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On June 09 2010 13:04 JinMaikeul wrote:
Actually it would be closer to:
A: Blizzard created Starcraft. People bought Starcraft. People used it to create esports scene. Blizzards now wants money from the esports scene.
B: Spalding creates a basketball. The NBA the basketball. The NBA creates a tournament and sells broadcasting rights to stations that want to broadcast players playing with the basketball that they bought. Spalding now wants money for their product being broadcast in a profitable venture and also wants complete ownership of all broadcasts made that show a Spalding basketball along with ownership of all contracts of the basketball players. Don't forget throwing in the right for Spalding to audit the NBA whenever they want and also requiring the NBA to first receive approval from Spalding for any competition they want to hold involving Spalding basketballs.
The concept of intellectual property and the extent of the rights a creator has to his property are not universal. In the USA and some other western nations, we're used to intellectual property laws being pretty strict and in some cases, downright unreasonable. The question comes down to what you are and are not allowed to do with the things you buy and what rights the consumer has as opposed to the creator.
This is not right. B is incorrect because the NBA uses a basketball as part of a tool to play. In starcraft // esports. The analogy would be more correct if say, Naismith invented basketball, copyrighted it and then other people started playing it. The NBA comes along and creates a tournament and sells broadcasting rights and tickets for attendance, making money off the game that Naismith created.
In this case, Naismith would have every right, legal, moral, ethical to want compensation for the NBA stealing his game and not giving him anything. Thus the same with blizzard. They created the game that other people are using. Starcraft is not analogous to esports in this case as a particular brand of basketball is to the NBA.
Comparatively, in the esports world, a basketball would be more akin to the monitor or mouse or keyboard. A tool that allows one the play the game. NOT the game itself.
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On June 09 2010 16:17 Drunken Argument wrote:
Everyone is missing the central issue. Blizzard is NOT NOT NOT trying to kill BW. They are trying to stake a place for SC2.
Think of this as a legal precedent. KeSPA would have an excellent case to broadcast SC2 without any input from Blizzard if Blizzard never challenged them on BW. By challenging KeSPA now, they assure themselves a place at the table when SC2 eSports forms.
Everyone who thinks Blizzard wants to kill BW, read this: If Blizzard wanted to kill BW, it wouldn't have made a deal with GOM. Blizzard would actually have a easier case by just trying to shut the whole scene down for IP violations. Instead, they're trying to preserve the scene while creating a place for themselves.
Make no mistake: Blizzard controls the future. SC2's EULA will almost certainly prohibit broadcasting for profit without their consent and without LAN, Blizzard can control the Korean servers and prevent those who violate that EULA from playing games. But instead of using an iron fist to smash the scene (even thought they are legally in the clear), they're offering a hand and trying to preserve the scene.
I have no doubt in my mind that Blizzard does not want to kill BW. The problem is, if the leagues stop then the korean BW pros are out of a job. By then, SC2 will be out, and it's likely that future gamers will not pick up brood war if the league system is shacky or non-existent. Since the current pros will be out of a job, and future gamers probably won't want to take the time to get gosu at BW, it is a possibility that despite blizzard's intentions, BW will die.
I mean, does Blizzard/Gretech have the funding, or time to negotiate with sponsors for future leagues that are up to the standards of PL/MSL/OSL? Can Blizzard afford to house and feed hundreds of professionals while these negotiations are happening? I certainly hope so. If not, I hope the fans are outraged at the misguided decisions of those that run our favorite game. I just wouldn't rule out that possibility.
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On June 09 2010 15:55 Ruff wrote:
Go KeSPA! F*ck Blizzard.
User was banned for this post.
That's pretty harsh, bro. I think both sides have handled this badly. Anyway, one thing's for certain, if the pro scene is going to stay alive in Korea the relations between these three companies is going to have to change. A LOT. We don't need any more crying over who gets the money. All three of these companies have enough as it is. The problem is they aren't agreeing with each other because they each want a bigger slice of the pie. And if they can't agree on the sizes of the slices, it's gonna be bad news.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1361 Posts
On June 09 2010 17:24 hp.Shell wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2010 15:55 Ruff wrote:
Go KeSPA! F*ck Blizzard.
User was banned for this post. That's pretty harsh, bro. I think both sides have handled this badly. Anyway, one thing's for certain, if the pro scene is going to stay alive in Korea the relations between these three companies is going to have to change. A LOT. We don't need any more crying over who gets the money. All three of these companies have enough as it is. The problem is they aren't agreeing with each other because they each want a bigger slice of the pie. And if they can't agree on the sizes of the slices, it's gonna be bad news.
