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On March 19 2008 09:07 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 09:04 Empyrean wrote:
Especially since once the real bodyguards complain that they didn't get a PM, other mafia can as well. And if the Mayor is innocent he'd (which would be confirmed by the DTs silence) then those stupid Mafia that tried to geek the Town would be caught when the Mayor never mentions them on his list. If any Mafia member false claims they'd be caught red handed fast because this plan does not use 1 person as the word of trust - it uses several with a self checking scheme. Continue to try and find more holes in it, this is interesting and fun. Ace, he DID find a hole in it: please address it.
All the bodyguards receive PMs.
None of them receive the names of their true colleagues.
None of them know the difference.
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Kau
Canada3502 Posts
On March 19 2008 09:02 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 08:57 Kau wrote:
Ace:
About your Bodyguard plan, what stops a mafia mayor from pming each actual bodyguard with a list that is something like:
mafia 1
mafia 2
mafia 3
bodyguard #
Each actual bodyguard would get a pm back from each of the fake mafia-bodyguards and they wouldn't know.
Then once the mayor gets checked by a detective, couldn't there be fake mafia-detectives that state that the mayor is innocent? They can't because all the other Bodyguards that didn't get a PM would know something is wrong. In the event that they do that, it just helps the town because we can just apply all clues and DT/Jack power to that list of suspects and catch the Mafia asap. No fake detective is going to spring forward and state the Mayor is innocent because they run the risk at having a real detective also step forward and once again we are back to place where we have confirmed a situation with at least 1 suspect as Mafia (because someone is lying) and a sure fire Mafia lynching.
What I'm saying is that the pm is sent to every real bodyguard. Say there are 3 bodyguards. 3 pms would be sent out:
Mafia 1
Mafia 2
Bodyguard 1
Mafia 1
Mafia 2
Bodyguard 2
Mafia 1
Mafia 2
Bodyguard 3
Each bodyguard would then get pms back from Mafia 1 and 2 and thus are "confirmed".
And about fake detectives springing forward and stating the mayor is innocent, the townies have no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who isn't. We can't know when a real detective steps forward because he could very well be fake.
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What Ace meant was the real bodyguards would see it strange that they got a PM from Chuiu telling them they're bodyguard, but not from the mayor who might have left them out when PMing the bodyguards about each other.
Ace's plan = Bodyguard gets 2 PMs, 1 from Chuiu, and 1 from the Mayor telling him who the other bodyguards are. The number has to add up, anybody guard that didn't get a PM from the mayor, stands up and speaks out.
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On March 19 2008 09:10 Ghar wrote:
What Ace meant was the real bodyguards would see it strange that they got a PM from Chuiu telling them they're bodyguard, but not from the mayor who might have left them out when PMing the bodyguards about each other.
Ace's plan = Bodyguard gets 2 PMs, 1 from Chuiu, and 1 from the Mayor telling him who the other bodyguards are. The number has to add up, anybody guard that didn't get a PM from the mayor, stands up and speaks out.
You guys aren't understanding Kau's point. The real bodyguards would ALL get PMs from the mafioso mayor. The PMs would be lies, but they would all get them.
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Colombia677 Posts
I'm concerned of how rapidly those 2 achieved so many votes, empyrean I can understand but Ace... nothing against you mate.
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On March 19 2008 09:04 qrs wrote:
Edit: @ Ace: He's saying that every bodyguard would get a PM. Their PM would list Mafia members as bodyguards. Each bodyguard's PM would list (the same) fake bodyguards as their colleagues. None of the bodyguards would know the difference.
They'd still be caught. Ok let's look at like this:
Scenario 1:
There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with a Mafia Mayor who also sends out the PM.
We will know how many BGs are there when the elections are over. The Mafia can't leave 2 of the real Bodyguards off the list because the 2 that didn't get a PM would speak up. They can't just add an extra 2 to the PM because any BG getting a PM from the Mayor with 9 names obviously means the Mayor is clearly not thinking straight and is fishy.
