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Russian Federation8 Posts
On June 15 2010 20:04 JustAnotherKnave wrote:
That is so backwards. You don't like the direction PROGRESS is going, so instead you would rather it be destroyed. Thats the same logic used by fundamentalist terrorists.
Well, progress can take different forms, and not always newer means better. Who knows, maybe it is such a case. W3, IMO, sucked as a cybersport platform. So maybe SC2 will suck even more, while SC pro matches still amaze me when I watch them. New strategies evolve, etc. I like it, so it is logical for me to try to retain thing that pleasures me, how do you think. I like that, and I don't like W3 and SC2.
You wouldn't seriously expect me to vote for things I dislike. And that passage about fundamentalist terrorists just rocks. Really, what if I seize an airplane and direct it to some tower, trying to persuade Blizzard to get away from e-sports, huh.
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On June 15 2010 19:04 Leo Sosnine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2010 17:34 dogabutila wrote:On June 09 2010 14:00 Diminotoor wrote:but in the case of Starcraft it's crystal clear, Blizzard invented it, they perfected and balanced it over many years, they own it ... SC:BW became a phenomenon that Blizzard could never have predicted ahead-of-time. The way strategy has progressed, the subtle techniques used, and the overall evolution of how to play BW "properly" came about solely because of a large faithful playerbase who continued to work and fine-tune it. If you were active in the scene when SC1 first hit the shelves, you would know that today's BW isn't "Blizzard's game" ... What? How one plays the game does not change the game you are playing. When you start the game does it display starcraft or does it display something else? Whose code are you running? You / We, made nothing. All we did was learn how to play the game optimally. Its like saying tiger woods owns golf, or rafa nadal owns tennis. Thats absurd. As I see it, the author means, that game balance is a product of common efforts of developers and community of progamers, who were finding bugs, exploits, who reported imbalance and stuff. It's like they were testing product and writing technical task for developers about what should be changed and how. So, that's not absurd. About perfect game balance, in part, is a result of community efforts, so those claiming that about perfect game balance was created by blizzard aren't right exactly. Yes, by Blizzard, but without community game balance wouldn't reach that high degree. Besides, as a SC BW gamer and old lover, I vote for KeSPA, because in this particular case its interests are closer to regular SC BW gamer intertests, than those of Blizzard. I hope Blizzard's attempts will fail, SC2 will be screwed, and SC BW leagues will stay the same as they are today or even better.
I can't believe more than one person would try to argue such a ridicules point. How does helping blizzard balance their game by playing it offering feedback, have anything to do with who owns the IP rights? It is absurd to suggest pro gamers have any kind of IP claim to starcraft because they graced the game with their presence. You can argue that Blizzard is being ungrateful, but not in the legal wrong.
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Russian Federation8 Posts
On June 15 2010 23:05 D3lta wrote:
How does helping blizzard balance their game by playing it offering feedback, have anything to do with who owns the IP rights? It is absurd to suggest pro gamers have any kind of IP claim to starcraft because they graced the game with their presence. You can argue that Blizzard is being ungrateful, but not in the legal wrong.
I don't care about IP rights at all, I am IP abuser myself, because I don't think current situation with IP in the world is fair. Nor I care about IP laws.
I just explained why aforementioned American guy from SK thinks that game balance is in part a result of community efforts, so statements like "this game was developed by bliz" aren't fully correct.
Communities put their effort in this game, without them the game wouldn't be like it is nowadays, so community (and KeSPA beside them) deserve some fair credit.
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Really.... 
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I just explained why aforementioned American guy from SK thinks that game balance is in part a result of community efforts, so statements like "this game was developed by bliz" aren't fully correct.
Thanks for helping put it into perspective. Its very difficult for my limited English to explain such complex things with good enough detail to help others understand.
How does helping blizzard balance their game by playing it offering feedback, have anything to do with who owns the IP rights? It is absurd to suggest pro gamers have any kind of IP claim to starcraft because they graced the game with their presence.
If anything, the world speaks with one voice that IP rights don't matter at all. Pirating media is all the rage these days and you can get just about anything for free very shortly after it comes out.
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You know what? I still blame Activision. Blizzard and Kespa have co-existed for a long time and then Activision comes in and everything goes to hell. I'm all for Gom.tv having more power but I don't want Kespa to be shut down.
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I'm losing more and more respect for Blizzard.
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On June 16 2010 14:43 shieldbreak wrote:
You know what? I still blame Activision. Blizzard and Kespa have co-existed for a long time and then Activision comes in and everything goes to hell. I'm all for Gom.tv having more power but I don't want Kespa to be shut down.
I agree. Pre-activision Blizzard would have had no problem allowing SC1 tournaments to keep going as they knew that esports has a value beyond money. Activision, however, doesn't give a fuck about anything unless it has dollar signs on it.
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On June 12 2010 16:22 Diminotoor wrote:Show nested quote +Having said that, I don't think SC2 will lack chat channels for it's entire lifespan.
The lack of cross-realm play is the more significant problem, and the one that is less likely to be solved. I underestimated your investigative and reasoning skills many times over since our little post-for-post discussion, for this I apologize. I agree 100% with this, which is unfortunate (for us). If you read the webpost: http://sclegacy.com/articles/730-battlenet-20-concernsThis is probably the most well-written concern-post I've read to date. This is so well-written and taken from an Activision-Blizzard perspective that its already in a form that probably could be submitted to their offices and they might actually bother to read it. In this, basically we're given hope that "yeah we can add chat channels but... really? you guys really want them?". Its the same sort of "down-talk" that got them here with us in the first place, but at least it shows that message got through. As for the cross-realm play, that's the #1 gripe I have with it. I have many friends across South Korea, China, and Japan. Based on the current system, I literally am being forced to choose between playing with them or playing with my American friends (which is where I live now). Its the very definition of "This sucks". Getting back on the track of the OP though, its still not known to us what's being asked of either side in these "negotiations". Until then I'm basically going to step out of the conversation until more concrete information is put into our hands.
