EPTOn February 09 2016 23:54 disformation wrote:
Try to lynch him and guess if his yelling at EoD is town or not.
Try to lynch him and guess if his yelling at EoD is town or not.
Maybe this will help too:
![[image loading]](https://puu.sh/m60q5/43c0cad9e3.png)
Star Wars: The Mafia Awaken - Page 117
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LightningStrike
United States14277 Posts
Maybe this will help too: | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On February 09 2016 23:44 NocturneMage wrote: boxerfred, the second sentence is what you call hedging, which is mafia indicative. "I don't know what to make of him yet." is a noncommittal statement - not wanting to take sides. Granted in that quote alone, there is a possible town motivation, that he can be town being unsure, but mafia can say things like this and wait to see where thread sentiment goes. I think interpreting "dunno" as hedging is wrong here. I ask a question to bring attention to something. Maybe I should've said "I'm not too sure what to make of that quote so please give me your thoughts"? To the VA post itself: while the thought process of that quote appears rather towny to me, the last sentence in it ("if you believe... go for it") would be hedging, right? So this post becomes scum indicative. Do you think VA's post is scum indicative, NM? | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On February 09 2016 23:45 marvellosity wrote: Seems to me maybe it's something like: Palmar/Koshi Chezinu/VA/boxerfred then a smattering of darth and moosey and LS if you mislynch me at any point in the game I'm gonna be so mad post game because I'm really trying here. | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On February 10 2016 00:05 boxerfred wrote: if you mislynch me at any point in the game I'm gonna be so mad post game because I'm really trying here. Wait, are you putting me in a team with two guys I heavily scum read? In a team with Chezinu after I made a huge case on him that you actually like? That doesn't make sense. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On February 10 2016 00:05 boxerfred wrote: if you mislynch me at any point in the game I'm gonna be so mad post game because I'm really trying here. yes it's happened to me several times in my mafia life that i've found a bunch of things that make zero sense and i think really should come from mafia, and the guy ends up flipping town it's basically why i'm not hounding you more, because i know you can be town too. | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + kidding | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On February 10 2016 00:10 boxerfred wrote: Wait, are you putting me in a team with two guys I heavily scum read? In a team with Chezinu after I made a huge case on him that you actually like? That doesn't make sense. it makes perfect sense. Palmar was mafia. Koshi is going to flip mafia if you and chez are mafia, you're both going to get lynched and lose the game unless something changes. you making a big case on him fits that bill, it's one of the few ways if you were both mafia that one of you might survive. it's not like chez isn't already heavily suspicious | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
On February 10 2016 00:11 marvellosity wrote: it makes perfect sense. Palmar was mafia. Koshi is going to flip mafia if you and chez are mafia, you're both going to get lynched and lose the game unless something changes. you making a big case on him fits that bill, it's one of the few ways if you were both mafia that one of you might survive. it's not like chez isn't already heavily suspicious I can understand that but there are a lot of "what ifs" in that thought. Also, do you think Chez/me would be capable of doing so? If so, why would I bus Chez and not he me? | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On February 10 2016 00:14 boxerfred wrote: I can understand that but there are a lot of "what ifs" in that thought. Also, do you think Chez/me would be capable of doing so? If so, why would I bus Chez and not he me? the only ifs are you and Chez being mafia. it's not inconceivable to imagine 2 people being mafia together :p and why not? Chez has already been kinda bussing you tbh. you're just doing it properly  anyway i'm not interested in pursuing this line of reasoning with any more posts right now. I'm not saying this is actually the case, I'm saying it would be a reasonable interpretation; that it's possible. | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/buiwznE.gif) | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
whether he's actually mafia for all of it... meh i dunno, quite possibly not i also kinda really think i'd have died n1 if bf were mafia. i was the most prominent person scumreading him. it's wifommy but i know if i were in a mafia team with bf i'd have hit me for finding bf suspicious | ||
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NocturneMage
United Kingdom1965 Posts
