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On March 19 2008 09:32 Kau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 09:12 Ace wrote:On March 19 2008 09:04 qrs wrote:
Edit: @ Ace: He's saying that every bodyguard would get a PM. Their PM would list Mafia members as bodyguards. Each bodyguard's PM would list (the same) fake bodyguards as their colleagues. None of the bodyguards would know the difference. They'd still be caught. Ok let's look at like this: Scenario 1: There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with a Mafia Mayor who also sends out the PM. We will know how many BGs are there when the elections are over. The Mafia can't leave 2 of the real Bodyguards off the list because the 2 that didn't get a PM would speak up. They can't just add an extra 2 to the PM because any BG getting a PM from the Mayor with 9 names obviously means the Mayor is clearly not thinking straight and is fishy. Scenario 2: There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with an Innocent Mayor who also sends out the PM. The PMs from the Mayor don't match those 2 "fake" PMs. Even better, the names of those 2 fakers never even appear in the Mayor's original PM and they just outted themselves as Mafia for a pathetic chance at confusion. How can the Mafia possibly get away with faking any of it without drawing attention to their members? Ace, I don't see how scenario 1 would happen at all. Unless I don't understand how the game works (which is a definite possibility), this is how I see it using your numbers. What everyone knows: There are 7 bodyguards. Only the mayor knows which 7 people are bodyguards. Now, we assume that the mayor is also mafia, so he can coordinate with other mafia members. Since he knows who each bodyguard is, he will send each of the 7 bodyguards a pm. Each pm will have 7 people in it: 6 mafia and 1 bodyguard. Each bodyguard gets pm'ed back by the mafia members (6 different pm's for each bodyguard) and so they believe there are 7 bodyguards. No bodyguards are left out. Each list sent contains 7 people. Each bodyguard recieves 6 confirmation pm's.
As I had said earlier, once one bodyguard dies, the other bodyguards would find out that the one that died isn't in their list and would obviously protest. Mayor gets lynched and people get the list of a large portion of the mafia, plus the mayor.
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On March 19 2008 09:39 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 09:32 Kau wrote:On March 19 2008 09:12 Ace wrote:On March 19 2008 09:04 qrs wrote:
Edit: @ Ace: He's saying that every bodyguard would get a PM. Their PM would list Mafia members as bodyguards. Each bodyguard's PM would list (the same) fake bodyguards as their colleagues. None of the bodyguards would know the difference. They'd still be caught. Ok let's look at like this: Scenario 1: There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with a Mafia Mayor who also sends out the PM. We will know how many BGs are there when the elections are over. The Mafia can't leave 2 of the real Bodyguards off the list because the 2 that didn't get a PM would speak up. They can't just add an extra 2 to the PM because any BG getting a PM from the Mayor with 9 names obviously means the Mayor is clearly not thinking straight and is fishy. Scenario 2: There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with an Innocent Mayor who also sends out the PM. The PMs from the Mayor don't match those 2 "fake" PMs. Even better, the names of those 2 fakers never even appear in the Mayor's original PM and they just outted themselves as Mafia for a pathetic chance at confusion. How can the Mafia possibly get away with faking any of it without drawing attention to their members? Ace, I don't see how scenario 1 would happen at all. Unless I don't understand how the game works (which is a definite possibility), this is how I see it using your numbers. What everyone knows: There are 7 bodyguards. Only the mayor knows which 7 people are bodyguards. Now, we assume that the mayor is also mafia, so he can coordinate with other mafia members. Since he knows who each bodyguard is, he will send each of the 7 bodyguards a pm. Each pm will have 7 people in it: 6 mafia and 1 bodyguard. Each bodyguard gets pm'ed back by the mafia members (6 different pm's for each bodyguard) and so they believe there are 7 bodyguards. No bodyguards are left out. Each list sent contains 7 people. Each bodyguard recieves 6 confirmation pm's. As I had said earlier, once one bodyguard dies, the other bodyguards would find out that the one that died isn't in their list and would obviously protest. Mayor gets lynched and people get the list of a large portion of the mafia, plus the mayor.
I have to agree. In the long run this "hole" would actually benefit the town alot more than it would benefit mafia.
