos/saturation. The positive side effect is that legitimate pro-gamers will be able to make a better-than-reasonable living playing since the money is more concentrated within a set of licensed leagues/teams/etc. The downside is that there will likely be less opportunity for the wanna-be players to compete at the pro level because of the focused set of tournaments and leagues.
U guys saying blizz is trying to kill SC1 are sounding really dumb...considering they've done nothing to try and stop ICCUP which lets you download the freaking SC client for free on their site without blizz getting a cent from it. If they cared about money that much they would've killed things like ICCUP a long time ago. Now on the other hand KeSPA has refused to negotiate in any form at all with Blizz and is now refusing to negotiate with Gretech...they're also seemingly on the path to try and stop SC2 from having any success at all in Korea. How do u expect Blizz to react to this honestly? I'm actually surprised that they're taking it as easy as they have been.
On June 09 2010 13:24 ZlaSHeR wrote: Stop bringing up Blizzard in THIS thread. It's not Blizzards fault that kespa wont deal wtih GOM. For gods sake theres a pattern here.
Blizzard and KeSPA can't get a deal, blizzard says kespa isn't being cooperative, kespa says nothing
Blizard and GOM CAN get a deal, relatively quickly, no pain, they both made a deal, no bad mouthing each other
Gom and KeSPA can't get a deal, GOM says kespa isn't being cooperative, kespa says nothing
KESPA ISN'T DOINT THEIR PAIR, they're acting like children who feel entitled and are trying to hold their ground. This is utterly ridiculous that people can imagine that kespa is ever so cooperative and gom and blizzard and just pulling the carrot a ltitle further from the donkey inch by inch.
You're missing an important point though (regarding SC1).
KeSPA represents the 12 teams, as well as the proleague, and both starleagues (as OGN and MBC are cooperating with it). GOM represents nobody. Of coures there won't be any pain for GOM to come to an agreement with Blizzard, as they are just going to act as license distributers for SC1 (and are thus just replacing Blizzard's role in the actual negotiations with the existing SC1 scene). Equating Blizzard's dealings with KeSPA vs Blizzards dealings with GOM regarding SC1 is meaningless, because currently GOM doesn't have anything to do with SC1, ergo they have nothing to lose, only to gain (fees from OGN/MBC/teams which will in turn trickle down back to Blizzard), so the initial agreement between GOM and Blizzard isn't really a negotiation, the negotiation is still between Blizzard (now replaced by GOM for the matter) and the teams, sponsors and broadcasting companies.
I'm sure KeSPA knows what its doing, and if it has decided to avoid direct negotiations then they likely have plans for when this matter reaches the korean courts. Blizzard is so hypocritical all of a sudden pretending to give a shit about SC1 now that SC2 (which in korea would represent a direct competition as a potential e-sport) is coming out, where as for the past decade they have enjoyed their aditional sales from korea and the attention sc1 got because it was developed as an e-sport.
On June 09 2010 13:48 LuDwig- wrote: OK in three words: what the fuck? i thought that IP discussion was for SC2 not for BW.. They wake up after 10 years for IP? Does it makes any sence?
From what I understand the whole thing started three years ago when Kespa sold the broadcasting rights to Brood War. Perhaps Blizzard didn't want to get involved but then they saw Kespa going for the money grab and felt like enough was enough.
but in the case of Starcraft it's crystal clear, Blizzard invented it, they perfected and balanced it over many years, they own it
Its painfully clear you have no idea what has happened in Starcraft over the years. SC:BW became a phenomenon that Blizzard could never have predicted ahead-of-time. The way strategy has progressed, the subtle techniques used, and the overall evolution of how to play BW "properly" came about solely because of a large faithful playerbase who continued to work and fine-tune it. If you were active in the scene when SC1 first hit the shelves, you would know that today's BW isn't "Blizzard's game". Its a player-created franchise that became popular because of us. Those "adjustments" they made and all the patches they put out were because we figured out certain things needed tweaking. If we didn't exist, game patches wouldn't exist, and the game would fail. Stop treating the creating party like they're a God for making the original and its not about us for making it what it is today.
KeSPA is not E-sports.
KeSPA exists because of E-sports.
This is correct although the shortsightedness of people who follow this as a truth is nauseating. Basically it'd be like getting rid of the NBA and expecting Basketball to continue because ESPN was given sole broadcasting rights. If you can't see that simple analogy, there's no talking to you.
That being said, I restate my previous post. Both parties are equally stubborn and its costing us, the players, our beloved E-Sports franchise. If you take a particular side, it just means you're dumb enough not to be able to see the other side. From a third-person perspective, both of them need to just hug it out and stop fighting over who gets to use the new toy.
On June 09 2010 13:36 JustAnotherKnave wrote: OK, so KeSPA gives Blizzard/Gom the finger a number of years back and they are just supposed to be cool with that? Yeah right; they may have won the battle but i'll be damned if Blizzard ends up losing the war. KeSPA should have considered the repercussions of their actions. Did KeSPA not realize that SC2 would eventually arrive to market?
When you invest money to create a league, create teams, pay players' salaries, create facilities for broadcasting, create 2 24/7 channels almost exclusively for the purpose of broadcasting these leagues and the content you created and then a company comes along 10 years later and demands all the rights to everything you created with the money and effort you invested, you'd probably give them the finger too regardless of whatever repercussions you may face.
On June 09 2010 13:36 JustAnotherKnave wrote: And i'm not trying to say kespa is trying to screw the international community, instead I was speculating on the terms of Gretech's rights (the initial question in my post) if it was international or just korea. As far as I know, Gretech via GOMtv offered me, as an English speaker, access to E-sports - it showed they cared about me just a little, and you know what? I appreciate that. Is it far fetched to speculate that Gretech would again do ME and all other speakers of the international language (American-English) this service? Maybe Husky or whoever will be hired instead having to resort to donations, that would be great.
I don't feel this kind of bias should have any place here. We're talking about a Korean league. If you feel that one of the greatest eSports scenes in the world should die just because you want an English caster, that's pretty selfish... I think it'd be great to have every broadcast all around the world in every language, but that's just not realistic nor is it something that you should expect. Korean players and corporations worked hard to create their scene. It's not their fault that the players in the USA or other countries didn't do what they did to create a scene for themselves.
On June 09 2010 13:36 JustAnotherKnave wrote: If Korea is going to hold the most developed talent in the sport, they should have learned to share their 'greatness' with the world, instead they turned inward and away from the very hand that fed them the damned game in the first place (hence xenophobic).
You cited the NBA, and guess what? It was a big deal for the US and the world when the first Dream Team was sent out to the Olympics in 1992. Over the next 10 years from that time, the number of international players drafted into the NBA went up over 400% and it continues to rise. Was that coincidence? No, it was a concerted effort to bring the sport to the world itself; impediments were overturned to make the Dream Team real and it has payed off.
South Korea regularly participates in the WCG and pro-gamers from KeSPA have made regular appearances internationally at eSports events over the years including BlizzCon. I don't get where you're getting this idea that South Korea is xenophobic or whatever. Foreign players have even taken part in South Korean tournaments and they tend to be pretty popular too. My point was not that the NBA didn't send anyone to an international event. My point is that they're not going to start adding Japanese commentators or things like that and you wouldn't logically expect them to because Japan is not their target audience.
On June 09 2010 13:36 JustAnotherKnave wrote: You ask where Blizzard was all these years in regards to IP, and I'm telling you right now they were there and waiting. Revenge is a dish best served cold. And the forecast is real fuckn bleak for KeSPA.
What was there for Blizzard to get revenge on KeSPA for between 1999 and 2007? Nothing. Blizzard did nothing to protect their IP rights all that time so I don't know what you're talking about with the "revenge is a dish best served cold" thing. The conflict between Blizzard and KeSPA only began in recent years. Before that, Blizzard still did nothing for nearly a decade.
On June 09 2010 13:36 JustAnotherKnave wrote: Blizzard has known all along that SC1 is just the beginning. Before KeSPA can even finish their litigation over SC1:BW, that game will be a thing of the past. SC2 will assume the mantle of top RTS in Korea and elsewhere. The next crop of talented gamers will be playing SC2, not SC1, for very simple obvious reasons. We who are old enough for sentimentality and nostalgia will still appreciate SC1, and perhaps even consider it a superior game, but that has nothing at all to do with advancement in sport. No one in the NBA still wears Chuck Taylor's on the court.
In closing, fuck KeSPA cuz its gonna be a revolution!
I think you're either delusional or misinformed. Blizzard had absolutely no idea when they released SC1 how large it would become. I don't know where on earth you would get this idea. While I don't doubt that the next crop of talented gamers will certainly be playing Starcraft 2, I think you're vastly overestimating Starcraft 2's ability to succeed as a serious eSport in Korea, especially without KeSPA. It will take years for Starcraft 2 to reach Brood War assuming that it even can. KeSPA will most likely continue to broadcast Brood War while litigation is pending so it's not as if there will be some sort of blackout period for Brood War either. Despite all this, Starcraft 2's primary handicap of advancing of an eSport will be the very fact that Blizzard will be in complete control of it. Blizzard has never shown an ability to manage serious competition and I highly doubt they will do so here. And unfortunately, their partner, Gretech, has crap for resources compared to KeSPA and I don't know how many companies will be willing to offer players contracts or sponsor them knowing full well that they will get little to nothing out of doing so since Blizzard will own all the content and all of the player contracts... There just doesn't seem to be much incentive there.
If starcraft is a "player-created" franchise then why doesn't the community move on to another RTS which wasn't made by such an evil corporation such as Blizzard. Probably because Starcraft IS by far the greatest RTS ever made and nothing else even comes close....the community support has been huge that's true, but it has been that way because the game itself is so good. Why do you think games like C&C don't last one year, much less 12? Because they suck
On June 09 2010 07:20 Chef wrote: Thanks for this.
“In order to prevent E-SPORTS fans from suffering losses by having leagues shutdown by force, we are doing our best to start negotiations as soon as possible, but kespa and the broadcasting channels have not given us a response, which is very frustrating.”
Honestly, I think this is exactly what should happen. They should try to shut down the individual leagues, and then have the law shoved in their faces when they realise they don't have any right to do so. Sorry, Blizzard, but you can't make up the rules. I don't there's any real law that protects their game from being used in broadcasts, and it doesn't exactly look good that they're 8 years too late.
Even if SC:BW ends because of this, and Blizzard really does have the law on their side, I think that's dying with honour. If these are the last days of BroodWar, I will watch as many games as I can. I'm not going to watch any e-sports run by the ungrateful company Blizzard has become. The word sport can't even be applied to such a ridiculous venture.
To clarify my feelings: I think if only on a matter of principle, KeSPA should not negotiate under these circumstances. Blizzard wants control of an organization they didn't help at all, but that helped them lots. Blizzard is the ultimate brat.
This is the best thing I've yet read about this issue. You sir have summed up my feelings perfectly.
On June 09 2010 14:00 Diminotoor wrote: This is correct although the shortsightedness of people who follow this as a truth is nauseating. Basically it'd be like getting rid of the NBA and expecting Basketball to continue because ESPN was given sole broadcasting rights. If you can't see that simple analogy, there's no talking to you.
Understanding your analogy and agreeing with are not the same. I said previously that there are far too many analogies being used that just don't equate. I am not going to try to re-shape your inappropriate analogy or find any relevance in it. It is just easier to talk in facts and stay away from opinion.
I dig what you are saying, but I believe that legally owned intellectual property rights should prevail here. KeSPA nor Blizzard are our friends. they are slaves to money, this is manifested in indirect and direct actions. I prefer Blizzard to win out here for the following reasons:
They are a global entity and have the bank and ability to push the scene beyond Korean boundaries.
They are legally in the right here. They created the game and protected their interests via EULAs.
KeSPA had no legal authority to license something they did not _fully_ own. They are morally and legally in the lurch. They have the rights to the commentary their employees create when broadcasting, but the game-itself, the animations, the sounds, cut-scenes, and everything therein is owned by blizzard. They are no better than the bootleg vendors selling warez off the high street.
There is room for conversation from a moral, PR and general customer interests perspective to say that Blizzard could go about this in a different way. But that's not the conversation that KeSPA and Blizzard need to have. Gretech recognized this and did the sensible thing.
On June 09 2010 14:08 antelope591 wrote: If starcraft is a "player-created" franchise then why doesn't the community move on to another RTS which wasn't made by such an evil corporation such as Blizzard. Probably because Starcraft IS by far the greatest RTS ever made and nothing else even comes close....the community support has been huge that's true, but it has been that way because the game itself is so good. Why do you think games like C&C don't last one year, much less 12? Because they suck
While I will admit that Starcraft is a good game, what makes it a great eSport is the players, not the game itself. When you watch Flash vs. JD, are you sitting there watching the Marines and Lurkers or what each player does with them? Starcraft by itself is simply a suitable platform on which to create a spectator sport.
Also, keep in mind that the vast majority of people have actually moved onto other games. Outside of Korea, Starcraft is actually pretty small despite its respected name.
On June 09 2010 14:16 riboflavin wrote: They are a global entity and have the bank and ability to push the scene beyond Korean boundaries.
Samsung alone dwarfs Blizzard in just about every field from finances to global influence...
On June 09 2010 14:16 riboflavin wrote: They are legally in the right here. They created the game and protected their interests via EULAs.
IP laws aren't the same across the globe.
On June 09 2010 14:16 riboflavin wrote: KeSPA had no legal authority to license something they did not _fully_ own. They are morally and legally in the lurch. They have the rights to the commentary their employees create when broadcasting, but the game-itself, the animations, the sounds, cut-scenes, and everything therein is owned by blizzard. They are no better than the bootleg vendors selling warez off the high street.
Technically they didn't sell the license to broadcast Starcraft. They sold the license to broadcast the players under contract to KeSPA playing. In Korea, you can broadcast Starcraft as long as you buy a legitimate copy of it. This was never the issue in the KeSPA vs. OGN/MBC thing.
On June 09 2010 14:16 riboflavin wrote: There is room for conversation from a moral, PR and general customer interests perspective to say that Blizzard could go about this in a different way. But that's not the conversation that KeSPA and Blizzard need to have. Gretech recognized this and did the sensible thing.
Gretech had nothing to lose and everything to gain whereas KeSPA had nothing to gain and everything to lose. Are you seriously comparing the two as if they were coming from the same situation?
On June 09 2010 14:08 antelope591 wrote: If starcraft is a "player-created" franchise then why doesn't the community move on to another RTS which wasn't made by such an evil corporation such as Blizzard. Probably because Starcraft IS by far the greatest RTS ever made and nothing else even comes close....the community support has been huge that's true, but it has been that way because the game itself is so good.
If everyone followed this retarded logic, the world of sports wouldn't exist and I have my doubts that the world as it stands would exist. If something is imbalanced, unjust, or just plain old "wrong", you don't jump ship, you fix the problem so you can preserve something that you felt worked. Once again, I restate that BOTH PARTIES ARE EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS and its just very unfortunate that our futures hinge on what these two morons decide.
On June 09 2010 14:08 antelope591 wrote: If starcraft is a "player-created" franchise then why doesn't the community move on to another RTS which wasn't made by such an evil corporation such as Blizzard. Probably because Starcraft IS by far the greatest RTS ever made and nothing else even comes close....the community support has been huge that's true, but it has been that way because the game itself is so good. Why do you think games like C&C don't last one year, much less 12? Because they suck
While I will admit that Starcraft is a good game, what makes it a great eSport is the players, not the game itself. When you watch Flash vs. JD, are you sitting there watching the Marines and Lurkers or what each player does with them? Starcraft by itself is simply a suitable platform on which to create a spectator sport.
Also, keep in mind that the vast majority of people have actually moved onto other games. Outside of Korea, Starcraft is actually pretty small despite its respected name.
The argument that the players make the game doesn't work for me in this case for the simple fact that Blizzard is the ONLY company who's ever made RTS which can be played at an "esport" level. You have to ask, why did all the pros choose Starcraft or on a lesser scale Warcraft 3 over CoH or C&C? When Blizz has no competition at all in their field can u blame them for wanting a better piece of the pie?
On June 09 2010 13:18 Ighox wrote: But if KeSPA wasn't allowed to operate leagues anymore and it was enforced, do you think there still would be a KeSPA and would the contracts still be valid? Do you even think the people that make up KeSPA would want to do nothing? The way I see it if KeSPA refuses to negotiate with Gretech they are just counting on taking it to korean court and winning, that's like their only chance other than negotiating and if the case is lost they are permanently fucked so I'd assume KeSPA as an organization would just be dissolved and the teams/sponsors eventually getting involved with Gretech because they would still want money. (?)
I think you're forgetting who KeSPA actually is. KeSPA is comprised of the progaming teams themselves and the corporations that sponsor them. So yes, they would continue to exist even if they weren't allowed to operate the leagues anymore and the contracts in question would still be valid since they are probably directly with the sponsoring corporations and not contingent on whether or not KeSPA leagues actually exist. If the teams and sponsors had any desire at all to be involved with Gretech, this would not even be an issue because that would mean KeSPA wants to be involved with Gretech. Right now, the issue is that the teams and sponsors (AKA: KeSPA) want control of their league and broadcasting rights to their players playing. Blizzard doesn't want the teams and sponsors to control the leagues or to have any rights to the content created by the players under contract with the said teams as well as control over all the players' contracts. This is what created the friction in the first place.
I realize who they are, but I mean, if KeSPA wasn't allowed to operate leagues anymore and the contracts for the teams prevented the teams from being in leagues that has connections to Gretech (any future league), why would they then still be KeSPA or why would KeSPA still feel those contracts were awesome and not just agree to nuke those contracts? Wouldn't that be the better option for every entity involved in KeSPA ? When it really comes down to it and at the point they can't broadcast anymore, when they've lost, I don't really see how they could continue to exist and still consider their contracts valid? I think it just comes down to ego's though, but when it comes down to it I think KeSPA would choose Gretech rather than death, it's just that they think they have a reasonable fighting chance right now and might still get the full IP rights. (I pretty much see that as impossible though at this point but I'm not a lawyer.) And I gotta say, all this shit is pretty confusing, fucking politics
I wanted to post something like that but you said it way better than I could.
