|
On June 23 2014 12:47 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 12:33 YouKnowZhou wrote:tl;dr VE is scum, for reasons I outlined earlier. Let's lynch him. So, I made some noises (link) about the possibility of VE being town earlier. However, having taken a look a the facts, I do not believe the fact that VE backed off from me should significantly impact my read on him. I initially thought the backing-off may be deserving of a townread since a scum VE could potentially get me lynched with effort, and the "fake anger" strategy was working well. However, I believe I was selling short how good a job I had done of appearing co-operative. I had made it so even a scum VE would have to tone down the anger, would have to not ratchet things up and continue yelling at me. I'm going to refer to my end-of-day case here, so please read it: (link). VE has not since responded to it, and I'm going to address his semi-responses and cast a vote on VE. I'm also going to talk about the posts he has made since I made that post, at the very last moments of the night. The relevant part is here: On June 22 2014 08:59 YouKnowZhou wrote:3. VE should not be left off the hook. Remember, during the time when I was trying to get in a last set of reads (sorta) before getting lynched, when I was chipping in an we were having real discussion? Suddenly, VE is "angry" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=33#651 and afks until right before the deadline. I explain how VE's actions during the last few hours of D2 are pretty clearly scum-motivated here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=38#758 . His response is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#762Take a look at how he responds. He talks about sloosh looking good, and leaves out the fact that I have had to prod him multiple times over everything, doesn't address the fact that his reasoning was that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and disliked snickers and me on mderg: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721Remember, later on, when VE is in the thread, Release, one of the two guys he likes, is on mderg, and Snickers, one of the guys he doesn't like, is on me. So, he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721). It is, however, more convenient, just like VE's fake anger (until he got called out for it and realized I was being super reasonable), or VE's afking right after I start engaging my thread, up until riight before the deadline. In fact, it's also interesting that he tries to shut down snickers' posting here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#766but hey, dont' worry guys, after he gets called out, half an hour later VE says it was a joke. Of course, I don't see ANYTHING joking about that read at all, so I guess I'm missing something, but it's awfully convenient http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22411055. Also, note that VE was pretending to be mad at me up until he realized it was looking bad, then decided to stop being mad at me just long enough to address the case I made against him. All these convenient afks, fake anger, and convenient "jokes" telling people to stop engaging the thread are all things that VE has tried to brush off, but this coupled with VE's low contribution amount this game (don't look at his filter size-- even though he has 3 pages he has spent a lot of it being afk or pretending to be mad at me) it's basically clear he's scum. First off, let's look at VE's "last minute" post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=828&topic_id=458796This post, in which VE asks for a vigi shot, is in the very very last second of the night. I tried to make my post at the very last second before the deadline, but VE actually slipped this in between my post and the deadline. Now, you may think, "it makes sense for VE to ask to be shot. After all, maybe he's worried he'd get lynched as a townie and doesn't want to waste town's time". That's true, but look at the timing; there's absolutely no way that VE is going to get shot when he posts at that time, when it's too late for anyone to do anything. So what's the purpose? I can't find one other than "it makes VE look a tiny bit better", but honestly it's so see-through that the only thing I can think of is that VE is just trying to make noises that he thinks a townie would make, and he screwed up. Who asks for a vigi shot when it's too late for vigis to shoot? Remember, ve was in the thread about 10 minutes earlier (link) as well as throughout the night, he had plenty of time to ask for a shot and he didn't until it would make no difference. Next, VE retcons (link) how he was feeling about mderg during D2. It's true, VE made a scumread on mderg, but who was VE voting, even when his stated reasons for voting changed conditions? It was me, not mderg. Ve made all the noises about wanting to lynch mderg, and he even said that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and he wasn't voting mderg because Snickers and I were voting mderg. (link). Then, when release votes mderg and snickers votes ykz, VE stands by his vote. Remember, it was "2 townreads on the ykz wagon, 2 scumreads on the mderg wagon, that's my main reason here." When one of his townreads votes for mderg and one of his scumreads votes for me, what's the deal then VE? This has never adequately been explained, except when he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721). So, VE made a lot of NOISE about being fine about the mderg wagon. I totally agree with him that he certainly liked to WRITE that he was fine about the mderg wagon. He definitely made up reasons that he voted me over mderg. But when those conditions changed, and his reasons didn't make sense any more, he didn't swap to mderg, or even try to re-evaluate. No, instead he "got mad" at me (link) and "happened" to be afk during the crucial time leading up to the lynch. But enough about D2; let's talk about D3. VE lays out his scumreads for today, which are me and Sloosh he says he's conflicted, and his heart says bh and his head says sloosh (link). He then asks for help. He doesn't have questions, he doesn't have cases to write. He doesn't ask me to clarify anything (Despite apparently now being cool with cooperating with me) and he doesn't try to address sloosh in any way. When artanis replies, VE responds by quoting his nk speculation in which he's telling me he's "giving me a pass" for D3. (link). This is in contradiction with his previous post, but I consider this contradiction to be a towntell rather than a scumtell. The issue with this post isn't that he contradicts himself (townies often do this) but that when someone offers an opinion, he just drops a quote and doesn't press on. Then, he just says "chez ur on the table today" (link) and it's like fairly clear at this point VE is just trying to figure out which way the wind is blowing. I'm amazed he hasn't made a koshi case yet . So here's where things get interesting. He's back onto the "gk kill means something" train (link) and trying to give himself credit for the mderg lynch again, but look at what he says about GK specifically On June 22 2014 10:17 VisceraEyes wrote: This was the post that solidified my read on mderg - he mentioned something I also noticed (and mentioned actually) and he ended up dying in the night. However beyond this you're right, at the end of the day he ended up on the "mderg town" side of things. :/
Frankly the only thing I can see GK being killed for is either a busted role-hunt or to implicate me somehow (he ended up scummy on me at the end of the day). Good to know. At this point, VE is not in fact looking at GK's post and trying to evaluate it for merit. He's not saying "i'm gonna read this case or post with fresh eyes, as though GK were still alive, since GK was shot and is conftown". Instead, he's focusing his opinion on the scum part of the thing, the fact that GK was killed. GK could be killed for all kinds of reasons, and it can be valuable to speculate about it at times, but look at VE here. He's not using dead GK as some kind of resource to read, looking at the cases and posts like someone who's townie would. Instead of looking for GK's logic, his mind goes to reasons scum would shoot GK. I consider this to be a minor point in comparison to the end-of-D2 stuff. But it's a point. Buddying me (link) but more importantly an attack on sloosh. Why defend a scumread, VE? He defends himself, but not against my case (link). The taking credit thing is clever and annoying but not on its own an issue. It's really wroth noting that the 2nd post, about original posts, is spot-on. During D2 VE is mostly just chucking out rando reads without following them up, probably looking to see what sticks before writing a case. After losing his partner, VE wants to not overstep his leadership, which means toning down the nasty and buddying with me, and being like water and changing his shape to fill the container. As I wrote this post, he decides to vote me and of course does not write or reference a case: (link)On June 23 2014 12:16 VisceraEyes wrote: slOosh do you still think BH is mafia? Release does. And I think I'm rescinding his pass for his BS last night.