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On March 19 2008 09:32 Kau wrote:
Ace, I don't see how scenario 1 would happen at all. Unless I don't understand how the game works (which is a definite possibility), this is how I see it using your numbers.
What everyone knows:
There are 7 bodyguards.
Only the mayor knows which 7 people are bodyguards.
Now, we assume that the mayor is also mafia, so he can coordinate with other mafia members.
Since he knows who each bodyguard is, he will send each of the 7 bodyguards a pm. Each pm will have 7 people in it: 6 mafia and 1 bodyguard. Each bodyguard gets pm'ed back by the mafia members (6 different pm's for each bodyguard) and so they believe there are 7 bodyguards. No bodyguards are left out. Each list sent contains 7 people. Each bodyguard recieves 6 confirmation pm's.
If this Does happen the Mafia has then implicated 7 of their own Mafia members because:
1.) The DTs investigated the Mayor and find out he is MAFIA
2.) Once this is revealed, all the BGs speak out about the PMs they received and not only are the names tallied, the common names in PMs that are fishy get investigated first
For that hole to work, it assumes that we have a Mafia Mayor and that no Detective investigates them. That would never happen.
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On March 19 2008 09:42 Falcynn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 09:39 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On March 19 2008 09:32 Kau wrote:On March 19 2008 09:12 Ace wrote:On March 19 2008 09:04 qrs wrote:
Edit: @ Ace: He's saying that every bodyguard would get a PM. Their PM would list Mafia members as bodyguards. Each bodyguard's PM would list (the same) fake bodyguards as their colleagues. None of the bodyguards would know the difference. They'd still be caught. Ok let's look at like this: Scenario 1: There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with a Mafia Mayor who also sends out the PM. We will know how many BGs are there when the elections are over. The Mafia can't leave 2 of the real Bodyguards off the list because the 2 that didn't get a PM would speak up. They can't just add an extra 2 to the PM because any BG getting a PM from the Mayor with 9 names obviously means the Mayor is clearly not thinking straight and is fishy. Scenario 2: There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with an Innocent Mayor who also sends out the PM. The PMs from the Mayor don't match those 2 "fake" PMs. Even better, the names of those 2 fakers never even appear in the Mayor's original PM and they just outted themselves as Mafia for a pathetic chance at confusion. How can the Mafia possibly get away with faking any of it without drawing attention to their members? Ace, I don't see how scenario 1 would happen at all. Unless I don't understand how the game works (which is a definite possibility), this is how I see it using your numbers. What everyone knows: There are 7 bodyguards. Only the mayor knows which 7 people are bodyguards. Now, we assume that the mayor is also mafia, so he can coordinate with other mafia members. Since he knows who each bodyguard is, he will send each of the 7 bodyguards a pm. Each pm will have 7 people in it: 6 mafia and 1 bodyguard. Each bodyguard gets pm'ed back by the mafia members (6 different pm's for each bodyguard) and so they believe there are 7 bodyguards. No bodyguards are left out. Each list sent contains 7 people. Each bodyguard recieves 6 confirmation pm's. As I had said earlier, once one bodyguard dies, the other bodyguards would find out that the one that died isn't in their list and would obviously protest. Mayor gets lynched and people get the list of a large portion of the mafia, plus the mayor. I have to agree. In the long run this "hole" would actually benefit the town alot more than it would benefit mafia.
you would have to sacrifice the pardoner and the bodyguards in that event
ironically, there roles would be pretty much useless in that case anyways
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The problem is, if I'm not elected anything, the town'll lose a detective. Unless mafia decide that you're very likely to be plastered in paramedics for the first few days and then decide that you wouldn't be worth killing for 2-3 nights. Even then, that's assuming mafia actually believes your story. The entire Fakesteve 'attitude' was probably the single most important part of the townie downfall last game, and you've show yourself to be heir to it this game.
Mankind ill needs such a savior as you.
Taken at face value, your post assumes that:
-You aren't lying about being a detective.
-You aren't a normal townie trying to push your way into becoming the mayor
-You aren't a previous high-profile mafia member trying to throw down a few high stakes rolls for big rewards.
Since you're likely not mafia, just like every other mayoral candidate isn't, the qualities you possess as an individual are the most important, and I simply don't see you as having the right ones. Sorry  .