Something to add though. The banning of public broadcasting of their game (assuming they do use that argument) also means that youtube will most likely pull all blizzard game videos not endorsed by Blizzard. Amateur casting will also be quite difficult as well.
There's so many things that could go wrong here and the only way it can be fixed is by creating new contracts/EULAs that specifically state differences between commercial and non-commercial broadcasting. Also lots of foresight will be required since we really have no idea how these restrictions could conflict with future interest both for Blizzard and for consumers.
you bring up a very interesting point. if blizzard controlled kespa, would violetak, nevake and jon747 vids all be taken down due to copyright infringement?
if they ever did that....... the rage...
im worried. i enjoy the korean scene immensely. dont take thsi away from the fans!!! blizzard, stop kowtowing to activision and give in for the fans!
Well actually It has everything to do with SC2 and not SC, why is Blizzard so hard in the negotiations? because they want total control of SC2, they care about the milk cow that is SC? not, they care about the "star" they have been developing : SC2, I presume Blizzard is sure about SC2 being a game that could be compared in short time with SC and replace it right there. For me, Blizzard should be focusing all the resources making a better game and interface, and not trying to get the control in the only country that has e-sports (without any care of Blizzard ), because right now SC2 for the casual gamer and watcher, is boring as hell.
On June 09 2010 14:23 Ighox wrote: I realize who they are, but I mean, if KeSPA wasn't allowed to operate leagues anymore and the contracts for the teams prevented the teams from being in leagues that has connections to Gretech (any future league), why would they then still be KeSPA or why would KeSPA still feel those contracts were awesome and not just agree to nuke those contracts? Wouldn't that be the better option for every entity involved in KeSPA ?
Why would they logically help the corporation that just destroyed their business when they have nothing to gain from it? Not having players and teams participate would bring Gretech to their knees if they tried to create a Brood War league or tournament.
On June 09 2010 14:23 Ighox wrote: When it really comes down to it and at the point they can't broadcast anymore, when they've lost, I don't really see how they could continue to exist and still consider their contracts valid?
The players aren't contracted to the entity known as KeSPA. They are individually under contract to the respecting corporations that own the pro-gaming teams. Even if KeSPA was to dissolve, these corporations would still continue to exist so the contracts would still be valid. In the event that KeSPA did end up dissolving over this, I highly doubt these corporations would suddenly be cooperative to the side that just came in and stole their business.
On June 09 2010 14:23 Ighox wrote: I think it just comes down to ego's though, but when it comes down to it I think KeSPA would choose Gretech rather than death, it's just that they think they have a reasonable fighting chance right now and might still get the full IP rights. (I pretty much see that as impossible though at this point but I'm not a lawyer.) And I gotta say, all this shit is pretty confusing, fucking politics
In the end, it all comes down to the issue of money. Each of the KeSPA corporations are successful companies in their own right and can afford not to be involved in eSports if it isn't profitable or if it becomes too much of a hassle. Obviously we don't know the details between Gretech and KeSPA in terms of demands, but since Gretech pretty much replaces Blizzard in the negotiations, I would imagine their demands would not be far off from what Blizzard was demanding when they were negotiating directly with KeSPA. We're pretty much talking all-access, total control here. Blizzard is pretty much asking these companies to pay for everything while in the end owning nothing that grows out of the money they risked by investing. That's just not a smart investment no matter how you look at it...
If KeSPA and Blizzard/Gretech cannot reach an agreement here and if for some reason, the courts side with Blizzard/Gretech (which would surprise me) then that will pretty much be the end of Brood War and you'll hear celebration over at Blizzard HQ.
Kespa going to the mattresses on this huh. I guess they are planning on leting GOM sue them, and fighting it out in court. With Kespa having goverment backing this has to make you think for a minute. Why has Kespa always been so confident that can give Blizzard and GOM the bird and face no repercussions? Maybe they know something we don't. Like the courts won't let them lose?
Its that or Kespa just does not know when its beaten. Corporations think with there wallet, not there ego. So I'm not buying that they are cuting there nose to spite there face.
On June 09 2010 14:40 InToTheWannaB wrote: Kespa going to the mattresses on this huh. I guess they are planning on leting GOM sue them, and fighting it out in court. With Kespa having Goverment backing this has to make you think for a minute. Why has Kespa always been so confident that can give Blizzard and GOM the bird and face no repercussions? Maybe they know something we don't. Like the courts won't let them lose?
Its that or Kespa just does not know when its beaten. Business think with there wallet not there ego. So I'm not buying that they are cuting there nose to spite there face.
If you look at KeSPA's options, it makes sense. If KeSPA agrees to a deal, they essentially lose the rights to everything they've created through their investment of resources. If they don't agree to a deal, they will either lose everything they created or they have a chance of keeping everything just as it is right now with themselves in control of their investment. Who here wouldn't take the second option in this case?
While I wouldn't go so far as to say that KeSPA can control the courts, the corporations that comprise KeSPA certainly do have a measurable amount of political influence, much more so than Gretech and Blizzard. Although I don't discount this as a factor in their decision, I think it's probably a lot more about the "Everything to lose and nothing to gain." aspect that's keeping them from agreeing to anything. If Blizzard/Gretech just asked for some of the money and didn't butt themselves into controlling contracts, content, etc. I don't think there'd be much of an issue here.
On June 09 2010 14:40 InToTheWannaB wrote: Kespa going to the mattresses on this huh. I guess they are planning on leting GOM sue them, and fighting it out in court. With Kespa having goverment backing this has to make you think for a minute. Why has Kespa always been so confident that can give Blizzard and GOM the bird and face no repercussions? Maybe they know something we don't. Like the courts won't let them lose?
Its that or Kespa just does not know when its beaten. Corporations think with there wallet, not there ego. So I'm not buying that they are cuting there nose to spite there face.
Or its simply that GOM's (aka proxy Blizzard's) demands are still unreasonable, like wanting full control over contracts, the ability to shut down leagues as they wish, auditing all of KeSPA's finances, having the ability to demand players participate in international leagues over regular leagues, etc, that the sponsors feel that they are better off going to court over this (and in the worst case not sponsoring altogether) instead of investing money and not being able to be in charge of what is done with it.
I remember when I used to be excited for Starcraft 2. All I think about now is how much it's going to cost me and how much it's ruining SC:BW. I doubt I'll even buy the game at this point, I can remember the last good thought I had regarding Blizzard.
On June 09 2010 14:40 InToTheWannaB wrote: Kespa going to the mattresses on this huh. I guess they are planning on leting GOM sue them, and fighting it out in court. With Kespa having Goverment backing this has to make you think for a minute. Why has Kespa always been so confident that can give Blizzard and GOM the bird and face no repercussions? Maybe they know something we don't. Like the courts won't let them lose?
Its that or Kespa just does not know when its beaten. Business think with there wallet not there ego. So I'm not buying that they are cuting there nose to spite there face.
If you look at KeSPA's options, it makes sense. If KeSPA agrees to a deal, they essentially lose the rights to everything they've created through their investment of resources. If they don't agree to a deal, they will either lose everything they created or they have a chance of keeping everything just as it is right now with themselves in control of their investment. Who here wouldn't take the second option in this case?
While I wouldn't go so far as to say that KeSPA can control the courts, the corporations that comprise KeSPA certainly do have a measurable amount of political influence, much more so than Gretech and Blizzard. Although I don't discount this as a factor in their decision, I think it's probably a lot more about the "Everything to lose and nothing to gain." aspect that's keeping them from agreeing to anything. If Blizzard/Gretech just asked for some of the money and didn't butt themselves into controlling contracts, content, etc. I don't think there'd be much of an issue here.
No, going to court is a HUGE risk for kespa IMHO. If they just strike a deal with GOM. They survive and live to fight another day. Sure it maybe in a diminished capacity, but In 3 years time if they made nice with blizzard. Maybe they get another shot at the broadcasting rights. If they decide to go all the way with this and lose. They are never going to get a deal done again with Blizzard or GOM.
This shit makes no sense from a business stand point as far as I can tell. The safe thing for Kespa to do would be to sign with GOM and reevaluate after 3 years.
On June 09 2010 14:23 Ighox wrote: I realize who they are, but I mean, if KeSPA wasn't allowed to operate leagues anymore and the contracts for the teams prevented the teams from being in leagues that has connections to Gretech (any future league), why would they then still be KeSPA or why would KeSPA still feel those contracts were awesome and not just agree to nuke those contracts? Wouldn't that be the better option for every entity involved in KeSPA ?
Why would they logically help the corporation that just destroyed their business when they have nothing to gain from it? Not having players and teams participate would bring Gretech to their knees if they tried to create a Brood War league or tournament.
Because there's still a lot of money involved and to say no to that would simply be bad business.
The players aren't contracted to the entity known as KeSPA. They are individually under contract to the respecting corporations that own the pro-gaming teams. Even if KeSPA was to dissolve, these corporations would still continue to exist so the contracts would still be valid. In the event that KeSPA did end up dissolving over this, I highly doubt these corporations would suddenly be cooperative to the side that just came in and stole their business.
Morally, yes I agree why would they do that, but the corporations that owns the teams doesn't have teams just because it's fun, "for the fans" or whatever, they do it for money, advertising, etc. and they would still achieve that with Gretech, they just wouldn't have the ability to dictate the terms all the time but it would still be 'free money'. So either get that with Gretech or lose out on all of it? I don't know, it just seems like your statements are too much about moral when everything in this case pretty much only boils down to money. (yes, KeSPA says they do it for the fans, and blizzard says they feel violated or whatever, but anyone can see that it's just about money.) And I don't see that many people in the real world turning down money over a "moral issue", and especially not the MAJOR corporations. I think that both are 'evil', coming to a conclusion about the lesser of the two evils would be hard because both have several positive possible outcomes and several negative possible outcomes. But I don't think it will matter much who wins, I think the market for esports in korea is big enough to continue without KeSPA at the reins.
On June 09 2010 14:40 InToTheWannaB wrote: Kespa going to the mattresses on this huh. I guess they are planning on leting GOM sue them, and fighting it out in court. With Kespa having goverment backing this has to make you think for a minute. Why has Kespa always been so confident that can give Blizzard and GOM the bird and face no repercussions? Maybe they know something we don't. Like the courts won't let them lose?
Its that or Kespa just does not know when its beaten. Corporations think with there wallet, not there ego. So I'm not buying that they are cuting there nose to spite there face.
It could be simply that it's not worth being a part of ESPORTS involvement under blizzard/GOM conditions.
Keeping in mind Kespa and it's organisations pay for pretty much 100% of all infrastructure that that underpins ESPORTS in Korea. All the player's salaries, and their practice houses: Kespa companies, all the broadcasts and the venues to hold proleague/Starleagues: Kespa or Kespa companies, all the infrastructure to do progamer licensing, courage, all the stuff going in the background to make proleague work: Kespa.
If I was Kespa, and Blizzard/GOM suddenly wanted almost full control of the ESPORTS scene in Korea and wanted me to continue to pay for everything. Then I wouldn't be dignifying their 'offer' with a response either.
While what they are doing might not be in the best interests of current fans as both sides are claiming. It is pretty unrealistic for Kespa to bow to these demands, in this case it would be logical for Kespa to choose death as an entity over meeting these demands, that way it's constituent organisations aren't continuing to pay for for an ESPORTS scene they have no control over afterwards.
On June 09 2010 14:40 InToTheWannaB wrote: Kespa going to the mattresses on this huh. I guess they are planning on leting GOM sue them, and fighting it out in court. With Kespa having goverment backing this has to make you think for a minute. Why has Kespa always been so confident that can give Blizzard and GOM the bird and face no repercussions? Maybe they know something we don't. Like the courts won't let them lose?
Its that or Kespa just does not know when its beaten. Corporations think with there wallet, not there ego. So I'm not buying that they are cuting there nose to spite there face.
It could be simply that it's not worth being a part of ESPORTS involvement under blizzard/GOM conditions.
Keeping in mind Kespa and it's organisations pay for pretty much 100% of all infrastructure that that underpins ESPORTS in Korea. All the player's salaries, and their practice houses: Kespa companies, all the broadcasts and the venues to hold proleague/Starleagues: Kespa or Kespa companies, all the infrastructure to do progamer licensing, courage, all the stuff going in the background to make proleague work: Kespa.
If I was Kespa, and Blizzard/GOM suddenly wanted almost full control of the ESPORTS scene in Korea and wanted me to continue to pay for everything. Then I wouldn't be dignifying their 'offer' with a response either.
While what they are doing might not be in the best interests of current fans as both sides are claiming. It is pretty unrealistic for Kespa to bow to these demands, in this case it would be logical for Kespa to choose death as an entity over meeting these demands, that way it's constituent organisations aren't continuing to pay for for an ESPORTS scene they have no control over afterwards.
Yeah i guess that could be true, but I find it pretty hard to believe that Blizzard or GOMs demands would be so large that they leave no room for profit for Kespa.
On June 09 2010 15:21 InToTheWannaB wrote: Yeah i guess that could be true, but I find it pretty hard to believe that Blizzard or GOMs demands would be so large that they leave no room for profit for Kespa.
Ordinarily I'd agree, but this smacks of Blizzard just wanting to hijack a competitive ESPORTS scene they can use as a platform for sc2 esports. I doubt they actually care whether or not BW dies.
Why bother building a scene from scratch when you can try to just take over an existing scene? Especially since the collateral damage of this move is basically irrelevant to you, whether or not BW dies is hardly going to affect Activision Blizzards bottom line.
The main reason why these 'negotiations' are in deadlock imo is just that they are working at cross purposes, and neither particularly need the other for their purposes.
Blizzard wants control of the ESPORTS scene, whether or not SC:BW survives this transition is irrelevant to them, and consequently whether or not Kespa survives this transition is also irrelevant to them so long as they end up with control.
Kespa also wants control of the ESPORTS scene, since they are basically paying for it. They just want Blizzard to GTFO, they are probably willing to pay a little for Blizzard to go away (eg licensing fees), but given Blizzard probably cares little for the money and only wants the control which Kespa will be unwilling to give up, I don't see this going well without court involvement over exactly how far Blizzard's IP rights extend.
On June 09 2010 15:13 professorjoak wrote: Oh, look, the grace period ends just in time to send all the unpaid B-team kids back to school. *Ba-dum-TISH!*
I know you aren't serious but guess what, they don't want to go back? It's not like they get forced to become b-teamers .
Does anyone know if there's any reliable articles or reports on what exactly is going on? I don't mean what either side is saying, I'm wondering if the details of what is being asked of each side in these negotiations is public in any form. If so, we can lay a lot of this opinion-battle to rest but right now we're assuming things that are making us sound dumb.
If you side with kespa, a lot of you are assuming that activision-blizzard is the evil corporation making the demand of total control and total profit and allowing kespa to simply exist but no longer with any power or control. Another satellite company for the conglomerate basically. Also you're assuming that the IP rights don't apply overseas.
If you side with activision-blizzard, a lot of you are assuming that the demands are reasonable and kespa is just a greedy corporation that wants to keep everything for itself and isn't respecting IP rights without regarding that this case is in fact taking place under korean law. Not USA law.
Do you see what I'm getting at here? Its like politics which, I dunno about the rest of you, is the LAST thing I want in my gaming scene. Politics suck ass and cause a lot of headache and stress. Isn't that what games are supposed to be for? To ELIMINATE or REDUCE those things? If there's a source out there that has some hard factual evidence to let us know what's being asked of either side, one side's arguments would completely crumble. Until then, its just blind assumption-based opinions being thrown out there from both sides.
Oh Blizzard how stupid you've been throughout the entire affair. By showing some leniency and letting Kespa do their thing you could have gotten the best possible starting position for SC2. Free advertising a vibrant e-sports community and much more. Instead you've created a situation where Kespa will fight hard to keep SC2 from becoming an e-sports. Remember that you didn't write all those nasty things in your EULA for SC1, meaning it will be hard to bully Kespa there.
Even if you win in the end you are getting the bad end of the deal.
On June 09 2010 15:13 professorjoak wrote: Oh, look, the grace period ends just in time to send all the unpaid B-team kids back to school. *Ba-dum-TISH!*
I know you aren't serious but guess what, they don't want to go back? It's not like they get forced to become b-teamers .
Maybe not, but they should be at school.
Kespa should make players able to turn from amateur to pro at 19 korean age, and not before that. That way they could at least complete high school and not be total retards. I suspect this would enhance the quality of the shows as well.
Everyone is missing the central issue. Blizzard is NOT NOT NOT trying to kill BW. They are trying to stake a place for SC2.
Think of this as a legal precedent. KeSPA would have an excellent case to broadcast SC2 without any input from Blizzard if Blizzard never challenged them on BW. By challenging KeSPA now, they assure themselves a place at the table when SC2 eSports forms.
Everyone who thinks Blizzard wants to kill BW, read this: If Blizzard wanted to kill BW, it wouldn't have made a deal with GOM. Blizzard would actually have a easier case by just trying to shut the whole scene down for IP violations. Instead, they're trying to preserve the scene while creating a place for themselves.
Make no mistake: Blizzard controls the future. SC2's EULA will almost certainly prohibit broadcasting for profit without their consent and without LAN, Blizzard can control the Korean servers and prevent those who violate that EULA from playing games. But instead of using an iron fist to smash the scene (even thought they are legally in the clear), they're offering a hand and trying to preserve the scene.
Why not just delay your SC2 order to August and see what will happen ? If E-sport is to be brought down by Blzzard you guys can always cancel your SC2 orders. I'm sure if everyone do that Blizzard won't dare to shut down e-sport anymore.
On June 09 2010 14:17 JinMaikeul wrote: IP laws aren't the same across the globe.
I'm sure blizzard researched the laws in korea before starting all these shenanigans.
But questioning and marginalizing facts without stating any evidence is what makes a good counter-point post. The objective of those who are not on moral or ethical high ground is often to evade the facts and instead reduce them to pointed rhetorical questions, such as, 'are you really that stupid?'.