##Vote: YouKnowZhou I'll just leave that post in which VE votes me with no explanation, next to this quote from VE just 10 hours earlier: On June 23 2014 02:42 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 22 2014 17:45 slOosh wrote: Righto. Nothings changed. Any questions? I'm an open book.
##Vote YouKnowZhou This isn't true at all, something HAS changed. THIS cycle instead of having only one townie tunnel on his resume, BH has now pushed and voted for scum. That HAS changed and you don't just get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without explaining why he does that as mderg's mafia partner. So I guess VE, besides all the points against you, something HAS changed. I have now pushed and voted for scum. You don't jsut get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without some explaining why I do that as mderg's mafia partner , in the words of a wise man. ##vote VisceraEyes So i never even thought about that but YKZ how much do you think people will want to lynch you if we lynched VE and he turned town. This does not push the thread forward but I think it is interesting. Also this reminded me that i think you were going to comment on my play or something to that effect. Are you still going to or do you have more time demanding things.
I can comment on your play if you'd like. I think you're putting effort in and are not my #1 scumread so I have very little interest in lynching you today.
I don't care one whit how I look if I'm wrong, I'm lynching who I think is scum, and that's VE. If I lynch anyone else, I'm much less likely to hit scum. So, not relevant for 2 reasons, both of which are "my goal is to lynch scum, not appease dumb townies and opportunistic scum"
|
On June 23 2014 07:43 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 07:27 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 23 2014 07:17 slOosh wrote: So Lazer, mderg started N1 / D2 with scum reads on VE and Snickers, and that's what he went with. Could you explain your interpretation of this scum strategies? I've been having some trouble articulating my thoughts on this as well. So, when I do association, I try in general to do it the other way. If we look at flipped scum mderg, here's what we see: It's noteworthy that mderg scumreads VE (link) and votes him, and only votes me when it's clear only mderg or I can be lynched D2. That being said, in my opinion the most valuable associative tells are not based on what the flipped mafia did, but what other people did TO the flipped mafia before the flip. As I have mentioned before (link), this is a much more valuable form of information. The dying scum's goal is typically to throw off town and make it difficult to find his allies after he flips. this isn't to say there isn't info to be gained from mderg's filter, but the info to be gained from how other people interacted with him is much greater, in general. This is only true when the scum anticipates dying. mderg's vote against VE came early D2. It's categorically true as the correct way to read associative tells. You read what the people wrote about the flipped scum, not what the flipped scum wrote about people, because the quality of info is higher. You will read lots of townie opinions about the flipped scum, which aren't intentionally deceptive, rather than a bunch of opinions that are intended to mislead.
I ALWAYS (take a look at my link in the quoted post) read what people wrote about the lynched scum, rather than vice versa. This is because this is the most reliable form of info and leads to good scumreads. What mderg said is dust; words are wind. Look at what was said ABOUT mderg.
On June 23 2014 07:45 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 07:34 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 23 2014 07:17 slOosh wrote: So Lazer, mderg started N1 / D2 with scum reads on VE and Snickers, and that's what he went with. Could you explain your interpretation of this scum strategies? I'm not scum so I can obviously just guess here. I have already explained why I don't think its very unlikely that VE and mderg were scum bros. And why is Snickers even relevant here? He was suspected by many during D1-D2. It was one directional, it that you explained why VE's actions fit a VE mderg scum team. I'm asking how mderg's actions, namely voting VE, makes sense in a VE mderg scum team.
So the one-directionality of LM's analysis here is a feature, not a bug. Do you understand what i'm getting at here, and why my method of using associative tells has a much lower error rate?
On June 23 2014 13:24 slOosh wrote: YKZ could I ask who your #2 scumread is?
Yes. However, I am pretty unwilling to vote ANYONE but VE. I am not interested in discussing my secondary scumreads except to appear helpful to other townies and not get lynched, and to encourage them to read the VE case. I am writing this response
Here is my response: the vast majority of my attention is on VE, and nobody else is close to VE in terms of how scumy I think them. I wouldn't mind lynching snicks for some of the shit he did D2, but he has been writing a large amount of text so I'm going to evaluate how he is going forwards. I'm vaguely aware I ought to get around to making a serious read on Koshi, but I can't imagine what I could read that would be even a tiny bit more convincing than what I've seen from VE. If people post more cases I'll pay attention and see if I find anything convincing, but I anticipatOn June 23 2014 13:24 slOosh wrote: YKZ could I ask who your #2 scumread is?
Yes. However, I am pretty unwilling to vote ANYONE but VE. I am not interested in discussing my secondary scumreads except to appear helpful to other townies and not get lynched, and to encourage them to read the VE case. I am writing this response to you because I want you to take a look at my case against VE and analyze it critically and put serious effort into it. I get that you're voting me, whatever. Just respond to my case in more detail than you have, and you will ensure my co-operation for the rest of the day. Listen to me, read what I have to say, and respond.
I'm assuming you accept my terms. Here is my response: the vast majority of my attention is on VE, and nobody else is close to VE in terms of how scumy I think them. I wouldn't mind lynching snicks for some of the shit he did D2, but he has been writing a large amount of text so I'm going to evaluate how he is going forwards. I'm vaguely aware I ought to get around to making a serious read on Koshi, but I can't imagine what I could read that would be even a tiny bit more convincing than what I've seen from VE. If people post more cases I'll pay attention and see if I find anything convincing, but I anticipate nothing will get me to move off VE. I'd say, snicks, for reasons related to D2, and then maybe Koshi, in terms of reads that aren't VE. e nothing will get me to move off VE. I'd say, snicks, for reasons related to D2, and then maybe Koshi, in terms of reads that aren't VE. Niether is a good lynch today.
|
On June 23 2014 13:35 Chezinu wrote: You know I love you. It's sad that you neglected to mention how VE had been spreading the lie that there were only 2 mafia this game. It is like he was saying that to cope with only have two active mafia and I thought I only trolled the hosts.
I cannot wait until the cop reveals that rolecheck from last night. Are you as excited as I am Koshi?
Eh, any kind of "slip" is as llikely to come from town as scum, if not more, so I don't think it's relevant to my case. Thank you, though, for your attempt at helping.