Sadly I don't think they are arguing over who gets a bigger slice, so much as who determines how big a slice everyone gets, what knife to use to cut the pie, what ingredients to put into the pie and how it's cooked.
That is to say, they(Blizzard and Kespa, Gom probably is just in it for the profits) want operation control of Korean ESPORTS, I'm sure if it was just a licensing fee, and it wasn't ridiculous, Kespa would just pay it.
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The problem is WC3 is run by Kespa in Korea. Thus they coexist peacefully.
Mh true i didnt think about that. I wonder what will happen to players like MooN then
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Blizz should have stuck to granting license regarding SCII, instead of trying to enforce BW IP rights through a third party. They really seek a confrontation with KeSPA that's not necessary.
How effective will negotiations be when they start? Will KeSPA continue to run their leagues, since a lawsuit could take years and have an unpredictable outcome? Blizzard has an interest in this being solved before SCII hits, and the scene has an interest in certainty, that allows for sponsors and planning. Hopefully this should be enough to secure the pro scene to continue.
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On June 09 2010 14:00 Diminotoor wrote:Show nested quote +but in the case of Starcraft it's crystal clear, Blizzard invented it, they perfected and balanced it over many years, they own it Its painfully clear you have no idea what has happened in Starcraft over the years. SC:BW became a phenomenon that Blizzard could never have predicted ahead-of-time. The way strategy has progressed, the subtle techniques used, and the overall evolution of how to play BW "properly" came about solely because of a large faithful playerbase who continued to work and fine-tune it. If you were active in the scene when SC1 first hit the shelves, you would know that today's BW isn't "Blizzard's game". Its a player-created franchise that became popular because of us. Those "adjustments" they made and all the patches they put out were because we figured out certain things needed tweaking. If we didn't exist, game patches wouldn't exist, and the game would fail. Stop treating the creating party like they're a God for making the original and its not about us for making it what it is today.
What? How one plays the game does not change the game you are playing. When you start the game does it display starcraft or does it display something else? Whose code are you running? You / We, made nothing. All we did was learn how to play the game optimally. Its like saying tiger woods owns golf, or rafa nadal owns tennis. Thats absurd.
This is correct although the shortsightedness of people who follow this as a truth is nauseating. Basically it'd be like getting rid of the NBA and expecting Basketball to continue because ESPN was given sole broadcasting rights. If you can't see that simple analogy, there's no talking to you.
Wrong again. Seriously where do you get this stuff? NCAA. Plenty of football (soccer) leagues have started and folded and others have started. Games do not cease to exist because the primary league in one country ceases to exist. Or because somebody else is the only entity capable of showing footage of it.
All due respect, I don't believe you understand the situation.
On June 09 2010 11:40 Mellotron wrote:
Alright Kespa, you lose. Now save some face and go onto the next game, not float your buildings to the corner of the map and sit there afk.
This.
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What? How one plays the game does not change the game you are playing. When you start the game does it display starcraft or does it display something else? Whose code are you running? You / We, made nothing. All we did was learn how to play the game optimally. Its like saying tiger woods owns golf, or rafa nadal owns tennis. Thats absurd.
The korean map makers balanced the game, they deserve some credit. Starcraft on Blizzard maps= omg 
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This keeps getting uglier and uglier.
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So like, when blizzard finally gets it's way and e-sports dies as we know it now. Then they try and redo it their way with sc1 and a whole new way with sc2 and it fails. Then will blizzard Seppuku for us? I really hope that part is in the contract somewhere.
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I just really wish the bw scene to stay alive in korea.
I'd hate it to go away only because blizzard wants more money from SC2.
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On June 09 2010 17:37 wiesel wrote:Show nested quote +What? How one plays the game does not change the game you are playing. When you start the game does it display starcraft or does it display something else? Whose code are you running? You / We, made nothing. All we did was learn how to play the game optimally. Its like saying tiger woods owns golf, or rafa nadal owns tennis. Thats absurd. The korean map makers balanced the game, they deserve some credit. Starcraft on Blizzard maps= omg
This is very very true.
However, I would like to comment on the fact that people somehow believe that blizz just decides to stop supporting BW and caring about it up till now. Except even earlier they attempted to start a league with gom, and have been negotiating with kespa since 07.
And have been releasing patches for bugs and exploits for a significant period of time.
