Ban List 2.0 Breakout Discussion - Page 12

On January 27 2014 23:21 Oatsmaster wrote:
If someone who does it flips town, its a towntell right?
So you just dont like the way people play. I guess you shouldnt play then.

Although, who afked and was obviously scum and flipped town in SMB? Nobody.

On January 28 2014 00:24 marvellosity wrote:
Ain't that just sad.

On January 28 2014 04:50 WaveofShadow wrote:
Odin I think you just have to take mafia a little less seriously. You get waaayyy too emotionally invested from what I've seen of you.

On January 27 2014 23:57 DarthPunk wrote:
Why would you quit just cause people disagree with you. Makes no sense.

On January 28 2014 00:28 kushm4sta wrote:
oh no i dind't get viged. I got killed by scum n1 so don't mention me in your nonsense odin

On April 14 2014 07:11 gonzaw wrote:
The problem with the "appeal to emotion" stuff is when it's something that gets personal. Nobody gives a shit (or they shouldn't) if somebody says "I swear on my cat's titties that I'm town", but there are other situations where it could affect the one on the receiving end (generally a townie).
I guess it depends on the lengths we are willing to go to in this game. Do we want this to be jolly good fun, or do we want this to be a Game of Thrones setting? Do we only allow normal lies and normal play, or do we also allow psychological manipulation against the manipulated's volition? How do we want our mafia games to be played? How do we want our community to play theses games?

For example, imagine player A had a sister that died in the Holocaust. Should player B, who is scum, be able to make an appeal to player A like "I am not scum A, you know your sister would think the same if she were with us! Player C is Hitler!" (granted this is a stupid example)? If he can't, should player B be able to make said appeal if he's town instead?
This is an extreme example since it's obviously aimed at player A and his experiences, but similar appeals could be made that are subtler. At what point do you draw a line?

The simplest way to solve it is if nobody did it, as either town nor scum. If you are town and you have that kind of stuff you want to say in the thread to "help" your cause, just don't. If you are scum and can "fake" or manipulate someone in such a way, that you know will help you win tremendously, but would be seen as an "unethical" kind of manipulation, just don't.
Nobody should force anybody to do anything, nor force bans on stuff like "I swear by my life", etc. We just make a silent agreement to not do this kind of stuff voluntarily. If it slips or happens every once in a while, well, tough luck. But in general, it would be better to avoid this kind of tactics I believe, so it maximizes the fun of all players, and not just the one that uses said tactic to try and win the game.

'Nother example. If you are playing football, and you are going to score and are 1on1 with the keeper, and you are falling, do you try and take a dive so the ref gives you a penalty? If you do so convincingly, then you can get the penalty. If the ref notices it, at worst you get a yellow card. Based on the rules, this is allowed, and in this specific situation it would be your best bet to win the game (since you are falling and won't be able to score otherwise). Should you dive or should you not?
Similarly, if you are scum in a game, and are falling (getting lynched, whatever), you can try and take a dive (make an appeal to townies). You know that if the ref notices it (townies figure out you are bullshiting), you'll get a yellow card (get lynched), but if the ref misses it (townies fall for it), you'll get the penalty and score (avoid lynch). Now, this behaviour is not "allowed", and it is the ref's job to notice this kind of things (townies should notice when scum is bullshiting with such kind of appeals), yet it is possible for the ref to miss it, making it a viable tactic for a player to use to try and win their game. But should that player use said tactic or not?

More importantly, is this analogy correct or not?
If it is, then what does it make you think about this kind of behaviour in games?
If it is not...then GG I guess I'm stupid. Did you watch the Barcelona match yesterday? LOL. Also damn Liverpool can win the Premier League, this seemed so fucking unexpected half a season before.

On April 14 2014 07:25 Blazinghand wrote:
I personally make the opposite agreement. I non-silently, loudly agree to voluntarily, regardless of alignment, do anything within the rules of the game to win that I think will work. I will post photoshopped pictures of plane tickets, I will lie about how long my dinner lasts, I'll talk about how I just got dumped by my gf and feeling depressed. As long as the hosts allow it, I will do it, if it gives my side a better chance to win. No matter what.

On April 14 2014 07:56 gonzaw wrote:
Well BH, I guess you are the exception then. But at least we know we can ignore you if you do that kind of stuff, but we don't know if we should ignore it or not when random dude X does it.

So BH, imagine you are scum getting lynched, and to avoid suspicion you have to come up with a story about how you were cooking porkchops the entire time. At what lengths would you go to make us believe that story? How would you crack the porkchop defense?
(hint I'm hungry)


Anyways, how about this:
We all agree to silently abide by that rule (don't do weird "unethical" mafia plays). Yet, if you don't believe in those rules, and believe you should be able to use those tactics in games, then you should be like BH and tell everybody that you will use those tactics at any time you see fit clear and loudly, so we all know about it.
Thus, if we find BH or some dude that did the above doing weird mafia plays, we'll know and can prepare (and either believe him or not). But if some other random dude does it, we assume he agreed with the silent treaty from above, so this must be an exceptional case, and not him doing this voluntarily to fuck us up.

