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Gretech and KeSPA Deadlocked - Page 10
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Ruff
Kazakhstan179 Posts
User was banned for this post. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
If you side with kespa, a lot of you are assuming that activision-blizzard is the evil corporation making the demand of total control and total profit and allowing kespa to simply exist but no longer with any power or control. Another satellite company for the conglomerate basically. Also you're assuming that the IP rights don't apply overseas. If you side with activision-blizzard, a lot of you are assuming that the demands are reasonable and kespa is just a greedy corporation that wants to keep everything for itself and isn't respecting IP rights without regarding that this case is in fact taking place under korean law. Not USA law. Do you see what I'm getting at here? Its like politics which, I dunno about the rest of you, is the LAST thing I want in my gaming scene. Politics suck ass and cause a lot of headache and stress. Isn't that what games are supposed to be for? To ELIMINATE or REDUCE those things? If there's a source out there that has some hard factual evidence to let us know what's being asked of either side, one side's arguments would completely crumble. Until then, its just blind assumption-based opinions being thrown out there from both sides. | ||
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Disastorm
United States922 Posts
On June 09 2010 14:17 JinMaikeul wrote: IP laws aren't the same across the globe. I'm sure blizzard researched the laws in korea before starting all these shenanigans. | ||
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HopLight
Sweden999 Posts
Even if you win in the end you are getting the bad end of the deal. | ||
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JustAnotherKnave
United States67 Posts
On June 09 2010 16:07 Disastorm wrote: I'm sure blizzard researched the laws in korea before starting all these shenanigans. Yeah, they've had several years to plan this out. | ||
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
On June 09 2010 15:34 wiesel wrote: I know you aren't serious but guess what, they don't want to go back? It's not like they get forced to become b-teamers . Maybe not, but they should be at school. Kespa should make players able to turn from amateur to pro at 19 korean age, and not before that. That way they could at least complete high school and not be total retards. I suspect this would enhance the quality of the shows as well. | ||
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Drunken Argument
United States15 Posts
Think of this as a legal precedent. KeSPA would have an excellent case to broadcast SC2 without any input from Blizzard if Blizzard never challenged them on BW. By challenging KeSPA now, they assure themselves a place at the table when SC2 eSports forms. Everyone who thinks Blizzard wants to kill BW, read this: If Blizzard wanted to kill BW, it wouldn't have made a deal with GOM. Blizzard would actually have a easier case by just trying to shut the whole scene down for IP violations. Instead, they're trying to preserve the scene while creating a place for themselves. Make no mistake: Blizzard controls the future. SC2's EULA will almost certainly prohibit broadcasting for profit without their consent and without LAN, Blizzard can control the Korean servers and prevent those who violate that EULA from playing games. But instead of using an iron fist to smash the scene (even thought they are legally in the clear), they're offering a hand and trying to preserve the scene. | ||
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kmdarkmaster
France188 Posts
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riboflavin
United States226 Posts
On June 09 2010 16:07 Disastorm wrote: I'm sure blizzard researched the laws in korea before starting all these shenanigans. But questioning and marginalizing facts without stating any evidence is what makes a good counter-point post. The objective of those who are not on moral or ethical high ground is often to evade the facts and instead reduce them to pointed rhetorical questions, such as, 'are you really that stupid?'. Meh. I really don't care as much as my posts seem to indicate. Blizzard doesn't need anyones broadcast money. Protection of IP and control of product image is so much more important that the tiny amount of money (when compare to their revenue stream) they might collect. Players should unionize away from KeSPA and sell their services to the company who purchased the broadcast rights. | ||
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Drunken Argument
United States15 Posts
