EPTGretech and KeSPA Deadlocked - Page 12
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
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Robinsa
Japan1333 Posts
Edit: I hope this goes to a judge and he says blizzard cant control a product theyve already sold... its like mercedes would go out and decide wich roads you could drive on with your car. God this annoys me... Edit:Edit This is blizzard trying to kill SC to make sure everyone switches to SC2. Im 100% sure of it now. F U Blizzard... Im NEVER buying SC2 as it stands now... | ||
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DorF
Sweden961 Posts
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bovi
Japan208 Posts
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bovi
Japan208 Posts
On June 09 2010 12:39 trulla wrote: same thing I posted on TL's facebook: Blizzard is against e-sport. Let me explain why, and please forgive my bad english. Nowadays, videogame's enterprise is based not only selling the game, but also expansions and add-ons, so game developpers have profit long after the game first come out. These expansions and add-ons require changes to the game to make it more attractive to the ... Ver máscustomers. If you don't agree with me, please check how much traffic there is on these items on Xbox Live and PSN. On the other hand, e-sports must be based on games that are massively played (so there is a market for each game, this require that people don't have to pay every month for a new patch, add-on, etc), that don't change much after every patch (so gamers can develop strategies and techniques through time, just like the starcraft case). This is why Blizzard has made so much money on WoW and so little with Starcraft, being Starcraft the most awesome game of all time and that has been played for hundreds of thousand people for over 12 years. I hope i made myself clear, again sorry about my english very interesting point. well thought out. understood you fine :D | ||
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GoDannY
Germany442 Posts
First of all it is right that Blizzard placed the timing on pushing that enforcement very well to promote SC2 even at the cost of some professional SC:BW tournaments. That doesnt necessarily mean it is "dead" at all, just it would be less in favor of SC2 but still a reasonable point to start and to gather interest. That is of course not the "gentle" move you'd expect in real life. But this is neither real life nor politics this is BUSINESS and business is cruel. Therefore it was a nice, strategic move to enforce this right now. Tough, Blizzard doesn't just close the doors, even if Kespa made profit out of a game they dont own at all. The just refused to leave it at the status quo and selling the rights to someone else hoping it turns out well for SC2. GomTV in that case offered to continue the current leagues and keep the teams on track - so all Kespa can loose is some profit (and I think with there capacities they have plenty of ways to compensate the fees). So what in bloody hell is Kespa trying to get with that behaviour? Do they think dying in ignorance will save them the holy grail of popularity or what? This is just bullshit if you ask me and if someone is responsible for that mess its only Kespa and their more than dumb behaviour. | ||
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Terakin
Jamaica22 Posts
It seems to me that KeSPA is attempting to fight this battle in the court of public opinion rather than in a court of law. Having a little over two months left in there grace period and not engaging Gretech re gaining rights to broadcast league events, KeSPA is looking to actually gain mass public support from outraged fans by announcing at a critical point, that they will not be able to continue with individual events because of strong armed tactics from Blizzard and Gretech. I think KeSPA is hoping that when there are no events running, the public outrage will be so much that it pushes Blizzard into a corner and may even impact on how the gaming community in general receives Blizzard products from now on. | ||
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KinosJourney2
Sweden1811 Posts
Kespa are acting like a spoiled 9 year old who aren't getting everything his way, Kespa should just pay up and everything will be like before. Kespa are evil to the core wanting to dictate eSports. Blizzard did the right decision giving rights to Gretech, Kespa had no rights to broadcast Starcraft as if it was their game and ignore Blizzards requests. | ||
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Wargizmo
Australia1237 Posts
On June 09 2010 13:08 trulla wrote: Yes, they want to take control of e-sports in korea where it is a profitable business, but not in other regions, that's why no crossrealm in bnet2.0. Anyway the way blizzard is fucking everything up with sc2 and bnet2, SCII will not have a massive competitive scene as SC:BW. I really don't think so. they haven't, that's why the game has already 2 expansions coming. changing the technology of the cars of course is a part of the competition on F1 because the teams are car producers and they want to take advantage from their own technology and research. I don't see any other sport where they change the rules every year (in games it would be every 2 months) No in F1 it's not just the cars, they change the actual rules quite often, for example this year they inrtroduced the rule where you have to have the same tank of fuel for the entire race instead of allowing you to fill up during a pit stop. There are tons of other examples of sports that are constantly changing the rules, the NFL for example bringing in all the rules against rushing the passer has significantly changed the game. Rugby Union recently brought in a whole bunch of new rules relating to many aspects of the game including scrum formations and the way penalties are given. Sports are always tweaking their rules to either make the game fairer or prevent injuries. | ||