Meh. I really don't care as much as my posts seem to indicate.
Blizzard doesn't need anyones broadcast money. Protection of IP and control of product image is so much more important that the tiny amount of money (when compare to their revenue stream) they might collect.
Players should unionize away from KeSPA and sell their services to the company who purchased the broadcast rights.
On June 09 2010 14:17 JinMaikeul wrote: IP laws aren't the same across the globe.
I'm sure blizzard researched the laws in korea before starting all these shenanigans.
But question facts without stating any material evidence is what makes a good post. The object of those who are not on moral or ethical high ground is to evade the facts and instead reduce them to pointed rhetorical questions, such as, ' are you really that stupid?'.
I'll stick with the facts.
Blizzard doesn't need anyones broadcast money. Protection of IP and control of product image is so much more important that the tiny amount of money (when compare to their revenue stream) they might collect.
Players should unionize away from KeSPA and sell their services to the company who purchased the broadcast rights.
That's actually an excellent idea. I don't know the history of unions in Korea, but the players are the ones who stand to lose the most in this situation. If they unionize, they can not only secure their own future, but can also bargain for better wages and living conditions.
Of course, the ultimate problem will be that for every programmer there is, there are thousands of b-teamers or aspiring gamers to take their place. They'll have to prove how loyal and numerous their fan bases are (and therefore how many more viewers there would be) for this to work.
Man, this is really starting to look like politics in Belgium if you know what I mean.
I sincerely hope they start some serious discussions. The worst case scenario seems to be one in which nobody comes out ahead. Blizzard would make money but gains a bad reputation at the same time. I'm still reasonably optimistic though. Before the GOM deal, Kespa and Blizzard both seemed to be holding big hands with nobody wanting to cave. Now Blizzard seems to be holding just one more ace...
On June 09 2010 16:17 Drunken Argument wrote: Everyone is missing the central issue. Blizzard is NOT NOT NOT trying to kill BW. They are trying to stake a place for SC2.
Think of this as a legal precedent. KeSPA would have an excellent case to broadcast SC2 without any input from Blizzard if Blizzard never challenged them on BW. By challenging KeSPA now, they assure themselves a place at the table when SC2 eSports forms.
Everyone who thinks Blizzard wants to kill BW, read this: If Blizzard wanted to kill BW, it wouldn't have made a deal with GOM. Blizzard would actually have a easier case by just trying to shut the whole scene down for IP violations. Instead, they're trying to preserve the scene while creating a place for themselves.
Make no mistake: Blizzard controls the future. SC2's EULA will almost certainly prohibit broadcasting for profit without their consent and without LAN, Blizzard can control the Korean servers and prevent those who violate that EULA from playing games. But instead of using an iron fist to smash the scene (even thought they are legally in the clear), they're offering a hand and trying to preserve the scene.
I don't think I'm missing it at all. It is THE issue that is the root of this whole farce.
It's not that Blizzard is trying to kill BW, they just don't care if it dies. What they want is to stake a place for SC2, you are exactly right.
The problem comes, when they easiest method for Blizzard to achieve this end is to simply push Kespa out while keeping the ESPORTS scene alive, that is the fans and the attention, but not necessarily the infrastructure as they already know what needs to be paid for(courtesy of Kespa having done it for this long) and they can simply pay for it themselves. With the rapport and the publicity they can then easily add SC2 to the scene, and it will quickly replace BW, as the BW scene will be facing heavy resistance from the Kespa companies that are now very pissed with Blizzard.
If Kespa dies, so does professional SC:BW in it's current form. But not necessarily ESPORTS, and sadly this is the best case scenario for Blizzard. Blizzard taking over the position Kespa currently holds is the cheapest way for them to have the most infrastructure in the quickest time as a platform for SC2, the fact that BW will die in the process is probably a price Blizzard will (gladly) pay.
To stop Kespa from having a legitimate seat in SC2 discussion Blizzard simply needs to put it in their EULA, this, however does not leave Blizzard with much of an ESPORTS platform to work with. They would, with the help of GOM, need to essentially build an SC2 ESPORTS scene from scratch.
And thus we come to the crux of the problem. Blizzard is not the big bad evil company setting out to kill BW. They are merely trying their best to find a place for SC2 esports. They just don't care if it BW dies in the process of setting up SC2 esports. It just so happens their best case scenario atm kills BW.
I think it's unfair for to consider either side the big bully attempting to ruin things for everyone. Both sides are trying to further develop ESPORTS. It's just that Kespa has chosen SC:BW, and Blizzard has chosen SC2.
That aside, personally I couldn't give two hoots about whether an SC2 scene is successfully set up in the future, and I'd much prefer Kespa wins out. But I can certainly see where Blizzard is coming from.
On June 09 2010 16:17 Drunken Argument wrote: Everyone is missing the central issue. Blizzard is NOT NOT NOT trying to kill BW. They are trying to stake a place for SC2.
Think of this as a legal precedent. KeSPA would have an excellent case to broadcast SC2 without any input from Blizzard if Blizzard never challenged them on BW. By challenging KeSPA now, they assure themselves a place at the table when SC2 eSports forms.
Everyone who thinks Blizzard wants to kill BW, read this: If Blizzard wanted to kill BW, it wouldn't have made a deal with GOM. Blizzard would actually have a easier case by just trying to shut the whole scene down for IP violations. Instead, they're trying to preserve the scene while creating a place for themselves.
Make no mistake: Blizzard controls the future. SC2's EULA will almost certainly prohibit broadcasting for profit without their consent and without LAN, Blizzard can control the Korean servers and prevent those who violate that EULA from playing games. But instead of using an iron fist to smash the scene (even thought they are legally in the clear), they're offering a hand and trying to preserve the scene.
I don't think I'm missing it at all. It is THE issue that is the root of this whole farce.
It's not that Blizzard is trying to kill BW, they just don't care if it dies. What they want is is to stake a place for SC2, you are exactly right.
The problem comes, when they easiest method for Blizzard to achieve this end is to simply push Kespa out while keeping the ESPORTS scene alive, that is the fans and the attention, but not necessarily the infrastructure as they already know what needs to be paid for(courtesy of Kespa having done it for this long) and they can simply pay for it themselves.
If Kespa dies, so does professional SC:BW in it's current form. But not necessarily ESPORTS, and sadly this is the best case scenario for Blizzard. Blizzard taking over the position Kespa currently holds is the cheapest way for them to have the most infrastructure in the quickest time as a platform for SC2, the fact that BW will die in the process is probably a price Blizzard will (gladly) pay.
To stop Kespa from having a legitimate seat in SC2 discussion Blizzard simply needs to put it in their EULA, this, however does not leave Blizzard with much of an ESPORTS platform to work with. They would, with the help of GOM, need to essentially build an SC2 ESPORTS scene from scratch.
And thus we come to the crux of the problem. Blizzard is not the big bad evil company setting out to kill BW. They are merely trying their best to find a place for SC2 esports. They just don't care if it BW dies in the process of setting up SC2 esports. It just so happens their best case scenario atm kills BW.
I think it's unfair for to consider either side the big bully attempting to ruin things for everyone. Both sides are trying to further develop ESPORTS. It's just that Kespa has chosen SC:BW, and Blizzard has chosen SC2.
That aside, personally I couldn't give two hoots about whether an SC2 scene is successfully set up in the future, and I'd much prefer Kespa wins out. But I can certainly see where Blizzard is coming from.
I think we both agree on Blizzard's role here and some of it's motivations. But I don't think Blizzard wants to replace KeSPA, or even push KeSPA out of the discussion. Blizzard is a software company. It doesn't want the headache of running the eSports scene. But in order for them to be involved in the eSports scene at all, they have to push on the IP rights issue.
Enter Gom. Gom sets itself up as the mediator between Blizzard and Korean eSports. By setting the contracts up through Gom, Blizzard keeps its stake but doesn't have to govern. And this is more of a guess, but I don't think Gom wants to be the new KeSPA either. They want KeSPA to eventually get on board and preserve the scene how it is, to police it and act as a unifiying body. Both of them are better off with KeSPA, and I honestly think that Gom and KeSPA could work out a deal.
Part of me doubts that KeSPA will give up much of the control it has without a court battle. But it is an all-in strategy- the new scene will be set up before the case finishes, and if KeSPA loses (and really think they will), they really won't have a seat at the table.
On June 09 2010 13:36 JustAnotherKnave wrote: OK, so KeSPA gives Blizzard/Gom the finger a number of years back and they are just supposed to be cool with that? Yeah right; they may have won the battle but i'll be damned if Blizzard ends up losing the war. KeSPA should have considered the repercussions of their actions. Did KeSPA not realize that SC2 would eventually arrive to market?
When you invest money to create a league, create teams, pay players' salaries, create facilities for broadcasting, create 2 24/7 channels almost exclusively for the purpose of broadcasting these leagues and the content you created and then a company comes along 10 years later and demands all the rights to everything you created with the money and effort you invested, you'd probably give them the finger too regardless of whatever repercussions you may face.
Yeah, and neither would I be surprised when I got fired. KeSPA is playing the prodigal son.
On June 09 2010 13:36 JustAnotherKnave wrote: And i'm not trying to say kespa is trying to screw the international community, instead I was speculating on the terms of Gretech's rights (the initial question in my post) if it was international or just korea. As far as I know, Gretech via GOMtv offered me, as an English speaker, access to E-sports - it showed they cared about me just a little, and you know what? I appreciate that. Is it far fetched to speculate that Gretech would again do ME and all other speakers of the international language (American-English) this service? Maybe Husky or whoever will be hired instead having to resort to donations, that would be great.
I don't feel this kind of bias should have any place here. We're talking about a Korean league. If you feel that one of the greatest eSports scenes in the world should die just because you want an English caster, that's pretty selfish... I think it'd be great to have every broadcast all around the world in every language, but that's just not realistic nor is it something that you should expect. Korean players and corporations worked hard to create their scene. It's not their fault that the players in the USA or other countries didn't do what they did to create a scene for themselves.
You don't? If I'm politicking my own interests here, deal with it. I also would politic for more and better broadcasting of soccer here in my favorite country (USA) and not feel any remorse whatsoever in who has to be pwnd to get it. I don't mind in the slightest that the best players are korean; i'm not a racist. But I still want their players, and right now its KeSPA that is not willing to cooperate.
On June 09 2010 13:36 JustAnotherKnave wrote: If Korea is going to hold the most developed talent in the sport, they should have learned to share their 'greatness' with the world, instead they turned inward and away from the very hand that fed them the damned game in the first place (hence xenophobic).
You cited the NBA, and guess what? It was a big deal for the US and the world when the first Dream Team was sent out to the Olympics in 1992. Over the next 10 years from that time, the number of international players drafted into the NBA went up over 400% and it continues to rise. Was that coincidence? No, it was a concerted effort to bring the sport to the world itself; impediments were overturned to make the Dream Team real and it has payed off.
South Korea regularly participates in the WCG and pro-gamers from KeSPA have made regular appearances internationally at eSports events over the years including BlizzCon. I don't get where you're getting this idea that South Korea is xenophobic or whatever. Foreign players have even taken part in South Korean tournaments and they tend to be pretty popular too. My point was not that the NBA didn't send anyone to an international event. My point is that they're not going to start adding Japanese commentators or things like that and you wouldn't logically expect them to because Japan is not their target audience.
Actually, MLB does broadcast in Japan in Japanese. So try again. You're never going to get it about the xenophobia charge. Try looking up the Boxer Rebellion in China and you might find some context for understanding. I'm not saying Blizzard's position is morally right or any such nonsense, I'm simply making clear that I want them to win, and they should win.
On June 09 2010 13:36 JustAnotherKnave wrote: You ask where Blizzard was all these years in regards to IP, and I'm telling you right now they were there and waiting. Revenge is a dish best served cold. And the forecast is real fuckn bleak for KeSPA.
What was there for Blizzard to get revenge on KeSPA for between 1999 and 2007? Nothing. Blizzard did nothing to protect their IP rights all that time so I don't know what you're talking about with the "revenge is a dish best served cold" thing. The conflict between Blizzard and KeSPA only began in recent years. Before that, Blizzard still did nothing for nearly a decade.
Nothing? There is plenty of evidence to the contrary, and if you don't see it you're as blind and stubborn as KeSPA.
On June 09 2010 13:36 JustAnotherKnave wrote: Blizzard has known all along that SC1 is just the beginning. Before KeSPA can even finish their litigation over SC1:BW, that game will be a thing of the past. SC2 will assume the mantle of top RTS in Korea and elsewhere. The next crop of talented gamers will be playing SC2, not SC1, for very simple obvious reasons. We who are old enough for sentimentality and nostalgia will still appreciate SC1, and perhaps even consider it a superior game, but that has nothing at all to do with advancement in sport. No one in the NBA still wears Chuck Taylor's on the court.
In closing, fuck KeSPA cuz its gonna be a revolution!
I think you're either delusional or misinformed. Blizzard had absolutely no idea when they released SC1 how large it would become. I don't know where on earth you would get this idea. While I don't doubt that the next crop of talented gamers will certainly be playing Starcraft 2, I think you're vastly overestimating Starcraft 2's ability to succeed as a serious eSport in Korea, especially without KeSPA. It will take years for Starcraft 2 to reach Brood War assuming that it even can. KeSPA will most likely continue to broadcast Brood War while litigation is pending so it's not as if there will be some sort of blackout period for Brood War either. Despite all this, Starcraft 2's primary handicap of advancing of an eSport will be the very fact that Blizzard will be in complete control of it. Blizzard has never shown an ability to manage serious competition and I highly doubt they will do so here. And unfortunately, their partner, Gretech, has crap for resources compared to KeSPA and I don't know how many companies will be willing to offer players contracts or sponsor them knowing full well that they will get little to nothing out of doing so since Blizzard will own all the content and all of the player contracts... There just doesn't seem to be much incentive there.
Speak for yourself when it comes to the accusations. Since Warcraft 1, when has Blizzard ever not followed up on a game they released? Answer: never.
You may think I'm overestimating SC2's success, but you'd be wrong. Even if all the current teams and sponsors stay loyal to KeSPA, I'm sure there is a laundry list of clients waiting to replace them all with Gretech, the one with the LEGITIMATE clout this time. And it won't take long at all for the players to be there. We're talking about very young adults who can get payed as professional athletes. You think the 20 year old talent is going to take the high road and not pursue the extent of his gift because of some misplaced sense of loyalty to KeSPA? Yeah right, he's thinking about the fame, the money, and the chicks.
But hey, we're both barking up the wrong tree. I'm not going to change your mind, and neither will you change mine. You think KeSPA deserves to control Korean esports with impunity, and I think they should have to work through Gretech/Blizzard if they want to play SC2.
blizzard is disgusting.. but kespa can do nothing but to make or support other game..
if i were kespa i would glad to cancel out or ban out starcraft in my country and make or develop another rts game in which same genre but different in some aspects..
im sure koreans could do that and surely they are potential game makers than those cash cow developers.
On June 09 2010 11:40 Mellotron wrote: Alright Kespa, you lose. Now save some face and go onto the next game, not float your buildings to the corner of the map and sit there afk.
LOL.
Seriously though, KeSPA is screwed. I really hope Gretech gets control of the Starleagues and starts up SC2 Starleagues post haste.
I think people are too worried about this whole ordeal.
Yeah right, he's thinking about the fame, the money, and the chicks.
Which he certainly isn't getting with sc2.
imo sc2 will just co-exist like wc3 and if blizzard kills broodwar leagues they probably can stop selling sc2 in korea cause noone will buy it. But i doubt they want to ruin their legacy in korea or anywhere else. If they do something to stop bw they will do it slowly after a year or two maybe.
On June 09 2010 08:27 Triik wrote: Remember the time when kespa tried to sell broadcasting rights of starcraft when mbc/ogn were the actual companies hosting the games, coordinating and providing the venues for the games to be played?
Probably the same thing here with Gretech, mbc/ogn will still have to do all the hosting and coordinating but they just have to pay Gretech to broadcast starcraft. How on earth do you expect mbc to cave to Gretech when they did not cave to kespa back then?
because kespa was trying to create a right they could sell. basically, they were trying to sell something they did not, could not own.
gretech has the actual licence, has the actual right to broadcast, and thus can sell it.
On June 09 2010 09:17 iamho wrote: kespa/ogn/cj/mbc should just buy 51% of gom, cj in particular seems rich enough to do so
You are forgetting something.
There's an unknown contract between Blizzard and GomTV. If you remember the contract Blizzard proposed to KeSPA (that is supposed to be a secret, but luckily KeSPA broke the NDA), they asked for full control over the organization, the leagues and the players.
Even if they buy 100% of GomTV, they would be limited by the contract, so things wouldn't change much.
I really want to know the contract. I'm sure it's something like "BW leagues will cost a lot plus 20% more each year, SC2 leagues will be free or really cheap for the moment, but Blizzard reserves the right to ask for more at any moment".
Oh, and the people that say KeSPA didn't create the BW scene: When we talk about KeSPA, we talk about the 2 channels and 12 pro teams they represent. And yes, the did create it.
That is what kespa said the contract was. There was nothing shown that this was the actual proposal. Given how often kespa has been caught lying in this whole incident, I'd like to see proof before believing any accusations they make that would make themselves look better and the other side of the table look worse.
On June 09 2010 12:55 adelarge wrote: Could somebody from the Blizzard defending camp explain me where this logic is wrong? Why is A and B different?
A: Blizzard created Starcraft. People bought Starcraft. People used it to create esports scene. Blizzards now wants money from the esports scene.
B: Canon created cameras. People bought cameras. People used them to take pictures and sold them. Canon now wants money from the sellings.
I'm not actually interested in stricly law discussion, more in the moral background.
Your analogy is too simplistic. you are trying to limit it in a way that cannot be argued. moral aspects are inherently intertwined with legal aspects. At any rate, your analogy would be more apt if B went. John Woo created a movie, people bought the movie, ripped parts of it and sold it. Now John Woo wants money from the sellings.