It looks like cross realm play might not be as farfetched as I thought initially.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=131401
I still think we are going to get chatrooms before cross realm play though, just an easier problem to work on. Yet it is good to note that blizz does actually take feedback. Many companies actually do not care what the community wants. We might not get everything we want, when we want it, exactly how we want it. but atleast blizz listens.
On June 15 2010 23:22 Leo Sosnine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2010 23:05 D3lta wrote:
How does helping blizzard balance their game by playing it offering feedback, have anything to do with who owns the IP rights? It is absurd to suggest pro gamers have any kind of IP claim to starcraft because they graced the game with their presence. You can argue that Blizzard is being ungrateful, but not in the legal wrong. I don't care about IP rights at all, I am IP abuser myself, because I don't think current situation with IP in the world is fair. Nor I care about IP laws. I just explained why aforementioned American guy from SK thinks that game balance is in part a result of community efforts, so statements like "this game was developed by bliz" aren't fully correct. Communities put their effort in this game, without them the game wouldn't be like it is nowadays, so community (and KeSPA beside them) deserve some fair credit.
You might not carea bout IP rights, but that does not negate the fact that they do exist, and are important for businesses to stay in operation. Or for musicians, or artists. Or inventors. If IP rights did not exist, there would be no motivation to make the next big thing or invent the next new cool technology. You might have gripes with how IP laws are worked right now (for the record I don't much necessarily like IP laws as they currently stand either), but the bottom line is that some form of IP rights are necessary for technological advancement.
Yes game balance was built upon by the community, but again learning how to play the game optimally does not mean you developed the game. Or had any hand in development of said game. The only time communities can take credit for game development (along with the original developers) is when they patch or mod abandonedware or other games that the original developer encourages mods for (like CS 1.6).
What it comes down to is the fact that the game balance was always there. There was no editing of unit strengths or abilities that blizzard did not do. Game balance comes by 2 things. Optimal play as a response to certain actions by the opponent, and maps.
In the first, the optimal response has always existed, yet it might not have been discovered or played or used etc. This might be because strategies might not yet have been developed or because players might not have enough control to apply the strats. In any event, claiming that players or the communities deserve some credit for development by finding the optimal way of playing is like claiming that the first person to find the best sniping spot in some FPS game should get credit for development as well. It just does not make any sense.
In regards to maps: Certain attributes to maps make them more or less favored towards certain races. For example, how the minerals are situated in regards to cliffs, or air distance between bases, ledges that tanks can be placed on to give a commanding view, etc. Yet as the game has progressed and different maps have been made. The players have adapted and abused features of maps to turn some maps to favor their race. In effect, because of the evolving optimum play a map that might be considered imbalanced at one point may later be found to be balanced. One might say that the game requires a map that incorporates this and this and this to be balanced, yet perhaps an imbalanced map might appear and Flash (or Jaedong [or insert fave progamer]) might find a revolutionary new way to play to turn a seeming imbalance around to favor their race. Then old "standard" maps that might have been fair before are no longer playable because they would (might) be imbalanced. Optimum play also deals with maps. In any event, a claim that the creation of maps should give some form of IP credit is also ridiculous. Blizzard included the map creation tool to give users the ability to create maps, and using it to create maps to play on is merely part of the game itself. (see UMS games)
On June 16 2010 09:11 Diminotoor wrote:Show nested quote +I just explained why aforementioned American guy from SK thinks that game balance is in part a result of community efforts, so statements like "this game was developed by bliz" aren't fully correct. Thanks for helping put it into perspective. Its very difficult for my limited English to explain such complex things with good enough detail to help others understand. Show nested quote +How does helping blizzard balance their game by playing it offering feedback, have anything to do with who owns the IP rights? It is absurd to suggest pro gamers have any kind of IP claim to starcraft because they graced the game with their presence. If anything, the world speaks with one voice that IP rights don't matter at all. Pirating media is all the rage these days and you can get just about anything for free very shortly after it comes out.
Yet just because some segment of people enjoy breaking the law to do something does not mean those laws should not (or do not) exist. It's all the rage among some people to smoke weed, yet just as blizzard might sue you for infringing their IP, the American federal government will still arrest your ass for possession of drugs etc. What we (people, consumers, citizens etc) want is what we want. However it does not change the laws we have to live by, and the rules of fairness. When somebody does something special, it should be recognized and rewarded as such.
//btw your english is actually rather good. There are plenty of natural english speakers with a poorer grasp of the language then you have. If it is any encouragement, english is also my second language.
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Blizzard talking with kespa...
Blizzard: Kespa you need to make Starcraft 2 tournaments only cuz we wanna sell our fucking product
Kespa: WTF? We cant just drop sc1, fans will hate us for that!
Blizzard: hmmmmm......Ok heres the deal:
we sell the rights to an other company that will pay much in hope for selling you the sublicense then u just host sc2 tournaments they are fucked up with useless shit and starcraft is gone now we can move on with sc2 =)
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EPT
