EPTNewbie Mini Mafia LXI - Page 4
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rsoultin
Netherlands15308 Posts
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rsoultin
Netherlands15308 Posts
On February 17 2015 00:28 Trfel wrote: Pretty sure you were creating pressure from very little to get the thread going. I didn't say that earlier because saying so would defeat the purpose, as people could then refuse to respond. Which is precisely the reason why Hier's case on you (rsoultin) falls apart. While the points he brought up are good points, this is the simple explanation from a town perspective. Got it in one, lol. Okay, good, cause that's where our mindmeld starts to diverge :/ Even when I stepped back and gave him plenty of room to breathe, cause yeah, you were right that I can be intimidating and that defeats the purpose, he still was highly defensive and closed off. This makes me uncomfortable. Another thing that makes me uncomfortable is your lack of direction so far this game, unless after sleeping you're still scumreading Shining? (I have to look at that case closer, and will do that while deciding whether or not to keep pushing Hier) | ||
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rsoultin
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On February 17 2015 00:33 Trfel wrote: Uh............ Tere, don't answer this question? XD Lol -amused- I wanted to see how flustered Tere got -flicks trfel- ruining my schemes ^^ | ||
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rsoultin
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On February 17 2015 00:41 Tere wrote: Guys, keep your knickers on if I don't reply immediately, I'm going through filters and posting (that means you, Trfel!) Having had my PM I am completely confident the player in question was just completely overwhelmed and felt out of her depth and the "eep don't eat me" post and the immediate replace was just indicative of that. Incidentally rso, I'm made of sterner stuff  (You actually didn't have to answer my question, lol, but I like your answer anyway ) | ||
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rsoultin
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On February 17 2015 00:42 Trfel wrote: Okay, time for a revised post on The Shining, hopefully I'm a little more awake now.
In addition to this, some of The Shining's other posts seem to show genuine scumhunting and thinking. So I am not entirely sure on The Shining. I would definitely like to hear people's thoughts, including The Shining's. - You making a controversial opening post to "generate discussion" is something you did in your scum game xP I'm not seeing a problem with him being wary of that. - My scum game was Horn. Unless he read it, he doesn't know my scum game here, and he quite easily catches me on our other forum lol xP So I can see him being confident of a read on me, however unjustified it may be. (Also, would tend to disagree that I play scum well, but that's not really a discussion for this thread.) - I, too, disagree with his Zlefin read. Not enough to call him scum for it, but it's weak. - That last point is probably the only one I would consider scum-like...getting defensive so quickly before anyone is really scumreading you. Probably best to recheck the context. | ||
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rsoultin
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On February 17 2015 01:04 Trfel wrote: I'm not looking so much as what The Shining did, but why. I'm fine with The Shining being suspicious of me. It's the reasoning for it that is strange. I'm fine with The Shining pushing zlefin. But the reasons and strange progression of the push seem off. Side note, I might actually be back right before the deadline. No guarantees, but I will do my best. Hopefully we won't be needing any last second vote switches, though. Can you outline what exactly is strange? | ||
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rsoultin
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On February 17 2015 01:07 rsoultin wrote: Can you outline what exactly is strange? EBWOP: The slight push bit I get, actually, so it's mostly just in regards to his read on you. Still not seeing that. | ||
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rsoultin
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The defense was still a bit over-the-top maybe? Yes, I know, I know, pot calling the kettle black lol xP I get growly when people use what I perceive to be false reasons to scumread me. I don't know, Truffle. Could be, but it's not screaming scum at me at the moment. Is he going to be your vote? | ||
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rsoultin
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On February 16 2015 15:17 Hier wrote: I just don't know how far my lexicon can take me reiterating my own accusations, and I don't really see the point when you'll just rebuke it my saying I misinterpreted your quotes, thus creating a nucleus for a completely unnecessary discussion. But if you really really really want I'll do so in the morning. It's getting late here too, and tomorrow is a holiday here, so I'll have time. Here's the deal, bud. I'm not asking you to reiterate your accusations. I'm asking you to quote the 3 posts with null reads, demonstrate how my scumming you was a result of someone else criticizing your model, and show that I've generally been null reading everyone while asking questions. I want to see where you're getting your scumread from to decide whether I think it comes from town or not. Town can scumread me; I'm not an idiot xP As it stands, it makes me think you don't believe your own read when you refuse to back it up. So yes, I really really really want you to show me your line of thought, because I'd like to get scum Day 1, and right now you're reading the most scummy to me. If you're town, show me how I'm wrong. | ||