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still the only way (if that happen) to have a BG killed would be to have the town to lynch one bodyguard (or by vigilante) since mafia wont kill the BG to reveal themselves.
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fusion, I'm not answering PMs like that.
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After some reflection, Ace, I have problems with the bodyguard plan. I have a problem with any plan that doesn't sacrifice a detective to discover the mayor's innocence. That is the only sure way to make sure the mayor is clean. I've run the logic through my head several times, and I see no way of verifying the mayor's innocence unless you lynch a detective voluntarily. I bought what you were saying for a while, but after taking it into deeper consideration, I'm having more and more problems with your logic. I came to the same conclusions about the bodyguard plan others have already. You haven't answered their posts very well at all, I think. Your plan is flawed, and since the counters to them have been all posted here, it's very likely now that the mafia is going to use them. Your only response so far (unless I've missed them) is that it's not worth it for the mafia to risk outing a member. But since detectives can't be trusted (unless they're hanged) there's no way to be sure who's mafia.
I'm not sure if it's worth sacrificing a detective to prove the mayor's innocence, but his ability to coordinate the town without being hit seems powerful enough to warrant it. So unless this round proves me wrong, I'm going to reserve my vote unless a candidate is willing to make that sacrifice, or shows me the flaw in my logic.
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On March 19 2008 09:45 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
fusion, I'm not answering PMs like that.
hahaha
your response is itself an answer
as was the intent
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And to further clarify this is how the self-checking works:
Bodyguards are checked by each other and Mayor with the PMs
Mayor is checked by Detectives
Detectives stay silent if the Mayor is legit, and speak up if he is Mafia
If ANY Detective speaks up against the Mayor and we can't decide whether or not who to believe, we go to the ultimatum approach - just lynch the DT first and if he is telling the truth the Mayor is Mafia. Boom - Mafia Mayor gone by the second day.
If you see any flaws in the self-checking scheme, also point that out so we can discuss.
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On March 19 2008 09:47 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 09:45 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
fusion, I'm not answering PMs like that. hahaha your response is itself an answer as was the intent
"hey shallow am I suspicious"
"yes"
Then you'll just change the question to something like "are you mafia"
I've been down this road before.
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Shallow...if fusion posted any screenshots of a PM do you really think anyone would believe him after what happened last game? If anything fusion would just be getting himself lynched.
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any messages can be forgeries
I have no interest in spin.
It is only necessary for my own self-interest
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On March 19 2008 09:47 Ace wrote:
If ANY Detective speaks up against the Mayor and we can't decide whether or not who to believe, we go to the ultimatum approach - just lynch the DT first and if he is telling the truth the Mayor is Mafia. Boom - Mafia Mayor gone by the second day.
That's what I was looking for. You've completely won me over.
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On March 19 2008 09:50 Falcynn wrote:
Shallow...if fusion posted any screenshots of a PM do you really think anyone would believe him after what happened last game? If anything fusion would just be getting himself lynched.
I know, but I'm not going to risk it.
Especially if he and Artanis are in it together, seeing as they've both sent me close to identical pm's
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On March 19 2008 09:39 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 09:32 Kau wrote:On March 19 2008 09:12 Ace wrote:On March 19 2008 09:04 qrs wrote:
Edit: @ Ace: He's saying that every bodyguard would get a PM. Their PM would list Mafia members as bodyguards. Each bodyguard's PM would list (the same) fake bodyguards as their colleagues. None of the bodyguards would know the difference. They'd still be caught. Ok let's look at like this: Scenario 1: There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with a Mafia Mayor who also sends out the PM. We will know how many BGs are there when the elections are over. The Mafia can't leave 2 of the real Bodyguards off the list because the 2 that didn't get a PM would speak up. They can't just add an extra 2 to the PM because any BG getting a PM from the Mayor with 9 names obviously means the Mayor is clearly not thinking straight and is fishy. Scenario 2: There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with an Innocent Mayor who also sends out the PM. The PMs from the Mayor don't match those 2 "fake" PMs. Even better, the names of those 2 fakers never even appear in the Mayor's original PM and they just outted themselves as Mafia for a pathetic chance at confusion. How can the Mafia possibly get away with faking any of it without drawing attention to their members? Ace, I don't see how scenario 1 would happen at all. Unless I don't understand how the game works (which is a definite possibility), this is how I see it using your numbers. What everyone knows: There are 7 bodyguards. Only the mayor knows which 7 people are bodyguards. Now, we assume that the mayor is also mafia, so he can coordinate with other mafia members. Since he knows who each bodyguard is, he will send each of the 7 bodyguards a pm. Each pm will have 7 people in it: 6 mafia and 1 bodyguard. Each bodyguard gets pm'ed back by the mafia members (6 different pm's for each bodyguard) and so they believe there are 7 bodyguards. No bodyguards are left out. Each list sent contains 7 people. Each bodyguard recieves 6 confirmation pm's. As I had said earlier, once one bodyguard dies, the other bodyguards would find out that the one that died isn't in their list and would obviously protest. Mayor gets lynched and people get the list of a large portion of the mafia, plus the mayor.