On June 09 2010 16:20 riboflavin wrote: But question facts without stating any material evidence is what makes a good post. The object of those who are not on moral or ethical high ground is to evade the facts and instead reduce them to pointed rhetorical questions, such as, ' are you really that stupid?'. I'll stick with the facts. Blizzard doesn't need anyones broadcast money. Protection of IP and control of product image is so much more important that the tiny amount of money (when compare to their revenue stream) they might collect. Players should unionize away from KeSPA and sell their services to the company who purchased the broadcast rights. That's actually an excellent idea. I don't know the history of unions in Korea, but the players are the ones who stand to lose the most in this situation. If they unionize, they can not only secure their own future, but can also bargain for better wages and living conditions. Of course, the ultimate problem will be that for every programmer there is, there are thousands of b-teamers or aspiring gamers to take their place. They'll have to prove how loyal and numerous their fan bases are (and therefore how many more viewers there would be) for this to work. EDIT: my grammar sucks | ||
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NeoLearner
Belgium1847 Posts
I sincerely hope they start some serious discussions. The worst case scenario seems to be one in which nobody comes out ahead. Blizzard would make money but gains a bad reputation at the same time. I'm still reasonably optimistic though. Before the GOM deal, Kespa and Blizzard both seemed to be holding big hands with nobody wanting to cave. Now Blizzard seems to be holding just one more ace... | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1257 Posts
On June 09 2010 16:17 Drunken Argument wrote: Everyone is missing the central issue. Blizzard is NOT NOT NOT trying to kill BW. They are trying to stake a place for SC2. Think of this as a legal precedent. KeSPA would have an excellent case to broadcast SC2 without any input from Blizzard if Blizzard never challenged them on BW. By challenging KeSPA now, they assure themselves a place at the table when SC2 eSports forms. Everyone who thinks Blizzard wants to kill BW, read this: If Blizzard wanted to kill BW, it wouldn't have made a deal with GOM. Blizzard would actually have a easier case by just trying to shut the whole scene down for IP violations. Instead, they're trying to preserve the scene while creating a place for themselves. Make no mistake: Blizzard controls the future. SC2's EULA will almost certainly prohibit broadcasting for profit without their consent and without LAN, Blizzard can control the Korean servers and prevent those who violate that EULA from playing games. But instead of using an iron fist to smash the scene (even thought they are legally in the clear), they're offering a hand and trying to preserve the scene. I don't think I'm missing it at all. It is THE issue that is the root of this whole farce. It's not that Blizzard is trying to kill BW, they just don't care if it dies. What they want is to stake a place for SC2, you are exactly right. The problem comes, when they easiest method for Blizzard to achieve this end is to simply push Kespa out while keeping the ESPORTS scene alive, that is the fans and the attention, but not necessarily the infrastructure as they already know what needs to be paid for(courtesy of Kespa having done it for this long) and they can simply pay for it themselves. With the rapport and the publicity they can then easily add SC2 to the scene, and it will quickly replace BW, as the BW scene will be facing heavy resistance from the Kespa companies that are now very pissed with Blizzard. If Kespa dies, so does professional SC:BW in it's current form. But not necessarily ESPORTS, and sadly this is the best case scenario for Blizzard. Blizzard taking over the position Kespa currently holds is the cheapest way for them to have the most infrastructure in the quickest time as a platform for SC2, the fact that BW will die in the process is probably a price Blizzard will (gladly) pay. To stop Kespa from having a legitimate seat in SC2 discussion Blizzard simply needs to put it in their EULA, this, however does not leave Blizzard with much of an ESPORTS platform to work with. They would, with the help of GOM, need to essentially build an SC2 ESPORTS scene from scratch. And thus we come to the crux of the problem. Blizzard is not the big bad evil company setting out to kill BW. They are merely trying their best to find a place for SC2 esports. They just don't care if it BW dies in the process of setting up SC2 esports. It just so happens their best case scenario atm kills BW. I think it's unfair for to consider either side the big bully attempting to ruin things for everyone. Both sides are trying to further develop ESPORTS. It's just that Kespa has chosen SC:BW, and Blizzard has chosen SC2. That aside, personally I couldn't give two hoots about whether an SC2 scene is successfully set up in the future, and I'd much prefer Kespa wins out. But I can certainly see where Blizzard is coming from. | ||
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Strobe
United States26 Posts
It's like watching children try to play with each other's toys in the sandbox. This. | ||
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Drunken Argument
United States15 Posts