Scenario 2:
There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with an Innocent Mayor who also sends out the PM.
The PMs from the Mayor don't match those 2 "fake" PMs. Even better, the names of those 2 fakers never even appear in the Mayor's original PM and they just outted themselves as Mafia for a pathetic chance at confusion.
How can the Mafia possibly get away with faking any of it without drawing attention to their members?
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17070 Posts
On March 19 2008 09:10 Ghar wrote:
What Ace meant was the real bodyguards would see it strange that they got a PM from Chuiu telling them they're bodyguard, but not from the mayor who might have left them out when PMing the bodyguards about each other.
Ace's plan = Bodyguard gets 2 PMs, 1 from Chuiu, and 1 from the Mayor telling him who the other bodyguards are. The number has to add up, anybody guard that didn't get a PM from the mayor, stands up and speaks out.
Read the above post. Every single bodyguard does get a PM from the mayor.
And I'm really going to be gone.
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The plan is for Detectives to confirm innocence by saying nothing, and accusing by stepping out. stepping out to confirm innocence means being hit by the mafia. But if the mayor is mafia already, then you might as well go down with him.
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On March 19 2008 09:11 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 09:10 Ghar wrote:
What Ace meant was the real bodyguards would see it strange that they got a PM from Chuiu telling them they're bodyguard, but not from the mayor who might have left them out when PMing the bodyguards about each other.
Ace's plan = Bodyguard gets 2 PMs, 1 from Chuiu, and 1 from the Mayor telling him who the other bodyguards are. The number has to add up, anybody guard that didn't get a PM from the mayor, stands up and speaks out. You guys aren't understanding Kau's point. The real bodyguards would ALL get PMs from the mafioso mayor. The PMs would be lies, but they would all get them.
Remember the other part of the plan - the Detectives. If a Mafia Mayor sent those PMs he'd be revealed by the next day. So the BGs would know something is not right once he's found out.
The thing is, any tampering with this plan means that a Mafia member has to come out of hiding to do it. And once things don't add up, we have a list of suspects to investigate and a good place to start off. I'm SURE Mafia members will try and tamper with it, and if I'm Mayor I'll be waiting for them.
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I don't think you are mafia Empyrean; i think it's way too early in the game to say anyone is mafia, but you're actions so far have not shown good judgement which is one of the things a mayor requires. Perhaps the previous game having been an important part of it and doing well you've wanted to try and live up to that in the opposite role and do the town good -- props for that, but that, i think, may have caused you to act a bit rash in this game and make some mistakes, which because of that i think it is best if you are not mayor. So far you've really not made many good points regarding being mayor, aside from declaring your role and defending that declaration and how important you're role is to the town.
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17070 Posts
The problem is, if I'm not elected anything, the town'll lose a detective. Is that a risk people are willing to take? I'm only revealing my role because it's the only 100% guaranteed method I have of ensuring a townie mayor.
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On March 19 2008 09:09 Kau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 09:02 Ace wrote:On March 19 2008 08:57 Kau wrote:
Ace:
About your Bodyguard plan, what stops a mafia mayor from pming each actual bodyguard with a list that is something like:
mafia 1
mafia 2
mafia 3
bodyguard #
Each actual bodyguard would get a pm back from each of the fake mafia-bodyguards and they wouldn't know.