I think that if blizz had access to the data that the koreans had, they would have made better maps or made other balance changes as well. They just havent because now they havent had to since somebody else made the maps for them. People just seem to forget that blizz HAS supported the game for an inordinately long period of time, HAS attempted to start their own league *which kespa shut down*, HAS run their own tournaments, and HAS been fighting with kespa over IP rights for a significant period of time. They are anything but a johnny come lately. They do care about their game.
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On June 09 2010 13:36 riboflavin wrote:
KeSPA is an opportunistic entity that helped stabilize the SC BW scene in order to create a profit for itself.
Where is this profit coming from exactly? They spend more than they make on running the teams, tournaments etc. I'm not sure how anyone thinks that theres a lot of money going into KeSPA, the profit is in the form of advertising for the sponsors.
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On June 09 2010 18:57 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2010 13:36 riboflavin wrote:
KeSPA is an opportunistic entity that helped stabilize the SC BW scene in order to create a profit for itself.
Where is this profit coming from exactly? They spend more than they make on running the teams, tournaments etc. I'm not sure how anyone thinks that theres a lot of money going into KeSPA, the profit is in the form of advertising for the sponsors.
KeSPA = Sponsors...
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On June 09 2010 07:20 Chef wrote:
Thanks for this.
“In order to prevent E-SPORTS fans from suffering losses by having leagues shutdown by force, we are doing our best to start negotiations as soon as possible, but kespa and the broadcasting channels have not given us a response, which is very frustrating.”
Honestly, I think this is exactly what should happen. They should try to shut down the individual leagues, and then have the law shoved in their faces when they realise they don't have any right to do so. Sorry, Blizzard, but you can't make up the rules. I don't there's any real law that protects their game from being used in broadcasts, and it doesn't exactly look good that they're 8 years too late.
Even if SC:BW ends because of this, and Blizzard really does have the law on their side, I think that's dying with honour. If these are the last days of BroodWar, I will watch as many games as I can. I'm not going to watch any e-sports run by the ungrateful company Blizzard has become. The word sport can't even be applied to such a ridiculous venture.
To clarify my feelings: I think if only on a matter of principle, KeSPA should not negotiate under these circumstances. Blizzard wants control of an organization they didn't help at all, but that helped them lots. Blizzard is the ultimate brat.
Couldn't agree more. Well said.
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Hope BW stays alive and well.
Don't know why Blizzard has suddenly decided to push this issue. Probably SC2.
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On June 09 2010 17:17 dogabutila wrote:
Comparatively, in the esports world, a basketball would be more akin to the monitor or mouse or keyboard. A tool that allows one the play the game. NOT the game itself.
It occurred to me years ago, when I started disliking Blizzard, that it might be useful to "remake" Starcraft from scratch. By that I mean make an engine that is very similar to that of Starcraft, so that even quirks and glitches can be reproduced, and then create units with totally different names and graphics, but with stats corresponding to the units we know. I'd venture a guess that while Blizzard owns all the rights to the content of the game, they don't own the numbers that make up the unit statistics. At least not in countries with sane laws.
If such a remake were to exist, it would be a second tool that allows you to play a game of Starcraft. A game of Starcraft can be played using any program that has the necessary features. So the program really is just a tool, but it just so happens that there is only one company "manufacturing" it.
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On June 09 2010 19:28 GeLaar wrote:
It occurred to me years ago, when I started disliking Blizzard, that it might be useful to "remake" Starcraft from scratch. By that I mean make an engine that is very similar to that of Starcraft, so that even quirks and glitches can be reproduced, and then create units with totally different names and graphics, but with stats corresponding to the units we know. I'd venture a guess that while Blizzard owns all the rights to the content of the game, they don't own the numbers that make up the unit statistics. At least not in countries with sane laws.
If such a remake were to exist, it would be a second tool that allows you to play a game of Starcraft. A game of Starcraft can be played using any program that has the necessary features. So the program really is just a tool, but it just so happens that there is only one company "manufacturing" it.
That would be a really good thing for a sport if this works. Shame nobody really committed to this. I do not think it would be difficult in Korea. So many diablo-like online games were made just overnight.
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sad day when there will be no MSL.
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Haven't read all the replies, but one thing stands out to me.
GOM have an exclusive 3 year deal with Blizzard.
According to Kespa, Blizzard were only offering a one year deal to them.
A one year deal would be insane to take because there are no future guarantees, and yet Kespa claim that was the offer, while GOM manage to get 3 years exclusivity for all Blizzard games...
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EPT