As a VT, it's not my position to judge when blues should claim. I don't have the info they do. Generally they should claim to avert a mislynch or if they have a red check, but honestly ball is in their court for that judgement. I just hope they have appropriately crumbed any checks in case they get shot.
|
On June 23 2014 14:01 Snickers wrote: YKZ if you have time, what is your view on goodkarma being killed? Is there actual information that it gives or is the information such a long shot, that it is not worth evaluating compared to what people post in the thread. If it does give information can you comment on it.
I'm glad to weigh in, though I'm afraid I don't have a lot to add to what has been said, so I'll just clarify what I believe so that people know.
I basically have no thoughts on gk being killed. Maybe it was a bluesnipe, maybe it was because he and I have a pyschic link where we spare each other in games, or maybe it's cause people thought he was town and he was an unlikely protect target. Since it's possible he was killed for his reads, it is prudent to examine his filter.
Highlights are: he knows I'm BH since we are connected, he calls release and me scummy and votes me. he criticizes me. I reach out to him with my Words and he relents. He briefly questions Release, implying he htinks release is scum. he votes 27nb.
Then, during the endgame shenannies, he goes after VE. he says:
On June 18 2014 08:32 goodkarma wrote: ##Vote: VE
It's pretty clear he's not interested in keeping up with this game and is spewing whatever comes off the top of his head. Not clearly scum-aligned thought process, but a clear liability. And there's also that he lied about his history, which is pretty durned scummy.
Then he swaps to 27nb when VE isn't a real option, and calls 27nb and mderg both "bad lynches"
So, what do I make of this? Well, first off,
I would be surprised if scum shot gk for his reads, because he was defending mderg, who was scum, even though VE is probably scum GK attacked him, which means gk was wrong on at least one serious read
gk's case on VE came from a townie. the historical lies and top of the head stuff aligns iwth how VE was playing today. I'm not saying gk was shot for this case, because the shot clearly wasn't based on his reads. I'm saying that whatever you can say about GK's case against VE, you can at least say this: he meant it and was honest, as he is modconfirmed town.
And honestly, reading that little snippet, that could be written about VE's action today, couldn't it? the wisdom of GK speaks to us even in his death.
|
On June 23 2014 14:49 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 12:23 Snickers wrote: Release can you comment on Lazer Monkey's posting? I think somebody already did but I would like to hear your thoughts.
Also when you say "guys" whoever else thought that Sloosh was mafia. That seems really suspicious.
Also Release can you comment on the goodkarma kill? Do you even think it has merit?
See above, and if you are too lazy, I feel like he's grasping at straws, casting suspicion and trying to see what sticks. I thought Artanis commented earlier but I just wanted to catchall. Think of it what you will. I think the goodkarma kill was to kill someone not involved in controversy/chaos, a situation in which the majority of the us were. He attacked me and YKZ early in the day before focusing on VE. At that point, he hadn't said too much except this Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 08:32 goodkarma wrote: ##Vote: VE
It's pretty clear he's not interested in keeping up with this game and is spewing whatever comes off the top of his head. Not clearly scum-aligned thought process, but a clear liability. And there's also that he lied about his history, which is pretty durned scummy. . There is the possibility that mafia silenced him before he could say more, but I'm more inclined to believe the first sentence in this paragraph. And for a note: I'm reading VE similarly to mderg, in that I feel his posts are somewhat suspicious but understandable in accordance with a town agenda. Also, the blatant meaning of his words do not nearly indicate as much mafia as mderg's did. Yeah and I'll leave this here until something new comes up: ##Vote Lazermonkey
Given that GK spoke out strongly in defense of mderg, it's highly unlikely he was shot because of his reads, since one of them was obviously wrong. That doesn't mean he was wrong on VE, however. The points he makes in that post are factually accurate, and we also know that his motives were pure.
|
On June 23 2014 15:01 Release wrote: Absolutely. But it's not a particularly strong read nor is it necessarily correct as to VE's alignment. His "clear liability" has held, but mafia and therefore worthy of a vote? I don't believe so at this moment.
I'd like to talk to you about your read on VE. you said early on that his lurkiness was bad, but not as bad as mine (link) and mid day 2 you say his activity indicates otherwise (otherwise what?) and that he's generating discusison, then you ask for opinions on him and never follow up (link)
At the end of Night 2, you said VE is climbing back into your suspicious territory, where he apparently always lives (link) and you ask Snickers to look into him (because you think VE is scum? this isn't clear to me) (link). You defend VE from lazer and note that lazer is a more serious candidate than VE (though now I'm pretty sure Ve is leading in the votes) (link). Lastly, you finish by saying you read him similar to mderg, who flipped scum, but then you say in the same para that VE isn't as mafia as mderg, and vote Lazermo (link).
So I guess my question is, can you give me a straight read on VE? He has always been "scummy" or "risinginly scummy" in your book, and you ask people about him a lot, but you never write a concrete case against him, or even interrogate him seriously. What's going on here, Release? what do you really think of VE?
|
On June 23 2014 15:14 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 15:01 Release wrote: Absolutely. But it's not a particularly strong read nor is it necessarily correct as to VE's alignment. His "clear liability" has held, but mafia and therefore worthy of a vote? I don't believe so at this moment. I'd like to talk to you about your read on VE. you said early on that his lurkiness was bad, but not as bad as mine (link) and mid day 2 you say his activity indicates otherwise (otherwise what?) and that he's generating discusison, then you ask for opinions on him and never follow up (link)At the end of Night 2, you said VE is climbing back into your suspicious territory, where he apparently always lives (link) and you ask Snickers to look into him (because you think VE is scum? this isn't clear to me) (link). You defend VE from lazer and note that lazer is a more serious candidate than VE (though now I'm pretty sure Ve is leading in the votes) (link). Lastly, you finish by saying you read him similar to mderg, who flipped scum, but then you say in the same para that VE isn't as mafia as mderg, and vote Lazermo (link). So I guess my question is, can you give me a straight read on VE? He has always been "scummy" or "risinginly scummy" in your book, and you ask people about him a lot, but you never write a concrete case against him, or even interrogate him seriously. What's going on here, Release? what do you really think of VE?
Also, I would like you to directly address and respond to the specific concerns I bring up in my case against VE. If I'm wrong, (and I don't think I am, but then again, nobody who is really wrong thinks they're wrong), I want to know I am wrong. Tell me why this case doesn't make sense, or why VE is townie anyways, or why Lazermo is a better lynch along these parameters, but please, tell me this is wrong if you think it is wrong.
Read the case (link). Let me know what you think. Be straight with me, as I am trying to be with you.