On June 09 2010 16:36 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: I don't think I'm missing it at all. It is THE issue that is the root of this whole farce. It's not that Blizzard is trying to kill BW, they just don't care if it dies. What they want is is to stake a place for SC2, you are exactly right. The problem comes, when they easiest method for Blizzard to achieve this end is to simply push Kespa out while keeping the ESPORTS scene alive, that is the fans and the attention, but not necessarily the infrastructure as they already know what needs to be paid for(courtesy of Kespa having done it for this long) and they can simply pay for it themselves. If Kespa dies, so does professional SC:BW in it's current form. But not necessarily ESPORTS, and sadly this is the best case scenario for Blizzard. Blizzard taking over the position Kespa currently holds is the cheapest way for them to have the most infrastructure in the quickest time as a platform for SC2, the fact that BW will die in the process is probably a price Blizzard will (gladly) pay. To stop Kespa from having a legitimate seat in SC2 discussion Blizzard simply needs to put it in their EULA, this, however does not leave Blizzard with much of an ESPORTS platform to work with. They would, with the help of GOM, need to essentially build an SC2 ESPORTS scene from scratch. And thus we come to the crux of the problem. Blizzard is not the big bad evil company setting out to kill BW. They are merely trying their best to find a place for SC2 esports. They just don't care if it BW dies in the process of setting up SC2 esports. It just so happens their best case scenario atm kills BW. I think it's unfair for to consider either side the big bully attempting to ruin things for everyone. Both sides are trying to further develop ESPORTS. It's just that Kespa has chosen SC:BW, and Blizzard has chosen SC2. That aside, personally I couldn't give two hoots about whether an SC2 scene is successfully set up in the future, and I'd much prefer Kespa wins out. But I can certainly see where Blizzard is coming from. I think we both agree on Blizzard's role here and some of it's motivations. But I don't think Blizzard wants to replace KeSPA, or even push KeSPA out of the discussion. Blizzard is a software company. It doesn't want the headache of running the eSports scene. But in order for them to be involved in the eSports scene at all, they have to push on the IP rights issue. Enter Gom. Gom sets itself up as the mediator between Blizzard and Korean eSports. By setting the contracts up through Gom, Blizzard keeps its stake but doesn't have to govern. And this is more of a guess, but I don't think Gom wants to be the new KeSPA either. They want KeSPA to eventually get on board and preserve the scene how it is, to police it and act as a unifiying body. Both of them are better off with KeSPA, and I honestly think that Gom and KeSPA could work out a deal. Part of me doubts that KeSPA will give up much of the control it has without a court battle. But it is an all-in strategy- the new scene will be set up before the case finishes, and if KeSPA loses (and really think they will), they really won't have a seat at the table. | ||
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JustAnotherKnave
United States67 Posts
On June 09 2010 14:07 JinMaikeul wrote: When you invest money to create a league, create teams, pay players' salaries, create facilities for broadcasting, create 2 24/7 channels almost exclusively for the purpose of broadcasting these leagues and the content you created and then a company comes along 10 years later and demands all the rights to everything you created with the money and effort you invested, you'd probably give them the finger too regardless of whatever repercussions you may face. Yeah, and neither would I be surprised when I got fired. KeSPA is playing the prodigal son. On June 09 2010 14:07 JinMaikeul wrote: I don't feel this kind of bias should have any place here. We're talking about a Korean league. If you feel that one of the greatest eSports scenes in the world should die just because you want an English caster, that's pretty selfish... I think it'd be great to have every broadcast all around the world in every language, but that's just not realistic nor is it something that you should expect. Korean players and corporations worked hard to create their scene. It's not their fault that the players in the USA or other countries didn't do what they did to create a scene for themselves. You don't? If I'm politicking my own interests here, deal with it. I also would politic for more and better broadcasting of soccer here in my favorite country (USA) and not feel any remorse whatsoever in who has to be pwnd to get it. I don't mind in the slightest that the best players are korean; i'm not a racist. But I still want their players, and right now its KeSPA that is not willing to cooperate. On June 09 2010 14:07 JinMaikeul wrote: South Korea regularly participates in the WCG and pro-gamers from KeSPA have made regular appearances internationally at eSports events over the years including BlizzCon. I don't get where you're getting this idea that