On April 14 2014 10:39 AxleGreaser wrote:


Well apparently you will lie in the ban list thread.... to further your future potential scummy agenda?

From my observation, there is rather large pool of things you do NOT do as town. I have never seen you make comparison between a players posting style and Idi Amin. While your play in LX as town was out in direction 'X' as town,(unlike how you have often played since) you did have a cop red check you were pushing.+ Show Spoiler [Edit(errata)] +

It is the list of thing you usually do not do as town that I suspect Gonzaw referred to. No one is asking you to play like your maiden aunt would. As you understand the value of getting other players sheep your play as town, indeed leading wagon and getting other people to vote for it is the essence of town. The alternative of throwing enough unpleasant emotive shit around that everyone feels they need gumboots to even read the thread.

I too, in order to win, will do anything that I will do as town as scum. (Its the much larger list of things other people do as town that I wouldn't want to do as as scum) If there were appeals I could make as town that I'd feel too bad to make as scum,... they would be towny seals by another name. When I played in LIX I was scum, the list of things I didnt(and wouldnt) do the day i was lynched as scum is now on the list of things I also wont do as town. (Lie about my RL sleep patterns is one. I woke up when I said I did in that game.)

The only reason I don't post fake pictures about my dinner, (because that is really such a convincing argument as exemplified by all the times BH did it and it swayed the thread.) is because RL due to my TZ does in fact impact my ability to play the game and it would make the game lot less fun for me if i had to be sure to able to reschedule all my sleep patterns so it wouldn't. Hence I don't lie about sleeping not because I think no one else should either but because it makes the game less fun for me. So I don't put on an unatural act about RL impacting on my game, but I also post about it(RL as scum) as scum.(I don't like getting lynched for no good 'mafia related reason' as town or scum, so as both I truthfully speak up if "I was recently asleep you twits." )

That the game has rich variety of 'metas' where I wont lie about my sleep but BH has zero qualms lying about his dinner is not for me any problem at all. That adds richness variety and (mild) spice to the game. It also needs some chilli peppers and curry. I am pretty sure no one ever found playing game where BH has pictures of his dinner unpleasant, now if you had claimed to be eating Brussel sprouts then that would have been different.

Indeed if you want to draw line on behaviour it really ought be on what acceptable, (not unfun for others) that people do as town. Scum get to do all that, its kind of the point, so what you wont do as scum is not question for me, its what you wont [*or dont*] do as town.

TLDR: Idi amin, maiden aunt, sheep, gum boots, unatural act.
+ Show Spoiler +


BTW oops I think I did post fake pictures of BHs dinner and claimed it as mine (or something like that) when I was scum. My bad. Apparently its sleep i wont lie about. Sleep is important and not to be trifled with.

On April 14 2014 13:33 AxleGreaser wrote:


It worked for you, when you started taking the game too seriously.
If I ever get angry (and stay that way) about the game I am sure I will take a break for a while, and yes that is ez.
However (so as to not just sweep what I don't like under the carpet)
Arranging things so fewer people have to take shorter breaks less often is not so ez. (esp the ones that take permanent breaks.)
Also that not the only reason people take breaks sometimes permanent ones..

If anything my biggest problem is people who don't seem to know when _they_ ought take a break. Reading their bile and drivel (they post as town, and then having to decide, yep all that bleh... its a towny having an extended hissy fit instead of taking a break.)
in the thread is not actually what I call fun. I am not angry, that is not fun.

In say LVIII scum stomped town, and lots of the "blame" for the crap in the thread came from, was enhanced by or the flames were fanned by scum.... bravo...
They (as is their job) very effectively exploited the recent towny paradigm of shitting up threads as town, they did it as scum and got away with it. As I recall they shitted it up so much Marv raged out, and if a guy as successful as Marv can be raged out of game, then we are not talking small amounts of shitting up the thread being mistaken as plausible town play...

Trouble is when town not scum regularly behaves in such way that so many people take breaks you get lonely. Then its not ez. If you are perfectly happy with how many people currently 'flip the game the finger and find they have better ways to spend their life' then its still easy I suppose. There will always be a never ending stream of newbies to haze I suppose.

I am not angry.
I have not read a game of mafia for a while where I thought "hey yeah, I really wish was in that game, this thread is so much fun to read I just want to be part of the fun....." usually I just think OMG I am glad I don't actually have to read that guys posts and decide if he really is (in RL) that X,Y,or Z, or is he faking being like that as scum to shit it up, or is he some deluded towny who thinks faking being like that is helping town. That probably goes double for the last champions game... where they lynched my strongest town read... ( i was actually rather relieved when I found at least some of the people, lynching my best town read, for BS, were scum, its their job. If they'd all been town, I might have been angry for a little while.)