So in the case a bodyguard speaks out, we lynch the mayor?
Then what happens when the mayor was innocent and he sent all the pm's as he should. Some mafia could speak out and we'd lynch our mayor?
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On March 19 2008 09:50 ahrara_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 09:47 Ace wrote:
If ANY Detective speaks up against the Mayor and we can't decide whether or not who to believe, we go to the ultimatum approach - just lynch the DT first and if he is telling the truth the Mayor is Mafia. Boom - Mafia Mayor gone by the second day.
That's what I was looking for. You've completely won me over.
offtopic : how is DT short for detective?
DeTective?
DetecTive?
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On March 19 2008 09:50 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 09:50 Falcynn wrote:
Shallow...if fusion posted any screenshots of a PM do you really think anyone would believe him after what happened last game? If anything fusion would just be getting himself lynched. I know, but I'm not going to risk it. Especially if he and Artanis are in it together, seeing as they've both sent me close to identical pm's
oh
hahaha
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On March 19 2008 09:51 Kau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 09:39 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On March 19 2008 09:32 Kau wrote:On March 19 2008 09:12 Ace wrote:On March 19 2008 09:04 qrs wrote:
Edit: @ Ace: He's saying that every bodyguard would get a PM. Their PM would list Mafia members as bodyguards. Each bodyguard's PM would list (the same) fake bodyguards as their colleagues. None of the bodyguards would know the difference. They'd still be caught. Ok let's look at like this: Scenario 1: There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with a Mafia Mayor who also sends out the PM. We will know how many BGs are there when the elections are over. The Mafia can't leave 2 of the real Bodyguards off the list because the 2 that didn't get a PM would speak up. They can't just add an extra 2 to the PM because any BG getting a PM from the Mayor with 9 names obviously means the Mayor is clearly not thinking straight and is fishy. Scenario 2: There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with an Innocent Mayor who also sends out the PM. The PMs from the Mayor don't match those 2 "fake" PMs. Even better, the names of those 2 fakers never even appear in the Mayor's original PM and they just outted themselves as Mafia for a pathetic chance at confusion. How can the Mafia possibly get away with faking any of it without drawing attention to their members? Ace, I don't see how scenario 1 would happen at all. Unless I don't understand how the game works (which is a definite possibility), this is how I see it using your numbers. What everyone knows: There are 7 bodyguards. Only the mayor knows which 7 people are bodyguards. Now, we assume that the mayor is also mafia, so he can coordinate with other mafia members. Since he knows who each bodyguard is, he will send each of the 7 bodyguards a pm. Each pm will have 7 people in it: 6 mafia and 1 bodyguard. Each bodyguard gets pm'ed back by the mafia members (6 different pm's for each bodyguard) and so they believe there are 7 bodyguards. No bodyguards are left out. Each list sent contains 7 people. Each bodyguard recieves 6 confirmation pm's. As I had said earlier, once one bodyguard dies, the other bodyguards would find out that the one that died isn't in their list and would obviously protest. Mayor gets lynched and people get the list of a large portion of the mafia, plus the mayor. So in the case a bodyguard speaks out, we lynch the mayor? Then what happens when the mayor was innocent and he sent all the pm's as he should. Some mafia could speak out and we'd lynch our mayor?
Not one bodyguard, but several bodyguards and the detectives would speak out, most likely.
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
Detectives stay silent if the Mayor is legit, and speak up if he is Mafia
Ah, this fixes everything then. I hadn't thought of that.
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EPT