The difference exists because the creation is what is being sold. In the first example, the original creation is what is being used to create something else, BUT IT IS ALSO WHAT IS BEING SOLD. The second example differs in that the original item is only being used to create something else.
You cannot differentiate starcraft from the esports scene. The two are the same. Starcraft is esports scene, esports scene is starcraft. Suppose you made a fishing rod, some other company bought one, reverse engineered it, and started up a factory to make them. They had cheaper labor costs and started selling your fishing rod for a lower price. This second company might have made your fishing rod popular because they are what got more people using them..... but if you were the first company, would you not be angry?
I think people are too worried about this whole ordeal.
I think I'm worried just the right amount, if as you say Kespa is screwed.
Given I'm interested in the current BW scene, which will die if Kespa dies(Kespa corporations hold contracts with all the best players, run all the practice houses, Kespa itself is responsible for progamer licensing, and MBC, OGN are both Kespa organisations).
Also given that I have no interest in SC2 as a competitive game atm unless Blizzard makes some pretty drastic changes.
There is nothing for me to gain and everything to lose when Kespa goes down. I think alot of others are in the same boat. So, no, we are worried as much as we should be worried :D
On June 09 2010 17:09 wiesel wrote:
imo sc2 will just co-exist like wc3 and if blizzard kills broodwar leagues they probably can stop selling sc2 in korea cause noone will buy it. But i doubt they want to ruin their legacy in korea or anywhere else. If they do something to stop bw they will do it slowly after a year or two maybe.
The problem is WC3 is run by Kespa in Korea. Thus they coexist peacefully. Kespa's position on SC1 is now tenuous, and it basically has no chance at SC2 unless they want to be demoted to pretty much just a union for the sponsors with no control over how tournaments/player licensing are organised (but probably still full control over progame teams if they still exist like they do now). They are certainly not going to be able to add SC2 smoothly to their repertoire like they did W3
On June 09 2010 13:04 JinMaikeul wrote: Actually it would be closer to:
A: Blizzard created Starcraft. People bought Starcraft. People used it to create esports scene. Blizzards now wants money from the esports scene.
B: Spalding creates a basketball. The NBA the basketball. The NBA creates a tournament and sells broadcasting rights to stations that want to broadcast players playing with the basketball that they bought. Spalding now wants money for their product being broadcast in a profitable venture and also wants complete ownership of all broadcasts made that show a Spalding basketball along with ownership of all contracts of the basketball players. Don't forget throwing in the right for Spalding to audit the NBA whenever they want and also requiring the NBA to first receive approval from Spalding for any competition they want to hold involving Spalding basketballs.
The concept of intellectual property and the extent of the rights a creator has to his property are not universal. In the USA and some other western nations, we're used to intellectual property laws being pretty strict and in some cases, downright unreasonable. The question comes down to what you are and are not allowed to do with the things you buy and what rights the consumer has as opposed to the creator.
This is not right. B is incorrect because the NBA uses a basketball as part of a tool to play. In starcraft // esports. The analogy would be more correct if say, Naismith invented basketball, copyrighted it and then other people started playing it. The NBA comes along and creates a tournament and sells broadcasting rights and tickets for attendance, making money off the game that Naismith created.
In this case, Naismith would have every right, legal, moral, ethical to want compensation for the NBA stealing his game and not giving him anything. Thus the same with blizzard. They created the game that other people are using. Starcraft is not analogous to esports in this case as a particular brand of basketball is to the NBA.
Comparatively, in the esports world, a basketball would be more akin to the monitor or mouse or keyboard. A tool that allows one the play the game. NOT the game itself.
On June 09 2010 16:17 Drunken Argument wrote: Everyone is missing the central issue. Blizzard is NOT NOT NOT trying to kill BW. They are trying to stake a place for SC2.
Think of this as a legal precedent. KeSPA would have an excellent case to broadcast SC2 without any input from Blizzard if Blizzard never challenged them on BW. By challenging KeSPA now, they assure themselves a place at the table when SC2 eSports forms.
Everyone who thinks Blizzard wants to kill BW, read this: If Blizzard wanted to kill BW, it wouldn't have made a deal with GOM. Blizzard would actually have a easier case by just trying to shut the whole scene down for IP violations. Instead, they're trying to preserve the scene while creating a place for themselves.
Make no mistake: Blizzard controls the future. SC2's EULA will almost certainly prohibit broadcasting for profit without their consent and without LAN, Blizzard can control the Korean servers and prevent those who violate that EULA from playing games. But instead of using an iron fist to smash the scene (even thought they are legally in the clear), they're offering a hand and trying to preserve the scene.
I have no doubt in my mind that Blizzard does not want to kill BW. The problem is, if the leagues stop then the korean BW pros are out of a job. By then, SC2 will be out, and it's likely that future gamers will not pick up brood war if the league system is shacky or non-existent. Since the current pros will be out of a job, and future gamers probably won't want to take the time to get gosu at BW, it is a possibility that despite blizzard's intentions, BW will die.
I mean, does Blizzard/Gretech have the funding, or time to negotiate with sponsors for future leagues that are up to the standards of PL/MSL/OSL? Can Blizzard afford to house and feed hundreds of professionals while these negotiations are happening? I certainly hope so. If not, I hope the fans are outraged at the misguided decisions of those that run our favorite game. I just wouldn't rule out that possibility.
On June 09 2010 15:55 Ruff wrote: Go KeSPA! F*ck Blizzard.
User was banned for this post.
That's pretty harsh, bro. I think both sides have handled this badly. Anyway, one thing's for certain, if the pro scene is going to stay alive in Korea the relations between these three companies is going to have to change. A LOT. We don't need any more crying over who gets the money. All three of these companies have enough as it is. The problem is they aren't agreeing with each other because they each want a bigger slice of the pie. And if they can't agree on the sizes of the slices, it's gonna be bad news.
On June 09 2010 15:55 Ruff wrote: Go KeSPA! F*ck Blizzard.
User was banned for this post.
That's pretty harsh, bro. I think both sides have handled this badly. Anyway, one thing's for certain, if the pro scene is going to stay alive in Korea the relations between these three companies is going to have to change. A LOT. We don't need any more crying over who gets the money. All three of these companies have enough as it is. The problem is they aren't agreeing with each other because they each want a bigger slice of the pie. And if they can't agree on the sizes of the slices, it's gonna be bad news.
Sadly I don't think they are arguing over who gets a bigger slice, so much as who determines how big a slice everyone gets, what knife to use to cut the pie, what ingredients to put into the pie and how it's cooked.
That is to say, they(Blizzard and Kespa, Gom probably is just in it for the profits) want operation control of Korean ESPORTS, I'm sure if it was just a licensing fee, and it wasn't ridiculous, Kespa would just pay it.
Blizz should have stuck to granting license regarding SCII, instead of trying to enforce BW IP rights through a third party. They really seek a confrontation with KeSPA that's not necessary.
How effective will negotiations be when they start? Will KeSPA continue to run their leagues, since a lawsuit could take years and have an unpredictable outcome? Blizzard has an interest in this being solved before SCII hits, and the scene has an interest in certainty, that allows for sponsors and planning. Hopefully this should be enough to secure the pro scene to continue.
but in the case of Starcraft it's crystal clear, Blizzard invented it, they perfected and balanced it over many years, they own it
Its painfully clear you have no idea what has happened in Starcraft over the years. SC:BW became a phenomenon that Blizzard could never have predicted ahead-of-time. The way strategy has progressed, the subtle techniques used, and the overall evolution of how to play BW "properly" came about solely because of a large faithful playerbase who continued to work and fine-tune it. If you were active in the scene when SC1 first hit the shelves, you would know that today's BW isn't "Blizzard's game". Its a player-created franchise that became popular because of us. Those "adjustments" they made and all the patches they put out were because we figured out certain things needed tweaking. If we didn't exist, game patches wouldn't exist, and the game would fail. Stop treating the creating party like they're a God for making the original and its not about us for making it what it is today.
What? How one plays the game does not change the game you are playing. When you start the game does it display starcraft or does it display something else? Whose code are you running? You / We, made nothing. All we did was learn how to play the game optimally. Its like saying tiger woods owns golf, or rafa nadal owns tennis. Thats absurd.
This is correct although the shortsightedness of people who follow this as a truth is nauseating. Basically it'd be like getting rid of the NBA and expecting Basketball to continue because ESPN was given sole broadcasting rights. If you can't see that simple analogy, there's no talking to you.
Wrong again. Seriously where do you get this stuff? NCAA. Plenty of football (soccer) leagues have started and folded and others have started. Games do not cease to exist because the primary league in one country ceases to exist. Or because somebody else is the only entity capable of showing footage of it.
All due respect, I don't believe you understand the situation.
On June 09 2010 11:40 Mellotron wrote: Alright Kespa, you lose. Now save some face and go onto the next game, not float your buildings to the corner of the map and sit there afk.
What? How one plays the game does not change the game you are playing. When you start the game does it display starcraft or does it display something else? Whose code are you running? You / We, made nothing. All we did was learn how to play the game optimally. Its like saying tiger woods owns golf, or rafa nadal owns tennis. Thats absurd.
The korean map makers balanced the game, they deserve some credit. Starcraft on Blizzard maps= omg
So like, when blizzard finally gets it's way and e-sports dies as we know it now. Then they try and redo it their way with sc1 and a whole new way with sc2 and it fails. Then will blizzard Seppuku for us? I really hope that part is in the contract somewhere.
What? How one plays the game does not change the game you are playing. When you start the game does it display starcraft or does it display something else? Whose code are you running? You / We, made nothing. All we did was learn how to play the game optimally. Its like saying tiger woods owns golf, or rafa nadal owns tennis. Thats absurd.
The korean map makers balanced the game, they deserve some credit. Starcraft on Blizzard maps= omg
This is very very true.
However, I would like to comment on the fact that people somehow believe that blizz just decides to stop supporting BW and caring about it up till now. Except even earlier they attempted to start a league with gom, and have been negotiating with kespa since 07.
And have been releasing patches for bugs and exploits for a significant period of time.
I think that if blizz had access to the data that the koreans had, they would have made better maps or made other balance changes as well. They just havent because now they havent had to since somebody else made the maps for them. People just seem to forget that blizz HAS supported the game for an inordinately long period of time, HAS attempted to start their own league *which kespa shut down*, HAS run their own tournaments, and HAS been fighting with kespa over IP rights for a significant period of time. They are anything but a johnny come lately. They do care about their game.
On June 09 2010 13:36 riboflavin wrote: KeSPA is an opportunistic entity that helped stabilize the SC BW scene in order to create a profit for itself.
Where is this profit coming from exactly? They spend more than they make on running the teams, tournaments etc. I'm not sure how anyone thinks that theres a lot of money going into KeSPA, the profit is in the form of advertising for the sponsors.
On June 09 2010 13:36 riboflavin wrote: KeSPA is an opportunistic entity that helped stabilize the SC BW scene in order to create a profit for itself.
Where is this profit coming from exactly? They spend more than they make on running the teams, tournaments etc. I'm not sure how anyone thinks that theres a lot of money going into KeSPA, the profit is in the form of advertising for the sponsors.
On June 09 2010 07:20 Chef wrote: Thanks for this.
“In order to prevent E-SPORTS fans from suffering losses by having leagues shutdown by force, we are doing our best to start negotiations as soon as possible, but kespa and the broadcasting channels have not given us a response, which is very frustrating.”
Honestly, I think this is exactly what should happen. They should try to shut down the individual leagues, and then have the law shoved in their faces when they realise they don't have any right to do so. Sorry, Blizzard, but you can't make up the rules. I don't there's any real law that protects their game from being used in broadcasts, and it doesn't exactly look good that they're 8 years too late.
Even if SC:BW ends because of this, and Blizzard really does have the law on their side, I think that's dying with honour. If these are the last days of BroodWar, I will watch as many games as I can. I'm not going to watch any e-sports run by the ungrateful company Blizzard has become. The word sport can't even be applied to such a ridiculous venture.
To clarify my feelings: I think if only on a matter of principle, KeSPA should not negotiate under these circumstances. Blizzard wants control of an organization they didn't help at all, but that helped them lots. Blizzard is the ultimate brat.
On June 09 2010 17:17 dogabutila wrote: Comparatively, in the esports world, a basketball would be more akin to the monitor or mouse or keyboard. A tool that allows one the play the game. NOT the game itself.
It occurred to me years ago, when I started disliking Blizzard, that it might be useful to "remake" Starcraft from scratch. By that I mean make an engine that is very similar to that of Starcraft, so that even quirks and glitches can be reproduced, and then create units with totally different names and graphics, but with stats corresponding to the units we know. I'd venture a guess that while Blizzard owns all the rights to the content of the game, they don't own the numbers that make up the unit statistics. At least not in countries with sane laws.
If such a remake were to exist, it would be a second tool that allows you to play a game of Starcraft. A game of Starcraft can be played using any program that has the necessary features. So the program really is just a tool, but it just so happens that there is only one company "manufacturing" it.
It occurred to me years ago, when I started disliking Blizzard, that it might be useful to "remake" Starcraft from scratch. By that I mean make an engine that is very similar to that of Starcraft, so that even quirks and glitches can be reproduced, and then create units with totally different names and graphics, but with stats corresponding to the units we know. I'd venture a guess that while Blizzard owns all the rights to the content of the game, they don't own the numbers that make up the unit statistics. At least not in countries with sane laws.
If such a remake were to exist, it would be a second tool that allows you to play a game of Starcraft. A game of Starcraft can be played using any program that has the necessary features. So the program really is just a tool, but it just so happens that there is only one company "manufacturing" it.
That would be a really good thing for a sport if this works. Shame nobody really committed to this. I do not think it would be difficult in Korea. So many diablo-like online games were made just overnight.
Haven't read all the replies, but one thing stands out to me.
GOM have an exclusive 3 year deal with Blizzard. According to Kespa, Blizzard were only offering a one year deal to them.
A one year deal would be insane to take because there are no future guarantees, and yet Kespa claim that was the offer, while GOM manage to get 3 years exclusivity for all Blizzard games...
That's ridiculous. I can understand Blizzard's wish to cash on sc2 as much as possible, especially with all the effort they have put in. However, it feels completely wrong to go this far concerning sc:bw. Although the IP argument is the same, it is at the very least morally questionable (as if this matters in business...). Without Kespa e-sports would not have been what it is, making it much harder for sc2 to establish itself as a e-sports title. And arguably without sc:bw's popularity due to kespa blizz would be able to sell only a fraction of the sc2 copies it will sell now.
This shit pisses me off so badly... I am truly fearing we will never see any quality organisations running tournaments again.. if we ever will see any except the gom facist tournaments..
Edit: I hope this goes to a judge and he says blizzard cant control a product theyve already sold... its like mercedes would go out and decide wich roads you could drive on with your car. God this annoys me...
Edit:Edit This is blizzard trying to kill SC to make sure everyone switches to SC2. Im 100% sure of it now. F U Blizzard... Im NEVER buying SC2 as it stands now...
If BW dies , wich I sincerely hope it does not then I would be forced to start playing SC2 just beacuse ... I don't wanna be the only BW-player out there
On June 09 2010 12:39 trulla wrote: same thing I posted on TL's facebook:
Blizzard is against e-sport. Let me explain why, and please forgive my bad english.
Nowadays, videogame's enterprise is based not only selling the game, but also expansions and add-ons, so game developpers have profit long after the game first come out. These expansions and add-ons require changes to the game to make it more attractive to the ... Ver máscustomers. If you don't agree with me, please check how much traffic there is on these items on Xbox Live and PSN.
On the other hand, e-sports must be based on games that are massively played (so there is a market for each game, this require that people don't have to pay every month for a new patch, add-on, etc), that don't change much after every patch (so gamers can develop strategies and techniques through time, just like the starcraft case).
This is why Blizzard has made so much money on WoW and so little with Starcraft, being Starcraft the most awesome game of all time and that has been played for hundreds of thousand people for over 12 years.
I hope i made myself clear, again sorry about my english
very interesting point. well thought out. understood you fine :D
I dont understand KESPA at all in that case... jesus.
First of all it is right that Blizzard placed the timing on pushing that enforcement very well to promote SC2 even at the cost of some professional SC:BW tournaments. That doesnt necessarily mean it is "dead" at all, just it would be less in favor of SC2 but still a reasonable point to start and to gather interest. That is of course not the "gentle" move you'd expect in real life. But this is neither real life nor politics this is BUSINESS and business is cruel. Therefore it was a nice, strategic move to enforce this right now.
Tough, Blizzard doesn't just close the doors, even if Kespa made profit out of a game they dont own at all. The just refused to leave it at the status quo and selling the rights to someone else hoping it turns out well for SC2. GomTV in that case offered to continue the current leagues and keep the teams on track - so all Kespa can loose is some profit (and I think with there capacities they have plenty of ways to compensate the fees). So what in bloody hell is Kespa trying to get with that behaviour? Do they think dying in ignorance will save them the holy grail of popularity or what? This is just bullshit if you ask me and if someone is responsible for that mess its only Kespa and their more than dumb behaviour.
Just a thought on the strategy that i think KeSPA is using here.
It seems to me that KeSPA is attempting to fight this battle in the court of public opinion rather than in a court of law. Having a little over two months left in there grace period and not engaging Gretech re gaining rights to broadcast league events, KeSPA is looking to actually gain mass public support from outraged fans by announcing at a critical point, that they will not be able to continue with individual events because of strong armed tactics from Blizzard and Gretech. I think KeSPA is hoping that when there are no events running, the public outrage will be so much that it pushes Blizzard into a corner and may even impact on how the gaming community in general receives Blizzard products from now on.
Kespa is pretty stubborn refusing to strike a deal with Gretech, "omfg we aren't gonna pay to broadcast starcraft".
Kespa are acting like a spoiled 9 year old who aren't getting everything his way, Kespa should just pay up and everything will be like before. Kespa are evil to the core wanting to dictate eSports.
Blizzard did the right decision giving rights to Gretech, Kespa had no rights to broadcast Starcraft as if it was their game and ignore Blizzards requests.