TLDR: game bleh, hissy fit, not angry, just not fun. BS.

On April 14 2014 13:49 WaveofShadow wrote:
We need another Shadow game....that one was pretty solid and as far as I remember, like 95% drama-free.

On April 14 2014 13:55 DarthPunk wrote:
If it isn't fun for you don't play.

We should not censor people's play or what they do in order to fulfill their win condition. Moderating play style based on what is appropriate/ not appropriate is purely subjective.

People should not rage quit the game. People should not cheat. People should always try their best to play to their win condition.

These are objective standards that we can all agree with. Anything further than that becomes subjective.

If you follow all of those things I am sure you will rarely get into problems with the ban list.

AS for behaviour. That is part of the game. The game is argumentative and adversarial by nature.

Abuse is a tool in the mafia players arsenal and can be used to discredit the person you are arguing against, their argument or both.

It can also be used to make them doubt themselves and their reads.

Matyring and raging are legitimate tactics as scum because it emulates a natural town reaction to being falsely accused.

They are also a natural and expected reaction from wrongfully being called a liar repeatedly as town.

If people don't like the adversarial nature of the game, don't like the way the game has evolved etc. then the simple answer is to take a break.

If that break is permanent then that is fine. If you don't find the game fun you should not play it.

But it is my belief that the game is the way it is by it's very nature. The meta on TL has caused mafia to be played at a very high level, much higher than on various other sites I have played on and what we are discovering is the natural progression of the game of mafia.

Once again, we cannot change the nature of how to play mafia, nor should we try to. If it ceases to be a game some people enjoy playing that is fine. Stop playing.

On April 14 2014 13:57 AxleGreaser wrote:
[deletia button itis]

@Gonzaw you appear to addressing a non existent (to my knowledge) question
(actually maybe not, I think i misread you sorry)



I am pretty sure I have not seen anyone complain about the plays of anyone that was scum. Even after LVIII I dont recall people saying 'gee wiz scum should not do that'.

I for instance cant recall a single tactic that a scum player used in any game I played in that troubled me.
(well only one and only a little... and I think I might have been wrong to be troubled, and i suppose I was only troubled in that I thought perhaps no towny should do that... and no towny did. Hardest part was working do townies do that in this game(I was pretty sure I wouldn't as it would not be constructive).)

In games I watched I don't recall a single scum tactic (that wasn't modkilled outright) that I had problem with.

On April 14 2014 14:19 AxleGreaser wrote:


In the recent game of champions, large swathes of champions all knew the way they played mafia on their site was best... or claimed to. (as some part of some high level tactic where townies pissing everyone else resulted in scum stomping them ....)

Not sure Id characterise a number of the games on TL of late as 'very high level'.

perhaps I am just stupid and dont even understand the game you guys are playing.

On April 14 2014 14:31 AxleGreaser wrote:



I agree I have read number of games in a number of places that I would not even characterise as being the game of 'mafia', that is different to regarding a number of recent games on TL as very high level.
(also I am pretty sure at least some people in the last champions games would rate different games when compared with you, and different games when compared with me, as being high level.(nio surpises their own sites and styles of play would be favoured...))
I have read games on TL that were of high level and good to read and I wished I had played in them, not so much lately.
(and that is both on the level of intellectual content(scum hunting) , would be fun to be in, as separate things )

Its cool, as I said I am not angry, bored, uninterested, not entertained, not seeing a place where fun is being had either by the people playing the game or by me if I was there, those, or things like them I am. If that changes I remember how to in, if it changes the other way, I also know where the active games list thread is.

Metas evolve perhaps in few years TLs meta will evolve to place where the game would be fun...

As for not liking adversarial.... that'll be the day...

Its pissing in my pocket that annoys me. (note thats not what your doing, but its what annoys me when townies do that in game.)

On April 14 2014 13:57 AxleGreaser wrote:
[deletia button itis]

@Gonzaw you appear to addressing a non existent (to my knowledge) question
(actually maybe not, I think i misread you sorry)



I am pretty sure I have not seen anyone complain about the plays of anyone that was scum. Even after LVIII I dont recall people saying 'gee wiz scum should not do that'.

I for instance cant recall a single tactic that a scum player used in any game I played in that troubled me.
(well only one and only a little... and I think I might have been wrong to be troubled, and i suppose I was only troubled in that I thought perhaps no towny should do that... and no towny did. Hardest part was working do townies do that in this game(I was pretty sure I wouldn't as it would not be constructive).)

In games I watched I don't recall a single scum tactic (that wasn't modkilled outright) that I had problem with.

On April 14 2014 17:22 thrawn2112 wrote:
u guys are making it way too complicated. a bunch of people post words. some of the people are mafia. you try to figure out who is who. be a reasonably decent human being if that's what you like doing

On April 14 2014 13:55 DarthPunk wrote:
People should not rage quit the game. People should not cheat. People should always try their best to play to their win condition.

These are objective standards that we can all agree with. Anything further than that becomes subjective.