On June 23 2014 12:33 YouKnowZhou wrote:tl;dr VE is scum, for reasons I outlined earlier. Let's lynch him. So, I made some noises (link) about the possibility of VE being town earlier. However, having taken a look a the facts, I do not believe the fact that VE backed off from me should significantly impact my read on him. I initially thought the backing-off may be deserving of a townread since a scum VE could potentially get me lynched with effort, and the "fake anger" strategy was working well. However, I believe I was selling short how good a job I had done of appearing co-operative. I had made it so even a scum VE would have to tone down the anger, would have to not ratchet things up and continue yelling at me. I'm going to refer to my end-of-day case here, so please read it: (link). VE has not since responded to it, and I'm going to address his semi-responses and cast a vote on VE. I'm also going to talk about the posts he has made since I made that post, at the very last moments of the night. The relevant part is here: Show nested quote +On June 22 2014 08:59 YouKnowZhou wrote:3. VE should not be left off the hook. Remember, during the time when I was trying to get in a last set of reads (sorta) before getting lynched, when I was chipping in an we were having real discussion? Suddenly, VE is "angry" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=33#651 and afks until right before the deadline. I explain how VE's actions during the last few hours of D2 are pretty clearly scum-motivated here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=38#758 . His response is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#762Take a look at how he responds. He talks about sloosh looking good, and leaves out the fact that I have had to prod him multiple times over everything, doesn't address the fact that his reasoning was that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and disliked snickers and me on mderg: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721Remember, later on, when VE is in the thread, Release, one of the two guys he likes, is on mderg, and Snickers, one of the guys he doesn't like, is on me. So, he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721). It is, however, more convenient, just like VE's fake anger (until he got called out for it and realized I was being super reasonable), or VE's afking right after I start engaging my thread, up until riight before the deadline. In fact, it's also interesting that he tries to shut down snickers' posting here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#766but hey, dont' worry guys, after he gets called out, half an hour later VE says it was a joke. Of course, I don't see ANYTHING joking about that read at all, so I guess I'm missing something, but it's awfully convenient http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22411055. Also, note that VE was pretending to be mad at me up until he realized it was looking bad, then decided to stop being mad at me just long enough to address the case I made against him. All these convenient afks, fake anger, and convenient "jokes" telling people to stop engaging the thread are all things that VE has tried to brush off, but this coupled with VE's low contribution amount this game (don't look at his filter size-- even though he has 3 pages he has spent a lot of it being afk or pretending to be mad at me) it's basically clear he's scum. First off, let's look at VE's "last minute" post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=828&topic_id=458796This post, in which VE asks for a vigi shot, is in the very very last second of the night. I tried to make my post at the very last second before the deadline, but VE actually slipped this in between my post and the deadline. Now, you may think, "it makes sense for VE to ask to be shot. After all, maybe he's worried he'd get lynched as a townie and doesn't want to waste town's time". That's true, but look at the timing; there's absolutely no way that VE is going to get shot when he posts at that time, when it's too late for anyone to do anything. So what's the purpose? I can't find one other than "it makes VE look a tiny bit better", but honestly it's so see-through that the only thing I can think of is that VE is just trying to make noises that he thinks a townie would make, and he screwed up. Who asks for a vigi shot when it's too late for vigis to shoot? Remember, ve was in the thread about 10 minutes earlier (link) as well as throughout the night, he had plenty of time to ask for a shot and he didn't until it would make no difference. Next, VE retcons (link) how he was feeling about mderg during D2. It's true, VE made a scumread on mderg, but who was VE voting, even when his stated reasons for voting changed conditions? It was me, not mderg. Ve made all the noises about wanting to lynch mderg, and he even said that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and he wasn't voting mderg because Snickers and I were voting mderg. (link). Then, when release votes mderg and snickers votes ykz, VE stands by his vote. Remember, it was "2 townreads on the ykz wagon, 2 scumreads on the mderg wagon, that's my main reason here." When one of his townreads votes for mderg and one of his scumreads votes for me, what's the deal then VE? This has never adequately been explained, except when he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721). So, VE made a lot of NOISE about being fine about the mderg wagon. I totally agree with him that he certainly liked to WRITE that he was fine about the mderg wagon. He definitely made up reasons that he voted me over mderg. But when those conditions changed, and his reasons didn't make sense any more, he didn't swap to mderg, or even try to re-evaluate. No, instead he "got mad" at me (link) and "happened" to be afk during the crucial time leading up to the lynch. But enough about D2; let's talk about D3. VE lays out his scumreads for today, which are me and Sloosh he says he's conflicted, and his heart says bh and his head says sloosh (link). He then asks for help. He doesn't have questions, he doesn't have cases to write. He doesn't ask me to clarify anything (Despite apparently now being cool with cooperating with me) and he doesn't try to address sloosh in any way. When artanis replies, VE responds by quoting his nk speculation in which he's telling me he's "giving me a pass" for D3. (link). This is in contradiction with his previous post, but I consider this contradiction to be a towntell rather than a scumtell. The issue with this post isn't that he contradicts himself (townies often do this) but that when someone offers an opinion, he just drops a quote and doesn't press on. Then, he just says "chez ur on the table today" (link) and it's like fairly clear at this point VE is just trying to figure out which way the wind is blowing. I'm amazed he hasn't made a koshi case yet . So here's where things get interesting. He's back onto the "gk kill means something" train (link) and trying to give himself credit for the mderg lynch again, but look at what he says about GK specifically Show nested quote +On June 22 2014 10:17 VisceraEyes wrote: This was the post that solidified my read on mderg - he mentioned something I also noticed (and mentioned actually) and he ended up dying in the night. However beyond this you're right, at the end of the day he ended up on the "mderg town" side of things. :/
Frankly the only thing I can see GK being killed for is either a busted role-hunt or to implicate me somehow (he ended up scummy on me at the end of the day). Good to know. At this point, VE is not in fact looking at GK's post and trying to evaluate it for merit. He's not saying "i'm gonna read this case or post with fresh eyes, as though GK were still alive, since GK was shot and is conftown". Instead, he's focusing his opinion on the scum part of the thing, the fact that GK was killed. GK could be killed for all kinds of reasons, and it can be valuable to speculate about it at times, but look at VE here. He's not using dead GK as some kind of resource to read, looking at the cases and posts like someone who's townie would. Instead of looking for GK's logic, his mind goes to reasons scum would shoot GK. I consider this to be a minor point in comparison to the end-of-D2 stuff. But it's a point. Buddying me (link) but more importantly an attack on sloosh. Why defend a scumread, VE? He defends himself, but not against my case (link). The taking credit thing is clever and annoying but not on its own an issue. It's really wroth noting that the 2nd post, about original posts, is spot-on. During D2 VE is mostly just chucking out rando reads without following them up, probably looking to see what sticks before writing a case. After losing his partner, VE wants to not overstep his leadership, which means toning down the nasty and buddying with me, and being like water and changing his shape to fill the container. As I wrote this post, he decides to vote me and of course does not write or reference a case: (link)Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 12:16 VisceraEyes wrote: slOosh do you still think BH is mafia? Release does. And I think I'm rescinding his pass for his BS last night.