On June 09 2010 12:39 trulla wrote: same thing I posted on TL's facebook:
Blizzard is against e-sport. Let me explain why, and please forgive my bad english.
Nowadays, videogame's enterprise is based not only selling the game, but also expansions and add-ons, so game developpers have profit long after the game first come out. These expansions and add-ons require changes to the game to make it more attractive to the ... Ver máscustomers. If you don't agree with me, please check how much traffic there is on these items on Xbox Live and PSN.
On the other hand, e-sports must be based on games that are massively played (so there is a market for each game, this require that people don't have to pay every month for a new patch, add-on, etc), that don't change much after every patch (so gamers can develop strategies and techniques through time, just like the starcraft case).
This is why Blizzard has made so much money on WoW and so little with Starcraft, being Starcraft the most awesome game of all time and that has been played for hundreds of thousand people for over 12 years.
I hope i made myself clear, again sorry about my english
Except Blizzard have already started running tournaments through GOM TV and the game is not even out of beta yet, they obviously aren't anti-esports, they just want to be the ones calling the shots.
Starcraft is Blizzard's second biggest selling game after WoW so they obviously haven't made "so little" with Starcraft.
BTW a sport can have constant changes to it and can still be extremely popular and competitive as a sport. F1 motor racing for example is extremely popular in many countries and is constantly undergoing revisions and rule changes on a monthly basis.
Yes, they want to take control of e-sports in korea where it is a profitable business, but not in other regions, that's why no crossrealm in bnet2.0. Anyway the way blizzard is fucking everything up with sc2 and bnet2, SCII will not have a massive competitive scene as SC:BW. I really don't think so.
they haven't, that's why the game has already 2 expansions coming.
changing the technology of the cars of course is a part of the competition on F1 because the teams are car producers and they want to take advantage from their own technology and research. I don't see any other sport where they change the rules every year (in games it would be every 2 months)
No in F1 it's not just the cars, they change the actual rules quite often, for example this year they inrtroduced the rule where you have to have the same tank of fuel for the entire race instead of allowing you to fill up during a pit stop. There are tons of other examples of sports that are constantly changing the rules, the NFL for example bringing in all the rules against rushing the passer has significantly changed the game. Rugby Union recently brought in a whole bunch of new rules relating to many aspects of the game including scrum formations and the way penalties are given. Sports are always tweaking their rules to either make the game fairer or prevent injuries.
On June 09 2010 13:36 riboflavin wrote: KeSPA is an opportunistic entity that helped stabilize the SC BW scene in order to create a profit for itself.
Where is this profit coming from exactly? They spend more than they make on running the teams, tournaments etc. I'm not sure how anyone thinks that theres a lot of money going into KeSPA, the profit is in the form of advertising for the sponsors.
I said 'in order to create a profit for itself'. Just because they failed to turn a profit doesn't change the fact that they are capitalistic. Their objective, like any business was to make money. I don't begrudge them this. I was simply stating this point to show motivations as compared to Blizzard. I could care less if they lose money, make money...poop on it and eat it with a side of P. Sweat.
The only place I implied where there was real money was on the Blizzard side. Because they have such a massive balance sheet it legitimizes their claims even more. We all know how little money there is to be had from the e-sports scene. Obviously Blizzard could give two poops about the chump change they will collect from broadcasting rights.
What? How one plays the game does not change the game you are playing. When you start the game does it display starcraft or does it display something else? Whose code are you running? You / We, made nothing. All we did was learn how to play the game optimally. Its like saying tiger woods owns golf, or rafa nadal owns tennis. Thats absurd.
It seems that you don't understand how sports change over the years, its the top players who find new things and then eventually certain aspects become either broken or need adjusting and therefore it does in fact become a player-created game. Its not at all like saying Tiger Woods owns golf but losing him certainly would be a big blow for Pro Golf so its in their best interest to keep him around (the latest scandal made that very clear if you follow sports at all)..
Wrong again. Seriously where do you get this stuff? NCAA. Plenty of football (soccer) leagues have started and folded and others have started. Games do not cease to exist because the primary league in one country ceases to exist. Or because somebody else is the only entity capable of showing footage of it.
All due respect, I don't believe you understand the situation.
There's a reason I specifically didn't use NCAA. I foresaw someone saying something like this and picked something that's large-scale but mostly located within a single country hoping someone would respond like this so thanks in a sense. If you have a sport that is already internationally-rooted and you dissolve the original council responsible for game management, team management, etc, then yes eventually it will recover just based on the popularity of the sport. If you are dissolving the governing body or "The Big Cheese" as we'll call it from here on out of a sport or event that does NOT have this kind of popularity or deep-rooted history (E-Sports is even less so than the NBA I should have used like... NFL or something) then the blow is far more severe. Failure to see the minute yet significant differences here will cause your opinion to be wildly offtrack.
That all being said and hopefully setting some opinions on the right track (if you didn't, that's ok I forgive your shortsightedness and the probable flaming that will occur to me). I still have seen no response whatsoever that looks at my last post though about asking for official information on the ongoing negotiations. Therefore, I'm going to assume that these details are just as I assumed, and they are not public which makes discussion on a topic like this utterly meaningless as all the stances are based on assumptions which both have equal potential to be incorrect.
I don't know if this has been asked before, but how long would the lawsuit take?
If Kespa has good lawyers, maybe they could postpone the conviction for like 3-5 years. And with the slowly decreasing interest in BW especially after the release of SC2, that could be the exact time frame how long it would have been profitable in the first place. Or am I wrong?
force korean goverment to create a specific law or something that just nullifies blizzard power over e-sport on korea and GG...
Just like in many other countries, the laws of the companies are restricted to what the government says and not the other way.
that's the only way out for KeSPA, OGN and MBC if they don't want to pay to gretech.
I still think is absolutely non-sense to give all the power to Gretech.
They talk about diplomacy ? This seems very Feudalistic for me. Everybody pays Gretech that hasn't done half as much as KeSPA, OGN and MBC for e-sports in korea. Plain ridiculous.
On June 10 2010 00:57 shin ken wrote: I don't know if this has been asked before, but how long would the lawsuit take?
If Kespa has good lawyers, maybe they could postpone the conviction for like 3-5 years. And with the slowly decreasing interest in BW especially after the release of SC2, that could be the exact time frame how long it would have been profitable in the first place. Or am I wrong?
I'd really wonder about this as well, everyone's worried about a 2month deadline, but seriously, it takes ages to shut down stuff like this.
On June 10 2010 00:57 shin ken wrote: I don't know if this has been asked before, but how long would the lawsuit take?
If Kespa has good lawyers, maybe they could postpone the conviction for like 3-5 years. And with the slowly decreasing interest in BW especially after the release of SC2, that could be the exact time frame how long it would have been profitable in the first place. Or am I wrong?
I'd really wonder about this as well, everyone's worried about a 2month deadline, but seriously, it takes ages to shut down stuff like this.
It'll take a while to shut down the game's popularity I'm sure (in fact it may never truly die), but the 2 month deadline everyone is worried about is what Activision-Blizzard (stop calling them just "blizzard" guys, its wrong) gave to KeSpA to stop broadcasting SC:BW tournaments and games. As far as I know, noone has those rights at the moment (I think GOM only has SC2 broadcasting rights) and it would mean that the pro scene dies almost instantly. All the pros and teams that are currently gathered would suddenly have no scene to play in, no arenas, and the fanbase would drop drastically because of the sudden nonexistence of games to watch/attend.
On June 10 2010 00:57 shin ken wrote: I don't know if this has been asked before, but how long would the lawsuit take?
If Kespa has good lawyers, maybe they could postpone the conviction for like 3-5 years. And with the slowly decreasing interest in BW especially after the release of SC2, that could be the exact time frame how long it would have been profitable in the first place. Or am I wrong?
I'd really wonder about this as well, everyone's worried about a 2month deadline, but seriously, it takes ages to shut down stuff like this.
It'll take a while to shut down the game's popularity I'm sure (in fact it may never truly die), but the 2 month deadline everyone is worried about is what Activision-Blizzard (stop calling them just "blizzard" guys, its wrong) gave to KeSpA to stop broadcasting SC:BW tournaments and games. As far as I know, noone has those rights at the moment (I think GOM only has SC2 broadcasting rights) and it would mean that the pro scene dies almost instantly. All the pros and teams that are currently gathered would suddenly have no scene to play in, no arenas, and the fanbase would drop drastically because of the sudden nonexistence of games to watch/attend.
GOMTV has rights to all Blizzard games, including BW so if everyone wanted to they could easily make the switch with hardly any change at all. (Maybe casters and ridiculous rules) The players, teams, leagues and sponsors lose nothing but control by negotiating with GOM. Sponsors pay for teams and training to get the sponsor name out. There's really no loss in the free advertising (aka profit by sales) if they just switched over. KeSPA is being really stupid atm.
Also, it is still "Blizzard" as Activision Blizzard is merely the parent publishing company and does no direct development on games itself. Blizzard Entertainment still exists as a separate entity and still has full power over everything it does. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activision_Blizzard (Sorry, pet peeve when people confuse the two.)
Another thing people need to note is it's not USA law versus Korean law anymore. Rights belong to GOM, so a Korean company is having it's rights infringed upon if KeSPA continues their tournaments with ignorance. You can't expect the Korean government to back one Korean entity over another because of foreign influence. South Korea has Copyright laws too. Sure courts could drag out but in the end it's KeSPA who will take a hit. I'm no lawyer or anything but it's pretty obvious KeSPA doesn't recognize IP rights. A lot of the analagies have been fail, but one thing you can compare Starcraft to is movies. You can't take a movie created by someone else, splice it into your own creation and broadcast it while making money off of it. It's against all laws, and theres no way to justify that.
One last little note that people probably aren't too familiar with: Some time ago Jon747 had to stop uploading one of the KeSPA leagues videos because they claimed copyrights to it and wanted him to pay per video. (Not sure if this is still the case but I distinctly remember reading about it on his page) It's okay for KeSPA to ask for that but not respect Blizzards IP rights in the first place?
On June 10 2010 00:57 shin ken wrote: I don't know if this has been asked before, but how long would the lawsuit take?
If Kespa has good lawyers, maybe they could postpone the conviction for like 3-5 years. And with the slowly decreasing interest in BW especially after the release of SC2, that could be the exact time frame how long it would have been profitable in the first place. Or am I wrong?
I'd really wonder about this as well, everyone's worried about a 2month deadline, but seriously, it takes ages to shut down stuff like this.
It'll take a while to shut down the game's popularity I'm sure (in fact it may never truly die), but the 2 month deadline everyone is worried about is what Activision-Blizzard (stop calling them just "blizzard" guys, its wrong) gave to KeSpA to stop broadcasting SC:BW tournaments and games. As far as I know, noone has those rights at the moment (I think GOM only has SC2 broadcasting rights) and it would mean that the pro scene dies almost instantly. All the pros and teams that are currently gathered would suddenly have no scene to play in, no arenas, and the fanbase would drop drastically because of the sudden nonexistence of games to watch/attend.
Yes but my point is, it's the deadline Blizzard gave them(not a korean court), so what if the deadline passes and they still broadcast, then blizzard has to go to court and the process lengthens while they just continue showing the leagues, am I wrong?
GOMTV has rights to all Blizzard games, including BW so if everyone wanted to they could easily make the switch with hardly any change at all. (Maybe casters and ridiculous rules) The players, teams, leagues and sponsors lose nothing but control by negotiating with GOM. Sponsors pay for teams and training to get the sponsor name out. There's really no loss in the free advertising (aka profit by sales) if they just switched over. KeSPA is being really stupid atm.
As the terms of these negotiations have not been made public, you are basing your opinion off assumptions which can easily be skewed.
Also, it is still "Blizzard" as Activision Blizzard is merely the parent publishing company and does no direct development on games itself. Blizzard Entertainment still exists as a separate entity and still has full power over everything it does. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activision_Blizzard (Sorry, pet peeve when people confuse the two.)
Your own source wrote:
Activision Blizzard, Inc., formerly Activision, Inc. (NASDAQ: ATVI) is the American holding company for Activision and Blizzard Entertainment, majority owned by French conglomerate Vivendi SA.
So its "Activision Blizzard Inc." not "Blizzard Inc.". Regardless of Activision claiming they won't have any influence over Blizzard's games, the fact that they report to the same shareholders means in fact that Blizzard is now on Activision's schedule and not their own. Activision no doubt pressures Blizzard to get things out on time even if it means a premature launch just to have it out so their shareholders can start making money. You have to have a little insight into how the companies work in order to reach this conclusion though.
but one thing you can compare Starcraft to is movies. You can't take a movie created by someone else, splice it into your own creation and broadcast it while making money off of it. It's against all laws, and theres no way to justify that.
Being an active member of the film industry myself, I can tell you that your analogy is also way off. The way a movie and a game are made are very different. Also the way a game can become a competitive medium does not exist within a movie. You can't have different movie-goers battling it out in a fight to win the movie. While its true KeSPA honestly shouldn't have been making money off of this, Activision Blizzard Inc will not be any better for making money off of E-Sports either. If you want to run it like a real sports team, the players and the team owners might make money off sales of certain team-related merchandise, but the games themselves should be free as well as the broadcasts (unless of course you're viewing them through a premium service such as pay-per-view or something). You can broadcast any sport basically free of charge or fear of being prosecuted as long as you're not infringing on the team's rights to their own likeness. The same should exist for E-Sports.
One last little note that people probably aren't too familiar with: Some time ago Jon747 had to stop uploading one of the KeSPA leagues videos because they claimed copyrights to it and wanted him to pay per video. (Not sure if this is still the case but I distinctly remember reading about it on his page) It's okay for KeSPA to ask for that but not respect Blizzards IP rights in the first place?
I actually looked this up in response to something someone said but I wasn't sure if it was this thread. I thought it was the OSL/MSL Leagues (MBC Game owns MSL and OnGameNet owns OSL) that were claiming rights to their broadcasts and not KeSPA but I wasn't positive so I didn't say anything.
Jon747 wrote: ### Please Notice ###
I have been hesitating due to Copyright, OSL + MSL, and other stuffs. oskyloveo did quit recording them on TV. So I have to play my money $ 0.5 as per one file if I should download from......
I don't know exactly and Im a little hazy about what to do next....
Yes but my point is, it's the deadline Blizzard gave them(not a korean court), so what if the deadline passes and they still broadcast, then blizzard has to go to court and the process lengthens while they just continue showing the leagues, am I wrong?
Depends on the ability to have the courts grant an injunction against KeSPA / the broadcasters.
I want to point out something that a lot of people are not getting in this thread; just because its in an EULA (or any contract) does NOT mean that is the end all, be all legal situation that cannot be broken. There are limitations on all contracts (usually dealing with interactions with other laws e.g. you cannot contract someone to rob a bank or steal a car for you and then sue them when they dont do it) and Blizzard, despite putting all of this stuff in their EULA for Starcraft 2 may not have the legal capability to stop broadcast of games, replays, maps, etcetera if the Korean courts decide that the terms in the EULA are not legal.
EULAs fit a certain number of legal definitions that modify their enforceability relative to negotiated contracts, as well. The Korean courts could very well look at Blizzard claiming to own content created by end users and decide that it's not fair to the end user and simply void that language. I dont know how contract law works in Korea, maybe one of our fine South Korean members can illuminate that area.
And let's try to look at this less from who is the good guy and who is the bad guy in the legal or strictly moral sense, lets look at who is the good guy and who is the bad guy for the fans and the players. Legality should be secondary, shouldnt it? It's not like Blizzard needs this money, they will be fine without it. If KeSPA loses then BW on TV may very well go away. You may be watching sudden attack on OGN or MBC and that would be 1000 times worse wouldnt it?
BTW I have an analogy I think actually fits since it is a software analogy.
What would happen if Adobe claimed ownership of everything made with photoshop, like end user pictures, brushes, automated actions, etc? I mean, if they could make the same claim as Blizzard, I bet they could walk into the office of every major news paper or blog and demand compensation and then if it wasnt given they could sue them.
I wonder if they would win? Because I seriously doubt it.
mother-fucking KESPA is really doing this! those son-of-a-bitch is gambling all-ins with the future of both starleagues at stake!
they are ignoring Blizzard yet again in defiance, as in saying " I DARE YOU TO SHUT US DOWN, I DARE YOU TO SHUTDOWN SC1 STARLEAGUES!"
its disgusting how they are playing around like this, if Blizzard really did shut down both starleagues Kespa is gonna make Blizzard looks like the bad guys again in korea, if kespa keeps up with this the parties they'll end up hurting the most is us and the pro-gamers..........
Yes but my point is, it's the deadline Blizzard gave them(not a korean court), so what if the deadline passes and they still broadcast, then blizzard has to go to court and the process lengthens while they just continue showing the leagues, am I wrong?
Depends on the ability to have the courts grant an injunction against KeSPA / the broadcasters.
I want to point out something that a lot of people are not getting in this thread; just because its in an EULA (or any contract) does NOT mean that is the end all, be all legal situation that cannot be broken. There are limitations on all contracts (usually dealing with interactions with other laws e.g. you cannot contract someone to rob a bank or steal a car for you and then sue them when they dont do it) and Blizzard, despite putting all of this stuff in their EULA for Starcraft 2 may not have the legal capability to stop broadcast of games, replays, maps, etcetera if the Korean courts decide that the terms in the EULA are not legal.
EULAs fit a certain number of legal definitions that modify their enforceability relative to negotiated contracts, as well. The Korean courts could very well look at Blizzard claiming to own content created by end users and decide that it's not fair to the end user and simply void that language. I dont know how contract law works in Korea, maybe one of our fine South Korean members can illuminate that area.
And let's try to look at this less from who is the good guy and who is the bad guy in the legal or strictly moral sense, lets look at who is the good guy and who is the bad guy for the fans and the players. Legality should be secondary, shouldnt it? It's not like Blizzard needs this money, they will be fine without it. If KeSPA loses then BW on TV may very well go away. You may be watching sudden attack on OGN or MBC and that would be 1000 times worse wouldnt it?