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rsoultin
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I'm liking her, honestly lol ^^ | ||
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rsoultin
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On February 17 2015 01:37 Trfel wrote: I guess it's probably best that I post this now. My thoughts on why lynching Hier isn't necessarily the best idea. Hier opened up the game by posting his Bridges method. By advocating something with direct impact on all players, people naturally responded, and it turned out that the responses were mostly negative. It seems that this immediately frustrated Hier a bit, judging by the tone of his first post after that. (link if you want it) From there, Hier is bombarded with questions. This seems to frustrate him more, and he doesn't answer all of them. One answer that he does provide is that he has no reads, which obviously leads to a whole new wave of questions. Hier posts a scumread on rsoultin. (link if you want it) This read actually isn't all that bad. While rsoultin and I have already discussed why the points addressed here make perfect sense, from Hier's perspective, it doesn't make sense. It is normally expected that someone explains their pushes, not asks everyone else for their opinions. Regardless of Hier's alignment, he is clearly frustrated. This leads to his posts being more sarcastic and less responsive, leading to people scumreading him even more (I don't need to post links to posts where Hier is clearly frustrated, it is too obvious). This also would discourage Hier from providing reads. That's why I can see Hier's play coming from a townie. His play hasn't been good, but it isn't unreasonable. That said, if he doesn't do anything to change his play in the near future, he could very well be the best lynch for the day (at least, as I see it). Thoughts? Despite a few knee-jerk reaction posts here and there :/ I've been more than willing to entertain the notion that Hier is town. Lol, this is hardly a Grade-A rsoul tunnel right now. He's just done nothing to convince me that he is town. | ||
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rsoultin
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On February 17 2015 01:44 Trfel wrote: Is Tere female? I don't think that it was specified? It would be much more convenient to have this answered, please. As for Tere's alignment, I don't know. I really don't know. This is why I didn't want Tere to answer your question. In addition to pushing (what I believe are) the rules, or at least their intentions, it provides bias that shouldn't be there for the sake of fairness. (side note, it could also be perceived as bluehunting, though I think that's a silly notion) Just posting this for reference, in case anyone else is wondering about Tere's previous mafia experience. Tere seems to have a reasonable grasp of the game, and what he/she is saying makes sense, but I need to look more closely to separate the logic from its implications on Tere's alignment. Lol, truffle, maybe I'm missing a rule somewhere, but evaluating a player without considering the player they replaced seems foolish and not against the rules xP Interesting to know she's a bit more experienced, though (can kind of get that from how she's approaching the game, anyway). Mostly my liking her was based on how she's approached her reads. I'm asking you cause I know that a large portion of it is just I like her tone lol >< Me and my tonereads. | ||
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rsoultin
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On February 17 2015 01:49 Trfel wrote: To elaborate, my initial concern is that Tere's reads are more based on mafia ability than alignment indicative information. It is really easy to say why someone is wrong and call them mafia, or say that someone makes sense and call them town. But that isn't scumunting. I noticed that Tere's lynch list seems to definitely put those who have played more games higher on the list. Good point on the scumhunting. Will take that into consideration. Though I think generally people who have played more have an easier time getting townread, anyway. | ||
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rsoultin
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On February 17 2015 01:53 Trfel wrote: For the record, I'm dropping the point in your first paragraph because I don't believe it serves any further purpose, not because I agree with you. Would you mind taking another look at Tere and start with the assumption that Tere is a reasonably experienced and capable mafia player? I will do the same. It's a mindmeldy problem that has me biasing toward townreading her, reading her filter. I'm liking her reads in general except, ironically, the one on Hier because I don't really see how his model plays into his alignment and she had it as a reason to scumread him. Yeah, she could be pocketing me lol but at least some of her reads express things I've just thought and haven't actually posted. Regardless, I doubt I'm lynching her today. | ||