##Vote: YouKnowZhou I'll just leave that post in which VE votes me with no explanation, next to this quote from VE just 10 hours earlier: Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 02:42 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 22 2014 17:45 slOosh wrote: Righto. Nothings changed. Any questions? I'm an open book.
##Vote YouKnowZhou This isn't true at all, something HAS changed. THIS cycle instead of having only one townie tunnel on his resume, BH has now pushed and voted for scum. That HAS changed and you don't just get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without explaining why he does that as mderg's mafia partner. So I guess VE, besides all the points against you, something HAS changed. I have now pushed and voted for scum. You don't jsut get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without some explaining why I do that as mderg's mafia partner , in the words of a wise man. ##vote VisceraEyes
|
On June 23 2014 15:20 Release wrote: VE has always been on of my candidates for mafia outside you. Although you disagree, I don' think he has done anything blatantly mafia and therefore he has only remained a candidate, and not worthy of a vote. Lazer on the other hand when I revisited his filter went from strong town Day 1 to useless D2 and D3, which pushes him ahead of VE, and snickers. I'll leave this here while I visit address your case.
This gives me no indication that you have in fact read my case. I understand that you do not agree with my case. But surely you think my vote could be better used then, right? The case reflects my thoughts. Please, refute it and convince me, using whatever logic that has convinced you, that my case is wrong. I would like to hear it.
|
On June 23 2014 15:24 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 05:03 Snickers wrote: .... I specifically said what makes him scum.
4 lines? Lol I would say that is a weak case when we are 45 pages into the game.
If you really want four lines here it is.
Ve has multiple times taken credit for things he has not done and has not pushed the thread forward with his own original posts. Also his interaction with mderg seems to be a set up to prove he is town.
Also YKZ any thoughts on this? I understand if you do not want to read my unreadable post, so this is a bit more friendly.
Here are my thoughts.
VE has deffo lied about his willingness to lynch mderg, and his reasons for doing so. The fact that he has taken credit for things is supremely annoying given how unhelpful he has been this game, but is not on its own imo indicative of scum. I agree that he has not driven / led the game like he has the potential to as a town player. He has carefully opted out of interactions with a player like me with well-timed "afks" and "anger" and thus has not stepped into a position of leadership as much as you would expect of him. The fake anger was also broken off as soon as it was clear it was no longer useful to him and making him look bad. The extra helpfulness is not in and of itself a towntell imo since he's not using that co-operation with me to really do anything. Where is he ever asking for my input on anything? In a universe where VE was town, even if he thinks I'm scum he'd try to keep me talking about what he wanted to talk about (as many people do; everyone asks me questions) and try to learn more about my motivations.
Lastly, it's obvious VE didn't actually want to vote mderg. His reasons about "who's on what wagon" obviously broke down, then he post-hoc rationalized that "sloosh was his rock" which is not the explanation he gave before.
|
What do you mean by nested quite? Are you unable or unwilling to open them?
|
On June 23 2014 16:43 VisceraEyes wrote: BH literally mever puts this much effort into games as town.
Ninight.
Unless you're trying to make a meta case against me for being pro-town, I don't see where this is going.
On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: @"fake anger" I think it's more believable that your arrogance was a play than his fake anger. When you make claims of grandeur, you imply that you will not listen to others' reasons, which is exactly what you did on day 1. It's more likely that you wanted to waste time and cause VE to appear more suspicious than he actually is.
since first p.graph in quote addresses afk, read above.
Of course it's believable that my arroganice is anti-town and his anger was legit, but look at it this way: When push comes to shove, I'm always here, asking questions, pushing my cases, interacting with people, and pushing the thread forward. The fact of the matter is, my arrogance, however annoying it might be, has never inhibited my ability to push my reads, be available and helpful during lynches, or make sure that in the event of my death town has all the tools it needs to win. VE, on the other hand, conveniently only gets mad when it serves him (ie, to afk during the mderg vs BH lynch right after I return to the thread and start being helpful). Note that as soon as it's night time and no longer useful for him to be mad, it goes away, until I make a case against him again and he starts all this fake frustration that people view as townie. His emotions are literally always the most useful for his current purpose (lurk, not lurk, etc).
Which paragraph in the quote? You say "Read above" but I am having trouble seeing what you refer to. Could you post a link or a quote so that I know what you are talking about, please?
I'm not sure what you're referring to in this section below: can you please link or qutoe what you're responding to?
On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: @ 2nd: Don't know why he would include the part about you. The nested quote doesn't but the quote does? Even if you're talking about the nested quote, he agrees with himself and his statements are not contradictory. I do concede that the imcompleteness of the nested quote implicates VE for not being candid, but it's a stretch to say mafia for this.
You say that VE is "not being candid" (again, not sure what your'e talking about here) but that it's a stretch for mafia to say this. I'd say that lack of honesty is more of a stretch for a townie.
On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: Sloosh rock? Yeah it's suspicious but it still sounds like his reasoning is the nested quote. He only mentioned me and sloosh in response to your question, which seems definitely secondary to his original reason.
It SOUNDS like his reasoning in the nested quote, but look. His reasoning originally was based on 4 reads. He didn't say anything about sloosh being special or "his rock" until I pointed out that 2 of his reads moved-- and then he CHANGES his explanation from "I think these 2 guys are scum and these 2 guys are town" to "sloosh is the only read that matters". Clearly, his vote didn't come from his explanation, but the other way around: he needed an explanation to justify his vote, so he changed his explanation. Don't you see this? Town makes votes based on explanation, scum makes a vote, then makes an explanation to justify it. VE's explanation no longer made sense so he made a new one, something that SOUNDS like the old one so peopel don't notice but is different enough to justify a vote on me.
On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: Sarcasm? It's a stretch to say it's serious. Town necessarily should be included in discussion. It is direct contradiction, and no one should (and didn't) agree without question. Why is it a stretch? There's literally nothing in there to indicate it's sarcastic. Why is the second part (don't post any more, or you're scum) sarcastic, but not the first part (your posting makes you look townie)? Can you explain what makes part of VE's sentence sarcastic and the other part not? Look, it wasn't like he ended the sentence with a bunch of exclam points or a LOOOOL or something. He said it absolutely straight, and this is the internet. You're really tying yourself into a knot to say that this is a stretch.
On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: afk. Read above. Not sure what your'e referring to here. Can you quote or link?
On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: vigi sounds like sarcasm, especially "stupid and scummy" = emulating YKZ. Vigi cannot possibly react quickly enough to actually do so. The point is that the Vigi thing CANT be a real call fora v igi shot. The WHOLE POINT is that the vigi cannot react quickly enough to do so. That being said, this is a super minor point in the case.