BTW I have an analogy I think actually fits since it is a software analogy.
What would happen if Adobe claimed ownership of everything made with photoshop, like end user pictures, brushes, automated actions, etc? I mean, if they could make the same claim as Blizzard, I bet they could walk into the office of every major news paper or blog and demand compensation and then if it wasnt given they could sue them.
I wonder if they would win? Because I seriously doubt it.
Your analogy is off because you think Blizzard is trying to claim the content created by users (replays, etc.). That's wrong. Blizzard is trying to gain (some of) the broadcasting rights. No court would ever say that Blizzard owns what the players create, or even the parts of a broadcast that aren't the game itself (intros, commentary, etc.). But it does own the game engine, sprites, etc, and you can't have a broadcast without using those things. Therefore, Blizzard should be compensated in some way or form for use of their materials in a profit-making enterprise.
Your newspaper analogy is off because no one assumes that a software company owns the user output of the software, just the software itself. If newspapers could somehow charge people to watch them photoshop, it would be a correct analogy.
Ownership. Game clients and Service. The Game clients and the Service (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, documentation, in-game chat transcripts, character profile information, recordings or replays of Games, and the Game client and server software) are copyrighted works owned by Blizzard and its licensors.
and by extension blizzard claiming they own replays makes my analogy about Adobe trying to claim owenership of pictures made in photoshop is a valid one.
On June 10 2010 05:39 jpak wrote: Well, from what I've garnered here, I have to say this.
Farewell, BW. Thanks for the 12-year ride you've given us.
There's only 2 options: 1) Either they don't negotiate and Blizzard has to go to court to stop the broadcasting, which means it takes at least a few years to handle this. Bw will continue so long. 2) Kespa makes a deal with blizzard. Bw will continue
I'm not sure the law will be on Blizzard's side for BW or SC2. Just because you put it into an EULA, doesn't mean it can't be challenged. I don't think Blizz will ever be able to assert full rights over the games and broadcasts because they require someone else to do the work. It would be like Adobe trying to claim copyright over everything made in Photoshop... it'd just be absurd and I'm not convinced it would hold up in court.
I hate KeSPA, but I honestly hope they win here. I'd rather have a stupid but open organization run things rather than Activision Blizzard at this point.
On June 10 2010 05:39 jpak wrote: Well, from what I've garnered here, I have to say this.
Farewell, BW. Thanks for the 12-year ride you've given us.
There's 2 options. 1) Either they don't negotiate and go to court, which means it takes at least a few years to handle this. Bw will continue so long. 2) Kespa makes a deal with blizzard. Bw will continue
So theres no danger fror broodwar in my eyes.
If it was the US, the number 1 option will be feasable. First of all, it takes a year for a case to reach court, and that decision can be appealed 2 or 3 times until u get to the supreme court, so certainly in the U.S.
Not sure about Korea, though.
Oh, and option number 2 is becoming a bit out of reach. Just a bit.
On June 10 2010 05:39 jpak wrote: Well, from what I've garnered here, I have to say this.
Farewell, BW. Thanks for the 12-year ride you've given us.
There's 2 options. 1) Either they don't negotiate and go to court, which means it takes at least a few years to handle this. Bw will continue so long. 2) Kespa makes a deal with blizzard. Bw will continue
So theres no danger fror broodwar in my eyes.
If it was the US, the number 1 option will be feasable. First of all, it takes a year for a case to reach court, and that decision can be appealed 2 or 3 times until u get to the supreme court, so certainly in the U.S.
Not sure about Korea, though.
Oh, and option number 2 is becoming a bit out of reach. Just a bit.
Dont know what your trying to say. It takes a year and more to reach court and it's Blizzard/gretech who will have to go to court to stop the broadcasting, like you said, Bw will be fine so far. And this is Korea , US law plays no role in this scenario.
Ownership. Game clients and Service. The Game clients and the Service (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, documentation, in-game chat transcripts, character profile information, recordings or replays of Games, and the Game client and server software) are copyrighted works owned by Blizzard and its licensors..
haha how to hell blizzard owns catchphrases (unit responses) when they stole them from cult movies, including "Aliens" and "Full Metal Jacket"
Part of me doesnt like how copyrights could be handled. IMO you pay blizzard for a copy of the game and as long as you dont make copies of it to sell illegally you should be fine. A game broadcast using starcraft is of your own creation and you have already compensated blizzard. It's like saying blizzard should get part of the used game sales. They've already been paid their share. Then again using their game in a broadcast does make me think maybe they should get a SMALL part of the revenue. I know I contradicted myself but it shows how conflicted I am . I dont believe blizzard should be able to get a stranglehold on BW and KeSPA.
I'm torn because I dont like KeSPA at ALL, but I also dont like Blizzard's blatant greed and want to control EVERYTHING related to esports. I just want the players to get paid well because they train very hard and do us all a service by playing the game at a high level. Just keep Esports alive and maybe one day get it broadcasted in HD around the globe!
Ownership. Game clients and Service. The Game clients and the Service (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, documentation, in-game chat transcripts, character profile information, recordings or replays of Games, and the Game client and server software) are copyrighted works owned by Blizzard and its licensors..
haha how to hell blizzard owns catchphrases (unit responses) when they stole them from cult movies, including "Aliens" and "Full Metal Jacket"
Lol, what the hell, seriously blizzard? What's next? Are you going to registrate "soldier in big ass power armor" and then charge games workshop?
Ownership. Game clients and Service. The Game clients and the Service (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, documentation, in-game chat transcripts, character profile information, recordings or replays of Games, and the Game client and server software) are copyrighted works owned by Blizzard and its licensors..
haha how to hell blizzard owns catchphrases (unit responses) when they stole them from cult movies, including "Aliens" and "Full Metal Jacket"
Lol, what the hell, seriously blizzard? What's next? Are you going to registrate "soldier in big ass power armor" and then charge games workshop?
....but blizzard stole their ideas from Warhammer....
On June 09 2010 07:20 Chef wrote: Thanks for this.
“In order to prevent E-SPORTS fans from suffering losses by having leagues shutdown by force, we are doing our best to start negotiations as soon as possible, but kespa and the broadcasting channels have not given us a response, which is very frustrating.”
Honestly, I think this is exactly what should happen. They should try to shut down the individual leagues, and then have the law shoved in their faces when they realise they don't have any right to do so. Sorry, Blizzard, but you can't make up the rules. I don't there's any real law that protects their game from being used in broadcasts, and it doesn't exactly look good that they're 8 years too late.
Even if SC:BW ends because of this, and Blizzard really does have the law on their side, I think that's dying with honour. If these are the last days of BroodWar, I will watch as many games as I can. I'm not going to watch any e-sports run by the ungrateful company Blizzard has become. The word sport can't even be applied to such a ridiculous venture.
To clarify my feelings: I think if only on a matter of principle, KeSPA should not negotiate under these circumstances. Blizzard wants control of an organization they didn't help at all, but that helped them lots. Blizzard is the ultimate brat.
Blizzard hasn't helped KeSPA at all? =/
StarCraft was popular in Korea before KeSPA existed. KeSPA formed around the StarCraft phenomenon. If Blizzard hadn't put an awesome game in the hands of so many Koreans, KeSPA probably wouldn't exist.
from what i've heard, the old blizzard team made starcraft, then they left blizzard because they weren't happy with where the company was going, so i believe the current blizzard didn't give us the old starcraft. but seriously reading that post made me sick
On June 10 2010 05:39 jpak wrote: Well, from what I've garnered here, I have to say this.
Farewell, BW. Thanks for the 12-year ride you've given us.
There's 2 options. 1) Either they don't negotiate and go to court, which means it takes at least a few years to handle this. Bw will continue so long. 2) Kespa makes a deal with blizzard. Bw will continue
So theres no danger fror broodwar in my eyes.
If it was the US, the number 1 option will be feasable. First of all, it takes a year for a case to reach court, and that decision can be appealed 2 or 3 times until u get to the supreme court, so certainly in the U.S.
Not sure about Korea, though.
Oh, and option number 2 is becoming a bit out of reach. Just a bit.
Dont know what your trying to say. It takes a year and more to reach court and it's Blizzard/gretech who will have to go to court to stop the broadcasting, like you said, Bw will be fine so far. And this is Korea , US law plays no role in this scenario.
I said IF.
In another note, I might do a blog on exactly how much it costs to run a progaming team (in Korea) unless someone beats me to it. I would greatly appreciate it if someone can outline how this might go through the Korean court system.
What? How one plays the game does not change the game you are playing. When you start the game does it display starcraft or does it display something else? Whose code are you running? You / We, made nothing. All we did was learn how to play the game optimally. Its like saying tiger woods owns golf, or rafa nadal owns tennis. Thats absurd.
It seems that you don't understand how sports change over the years, its the top players who find new things and then eventually certain aspects become either broken or need adjusting and therefore it does in fact become a player-created game. Its not at all like saying Tiger Woods owns golf but losing him certainly would be a big blow for Pro Golf so its in their best interest to keep him around (the latest scandal made that very clear if you follow sports at all)..
Magic Johnson did not reinvent basketball or turn it into another game because he was the first person to do behind the back dribble. Basketball is still basketball. Just played differently within the same framework. Players finding out how to vulture micro or muta micro did not mean they were no longer playing starcraft. They just found out that starcraft allowed one to do certain things.
Wrong again. Seriously where do you get this stuff? NCAA. Plenty of football (soccer) leagues have started and folded and others have started. Games do not cease to exist because the primary league in one country ceases to exist. Or because somebody else is the only entity capable of showing footage of it.
All due respect, I don't believe you understand the situation.
There's a reason I specifically didn't use NCAA. I foresaw someone saying something like this and picked something that's large-scale but mostly located within a single country hoping someone would respond like this so thanks in a sense. If you have a sport that is already internationally-rooted and you dissolve the original council responsible for game management, team management, etc, then yes eventually it will recover just based on the popularity of the sport. If you are dissolving the governing body or "The Big Cheese" as we'll call it from here on out of a sport or event that does NOT have this kind of popularity or deep-rooted history (E-Sports is even less so than the NBA I should have used like... NFL or something) then the blow is far more severe. Failure to see the minute yet significant differences here will cause your opinion to be wildly offtrack.
Football(american) would still exist if the NFL folded. So you are still wrong. What you do not understand is that one is merely dissolving the governing body. The teams themselves are not necessarily disbanded. Depending on the structure of the league the teams may possibly still exist. In Kespa's case, the teams still exist. It is the component companies that sponsor teams, not kespa directly. We say that kespa sponsors the teams because some components of kespa pays for them, however saying that kespa sponsors the teams is not strictly true it itself.
Kespa can fold, teams and companies will still exist, and can reform.
On June 10 2010 05:39 jpak wrote: Well, from what I've garnered here, I have to say this.
Farewell, BW. Thanks for the 12-year ride you've given us.
There's 2 options. 1) Either they don't negotiate and go to court, which means it takes at least a few years to handle this. Bw will continue so long. 2) Kespa makes a deal with blizzard. Bw will continue
So theres no danger fror broodwar in my eyes.
If it was the US, the number 1 option will be feasable. First of all, it takes a year for a case to reach court, and that decision can be appealed 2 or 3 times until u get to the supreme court, so certainly in the U.S.
Not sure about Korea, though.
Oh, and option number 2 is becoming a bit out of reach. Just a bit.
Dont know what your trying to say. It takes a year and more to reach court and it's Blizzard/gretech who will have to go to court to stop the broadcasting, like you said, Bw will be fine so far. And this is Korea , US law plays no role in this scenario.
dogabutila wrote: Magic Johnson did not reinvent basketball or turn it into another game because he was the first person to do behind the back dribble. Basketball is still basketball. Just played differently within the same framework. Players finding out how to vulture micro or muta micro did not mean they were no longer playing starcraft. They just found out that starcraft allowed one to do certain things.
Its strange that you don't see the new bugs and tricks people found as being something that changes how you play pretty drastically since its a new tool to add to the arsenal. In order for SC:BW to flourish and become what it is today though, it took a lot of adjusting the game itself through patches which is what I was getting at. Eventually rulings on certain discoveries (tools) decided what was "legal" and "illegal" as far as moves go. The whole user-driven patch update system plus the rulings on the new "legal/illegal" moves isn't on par with "This pro player owns the sport because they're good at it". Its more on par with the addition of the 3-point line in basketball, the field goal and extra point in American football, etc. Also you're a little too assuming in your view that taking away the major lead organization of a somewhat localized sport would simply result in them moving on. E-Sports isn't strong yet, this is still going to be a serious blow because everyone is going to be in chaos for a little while until the changing of hands or the changing over is finished.
I'm not siding with either KeSPA or Activision Blizzard on this one. Its important to realize though that this really is a major decision that unless handled very very carefully can easily result in the (at least temporary) destruction of E-sports. To assume anything less would be asking for a bad outcome.
This seems extremely short sighted by KeSPA the more I think about it. They're in a shitty spot that is in no way as good as it was before Blizzard's involvement. They'd love if things stayed the same, but that's not a realistic option at this point. SC2 will move forward and Blizzard will be a huge force behind it. Even if KeSPA holds onto BW, isn't that simply delaying the inevitable and also cutting them out of the pie of SC2 entirely?
If BW fades that would mean they have nothing left. If SC2 goes forward they wont be involved and gain nothing from its success or popularity. Putting all your eggs in one basket seems like a terrible idea.
I have a theory as to why blizzard has given the rights to a korean company regaurding starcraft. Maybe blizzard has the thought in their head (and im sure some of the TL community does too) that if KeSPA takes them to court over IP rights, KeSPA may win the case because KeSPA is a korean company that is well known and the courts would back them up (possibly) over blizzard because they are a well known korean company. But if blizzard throws the rights to another company that is korean, they would have a better chance with them in court. blizzard intellegence +1?
On June 10 2010 15:37 NotGood- wrote: I have a theory as to why blizzard has given the rights to a korean company regaurding starcraft. Maybe blizzard has the thought in their head (and im sure some of the TL community does too) that if KeSPA takes them to court over IP rights, KeSPA may win the case because KeSPA is a korean company that is well known and the courts would back them up (possibly) over blizzard because they are a well known korean company. But if blizzard throws the rights to another company that is korean, they would have a better chance with them in court. blizzard intellegence +1?
This thought has occurred to me as well. I mean, beside the fact that esports (with regard to SC) is pretty much monopolized by Korea (not implying any certain company/firms, simply the evolution of culture) and there would be pretty much no other country that would continue the SC tradition, I think this is another reason as to why this decision was made (to license to another Korean company).
dogabutila wrote: Magic Johnson did not reinvent basketball or turn it into another game because he was the first person to do behind the back dribble. Basketball is still basketball. Just played differently within the same framework. Players finding out how to vulture micro or muta micro did not mean they were no longer playing starcraft. They just found out that starcraft allowed one to do certain things.
Its strange that you don't see the new bugs and tricks people found as being something that changes how you play pretty drastically since its a new tool to add to the arsenal. In order for SC:BW to flourish and become what it is today though, it took a lot of adjusting the game itself through patches which is what I was getting at. Eventually rulings on certain discoveries (tools) decided what was "legal" and "illegal" as far as moves go. The whole user-driven patch update system plus the rulings on the new "legal/illegal" moves isn't on par with "This pro player owns the sport because they're good at it". Its more on par with the addition of the 3-point line in basketball, the field goal and extra point in American football, etc. Also you're a little too assuming in your view that taking away the major lead organization of a somewhat localized sport would simply result in them moving on. E-Sports isn't strong yet, this is still going to be a serious blow because everyone is going to be in chaos for a little while until the changing of hands or the changing over is finished.
I'm not siding with either KeSPA or Activision Blizzard on this one. Its important to realize though that this really is a major decision that unless handled very very carefully can easily result in the (at least temporary) destruction of E-sports. To assume anything less would be asking for a bad outcome.
The game does not magically become something else simply because one finds that it is possible to do something different. New moves, and tricks might change HOW one plays the game, or how one approaches the game. Very rarely does it change the game itself.
What is more comparable, not the addition of a 3 point line (which was actually done for no real reason other then because league officials thought it might be more fun for viewership if they encouraged long shots...not something to do with user driven updates to rules), might possibly be offensive goaltending and dunking. When the first leagues started, there was a fixed height to baskets. As time went on, professional players became taller and more athletic. Eventually they were able to dunk the ball. However, this created a problem in regards to offensive goal tending rules. Previously, the rule had been basically that one could not touch the ball or basket when the ball is above imaginary cylinder above the hoop.
Section I-A Player Shall Not: a. Touch the ball or the basket ring when the ball is using the basket ring as its lower base. b. Touch the ball when it is above the basket ring and within the imaginary cylinder. etc, down to i.
The rules only defined what goaltending (rather, basket interference) was, and if one went straight by the letter of these rules. Obviously though, one cannot goal tend ones own shot by the act of shooting it. So the rule was amended. (or rather, exception added.)
Section I-A Player Shall Not: a. Touch the ball or the basket ring when the ball is using the basket ring as its lower base. EXCEPTION: If a player near his own basket has his hand legally in contact with the ball, it is not a violation if his contact with the ball continues after the ball enters the cylinder, or if, in such action, he touches the basket. b. Touch the ball when it is above the basket ring and within the imaginary cylinder. etc, down to i.
That is real user driven patching. It isn't a major change to rules. There are just clarifications and rulings on legality (much like boxer and allied mines). In this case, an exception had to be added. In other cases rules are changed. However, this is done to keep the game consistent with what the nature of the game should be. Thus, the changes or clarifications are done to keep the game as similar as possible within the framework, and not to create a completely new game.
Indeed, much of the time a change in gameplay or metagame or what is 'possible' changes, yet the rules do not significantly change. Occasionally the rules MUST change to keep the game as similar as possible without breaking the game. The game itself remains the same. Basketball does not become NBA ball because of the rule changes. It is simply still basketball. Basketball that remains as consistent as possible. That is real user driven patching. It isn't a major change to rules. There are just clarifications and rulings on legality (much like boxer and allied mines).