South Korea is xenophobic or whatever. Foreign players have even taken part in South Korean tournaments and they tend to be pretty popular too. My point was not that the NBA didn't send anyone to an international event. My point is that they're not going to start adding Japanese commentators or things like that and you wouldn't logically expect them to because Japan is not their target audience. Actually, MLB does broadcast in Japan in Japanese. So try again. You're never going to get it about the xenophobia charge. Try looking up the Boxer Rebellion in China and you might find some context for understanding. I'm not saying Blizzard's position is morally right or any such nonsense, I'm simply making clear that I want them to win, and they should win. On June 09 2010 14:07 JinMaikeul wrote: What was there for Blizzard to get revenge on KeSPA for between 1999 and 2007? Nothing. Blizzard did nothing to protect their IP rights all that time so I don't know what you're talking about with the "revenge is a dish best served cold" thing. The conflict between Blizzard and KeSPA only began in recent years. Before that, Blizzard still did nothing for nearly a decade. Nothing? There is plenty of evidence to the contrary, and if you don't see it you're as blind and stubborn as KeSPA. On June 09 2010 14:07 JinMaikeul wrote: I think you're either delusional or misinformed. Blizzard had absolutely no idea when they released SC1 how large it would become. I don't know where on earth you would get this idea. While I don't doubt that the next crop of talented gamers will certainly be playing Starcraft 2, I think you're vastly overestimating Starcraft 2's ability to succeed as a serious eSport in Korea, especially without KeSPA. It will take years for Starcraft 2 to reach Brood War assuming that it even can. KeSPA will most likely continue to broadcast Brood War while litigation is pending so it's not as if there will be some sort of blackout period for Brood War either. Despite all this, Starcraft 2's primary handicap of advancing of an eSport will be the very fact that Blizzard will be in complete control of it. Blizzard has never shown an ability to manage serious competition and I highly doubt they will do so here. And unfortunately, their partner, Gretech, has crap for resources compared to KeSPA and I don't know how many companies will be willing to offer players contracts or sponsor them knowing full well that they will get little to nothing out of doing so since Blizzard will own all the content and all of the player contracts... There just doesn't seem to be much incentive there. Speak for yourself when it comes to the accusations. Since Warcraft 1, when has Blizzard ever not followed up on a game they released? Answer: never. You may think I'm overestimating SC2's success, but you'd be wrong. Even if all the current teams and sponsors stay loyal to KeSPA, I'm sure there is a laundry list of clients waiting to replace them all with Gretech, the one with the LEGITIMATE clout this time. And it won't take long at all for the players to be there. We're talking about very young adults who can get payed as professional athletes. You think the 20 year old talent is going to take the high road and not pursue the extent of his gift because of some misplaced sense of loyalty to KeSPA? Yeah right, he's thinking about the fame, the money, and the chicks. But hey, we're both barking up the wrong tree. I'm not going to change your mind, and neither will you change mine. You think KeSPA deserves to control Korean esports with impunity, and I think they should have to work through Gretech/Blizzard if they want to play SC2. | ||
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Prodigalson
Philippines19 Posts
but kespa can do nothing but to make or support other game.. if i were kespa i would glad to cancel out or ban out starcraft in my country and make or develop another rts game in which same genre but different in some aspects.. im sure koreans could do that and surely they are potential game makers than those cash cow developers. i call this greed. | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
On June 09 2010 11:40 Mellotron wrote: Alright Kespa, you lose. Now save some face and go onto the next game, not float your buildings to the corner of the map and sit there afk. LOL. Seriously though, KeSPA is screwed. I really hope Gretech gets control of the Starleagues and starts up SC2 Starleagues post haste. I think people are too worried about this whole ordeal. | ||
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wiesel
Germany727 Posts
Yeah right, he's thinking about the fame, the money, and the chicks. Which he certainly isn't getting with sc2. imo sc2 will just co-exist like wc3 and if blizzard kills broodwar leagues they probably can stop selling sc2 in korea cause noone will buy it. But i doubt they want to ruin their legacy in korea or anywhere else. If they do something to stop bw they will do it slowly after a year or two maybe. | ||
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