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riboflavin
United States226 Posts
On June 09 2010 18:57 infinity2k9 wrote: Where is this profit coming from exactly? They spend more than they make on running the teams, tournaments etc. I'm not sure how anyone thinks that theres a lot of money going into KeSPA, the profit is in the form of advertising for the sponsors. I said 'in order to create a profit for itself'. Just because they failed to turn a profit doesn't change the fact that they are capitalistic. Their objective, like any business was to make money. I don't begrudge them this. I was simply stating this point to show motivations as compared to Blizzard. I could care less if they lose money, make money...poop on it and eat it with a side of P. Sweat. The only place I implied where there was real money was on the Blizzard side. Because they have such a massive balance sheet it legitimizes their claims even more. We all know how little money there is to be had from the e-sports scene. Obviously Blizzard could give two poops about the chump change they will collect from broadcasting rights. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On June 09 2010 17:34 dogabutila wrote: What? How one plays the game does not change the game you are playing. When you start the game does it display starcraft or does it display something else? Whose code are you running? You / We, made nothing. All we did was learn how to play the game optimally. Its like saying tiger woods owns golf, or rafa nadal owns tennis. Thats absurd. It seems that you don't understand how sports change over the years, its the top players who find new things and then eventually certain aspects become either broken or need adjusting and therefore it does in fact become a player-created game. Its not at all like saying Tiger Woods owns golf but losing him certainly would be a big blow for Pro Golf so its in their best interest to keep him around (the latest scandal made that very clear if you follow sports at all).. Wrong again. Seriously where do you get this stuff? NCAA. Plenty of football (soccer) leagues have started and folded and others have started. Games do not cease to exist because the primary league in one country ceases to exist. Or because somebody else is the only entity capable of showing footage of it. All due respect, I don't believe you understand the situation. There's a reason I specifically didn't use NCAA. I foresaw someone saying something like this and picked something that's large-scale but mostly located within a single country hoping someone would respond like this so thanks in a sense. If you have a sport that is already internationally-rooted and you dissolve the original council responsible for game management, team management, etc, then yes eventually it will recover just based on the popularity of the sport. If you are dissolving the governing body or "The Big Cheese" as we'll call it from here on out of a sport or event that does NOT have this kind of popularity or deep-rooted history (E-Sports is even less so than the NBA I should have used like... NFL or something) then the blow is far more severe. Failure to see the minute yet significant differences here will cause your opinion to be wildly offtrack. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ That all being said and hopefully setting some opinions on the right track (if you didn't, that's ok I forgive your shortsightedness and the probable flaming that will occur to me). I still have seen no response whatsoever that looks at my last post though about asking for official information on the ongoing negotiations. Therefore, I'm going to assume that these details are just as I assumed, and they are not public which makes discussion on a topic like this utterly meaningless as all the stances are based on assumptions which both have equal potential to be incorrect. | ||
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shin ken
Germany612 Posts
If Kespa has good lawyers, maybe they could postpone the conviction for like 3-5 years. And with the slowly decreasing interest in BW especially after the release of SC2, that could be the exact time frame how long it would have been profitable in the first place. Or am I wrong? | ||
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DrakanSilva
Chile932 Posts
Just like in many other countries, the laws of the companies are restricted to what the government says and not the other way. that's the only way out for KeSPA, OGN and MBC if they don't want to pay to gretech. I still think is absolutely non-sense to give all the power to Gretech. They talk about diplomacy ? This seems very Feudalistic for me. Everybody pays Gretech that hasn't done half as much as KeSPA, OGN and MBC for e-sports in korea. Plain ridiculous. | ||
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
And Kepsa, please fucking negotiate with them...we want SC:BW.. | ||
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Armathai
1023 Posts