There are historic precedents for major orgs. of localized games disbanding or having to stop organizing for whatever reason, and the game continues to go on.
In regards to Kespa and esports, the dissolution of Kespa will not negatively impact esports. Why? Because another league will be ready to form immediately. There will be no vacuum in which things might die. If (or when) kespa dies. Gretech will immediately step in. The only problem that might possibly prevent Progamers from switching over would be no-compete clauses. Yet this does not even make sense as the contracts are not with Kespa but with the specific team they are on. Kespa will not exist, but samsung will still exist, CJ will still exist, and the teams will continue to be funded by those companies _as they are currently_
Basically, the teams, players, leagues, and broadcasters don't disappear when Kespa dies. Since the teams still exist, and since leagues will still exist, games will likely continue to be played. There is no sense in CJ staying in Kespa and being blocked out from playing when they could withdraw membership from Kespa and join the new league.
Previously, GOM failed because Kespa had the upper hand, in as much as they were the monopoly and GOM was challenging the monopoly. Since broadcasters and leagues are already part of Kespa they did not want a threat to their ability to make money and shut the new league down. Yet in this new 2010 case, it is the new league with the ability to keep the monopoly from doing what they do to make money. Gretech holds all the cards; Kespa will have to negotiate or they will disband. The teams will eventually make their way to the new GOM league, or players contracts will expire and move to the new leagues.
On June 10 2010 12:48 theramstoss wrote: 99% of Korean netizens are siding against KeSPA, just so you guys know.
interesting, I would be interested to hear what their take on activision-blizzard is.
I cant help but wonder if this isnt a double case of reverse "the devil you know is worse than the one you dont".
maybe its easy for us outside of korea to look at activision-blizzard as being the bad guy because they are who we interact with, and the koreans look at kespa as being the bad guys because that's who they interact with.
Also, I would appreciate if you could confirm that most koreans with interest are siding against kespa. Not that I dont believe you, but I might like to know where this sentiment is coming from.
The thing is, "esports" can continue without game developers, but it can NOT continue without sponsors. Which is, frankly, too bad.
On June 10 2010 23:39 red_b wrote: The thing is, "esports" can continue without game developers, but it can NOT continue without sponsors. Which is, frankly, too bad.
I disagree. "E-Sports" can't continue without both. However, it can continue without a 3rd party like KeSPA.
On June 10 2010 23:39 red_b wrote: The thing is, "esports" can continue without game developers, but it can NOT continue without sponsors. Which is, frankly, too bad.
I disagree. "E-Sports" can't continue without both. However, it can continue without a 3rd party like KeSPA.
you're right, I was not being clear.
"esports" can continue without specific developers (e.g. blizzard), but it cannot with sponsors in general. and kespa is the sponsor(s) for brood war.
this makes me happy. changes are so exciting, regardless of the outcome! i would be more happy if kespa just made a deal with blizzard (now gretech), but that is something that only kespa decides.
I don't think blizzard wants sc1 to go away at all and in fact I believe they are counting on it continuing. Like I said in another post, blizzard's best bet and goal is to not shut down the leagues but to add some sort of requirement in order to promote sc2. For example they may give unlimited broadcasting rights as long as they spend 10% of the live coverage discussing or promoting sc2. Blizzard is a smart company and they will do whatever is best for sc2. Upsetting sc1 fans is not something that is good for profits. Promoting sc2 during sc1 games is.
On June 09 2010 06:43 Plexa wrote: This is a disgusting situation. If things don't improve, all the people the article talked about at the end could lose their livelihood. I mean, does gretech intend to continue the SC1 scene? I would hate to see our beloved game die due to politics.
I agree wholeheartedly Plexa.
But as for the OP, I do not think this is simply KeSPA's ego getting in the way. There is no guarantee that a Korean Court will uphold the supposed IP rights of Blizzard. So really, I don't see that they ever have to negotiate with Blizzard.
On June 11 2010 03:45 darmousseh wrote: Blizzard is a smart company and they will do whatever is best for sc2. Upsetting sc1 fans is not something that is good for profits. Promoting sc2 during sc1 games is.
Ownership. Game clients and Service. The Game clients and the Service (including without limitation any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, documentation, in-game chat transcripts, character profile information, recordings or replays of Games, and the Game client and server software) are copyrighted works owned by Blizzard and its licensors.
and by extension blizzard claiming they own replays makes my analogy about Adobe trying to claim owenership of pictures made in photoshop is a valid one.
You do realize that if you're right, that means anybody can make derivative novels, games or movies based on Disney characters like Mickey Mouse, right? They don't because Disney will sue them.
Adobe makes publishing software. That's a completely different type of IP than creative works.
I wonder if anyone from Blizzard is even on KeSPA's board of directors. Legally, I think Blizzard has the overall advantage to the rights, but you know how any legal system can be influenced or corrupted. As for people pondering or complaining about Blizzard's recent moves against E-Sports, it's just to protect their rights and their property. If the majority of an E-Sports scene was built upon violating people's rights and property, it just sends a red flag. I do have sympathy for the progamers if this drastically changes to a point where they can no longer have a stable sponsorship. I know that SC/BW wasn't created specifically for E-sports, but when you install the game, you agree to the EULA. Just like World of Warcraft, I can pay $15 USD a month to play, and I can get banned for no reason by Blizzard. Might not be good for business, but they have the right to it since you agreed to the EULA.
Got to remember when Blizzard started negotiating with KeSPA. I think Blizzard had thoughts about their IP rights being violated long before early 2007, but didn't start negotiating until around the time SC2 was announced, because it was a new game intended support for E-Sports.
Somehow, I do get the feeling that if Blizzard retains their SC/BW IPs and maintains SC2 IP, they will later patch in LAN support on SC2.
look at all the korean law experts on tl.net...sc and google are the same age...blizzard's sudden interest in its relatively ancient RTS IP is transparent to all observing...
blizzard is really falling off a cliff here...wc3 was a mediocre product, sc2 just might be worse...now they're making some powerplay that - whether INTENTIONAL OR NOT - is likely to severely damage or kill outright the korean esports scene....a scene admired and beloved of tens if not hundreds of thousands of international fans outside of korea...they should have shown some integrity and put sc2 head to head with bw - let the better product win...instead they flinched, doubted themselves, and created this situation...they've been exposed, sc/bw was clearly a fluke...these are merely the symptoms of the slow, grinding decay of their accidental RTS supremacy...
On June 09 2010 06:56 Veil wrote: Think Gretech or Blizzard would take up the reins regarding all aspects of E-sports after Kespa is gone?
Long as E-sports and Pro-teams grow in the future, I don't really care who is running it.
Except that if KeSPA loses, there will be no one to sponsor the teams. T___T
This.... I think we may end up with a lose-lose situation, either that or a lose- win for a very short period of time. I hope some thing good comes out of this.
Dogabutila, not a lot of people think SC2 as a game itself is terrible. It certainly had a huge advantage of learning from its predecessor. What we think will suck and be terrible is Bnet 2.0. Even the pros agree with the majority-population on this.
If this goes to court and SK rules against Vindevi (Blizzard/activision/multibillion dollar multimedia corporation) it will be a huge slap in the face to pretty much every american company out there in terms of IP rights - and deal a huge blow to korean international trade as American software development giants stop regarding SK as a major market that they can control their product in.
Let us not forget that the US basically keeps SK from being overrun by NK. In terms of foreign policy, reducing trade with a critical strategic ally is never a good thing. Even if the courts did rule against Vindevi, I would expect prompt legislation changes as American politicians were lobbied by Vindevi and other electronic giants to put political pressure on SK.
Blizzard holds all the cards and they know it. Yes, they are trying to make money. The major reason they care about e-sports is so that they can open up a new market and make money off of it. If other organizations want to make a few bucks along the way, Blizzard understands the need for middlemen.
From what I've seen, I think the issue isn't money RIGHT NOW. It's precedent. If they let KESPA get away with just paying them a royalty sum, Blizzard will only ever be in a position to collect royalties. That's not a super lucrative market and leaves you vulnerable. What Blizzard wants is to be able to directly make money off tournaments, with advertising and especially make sure that Blizzard doesn't have to deal with any organizational equals when it comes to starcraft.
Let us not forget that the US basically keeps SK from being overrun by NK.
You really... REALLY need to learn more about the international relationships between SK/NK/China/USA if you seriously think this is how it works. A statement like this might as well have been "I have no idea what the political and military situation is like between SK/USA, nor do I have any clues about the history of the SK/NK conflicts.".
If other organizations want to make a few bucks along the way, Blizzard understands the need for middlemen.
This is based off of the assumption that Activision Blizzard isn't asking for complete control or at least attempting to establish near-to-complete control. Not that I'm saying they are, I'm pointing out that you're one of the people I'm talking about who has opinions based on assumptions that aren't based on any facts. Yeah, it might make sense to you but its still not based on anything solid.
What Blizzard wants is to be able to directly make money off tournaments, with advertising and especially make sure that Blizzard doesn't have to deal with any organizational equals when it comes to starcraft
If Activision Blizzard keeps up corporate bullying and making things like Infinite Ward happen, its not the clientel that will give up on them (there's too many kids/stupid people out there with money they can access), its the developers themselves who will take a step back and think about working for someone who thinks nothing of making them jobless or futureless. Also as it stands, they aren't in any danger of being taken over in popularity in the E-Sports scene because of the success of BW and the steps that were taken to make it the #1 E-Sport game. Their move to make SC2 the new BW isn't going so well and I personally think they'll be in danger of being taken over by the FPS scene.
On June 11 2010 17:30 Diminotoor wrote: Dogabutila, not a lot of people think SC2 as a game itself is terrible. It certainly had a huge advantage of learning from its predecessor. What we think will suck and be terrible is Bnet 2.0. Even the pros agree with the majority-population on this.
I could show you many whine threads. There are a few less now that beta is down. But I don't think it is fair to say 'not a lot'. What we've seen of Bnet 2.0 has never been the complete thing so far.
For example, Blizz took out adding by sn. Why? Not because they only want realid email or facebook to be your adding options. But because they wanted people to use those options so they could test them and make sure they worked properly.
I know the two biggest complaints about 2.0 is the lack of cross-realm play (what might that mean for D3) and the lack of chat channels. Really though, the lack of chat channels never bothered me. Other games don't have chat channels. Use vent outside of the game, or make a big party...plenty of workarounds. Having said that, I don't think SC2 will lack chat channels for it's entire lifespan.
The lack of cross-realm play is the more significant problem, and the one that is less likely to be solved.
This is getting annoying. Half the posts here whine how kespa is/was making huge money off SC. As far as I know kespa claims to be a non profit organization itself and that it reinvests all the money into the scene. Now everyone has the option of non-belief, but stop spouting about all the $$$ kespa makes without challenging the fact that is says that it does not.
On the issue at hand my guess would be that GOM signed similar conditions blizavision was offering to kespa, i.e. total control, everything belongs to us, etc. And that kespa has already decided to go to court in SK to challenge blizavision's interpretation of their IP rights. No point in negotiating anything which fits the current situation nicely.
The Korean E-SPORTS scene is the fruit of 10 years of hard-work from its players, fans and sponsors, but all this can crumble in one moment if leagues start having trouble continuing due to lack of negotiations stemming from power struggles or ego battles.
boy, it's hard to take journalism seriously nowadays. putting all the blame on one party when blizzard's ultimatum and unwillingness to budge could easily be called out too.
i'm not trying to take one side or the other, but that paragraph is so blatantly biased it's almost funny.
the analogy is like the mafia coming to your house and demanding protection money with your daughter to a knife, and then saying "are you going to hurt your daughter for your pride?" YEAHH.... i suppose you could say it's his pride causing his daughter harm and he should just pay up... but really, what about the the mafia who is making the demands in the first place, and the powerlessness of the father?
i have a question. let's hear some more terms of the deal between gretech and blizzard, instead of this blatantly one sided excuse for an article.
Having said that, I don't think SC2 will lack chat channels for it's entire lifespan.
The lack of cross-realm play is the more significant problem, and the one that is less likely to be solved.
I underestimated your investigative and reasoning skills many times over since our little post-for-post discussion, for this I apologize. I agree 100% with this, which is unfortunate (for us). If you read the webpost:
This is probably the most well-written concern-post I've read to date. This is so well-written and taken from an Activision-Blizzard perspective that its already in a form that probably could be submitted to their offices and they might actually bother to read it. In this, basically we're given hope that "yeah we can add chat channels but... really? you guys really want them?". Its the same sort of "down-talk" that got them here with us in the first place, but at least it shows that message got through. As for the cross-realm play, that's the #1 gripe I have with it. I have many friends across South Korea, China, and Japan. Based on the current system, I literally am being forced to choose between playing with them or playing with my American friends (which is where I live now). Its the very definition of "This sucks".
Getting back on the track of the OP though, its still not known to us what's being asked of either side in these "negotiations". Until then I'm basically going to step out of the conversation until more concrete information is put into our hands.
Anyone else remember when Nintendo tried to shut down Daily Radar because they hosted Pokemon FAQs?
My first thought was "ok, so what if someone made a TV show where people got points for listening to Coldplay CDs, isn't that copyright infringement?" But then, we're not playing Starcraft when we watch the show. It's a game and we're just watching it being played. So it's like we're watching people listen to Coldplay on headphones, and we can't hear it. And the show doesn't even have "Coldplay" in the title. The announcers on the show just mention the name Coldplay sometimes, and reference the names of songs, and the album cover appears in the bottom right corner.
The album cover in the bottom right corner is what Blizzard is fighting with Kespa over now. They're saying that they have ownership of the art and that Kespa is reproducing it without permission. Well, they were literally aware of the fact that the art was being used in this way for years and years. Did they do nothing? Failing to protect your copyright has big implications, whether they like it or not.
Murphy's law is in effect now. This isn't going to end well. I don't understand KeSpa in this at all, why not negotiate? MBC is already negotiating, why not follow suit? Damn stubborn guys over there.
you know it sucks that we see all these articles involving money and copy rights these days, but blizzard did invest a good amount of money developing the game and maintaining for so long that kespa, who really makes a lot of money out of SC should pay blizzard for the copy right fee.
blizzard invested ALOT more money in SC2 hoping it'll be successful not only in selling the game, but also in e-sports development. if a broadcasting company simply broadcast the game tourneys without any compensation to blizzard, blizzard might say "oh, i guess we wont make any money out of starcraft games, might as well stop investing on SC series at all and go all in with World of Warcraft."
so many times do we see the article talking crap about blizzard for being so greedy, but good games like SC2 come out BECAUSE they are so greedy, and they think with good games, people will spend money on their product even when they feel cheated. I just hope that they don't go overboard, and so far, what blizzard is doing is at least kind of reasonable.
You really... REALLY need to learn more about the international relationships between SK/NK/China/USA if you seriously think this is how it works. A statement like this might as well have been "I have no idea what the political and military situation is like between SK/USA, nor do I have any clues about the history of the SK/NK conflicts.".
Please enlighten me. I was under the impression that US-China relationships are at an all time high with massive trade accross the pacific ocean, interlocked financial institutions and rapid growth in asia - meaning that neither party will piss the other one off. I was also under the impression that North Korea had a massive military force in terms of manpower, located directly adjacent to SK's border, and consistent announcements that they want to invade SK and reclaim the peninsula. Meanwhile, SK imports the majority of its high technology weapons from the United States and other western powers, and relies on US military bases in the region and joint excersies to demonstrate strength.
So yeah, I thought that because the US population has been relativly exhausted by the wars in afghanistan and Iraq and politicians would have a hell of a time getting the population to support a korean war.
Yes, I know the situation is complicated by my point is that the US and SK are important partners, and that if SK flagrantly violated US intellectual rights this would be BAD for the SK, and have much farther reaching consequences than just for Blizzard.
On June 12 2010 02:06 Diminotoor wrote: This is based off of the assumption that Activision Blizzard isn't asking for complete control or at least attempting to establish near-to-complete control. Not that I'm saying they are, I'm pointing out that you're one of the people I'm talking about who has opinions based on assumptions that aren't based on any facts. Yeah, it might make sense to you but its still not based on anything solid.
It's based on a logical arguement with the assumption that Blizzard is a reasonable company that isn't pursuing total vertical integration and all the nightmares and headaches that will create. You know what, I'm sure they ARE asking for complete control, or at least complete executive power. I have no problem with that.
On June 12 2010 02:06 Diminotoor wrote:If Activision Blizzard keeps up corporate bullying and making things like Infinite Ward happen, its not the clientel that will give up on them (there's too many kids/stupid people out there with money they can access), its the developers themselves who will take a step back and think about working for someone who thinks nothing of making them jobless or futureless.
Really? The developers are going to leave their jobs developing great games because shit happened to a few of their friends? I don't know what kind of job you have but I've never worked anywhere that people would just quit their jobs because they suddenly realized they work for a corperation that cares about the bottom line.
On June 12 2010 02:06 Diminotoor wrote:Also as it stands, they aren't in any danger of being taken over in popularity in the E-Sports scene because of the success of BW and the steps that were taken to make it the #1 E-Sport game. Their move to make SC2 the new BW isn't going so well and I personally think they'll be in danger of being taken over by the FPS scene.
Last I checked Vindevi games owned both CoD and WoW. RTS games faded a long time ago in the most lucrative markets (united states).
I have a feeling KeSPA has a much better game plan than most here are crediting them with. They know the court system in Korea better than any of us or blizzard themselves. This probably the beginning of a long drawn out stall plan, to drag out litigation to till the death of BW. This is assuming they don't have reason to believe the final court rulings will favor them anyway. While sc2 may be blizzard's, i think for all practical purposes (whether its legally right or not), sc1 e-sports will belong to KeSPA for many years, if not forever.