On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: @next paragraph: read my sloosh rock paragraph. Again, suspicious yes. But it sounds more like he was led into this by you, not alone. He wasn't LED into it by me, I asked him a direct question, like I've asked a ton of people in this game, and responded to it by retroactively changing his explanation for why he voted me. Remember, he had a different explanation, and when I proved that wrong, he made up a new one. If Sloosh was really his rock, he'd have said so the first time. He didnt.
On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: nested quote...
D3 for referece---------------------- I don't understand this part of your post.
On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote: first two points OK. But if he gives you a pass, means that he suspects Sloosh more. I've been passing on you as long as you discuss stuff. A pass =\= townread. Not sure what your'e referring to with "first two points", but how could he possibly suspect Sloosh, who is his "rock"? Of course, it's plausible his reads have evolved and sloosh is no longer a townrread for him, but note he is now voting me along with sloosh, despite during D2 seeming to care a lot about who was on what wagon.
On June 23 2014 16:12 Release wrote:The point about chez is understandable. Chez writes hidden messages. Not too hard for Chez to reveal the meaning of his messages, but VE wants more information? Understandable. this precedes this Consistent enough. I agree that the second part is rather useless. Attack on sloosh, seems to defend you as a corollary. His pass on you expired?
Or he got tired of waiting to see which way the wind was blowing, saw some votes on me, and decided he could slip a vote in.
|
On June 23 2014 15:20 Snickers wrote: Release and YKZ if you are still around. What do you make of the day one posts. Sloosh highlighted the alignment of players. I do not think all of mafia would of been on 27nb. So i think it is very likely that, not to call you out but release lazermonkey or ve is scum. So it is obvious i think Ve is the most likely out of the mentioned three. Release is most likely not. As with lazermonkey, I read his filter and I thought it looked townie, somebody just mentioned he was playing well day one then dropped off day two or vice versa.
So you most def do not want me to harp VE. If you have not yet, look at my post where I comment on where mderg says "honestly". I think mderg slipped so much with words it may have clued us in on other scum.
Here's my VCA for the end of D1. I've highlighed our 3 flips that we'd have, which is 27nb and gk for town, and mderg for scum.
D1 final votecount 27ninjabunnies (7): YouKnowZhou, Artanis[Xp], mderg, Chezinu, Koshi, slOosh, goodkarma YouKnowZhou (1): Release mderg (4): Snickers, VisceraEyes, 27ninjabunnies, Lazermonkey
Two big wagons. One on a town, one on a scum. The wagons are 3 votes apart, so with 2 or 3 scum we can expect they have the option to split their votes rather than all vote 27nb to protect mderg. It's worth noting that the gk shot is suggestive that scum wasn't too worried about mderg during N1. If the scumteam was all on 27nb (say there are 3 scum) then they would imo be worried about mderg and be less likely shoot a big mderg defender, gk. This would be because they'd see that mderg has basically half of the town's votes on him and only scum voting could save him. if they had 1 or 2 votes on the mderg wagon, they see it as scum-driven and are not worried about mderg getting lynched d2 so they shoot gk n1.
All this, however, is only in probabilities, not absolutes. I do not typically consider VCA to be a major component of my cases, and it's certainly not the kind of thing to convince me VE is scuml; my case against VE is here: (link). However, if this is the kind of thing you like (VCA and nk speculation), you can infer from the gk kill that scum is probably not concerned too much with shooting people killing mderg, which means there probably were not 4 townies voting mderg, which means VE is more likely to be scum.
But seriously though, read my case (link)
|
On June 24 2014 00:09 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 15:30 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 23 2014 15:24 Snickers wrote:On June 23 2014 05:03 Snickers wrote: .... I specifically said what makes him scum.
4 lines? Lol I would say that is a weak case when we are 45 pages into the game.
If you really want four lines here it is.
Ve has multiple times taken credit for things he has not done and has not pushed the thread forward with his own original posts. Also his interaction with mderg seems to be a set up to prove he is town.
Also YKZ any thoughts on this? I understand if you do not want to read my unreadable post, so this is a bit more friendly. Here are my thoughts. VE has deffo lied about his willingness to lynch mderg, and his reasons for doing so. The fact that he has taken credit for things is supremely annoying given how unhelpful he has been this game, but is not on its own imo indicative of scum. I agree that he has not driven / led the game like he has the potential to as a town player. He has carefully opted out of interactions with a player like me with well-timed "afks" and "anger" and thus has not stepped into a position of leadership as much as you would expect of him. The fake anger was also broken off as soon as it was clear it was no longer useful to him and making him look bad. The extra helpfulness is not in and of itself a towntell imo since he's not using that co-operation with me to really do anything. Where is he ever asking for my input on anything? In a universe where VE was town, even if he thinks I'm scum he'd try to keep me talking about what he wanted to talk about (as many people do; everyone asks me questions) and try to learn more about my motivations. Lastly, it's obvious VE didn't actually want to vote mderg. His reasons about "who's on what wagon" obviously broke down, then he post-hoc rationalized that "sloosh was his rock" which is not the explanation he gave before. Have you read VE in recent games? He really doesn't step up to this leadership position you expect of him anymore. He plays a lot more passive than he has in the past. I think the reason he wanted to lynch you over mderg is definitely fishy, but I can imagine a town VE just being sick of you. You did play a very antagonistic game earlier on. That said, I can also easily see the scum motivation and it's definitely a real option. The amount of people that want to lynch VE gives me pause. Need to re-eval but brain is not working.
If what you say about VE's leadership potential is true, then I suppose that part of my case doesn't add up. However, it's worth noting that VE's changing reasons for his vote for me and his "anger" towards me are both superbly timed if his goal was to not help town and have a good excuse for doing so. Yes, it's imaginable that town VE was just being sick of me. In fact, I would expect scum VE to only ever feign anger in a game when town VE would imaginably be sick of me. Whatever I may say about myself, VE is a perfectly competent player. When he's scum, you're not gonna find him like, making huge mistakes and doing vastly scummy things. He's not gonna be angry at me for literally no reason. He'll only do it when he has a reason, but he'll do it strategically, to help himself. This is part of the point: he got mad and afked right when I came back into the thread and started asking earnest, friendly questions; I said that I accepted being lynched and wanted to have a discussion before I flipped, and he responded by swearing at me. If I came back and said "you guys all suck, I'm the best, bow down before me" then sure, the anger is believable. But I came back to help, was being helpful, and VE just happened to get angry and "Ragequit" the thread from when I came back to moments before the lynch.