On June 09 2010 08:27 Triik wrote: Remember the time when kespa tried to sell broadcasting rights of starcraft when mbc/ogn were the actual companies hosting the games, coordinating and providing the venues for the games to be played? Probably the same thing here with Gretech, mbc/ogn will still have to do all the hosting and coordinating but they just have to pay Gretech to broadcast starcraft. How on earth do you expect mbc to cave to Gretech when they did not cave to kespa back then? because kespa was trying to create a right they could sell. basically, they were trying to sell something they did not, could not own. gretech has the actual licence, has the actual right to broadcast, and thus can sell it. On June 09 2010 10:24 shalafi wrote: You are forgetting something. There's an unknown contract between Blizzard and GomTV. If you remember the contract Blizzard proposed to KeSPA (that is supposed to be a secret, but luckily KeSPA broke the NDA), they asked for full control over the organization, the leagues and the players. Even if they buy 100% of GomTV, they would be limited by the contract, so things wouldn't change much. I really want to know the contract. I'm sure it's something like "BW leagues will cost a lot plus 20% more each year, SC2 leagues will be free or really cheap for the moment, but Blizzard reserves the right to ask for more at any moment". Oh, and the people that say KeSPA didn't create the BW scene: When we talk about KeSPA, we talk about the 2 channels and 12 pro teams they represent. And yes, the did create it. That is what kespa said the contract was. There was nothing shown that this was the actual proposal. Given how often kespa has been caught lying in this whole incident, I'd like to see proof before believing any accusations they make that would make themselves look better and the other side of the table look worse. On June 09 2010 12:55 adelarge wrote: Could somebody from the Blizzard defending camp explain me where this logic is wrong? Why is A and B different? A: Blizzard created Starcraft. People bought Starcraft. People used it to create esports scene. Blizzards now wants money from the esports scene. B: Canon created cameras. People bought cameras. People used them to take pictures and sold them. Canon now wants money from the sellings. I'm not actually interested in stricly law discussion, more in the moral background. Your analogy is too simplistic. you are trying to limit it in a way that cannot be argued. moral aspects are inherently intertwined with legal aspects. At any rate, your analogy would be more apt if B went. John Woo created a movie, people bought the movie, ripped parts of it and sold it. Now John Woo wants money from the sellings. The difference exists because the creation is what is being sold. In the first example, the original creation is what is being used to create something else, BUT IT IS ALSO WHAT IS BEING SOLD. The second example differs in that the original item is only being used to create something else. You cannot differentiate starcraft from the esports scene. The two are the same. Starcraft is esports scene, esports scene is starcraft. Suppose you made a fishing rod, some other company bought one, reverse engineered it, and started up a factory to make them. They had cheaper labor costs and started selling your fishing rod for a lower price. This second company might have made your fishing rod popular because they are what got more people using them..... but if you were the first company, would you not be angry? | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1257 Posts
On June 09 2010 17:07 Tump wrote: I think people are too worried about this whole ordeal. I think I'm worried just the right amount, if as you say Kespa is screwed. Given I'm interested in the current BW scene, which will die if Kespa dies(Kespa corporations hold contracts with all the best players, run all the practice houses, Kespa itself is responsible for progamer licensing, and MBC, OGN are both Kespa organisations). Also given that I have no interest in SC2 as a competitive game atm unless Blizzard makes some pretty drastic changes. There is nothing for me to gain and everything to lose when Kespa goes down. I think alot of others are in the same boat. So, no, we are worried as much as we should be worried :D On June 09 2010 17:09 wiesel wrote: imo sc2 will just co-exist like wc3 and if blizzard kills broodwar leagues they probably can stop selling sc2 in korea cause noone will buy it. But i doubt they want to ruin their legacy in korea or anywhere else. If they do something to stop bw they will do it slowly after a year or two maybe. The problem is WC3 is run by Kespa in Korea. Thus they coexist peacefully. Kespa's position on SC1 is now tenuous, and it basically has no chance at SC2 unless they want to be demoted to pretty much just a union for the sponsors with no control over how tournaments/player licensing are organised (but probably still full control over progame teams if they still exist like they do now). They are certainly not going to be able to add SC2 smoothly to their repertoire like they did W3 | ||
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