Aww man you're really gonna make me do one of these "break your post apart piece by piece and research every aspect of it" things aren't you? -_-
On June 14 2010 22:43 sikyon wrote:
Please enlighten me. I was under the impression that US-China relationships are at an all time high with massive trade accross the pacific ocean, interlocked financial institutions and rapid growth in asia - meaning that neither party will piss the other one off. I was also under the impression that North Korea had a massive military force in terms of manpower, located directly adjacent to SK's border, and consistent announcements that they want to invade SK and reclaim the peninsula. Meanwhile, SK imports the majority of its high technology weapons from the United States and other western powers, and relies on US military bases in the region and joint excersies to demonstrate strength.
So yeah, I thought that because the US population has been relativly exhausted by the wars in afghanistan and Iraq and politicians would have a hell of a time getting the population to support a korean war.
Yes, I know the situation is complicated by my point is that the US and SK are important partners, and that if SK flagrantly violated US intellectual rights this would be BAD for the SK, and have much farther reaching consequences than just for Blizzard.
They currently have SK in numbers this is true but overall its very obvious who has more in reserve they can pull from. North Korean Military Strength and South Korean Military Strength aren't that comparative because of the financial status of the two countries. I think you seriously underestimate the amount of restrictions that NK has to place on its people just to maintain control of them in the hereditary dictatorship fashion that they currently have for a government. Just to give you an idea on how far behind they are on technology, on June 11th of this year they're just now starting to implement the internet for their government. Do you understand what an informational and technological black hole you have to be to JUST NOW be getting the internet? Also its not even for its people, its just for the government.
As for the US being the gigantic military supplier (aka you're talking about their imports), we're actually their third in trade. Facts on South Korea state that their number one contributor in imports is actually China, followed closely by Japan, and then less than half of the imports by China or Japan is USA. North Korea is practically in poverty technologically and economically. Their growth rate is approximately .2% annually while SK has a 3.7% growth rate. The spending ability is ridiculously different and the overall strength is unbelievably different. NK has put so much into their military that they have almost no investments, civilian consumption, or foreign trade markets. To put this in Starcraft terms, its like going for a Sparks Terran build with no ups against a Protoss who already has 3 bases running, 15 gates and full tech, but has just been probing it up for a while.
The NK economy is so all-in in its military spending, did you know that only 3% of their labor force is in agriculture? That means they have like... NO FOOD. Do you know what happens when a country with no food and a horrible economy goes all-in in a war? That initial push hurts, but if the battle gets drawn out even a little bit, they crumble. Yes NK relies heavily on China backing it up economically but right now I'm pretty sure China isn't too happy with NK killing its citizens. Its not in either country's best interests to be getting into a war because it'll just be a huge exchange of fire that results in nothing but a lot of pointless loss of lives and a re-negotiation at the table. Also both nations are relying on foreign support to gain a significant advantage over the other. SK knows its current military strength is about half of NK's but they have a much bigger and stronger pool to pull from. NK knows its military strength could deal a significant amount of damage but they have no longevity. Both Koreas know that this all basically comes down to foreign support to gain an advantage so big, the other wouldn't even consider an engagement. This doesn't mean that the two Koreas rely on foreign support just to survive such a confrontation. Believe me if your homeland is under fire, you see a wave of patriotism amongst your people the likes of which we haven't seen since WW2. SK's military would multiply several times over in a matter of months.
Also last note, I seriously doubt that the decision being made over the Starcraft franchise would be the least bit of a blow to US-SK relations in a manner that would bring about the Second Korean Conflict.
sikyon wrote:
It's based on a logical arguement with the assumption that Blizzard is a reasonable company that isn't pursuing total vertical integration and all the nightmares and headaches that will create. You know what, I'm sure they ARE asking for complete control, or at least complete executive power. I have no problem with that.
Your opinions are too tainted towards 1-side for you to sit back and realize what's really going on. If you take a third-person perspective of this, such a demand would be out of the question for KeSPA. Being too absolute in the demands of either side means that both parties are too immature and unintelligent to think of the possibility of a compromise. I refuse to believe that these companies are comprised of individuals too stupid to realize this but apparently you are ok with it.
sikyon wrote:
Really? The developers are going to leave their jobs developing great games because shit happened to a few of their friends? I don't know what kind of job you have but I've never worked anywhere that people would just quit their jobs because they suddenly realized they work for a corperation that cares about the bottom line.
Once again your viewpoint is skewed in such a fashion that it doesn't let you see the big picture. If a company repeatedly dissolves departments that create these "great games" and scenes/markets for their games, then eventually noone will want to do business with them because of their public image. If a company that has a steady 5% annual growth rate and offers you a salary of $65,000 also has a record where they dissolved 3 departments and fired all their workers immediately afterwards, how is it a smart decision to pick that over say a company with a 3% annual growth rate and a salary of $45,000 but doesn't dissolve its side-companies? Maybe I'm just getting too old or too wrapped up in the desire for stability in my life, but it seems like a very clear decision to me. There's always another company out there that may not be able to offer you as much, but will offer you a steady job and source of income for good service. Not every company is like Walmart (Look up Walmart's history of employment and the hoops they've had to jump through because of what they did as a corporation).
sikyon wrote:
Last I checked Vindevi games owned both CoD and WoW. RTS games faded a long time ago in the most lucrative markets (united states).
WoW is slipping (and isn't an E-sport) and CoD isn't the E-sport FPS; Counter-Strike is. RTS will never die as long as intelligent people exist to play them. I'm sorry but I just don't see the scene as bleak as you do. I see us pulling through this and developing an E-Sport scene that eventually reaches the far corners of the planet. Neither side can claim they are fighting for this scene since they clearly only have their own interests in mind. I'd like to see big channels for E-Sports all over the world and being able to pursue pro-gaming as a profession world-wide in say 2-3 decades. Maybe you're right though and I'm really alone on this standpoint.
but in the case of Starcraft it's crystal clear, Blizzard invented it, they perfected and balanced it over many years, they own it
... SC:BW became a phenomenon that Blizzard could never have predicted ahead-of-time. The way strategy has progressed, the subtle techniques used, and the overall evolution of how to play BW "properly" came about solely because of a large faithful playerbase who continued to work and fine-tune it. If you were active in the scene when SC1 first hit the shelves, you would know that today's BW isn't "Blizzard's game" ...
What? How one plays the game does not change the game you are playing. When you start the game does it display starcraft or does it display something else? Whose code are you running? You / We, made nothing. All we did was learn how to play the game optimally. Its like saying tiger woods owns golf, or rafa nadal owns tennis. Thats absurd.
As I see it, the author means, that game balance is a product of common efforts of developers and community of progamers, who were finding bugs, exploits, who reported imbalance and stuff. It's like they were testing product and writing technical task for developers about what should be changed and how.
So, that's not absurd. About perfect game balance, in part, is a result of community efforts, so those claiming that about perfect game balance was created by blizzard aren't right exactly. Yes, by Blizzard, but without community game balance wouldn't reach that high degree.
Besides, as a SC BW gamer and old lover, I vote for KeSPA, because in this particular case its interests are closer to regular SC BW gamer intertests, than those of Blizzard.
I hope Blizzard's attempts will fail, SC2 will be screwed, and SC BW leagues will stay the same as they are today or even better.
On June 15 2010 19:04 Leo Sosnine wrote: I hope Blizzard's attempts will fail, SC2 will be screwed, and SC BW leagues will stay the same as they are today or even better.
That is so backwards. You don't like the direction PROGRESS is going, so instead you would rather it be destroyed. Thats the same logic used by fundamentalist terrorists.
On June 15 2010 19:04 Leo Sosnine wrote: I hope Blizzard's attempts will fail, SC2 will be screwed, and SC BW leagues will stay the same as they are today or even better.
That is so backwards. You don't like the direction PROGRESS is going, so instead you would rather it be destroyed. Thats the same logic used by fundamentalist terrorists.
Lol, that last sentence is totally uncalled for.
Besides, in some way I agree with the idea that if SC2 is not going to improve the progaming scene, well, I'd rather have it fail as PROGAMING material and have BW go on. Not saying that the game should crash, but just not be successful as a progaming option if it is not going to improve what we actually have.
On June 15 2010 20:04 JustAnotherKnave wrote: That is so backwards. You don't like the direction PROGRESS is going, so instead you would rather it be destroyed. Thats the same logic used by fundamentalist terrorists.
Well, progress can take different forms, and not always newer means better. Who knows, maybe it is such a case. W3, IMO, sucked as a cybersport platform. So maybe SC2 will suck even more, while SC pro matches still amaze me when I watch them. New strategies evolve, etc. I like it, so it is logical for me to try to retain thing that pleasures me, how do you think. I like that, and I don't like W3 and SC2.
You wouldn't seriously expect me to vote for things I dislike. And that passage about fundamentalist terrorists just rocks. Really, what if I seize an airplane and direct it to some tower, trying to persuade Blizzard to get away from e-sports, huh.
but in the case of Starcraft it's crystal clear, Blizzard invented it, they perfected and balanced it over many years, they own it
... SC:BW became a phenomenon that Blizzard could never have predicted ahead-of-time. The way strategy has progressed, the subtle techniques used, and the overall evolution of how to play BW "properly" came about solely because of a large faithful playerbase who continued to work and fine-tune it. If you were active in the scene when SC1 first hit the shelves, you would know that today's BW isn't "Blizzard's game" ...
What? How one plays the game does not change the game you are playing. When you start the game does it display starcraft or does it display something else? Whose code are you running? You / We, made nothing. All we did was learn how to play the game optimally. Its like saying tiger woods owns golf, or rafa nadal owns tennis. Thats absurd.
As I see it, the author means, that game balance is a product of common efforts of developers and community of progamers, who were finding bugs, exploits, who reported imbalance and stuff. It's like they were testing product and writing technical task for developers about what should be changed and how.
So, that's not absurd. About perfect game balance, in part, is a result of community efforts, so those claiming that about perfect game balance was created by blizzard aren't right exactly. Yes, by Blizzard, but without community game balance wouldn't reach that high degree.
Besides, as a SC BW gamer and old lover, I vote for KeSPA, because in this particular case its interests are closer to regular SC BW gamer intertests, than those of Blizzard.
I hope Blizzard's attempts will fail, SC2 will be screwed, and SC BW leagues will stay the same as they are today or even better.
I can't believe more than one person would try to argue such a ridicules point. How does helping blizzard balance their game by playing it offering feedback, have anything to do with who owns the IP rights? It is absurd to suggest pro gamers have any kind of IP claim to starcraft because they graced the game with their presence. You can argue that Blizzard is being ungrateful, but not in the legal wrong.
On June 15 2010 23:05 D3lta wrote: How does helping blizzard balance their game by playing it offering feedback, have anything to do with who owns the IP rights? It is absurd to suggest pro gamers have any kind of IP claim to starcraft because they graced the game with their presence. You can argue that Blizzard is being ungrateful, but not in the legal wrong.
I don't care about IP rights at all, I am IP abuser myself, because I don't think current situation with IP in the world is fair. Nor I care about IP laws.
I just explained why aforementioned American guy from SK thinks that game balance is in part a result of community efforts, so statements like "this game was developed by bliz" aren't fully correct.
Communities put their effort in this game, without them the game wouldn't be like it is nowadays, so community (and KeSPA beside them) deserve some fair credit.
I just explained why aforementioned American guy from SK thinks that game balance is in part a result of community efforts, so statements like "this game was developed by bliz" aren't fully correct.
Thanks for helping put it into perspective. Its very difficult for my limited English to explain such complex things with good enough detail to help others understand.
How does helping blizzard balance their game by playing it offering feedback, have anything to do with who owns the IP rights? It is absurd to suggest pro gamers have any kind of IP claim to starcraft because they graced the game with their presence.
If anything, the world speaks with one voice that IP rights don't matter at all. Pirating media is all the rage these days and you can get just about anything for free very shortly after it comes out.
You know what? I still blame Activision. Blizzard and Kespa have co-existed for a long time and then Activision comes in and everything goes to hell. I'm all for Gom.tv having more power but I don't want Kespa to be shut down.
On June 16 2010 14:43 shieldbreak wrote: You know what? I still blame Activision. Blizzard and Kespa have co-existed for a long time and then Activision comes in and everything goes to hell. I'm all for Gom.tv having more power but I don't want Kespa to be shut down.
I agree. Pre-activision Blizzard would have had no problem allowing SC1 tournaments to keep going as they knew that esports has a value beyond money. Activision, however, doesn't give a fuck about anything unless it has dollar signs on it.
Having said that, I don't think SC2 will lack chat channels for it's entire lifespan.
The lack of cross-realm play is the more significant problem, and the one that is less likely to be solved.
I underestimated your investigative and reasoning skills many times over since our little post-for-post discussion, for this I apologize. I agree 100% with this, which is unfortunate (for us). If you read the webpost:
This is probably the most well-written concern-post I've read to date. This is so well-written and taken from an Activision-Blizzard perspective that its already in a form that probably could be submitted to their offices and they might actually bother to read it. In this, basically we're given hope that "yeah we can add chat channels but... really? you guys really want them?". Its the same sort of "down-talk" that got them here with us in the first place, but at least it shows that message got through. As for the cross-realm play, that's the #1 gripe I have with it. I have many friends across South Korea, China, and Japan. Based on the current system, I literally am being forced to choose between playing with them or playing with my American friends (which is where I live now). Its the very definition of "This sucks".
Getting back on the track of the OP though, its still not known to us what's being asked of either side in these "negotiations". Until then I'm basically going to step out of the conversation until more concrete information is put into our hands.
I still think we are going to get chatrooms before cross realm play though, just an easier problem to work on. Yet it is good to note that blizz does actually take feedback. Many companies actually do not care what the community wants. We might not get everything we want, when we want it, exactly how we want it. but atleast blizz listens.
On June 15 2010 23:05 D3lta wrote: How does helping blizzard balance their game by playing it offering feedback, have anything to do with who owns the IP rights? It is absurd to suggest pro gamers have any kind of IP claim to starcraft because they graced the game with their presence. You can argue that Blizzard is being ungrateful, but not in the legal wrong.
I don't care about IP rights at all, I am IP abuser myself, because I don't think current situation with IP in the world is fair. Nor I care about IP laws.
I just explained why aforementioned American guy from SK thinks that game balance is in part a result of community efforts, so statements like "this game was developed by bliz" aren't fully correct.
Communities put their effort in this game, without them the game wouldn't be like it is nowadays, so community (and KeSPA beside them) deserve some fair credit.
You might not carea bout IP rights, but that does not negate the fact that they do exist, and are important for businesses to stay in operation. Or for musicians, or artists. Or inventors. If IP rights did not exist, there would be no motivation to make the next big thing or invent the next new cool technology. You might have gripes with how IP laws are worked right now (for the record I don't much necessarily like IP laws as they currently stand either), but the bottom line is that some form of IP rights are necessary for technological advancement.
Yes game balance was built upon by the community, but again learning how to play the game optimally does not mean you developed the game. Or had any hand in development of said game. The only time communities can take credit for game development (along with the original developers) is when they patch or mod abandonedware or other games that the original developer encourages mods for (like CS 1.6).
What it comes down to is the fact that the game balance was always there. There was no editing of unit strengths or abilities that blizzard did not do. Game balance comes by 2 things. Optimal play as a response to certain actions by the opponent, and maps.
In the first, the optimal response has always existed, yet it might not have been discovered or played or used etc. This might be because strategies might not yet have been developed or because players might not have enough control to apply the strats. In any event, claiming that players or the communities deserve some credit for development by finding the optimal way of playing is like claiming that the first person to find the best sniping spot in some FPS game should get credit for development as well. It just does not make any sense.
In regards to maps: Certain attributes to maps make them more or less favored towards certain races. For example, how the minerals are situated in regards to cliffs, or air distance between bases, ledges that tanks can be placed on to give a commanding view, etc. Yet as the game has progressed and different maps have been made. The players have adapted and abused features of maps to turn some maps to favor their race. In effect, because of the evolving optimum play a map that might be considered imbalanced at one point may later be found to be balanced. One might say that the game requires a map that incorporates this and this and this to be balanced, yet perhaps an imbalanced map might appear and Flash (or Jaedong [or insert fave progamer]) might find a revolutionary new way to play to turn a seeming imbalance around to favor their race. Then old "standard" maps that might have been fair before are no longer playable because they would (might) be imbalanced. Optimum play also deals with maps. In any event, a claim that the creation of maps should give some form of IP credit is also ridiculous. Blizzard included the map creation tool to give users the ability to create maps, and using it to create maps to play on is merely part of the game itself. (see UMS games)
I just explained why aforementioned American guy from SK thinks that game balance is in part a result of community efforts, so statements like "this game was developed by bliz" aren't fully correct.
Thanks for helping put it into perspective. Its very difficult for my limited English to explain such complex things with good enough detail to help others understand.
How does helping blizzard balance their game by playing it offering feedback, have anything to do with who owns the IP rights? It is absurd to suggest pro gamers have any kind of IP claim to starcraft because they graced the game with their presence.
If anything, the world speaks with one voice that IP rights don't matter at all. Pirating media is all the rage these days and you can get just about anything for free very shortly after it comes out.
Yet just because some segment of people enjoy breaking the law to do something does not mean those laws should not (or do not) exist. It's all the rage among some people to smoke weed, yet just as blizzard might sue you for infringing their IP, the American federal government will still arrest your ass for possession of drugs etc. What we (people, consumers, citizens etc) want is what we want. However it does not change the laws we have to live by, and the rules of fairness. When somebody does something special, it should be recognized and rewarded as such.
//btw your english is actually rather good. There are plenty of natural english speakers with a poorer grasp of the language then you have. If it is any encouragement, english is also my second language.
Blizzard: Kespa you need to make Starcraft 2 tournaments only cuz we wanna sell our fucking product
Kespa: WTF? We cant just drop sc1, fans will hate us for that!
Blizzard: hmmmmm......Ok heres the deal: we sell the rights to an other company that will pay much in hope for selling you the sublicense then u just host sc2 tournaments they are fucked up with useless shit and starcraft is gone now we can move on with sc2 =)
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/board/issue/1275976818_1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/board/issue/1275977920_1.jpg)
and face no repercussions? Maybe they know something we don't. Like the courts won't let them lose?