Then once the mayor gets checked by a detective, couldn't there be fake mafia-detectives that state that the mayor is innocent? They can't because all the other Bodyguards that didn't get a PM would know something is wrong. In the event that they do that, it just helps the town because we can just apply all clues and DT/Jack power to that list of suspects and catch the Mafia asap. No fake detective is going to spring forward and state the Mayor is innocent because they run the risk at having a real detective also step forward and once again we are back to place where we have confirmed a situation with at least 1 suspect as Mafia (because someone is lying) and a sure fire Mafia lynching. What I'm saying is that the pm is sent to every real bodyguard. Say there are 3 bodyguards. 3 pms would be sent out: Mafia 1 Mafia 2 Bodyguard 1 Mafia 1 Mafia 2 Bodyguard 2 Mafia 1 Mafia 2 Bodyguard 3 Each bodyguard would then get pms back from Mafia 1 and 2 and thus are "confirmed". And about fake detectives springing forward and stating the mayor is innocent, the townies have no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who isn't. We can't know when a real detective steps forward because he could very well be fake.
The problem with this mafia plan is that once one real bodyguard gets whacked (say, by a vigilante), all the other bodyguards would realize something is up.
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Empyrean, you currently are in the lead for pardoner by 8 votes. I know that can change, but that's a pretty decent lead. Even if you don't get the mayor position, it seems almost certain you'll at least have body guard protection.
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On March 19 2008 09:18 Empyrean wrote:
The problem is, if I'm not elected anything, the town'll lose a detective. Is that a risk people are willing to take? I'm only revealing my role because it's the only 100% guaranteed method I have of ensuring a townie mayor.
so far it looks like you might become pardoner.. which gets protection. i just don't want you to be mayor, although the pardoner is important too, having a bad mayor/or mafia/or whatever is worse imo.
edit so i don't keep making posts: Ace seems like he'd be a good mayor, and between his plan and Ghars the town will be able to become organized which is a key point for the town to survive
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I'm honestly not comfortable with Empyrean even being Pardoner. His logic is not adding up.
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On March 19 2008 09:29 Ace wrote:
I'm honestly not comfortable with Empyrean even being Pardoner. His logic is not adding up.
preferably i'd also rather him not have mayor or pardoner, but from the current votes he's less likely to attain mayor thankfully, though thats subject to change as more people vote ;x
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Kau
Canada3502 Posts
On March 19 2008 09:12 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2008 09:04 qrs wrote:
Edit: @ Ace: He's saying that every bodyguard would get a PM. Their PM would list Mafia members as bodyguards. Each bodyguard's PM would list (the same) fake bodyguards as their colleagues. None of the bodyguards would know the difference. They'd still be caught. Ok let's look at like this: Scenario 1: There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with a Mafia Mayor who also sends out the PM. We will know how many BGs are there when the elections are over. The Mafia can't leave 2 of the real Bodyguards off the list because the 2 that didn't get a PM would speak up. They can't just add an extra 2 to the PM because any BG getting a PM from the Mayor with 9 names obviously means the Mayor is clearly not thinking straight and is fishy. Scenario 2: There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with an Innocent Mayor who also sends out the PM. The PMs from the Mayor don't match those 2 "fake" PMs. Even better, the names of those 2 fakers never even appear in the Mayor's original PM and they just outted themselves as Mafia for a pathetic chance at confusion. How can the Mafia possibly get away with faking any of it without drawing attention to their members?
Ace, I don't see how scenario 1 would happen at all. Unless I don't understand how the game works (which is a definite possibility), this is how I see it using your numbers.
What everyone knows:
There are 7 bodyguards.
Only the mayor knows which 7 people are bodyguards.
Now, we assume that the mayor is also mafia, so he can coordinate with other mafia members.
Since he knows who each bodyguard is, he will send each of the 7 bodyguards a pm. Each pm will have 7 people in it: 6 mafia and 1 bodyguard. Each bodyguard gets pm'ed back by the mafia members (6 different pm's for each bodyguard) and so they believe there are 7 bodyguards. No bodyguards are left out. Each list sent contains 7 people. Each bodyguard recieves 6 confirmation pm's.
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Colombia677 Posts
You guys are a lot like FS and Tracil rofl
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Well having empyrean as pardonner might be a good thing for the town, if he really is a detective im sure he would use is ability wisely.
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OO
That is a big hole in the plan.
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EPT