On June 10 2010 00:57 shin ken wrote: I don't know if this has been asked before, but how long would the lawsuit take? If Kespa has good lawyers, maybe they could postpone the conviction for like 3-5 years. And with the slowly decreasing interest in BW especially after the release of SC2, that could be the exact time frame how long it would have been profitable in the first place. Or am I wrong? I'd really wonder about this as well, everyone's worried about a 2month deadline, but seriously, it takes ages to shut down stuff like this. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On June 10 2010 01:51 Armathai wrote: I'd really wonder about this as well, everyone's worried about a 2month deadline, but seriously, it takes ages to shut down stuff like this. It'll take a while to shut down the game's popularity I'm sure (in fact it may never truly die), but the 2 month deadline everyone is worried about is what Activision-Blizzard (stop calling them just "blizzard" guys, its wrong) gave to KeSpA to stop broadcasting SC:BW tournaments and games. As far as I know, noone has those rights at the moment (I think GOM only has SC2 broadcasting rights) and it would mean that the pro scene dies almost instantly. All the pros and teams that are currently gathered would suddenly have no scene to play in, no arenas, and the fanbase would drop drastically because of the sudden nonexistence of games to watch/attend. | ||
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xBillehx
United States1289 Posts
On June 10 2010 02:17 Diminotoor wrote: It'll take a while to shut down the game's popularity I'm sure (in fact it may never truly die), but the 2 month deadline everyone is worried about is what Activision-Blizzard (stop calling them just "blizzard" guys, its wrong) gave to KeSpA to stop broadcasting SC:BW tournaments and games. As far as I know, noone has those rights at the moment (I think GOM only has SC2 broadcasting rights) and it would mean that the pro scene dies almost instantly. All the pros and teams that are currently gathered would suddenly have no scene to play in, no arenas, and the fanbase would drop drastically because of the sudden nonexistence of games to watch/attend. GOMTV has rights to all Blizzard games, including BW so if everyone wanted to they could easily make the switch with hardly any change at all. (Maybe casters and ridiculous rules) The players, teams, leagues and sponsors lose nothing but control by negotiating with GOM. Sponsors pay for teams and training to get the sponsor name out. There's really no loss in the free advertising (aka profit by sales) if they just switched over. KeSPA is being really stupid atm. Also, it is still "Blizzard" as Activision Blizzard is merely the parent publishing company and does no direct development on games itself. Blizzard Entertainment still exists as a separate entity and still has full power over everything it does. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activision_Blizzard (Sorry, pet peeve when people confuse the two.) Another thing people need to note is it's not USA law versus Korean law anymore. Rights belong to GOM, so a Korean company is having it's rights infringed upon if KeSPA continues their tournaments with ignorance. You can't expect the Korean government to back one Korean entity over another because of foreign influence. South Korea has Copyright laws too. Sure courts could drag out but in the end it's KeSPA who will take a hit. I'm no lawyer or anything but it's pretty obvious KeSPA doesn't recognize IP rights. A lot of the analagies have been fail, but one thing you can compare Starcraft to is movies. You can't take a movie created by someone else, splice it into your own creation and broadcast it while making money off of it. It's against all laws, and theres no way to justify that. One last little note that people probably aren't too familiar with: Some time ago Jon747 had to stop uploading one of the KeSPA leagues videos because they claimed copyrights to it and wanted him to pay per video. (Not sure if this is still the case but I distinctly remember reading about it on his page) It's okay for KeSPA to ask for that but not respect Blizzards IP rights in the first place? | ||
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Armathai
1023 Posts
On June 10 2010 02:17 Diminotoor wrote: It'll take a while to shut down the game's popularity I'm sure (in fact it may never truly die), but the 2 month deadline everyone is worried about is what Activision-Blizzard (stop calling them just "blizzard" guys, its wrong) gave to KeSpA to stop broadcasting SC:BW tournaments and games. As far as I know, noone has those rights at the moment (I think GOM only has SC2 broadcasting rights) and it would mean that the pro scene dies almost instantly. All the pros and teams that are currently gathered would suddenly have no scene to play in, no arenas, and the fanbase would drop drastically because of the sudden nonexistence of games to watch/attend. Yes but my point is, it's the deadline Blizzard gave them(not a korean court), so what if the deadline passes and they still broadcast, then blizzard has to go to court and the process lengthens while they just continue showing the leagues, am I wrong? | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On June 10 2010 03:06 xBillehx wrote: GOMTV has rights to all Blizzard games, including BW so if everyone wanted to they could easily make the switch with hardly any change at all. (Maybe casters and ridiculous rules) The players, teams, leagues and sponsors lose nothing but control by negotiating with GOM. Sponsors pay for teams and training to get the sponsor name out. There's really no loss in the free advertising (aka profit by sales) if they just switched over. KeSPA is being really stupid atm. As the terms of these negotiations have not been made public, you are basing your opinion off assumptions which can easily be skewed. Also, it is still "Blizzard" as Activision Blizzard is merely the parent publishing company and does no direct development on games itself. Blizzard Entertainment still exists as a separate entity and still has full power over everything it does. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activision_Blizzard (Sorry, pet peeve when people confuse the two.) Your own source wrote: Activision Blizzard, Inc., formerly Activision, Inc. (NASDAQ: ATVI) is the American holding company for Activision and Blizzard Entertainment, majority owned by French conglomerate Vivendi SA. So its "Activision Blizzard Inc." not "Blizzard Inc.". Regardless of Activision claiming they won't have any influence over Blizzard's games, the fact that they report to the same shareholders means in fact that Blizzard is now on Activision's schedule and not their own. Activision no doubt pressures Blizzard to get things out on time even if it means a premature launch just to have it out so their shareholders can start making money. You have to have a little insight into how the companies work in order to reach this conclusion though. but one thing you can compare Starcraft to is movies. You can't take a movie created by someone else, splice it into your own creation and broadcast it while making money off of it. It's against all laws, and theres no way to justify that. Being an active member of the film industry myself, I can tell you that your analogy is also way off. The way a movie and a game are made are very different. Also the way a game can become a competitive medium does not exist within a movie. You can't have different movie-goers battling it out in a fight to win the movie. While its true KeSPA honestly shouldn't have been making money off of this, Activision Blizzard Inc will not be any better for making money off of E-Sports either. If you want to run it like a real sports team, the players and the team owners might make money off sales of certain team-related merchandise, but the games themselves should be free as well as the broadcasts (unless of course you're viewing them through a premium service such as pay-per-view or something). You can broadcast any sport basically free of charge or fear of being prosecuted as long as you're not infringing on the team's rights to their own likeness. The same should exist for E-Sports. One last little note that people probably aren't too familiar with: Some time ago Jon747 had to stop uploading one of the KeSPA leagues videos because they claimed copyrights to it and wanted him to pay per video. (Not sure if this is still the case but I distinctly remember reading about it on his page) It's okay for KeSPA to ask for that but not respect Blizzards IP rights in the first place? I actually looked this up in response to something someone said but I wasn't sure if it was this thread. I thought it was the OSL/MSL Leagues (MBC Game owns MSL and OnGameNet owns OSL) that were claiming rights to their broadcasts and not KeSPA but I wasn't positive so I didn't say anything. Jon747 wrote: ### Please Notice ### I have been hesitating due to Copyright, OSL + MSL, and other stuffs. oskyloveo did quit recording them on TV. So I have to play my money $ 0.5 as per one file if I should download from...... I don't know exactly and Im a little hazy about what to do next.... | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
On June 10 2010 03:16 Armathai wrote: Yes but my point is, it's the deadline Blizzard gave them(not a korean court), so what if the deadline passes and they still broadcast, then blizzard has to go to court and the process lengthens while they just continue showing the leagues, am I wrong? Depends on the ability to have the courts grant an injunction against KeSPA / the broadcasters. I want to point out something that a lot of people are not getting in this thread; just because its in an EULA (or any contract) does NOT mean that is the end all, be all legal situation that cannot be broken. There are limitations on all contracts (usually dealing with interactions with other laws e.g. you cannot contract someone to rob a bank or steal a car for you and then sue them when they dont do it) and Blizzard, despite putting all of this stuff in their EULA for Starcraft 2 may not have the legal capability to stop broadcast of games, replays, maps, etcetera if the Korean courts decide that the terms in the EULA are not legal. EULAs fit a certain number of legal definitions that modify their enforceability relative to negotiated contracts, as well. The Korean courts could very well look at Blizzard claiming to own content created by end users and decide that it's not fair to the end user and simply void that language. I dont know how contract law works in Korea, maybe one of our fine South Korean members can illuminate that area. And let's try to look at this less from who is the good guy and who is the bad guy in the legal or strictly moral sense, lets look at who is the good guy and who is the bad guy for the fans and the players. Legality should be secondary, shouldnt it? It's not like Blizzard needs this money, they will be fine without it. If KeSPA loses then BW on TV may very well go away. You may be watching sudden attack on OGN or MBC and that would be 1000 times worse wouldnt it? BTW I have an analogy I think actually fits since it is a software analogy. What would happen if Adobe claimed ownership of everything made with photoshop, like end user pictures, brushes, automated actions, etc? I mean, if they could make the same claim as Blizzard, I bet they could walk into the office of every major news paper or blog and demand compensation and then if it wasnt given they could sue them. I wonder if they would win? Because I seriously doubt it. | ||
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