Convenient, explainable by potential town motivation, and super unhelpful to town. It's an amazing play for scum VE, and honestly it's still not 100% clear that I'll be able to lynch him for it. It was superbly executed, and though like any well done scum play there's lots of niggling things that dont' make sense to a townie, but are hard to pin down. I promise you that scum VE will not typically look like obvscum. The best you'll ever be able to say about scum VE (when he's having a good game) is that yeah, he doesn't look super town, but you don't think he's the best lynch choice right now. Yeah, what he said makes a lot of sense for scum to say, but you could see town saying it. Yeah, he's scummy, but you dont' want to lynch him. He'll have an off game or two where he gets easily lynched as scum; we all do. But typically, a scum VE is not easily caught. This is not an easy catch. But it's a catch.
|
On June 24 2014 01:02 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 18:58 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 23 2014 07:44 VisceraEyes wrote:What are the main points against me? Are they here in Artanis' post? On June 23 2014 05:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 23 2014 05:03 Snickers wrote: .... I specifically said what makes him scum.
4 lines? Lol I would say that is a weak case when we are 45 pages into the game.
If you really want four lines here it is.
Ve has multiple times taken credit for things he has not done and has not pushed the thread forward with his own original posts. Also his interaction with mderg seems to be a set up to prove he is town.
If you think wordiness is what makes a case strong or weak you have a lot to learn about this game. Syllogism himself mentioned somehing similar and he's considered possibly the best town player of TL. The idea is that you have to have a very concrete reason for why someone is scum, the rest is just supporting evidence and not quite as important. It's those four lines that you push your case on and elaborate when you have the attention of others. You've mentioned three things: -Taking credit for things he hasn't done -Hasn't pushed the thread forward with his own original posts -His interaction with mderg seems to be a set up to prove he is town. I can now assess whether I agree with that read by going through his filter myself, and I can consider if I think those things make VE scum. I'll do that later. ...because if so, then I'll address them here. 1) I've never taken credit for things I haven't done. Any credit I've tried to take has been for things I've done. If you can point to posts where I'm doing this, then I'll kindly point to the post that shows me doing the thing I'm taking credit for. This point is false. 2) I've pushed the thread forward as much as I can whenever I can. Even though my play can be described as lackadaisical D1, I maintain that I clearly elucidated my intentions that cycle and indeed attempted to get a good lynch with what little posting time I did have. And while it's true that my vote ended up on the not-flipped-scum on D2, during that whole cycle I did nothing to dissuade votes on mderg and indeed pointed out several times that I was absolutely fine with mderg eating a lynch instead of who my vote was on. I've been pushing a pro-town agenda all game, and to say that I haven't pushed the thread forward with my own original posts is false. 3) This is your own personal opinion that is colored by your bias that you think I'm mafia. However because I'm town I know that this point is also indeed false because I set nothing up with mderg to "prove" I'm town. I cannot speak for others but theese are my main issues with you: - You say that Bunnies is "supertown" yet you do nothing to defend her once she is up the blocks.- You make your case on mderg but have no follow up. You say that you think both mderg and YKZ is scum yet you ONLY push YKZ. Its like you want to keep both doors open insted of taking an active stance. - You were one of the main components in the YKZ-wagon. 1) I was absent during the main pushes of her lynch. This is the least active day of mine and this is evident in the thread. I can't push something when I'm not looking at the thread, similarly I can't push /against/ something if I'm not looking at the thread.
You call 27nb supertown here, well after the case against her is underway:
On June 16 2014 14:42 VisceraEyes wrote:So while I may or may not share the opinion that "The Kenpachi Rule" actually works or whatever, it's pretty much scientifically proven that you cannot discover the alignment of a player based on whether he is properly applying the tenets of the rule or not. That he's spoken at all makes me not want to lynch YKZ, and I think that bunnies is like supertown based on what she's saying and how she's arguing. I'm more interested in lynching people like BH sitting back and tossing in occasional kindling like the following Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 11:12 Blazinghand wrote:On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote: i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. and are content to sit back and watch it all burn.
8 hours later, you're in the thread (link) 10 hours after that, you're in the thread calling sloosh (who much later would be your rock) scum (link) what's telling though is that 8 hours after, you are (link) in the thread and have time to, and I quote:
So I wrote this big post about why I think slOosh is mafia because he thinks Artanis is mafia, but then as I started picking apart slOosh's reasoning...
And this is about 12 hours out from the deadline when 27nb is lynched. Look at this big post you wrote (then uwnrote) and your picking apart of reasoning, but nothing to stop the lynch on the supertown? Not even a word?
I give you credit for asking people about mderg, but you never follow it up to call people out or pick apart reasoning, and you stand by and let your supertown read get lynched. When you are asked about it, you claim you weren't around, but let's be real here: you wrote a big post, then didn't post it, according to you, and picked apart reasoning, according to you, so clearly you had town. You claimed you espoused a clear townread of the 27nb wagon (link) but you clearly didn't advocate it. And yet here you are to pick up towncred when your townread dies, eh? and you say that your absence didn't cause a mislynch on its own (link) and it's true you made a decent mderg wagon (not enough to actually get him lynched, but still). However, you never weighed in on 27nb. You made a supoertown read on her early in the day, then ignored her as she got lynched. Yes, I lynched her and was wrong. But you got her alignment right, and did nothing to save her, and she flipped and proved you right.
And you were afk, but had time to write a huge post, and never posted it.
How convenient for you; or perhaps more likely you're scum.
On June 24 2014 01:02 VisceraEyes wrote: 2) There's followup. I give reasoning for thinking he's susupicious (you may not like the amount, but it's there) and I ask a couple of times where votes are/why people aren't voting. Pretty standard "I don't have time to actually push here, but I think you should be lynching X" stuff D1. On D2, I make a case (which Snickers will tell you is his case, but I made it not even knowing Snickers was SUSPICIOUS of mderg) and yes, I vote for BH. But my active, stated stance is "I like both of these lynches". That is explicit in my posts, that's the active stance I take. It's not that I don't WANT to make a choice between them, it's that I don't have to because I think they both scum.
You SAY you're fine with both lynches, but when your explanation for voting me over mderg goes away, you still vote for me. And you also conveniently get mad and afk at the critical time. You can make all the noise you want about how you wanted to vote for mderg, but when it comes down to it, you didn't vote mderg, and your lack of voting does not make sense.
On June 24 2014 01:02 VisceraEyes wrote: 3) This is true, and unless you think BH is like supertown (lol) then I don't know what the problem is.
Ultimately your case boils down to you don't like my playstyle, which is NOT news, we've had friction before I think. However if you're on my team this game, you should really move your vote off me and onto BH.
Not gonna happen for anyone here, VE. If you guys want to check out a more fleshed-out case about VE's lack of consistency on the underlying reasons for his vote, and his convenient-for-him afking and rage, check out my case here: (link)
|
On June 24 2014 01:52 VisceraEyes wrote: 1) While this is true, it doesn't make me scum nor would I spend my posts doing this if I were scum. WIFOM or whatever, but I'm just sayin.