On February 09 2016 23:31 boxerfred wrote: Can you summarize in like a bullet list why that is? I'd sheep you for your Palmar stuff from D1 that I just discovered. And keep in mind that darthfoley is currently under everyone's radar. Dunno how much I like that. Gah, I have to run and I'm probably out until 18/19 GMT. So here are all the points articulated as to why VayneAuthority is mafia (1) Day 1, he focused on me and only me, no other reads - Noon and Darthfoley do a better job of articulating this than I do to be quite honest. + Show Spoiler [Day 1, post 812 in my filter] + Possible scum VayneAuthority - I am going to do the same thing as I did with Rels and deliberately ignore any interactions with myself. Don't ever recall playing with this guy. But going through his filter, I am wondering if some of the little things are adding up here. - He calls Rels nitpitcky defending JAT. No conclusion on Rels one way or another. (post 508) - Then somewhere in the filter he says he's trying to improve my day 1....a bit interesting when JAT questions him on the named VT thing. He says he wants the lazy way out on day 1. - On that point, from VA, zero other town reads, or should I say zero town reads, period, and I am at present the only scum read. (The difference between him and Noon, for the people that say Noon has zero reads is that he's made a point of deliberately not trying to play, and VA is trying to play but I digress). This begs the question, should town proceed to mislynch me, where does he go from there? - speaking of which, he made a comment on using the named VT thing as a bait. But Rels asked me about this, (even if he said it was a reaction test of sorts after the fact) so here's my honest opinion on it. I am sceptical here that this is possibly (let alone exclusively) town - the objective should be to solve the game, thinking it through the greatest threat to mafia are the ones who try and do that. If they have blue abilities to get even more information, great. Just play the game and keep mafia guessing, no need to default/give them extra kp like that. Hypotehtical situation, say if for some reason other blues are NKed early because they are game-solvers/threats/etc (many reasons people can be shot). Say scum incorrectly blue read someone. Shot missed. Named VT claims subsequently. Just saying. Good play can narrow down the lynch pool for scum, and I don't think giving extra kp is the way to do it. Some people tend to solve better late game for instance. Just play the game and ignore mechanics for the purposes of that argument. - Marv calling out the reaction test and the purpose after the fact is another interesting point. These were the little things I had issues with VA on. (2) The vote on Palmar is suspect given his timing and explanation - see spoilers again. + Show Spoiler [all quotes/interactions] + On February 08 2016 03:33 NocturneMage wrote: There were a few things I didn't like about VA which I discussed, and he's not done much to show he's town (the lynch Palmar thing after the day 1 lynch where he's effectively claimed scum won't say much). Additionally, if Palmar is scum, his vote on Palmar is actually bad - it screams bus city for 3 reasons. (1) it was inorganic (2) it was well after concerns about Palmar had been expressed (pokes particularly by Marv early in the game I'm sure were before this) (3) it was done at a time where he needed town cred (mafia motivation is to bus for cred), because at that time, only Damdred was townreading him, or heck it might have even been before that. ritoky and I were scumreading VA to some various degree, and I don't think most of this game had a read on VA when they were asked to eval VA v myself VA prior to getting on Palmar's wagon was pushing me and when he couldn't do that, he dropped the scumread, Additionally when I pushed him further earlier on, he got very defensive. Quotes: Especially the problem with the above is that the "sleep" explanation doesn't cover for his push on me earlier and his not mentioning Palmar at that time. It doesn't answer the concern in the least. Now admittedly at this point in time, the vote thing is unflipped association, but if Palmar flips mafia, then he looks really bad despite voting Palmar. VA's reaction - On February 08 2016 03:40 VayneAuthority wrote: dam dude you are even worse then I thought. Thinking I am lying about sleeping, that is really reaching. Especially when the reason for me being mafia would make you mafia by proxy, pretty faulty reasoning. And I push him further on the matter + Show Spoiler + On February 09 2016 01:24 NocturneMage wrote: Trfel told me something valuable in the Fullmetal postgame - it's not just the timing of your vote that counts - it's also the content and your involvement related to the vote. And on your (VA) end it was pretty minimal. (1) There was no mention of Palmar anywhere in your filter prior to your vote. Marv had been probing Palmar quite a bit and voted 5 hours prior to your vote. (2) AFAIK, you were not sheeping a townread or anything like that. The basis for your vote was unrelated to the interactions with marv/Palmar/etc. Just because you voted before me doesn't make you any more townier. To be fair, I could not play most of the first half of day 1, and because I was not present in thread with Palmar, I had to use different criteria to evaluate him (as opposed to my interactions, of course there were none). Even then my case on Palmar was roughly 3 hours before marv's vote on Palmar. + Show Spoiler [Focus on timestamps] + On February 05 2016 15:45 NocturneMage wrote: Why I have a bad feeling Palmar could be mafia Palmar - read the following games for a compare/contrast: Tropical Storm, Down Under 3, Generic Boring. - In Generic Boring, he was dead wrong everywhere but he was assertive as all hell, was n1ed - Tropical Storm, looks like one right read, one wrong one (Damdred/rsoultin) but here, he goes pushing rsoultin on voting record, and is adamant he knew when to drop a townread on someone/knowing whom to sheep, not seeing that here. Important because a number of people in reading this thread are saying "game is hard" to some extent. They all can't be mafia. A cursory look through Palmar's filter - no strong town reads (i.e. I would sheep so and so) - Down Under 3 - Here, another example of one of his "absolutist" posts. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/490661-mini-mafia-down-under-3?page=52#1026 Checking OP, all but one of these are wrong. Note: I purposely ignored PYP because a) it was a themed game b) multiple mafia teams The big contrast for me is tone. I'm seeing a lot of conditionals in this game (i.e. bf might be mafia), and a lot of absolutes in the above three games. Like he's so sure of himself even when he's wrong. The one thing I notice is his main involvement with JAT/marv/Koshi - two of which I'm townreading. Leads into the big contrast is his normal meta of lynching the inactives, the scummy players, etc. I'm looking for a push or even a trifle of anything against the sheer number of lower content players or even (almost universally?) scumread/discussed myself. Nothing. From Tropical Storm - and I know he applied this in PYP Finally I re-read his Outlaw Mafia filter for day 1 to refresh his day 1 scum play (go to his filter - read pages 1-3, day 1 ends at page 3) - and I'll be honest - his game so far here is a lot closer to his Day 1 play in Outlaw. I think people should read it - there's a lot of missing town tells that were present in the three games I discussed above. On February 05 2016 20:01 marvellosity wrote: ##unvote ##Vote Palmar First mention of Palmar in your filter - On February 06 2016 00:38 VayneAuthority wrote: oh and ##vote: Palmar He is supposed to be my day 1 antithesis, the pinnacle of good day 1 play. where is that here On February 06 2016 00:40 VayneAuthority wrote: ##vote palmar That's the difference between my vote, and yours. Even though I didn't place the vote until after yours, you had zero mention of Palmar contentwise. On February 09 2016 01:36 VayneAuthority wrote: Find me games where I am invested in the lynch as either alignment, its null. That's my playstyle and many people here can attest to that. Conveniently you use meta for everyone else but not me, funny that is. Also you are putting words in my mouth, never said it makes me townie or anything. Literally could not care less about looking or being townie. I only play this game for one reason, to be right. (3) Lack of direction - again others have articulated this a lot better but here are some quotes in spoiler These are quotes that just don't go anywhere - and I mean ANYWHERE + Show Spoiler + On February 08 2016 23:38 VayneAuthority wrote: saving this post for later in my filter, suspicious and ill forget Nothing on disformation after this. On February 08 2016 03:46 VayneAuthority wrote: 1. you are tunneling 2. you are fabricating whatever your point is, the only way that explanation makes sense is if you think I was lying about sleeping. The only way I would be able to join in the palmar discussion was if i was in the thread at the time. On February 09 2016 00:34 VayneAuthority wrote: There was also the thing with NM where he says I am bussing palmar pre-emptively and at the same time paints me for things as scummy that would by proxy make him scummy! which is terrible hypocritical logic that is often used by scum. Quote on me day 2. He's been going back and forth, back and forth. (4) Remember that conversation from when he was discussing the blue roles and the named town? I think that's scummy and especially now when you take that point in conjunction with everything else. Really curious if marv can reflect on his post-hoc comment thing, it was something that jumped out to me day 1. + Show Spoiler + On February 05 2016 00:38 VayneAuthority wrote: interested in hearing people's thoughts on the named VT role. Should we have them claim here and lead the day 1 lynch, or should they just play as normal On February 05 2016 00:42 VayneAuthority wrote: well it would depend on who it is but gives a confirmed town basis. What is the cons? On February 05 2016 02:12 VayneAuthority wrote: I actually suggested the named VT thing with regards to the strongman shot, seems like good bait to have that killed rather then actually good role and i thought i played 2 normals since I came back but I guess I only played unoriginal mafia by artanis marv. On February 05 2016 02:23 VayneAuthority wrote: nah my motivation was to generate discussion/see if anyone tried to paint me as scummy for it, didnt really work. Only good players on atm. But I simply had that in my mind as an afterthought/clever play | ||
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NocturneMage
United Kingdom1965 Posts
On February 10 2016 00:03 boxerfred wrote: I think interpreting "dunno" as hedging is wrong here. I ask a question to bring attention to something. Maybe I should've said "I'm not too sure what to make of that quote so please give me your thoughts"? To the VA post itself: while the thought process of that quote appears rather towny to me, the last sentence in it ("if you believe... go for it") would be hedging, right? So this post becomes scum indicative. Do you think VA's post is scum indicative, NM? That sentence, yes, because it's a leading statement. He's not taking the stance himself, he's asking (whoever) to do it. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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disformation
Germany8352 Posts
On February 10 2016 00:39 VayneAuthority wrote: but hey if it takes my mislynch to make you realize you are a beautiful flower be my guest fixed. | ||
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NocturneMage
United Kingdom1965 Posts
I pointed out a flaw in his VCA regarding Moosy that I felt might have been "sloppy" as they said. boxerfred's answer to my question on MoosyDoosy - him coming to a more reformed and believeable view might be indicative of this. He considered both angles. so it's quite possible boxerfred is town. from before, day 1 interactions between him and ritoky as I said before were in my eyes town on town. food for thought. still haven't finished his filter though. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
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