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rsoultin
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On February 17 2015 02:12 Tere wrote: Perhaps I haven't expressed myself clearly enough in my WOT on him. I don't think the model structure is town helpful, in fact I think it hurts town. But I don't think posting it is that alignment indicative. Insisting you are going to adhere to it in the face of rejection by the rest of the group does look scummy though, IMO, as it provides perfect cover for not needing to give reads. That post and the general refusal to give reads throughout is what's pinging my scumdar. I don't read that post the same way. In context, he was trying to get support for his model from Truffle, and when asked why he'd stick to it by himself, he claimed that getting just one more person to support it would probably lead to more -shrugs- Which seems viable enough to me. It's the lack of desire to put in work, the clamming up and dodging questions, and the determination to stick to his guns regardless of any other evidence that presents itself that bugs me. Can I see this coming from frustrated newbie town? Absolutely. But I also know it's difficult to change positions as scum, because it's harder to generate reasons for changing your mind or stance. It's also pretty easy to hide behind set-up speculation or policy, and this mechanism falls into the set-up category. | ||
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rsoultin
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On February 17 2015 02:13 Trfel wrote: I just realized. There's been almost nothing going as far as counterwagons to Hier. Just a really small push from The Shining on zlefin. If Hier really is mafia, I would expect to see some sort of counter push (unless it actually is a The Shining and Hier scumteam). This makes me even more hesitant to lynch Hier. It just really feels like a typical newbie game Day 1 mislynch. Tere, I don't know at the moment. And rsoultin, I'm really hesitant to lynch someone who is making sense when they have just replaced into the game. That seems silly. You and Shining both are countering xP JJB also doesn't want to lynch Hier unless I'm misremembering. There's enough counterpush here with only two scum in the game. That said, I'd like to see a counterwagon since I'm still waiting on Hier's response to me. | ||
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rsoultin
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Why you're fighting this Hier lynch so much, yet voting for him anyway and setting up for an AFK vote...it is not giving me the warm town fuzzies. | ||
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rsoultin
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On February 17 2015 02:30 Trfel wrote: I'm not going to afk vote. Please. I take full responsibility for my vote. I'm just letting you know that you may not have my support for a vote switch late in the day. I'm showing resistance for the Hier lynch for several reasons. The first being that there isn't many other people fighting it, and the lynch isn't as solid as I would like. The second is that if people have other ideas, I would really, really, like to hear them, and not have the lynch sealed up. The third is that if Hier does come back, if my "frustrated town" guess is correct, having some support would make him MUCH more likely to try and defend himself. If you believe I'm town this game, trust that I will definitely do my best to try to bring the towniness out of Hier before lynching him. I wanted you to start that counterwagon, though, since you seem so certain that Hier is not the lynch. You're not starting it. This is concerning. But apparently you have to go, so I'll just...lol, figure it out from here as best I can xP | ||
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rsoultin
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On February 17 2015 02:35 Tere wrote: Experience copy / paste from coaching board. "I'm not really a complete newbie - just new to Team Liquid. I've probably played in 20 - 25 timed forum mafia games in the past 4 - 5 years, and read about the same number. However, quite a few of those have been on very casual sites where reading and analysis really isn't a thing, hence the shift (I hope) to a site that plays a little more seriously." So I've played quite a few games, but I'm not always the greatest case maker, and I tend to rely on tonal reads probably more than I ought, if I'm honest. Lol, I think this makes you the most experienced of all of us, then xP I'm currently playing my 8th and 9th games here...and have played several on a site that rarely sees more than 10 pages per game. (That's where Shining and I are from). Hm...I don't think Truffle thinks you're bussing Hier. He really doesn't seem to think Hier is scum. My problem with his arguments is they argue Hier to null, not really to town. I'd like to see some more input from he lower-volume players. Can you talk to me about Zle? | ||
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rsoultin
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Zlefin, do you mind explaining to me what sort of information you think you'd gain from lynching Trfel? | ||
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