2) I don't think coming in and poking fun at the way BH is reacting to things a "big attempt". Basically it was just me coming into the thread and reaffirming that I was on the right lynch. I never made ANY attempt to pull votes OFF mderg, which is the tack you have to think I was going for, but that's not what I did and that's not the effect of my "push" on BH. I made it clear that I wanted to lynch both of them.
3) Okay I'll disregard because subjective.
LM if you're town you REALLY have to not vote for me here. I don't know if BH is scum, but I DO know that he's wrong about me. I'm town, and I THINK BH is scum. If I'm wrong whatever, that's fine. But I KNOW FOR A FACT that he's wrong about me and you should not lynch me.
2) you didn't just "come in and poke fun". You were in the thread half an hour before (link) and two hours before (link) you decided to make this post and AFK until the deadline:
On June 21 2014 06:49 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 06:17 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 19 2014 20:40 VisceraEyes wrote: Ready To Read BH Yet?
Meeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhh........................I think he might be mafia. He hasn't had any direct interactions with me due to timing and our respective AFK periods, but frankly the bunnies push felt contrived to begin with, and that he stuck with it only to see her flip green raises red flags to me. He makes a special point to say how GODLY he is at Mafia too, insinuating how BAD he is at town right? Sounds like preknowledge of his main target's flip to me. It's a weak read, but he's my worst read. I put it off because I was scurd, but now I might get lynched and it doesn't matter if I scurd anymore. I think he's mafia based on what's in the thread.
Does this accurately summarize your reason for scumreading me? Also, can you be specific about who you like and don't like on the wagons? What do you care? I'm too stupid to be reasoned with.
It's obvious you were available, and now that your'e claiming that your anger was "poking fun", I don't get why you happened to just afk until right before the deadline, unless of course you are scum. Your explanation doesnt' make sense, and your claim that you just dropped by the thread is a lie, you had been in the thread for some time when you made that post. In fact, you posted at the same time as I made the post you responded to, then waited, then made the angry post, then afked, if we want to be clear about the timeline.
On June 24 2014 03:57 Lazermonkey wrote: YKZ, I skimmed through your filter very fast but couldn't find what I was looking for.
What do you think about Release? You mention him and talk with him alot. You seem to disagree with alot of his opinions. Do you think he is scum or just bad?
Release is being annoyingly difficult to interact with. He's incoherent and it's not clear what he's talking about. I'm not gonna let this stop me from interacting with him. He made some nicer posts earlier ( case on snicks, I believe, that I thought revealed a good town though process) that make me unwilling to lynch him unless he continues to prove difficult to interact with. The fact that when directly called out, he responds to me, however poorly formatted that response may be, indicates to me that he's at least tryint to engage with people this game. I'm unwilling to lynch him today.
|
On June 24 2014 04:04 VisceraEyes wrote: Still town BH. You're STILL wrong. <3
This is not a reasonable defense. Calling oneself town is not convincing. Saying things like "I know that I'm town, so we shouldn't lynch me" (which you're doing a soft version of here in the thread) is meaningless. The fact that people find it meaningful is annoying.
On June 24 2014 04:06 slOosh wrote: So I've given YKZ's case an honest read.
If my understanding is correct, this is what it is distilled down: - VE said his preference for YKZ over mderg was based on what the wagons looked like. Namely town reads (slOosh, Release) on YKZ, not town reads (Snickers and YKZ) on mderg - Towards the lynch deadline, a couple of votes shuffled around, such that Release and Snickers switched wagons - VE stayed on mderg
Is a correct interpretation of what you are saying?
On June 24 2014 04:10 slOosh wrote: Right, in which case I find the case quite weak. He was ok with both, and he used the people on the wagon as tiebreakers. Town could do that, scum could pretend to do that as town. Null.
This is one of a few parts of the case, but remember, VE didn't just stay on mderg, he then changed his reasoning for staying on mderg. If he said "eh, with 1 scum and 1 town on each wagon, I'm gonna go with my own judgement and vote YKZ, I think he's scum for reason X" there would be no case. Instead, he gave no explanation, and when called out for it, he said "oh, the only one of those reads I cared about was sloosh, sloosh is my rock". VE wanted a reason to not vote for his scumbuddy besides "I think YKZ is scum", and he wanted something that would SOUND like he was being consistent, so he continued with his "I'm working off of a townread voting pattern" solution but only for Sloosh. The fact that he felt a need to retroactively change the reason for his vote indicates to me that he's scum.
Also, his fake anger and afk, and his non-defense of 27nb both factor into this. Think about it, of all the things I said, me reaching out to other players and being reasonable is possibly the least incendiary thing I've ever said in any game ever. I said that I accepted death, and that I wanted to leave something behind when I die, and VE responded by faking anger and afking until right before deadline. This is not a real anger, it's a well-timed anger (and he was not, as he said, just poking into the thread-- he had been posting earlier, when I made the post that addressed him) designed to prevent him from looking bad. It looks like it may have even worked on you guys.
|
On June 24 2014 04:19 VisceraEyes wrote: So I think there's at least one mafia between me, Lazermonkey and Snickers because we all WERE on mderg on D1 and WERE NOT on mderg D2.
This is a very thoughtful point and is an indication that VE may in fact be town.
On June 24 2014 05:00 Snickers wrote: So whatever you guys do,make sure to consolidate. Also anybody that has voted Lazermonkey since the beginning really look at how ve is reacting to pressure.
I'm paying close attention. It's worth noting that VE seems to only vote me during times when it seems I might get lynched by the natural flow of votes, and when he meets the staunch resistance of the fact that (in my opinion at least) I'm fairly obviously town, off he goes. VE has spent this day looking for an easy wagon, and now he found one in lazermo. The reasoning he gave behind the vote is rock solid, though, so what I'm going to do now is go read up on lazermo and give my opinion. Let me know if you guys have any questions for me.
|
On June 24 2014 05:01 VisceraEyes wrote: Yes look at how concerned he is that he's going to die. LOL
Look at how he tries to get the lynch off a townie and instead onto scum! SO SCUMMY!!!
You've made 4 or 5 posts now basically saying "I personally know I am town, so don't lynch me" and that makes me much more comfortable in my vote on you.
|
On June 24 2014 05:06 VisceraEyes wrote: Like now it doesn't matter what you do BH. Who fucking cares what your opinion of Lazer is, in Lazer v VE you've made your fucking bed. There are votes enough for Lazer to lynch him instead of me. Fucking deal wit it.
I'll say what I believe is right and vote who I believe is scum. You can say or do what you want but nothing will silence my voice or snuff out the ringing clarity of truth in my words.
|
I still have one tool left with which to lynch you, VE, should it come down to that. I will read on lazermo and you shall have my read. I do not anticipate being swayed to vote him over you, especially since this case appeared only when you were on mortal danger. In the end, though, I'll have my say and I'll do my best to be right. I'll remind you that one of us lynched mderg yesterday and the other is you.
|
|
|
|