| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
Table of contents
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
Once, not too long ago, I was hosting a game. A player stopped posting for about 24 hours (I required a post every 48 in this game), so I PMed him asking what's up and reminding him to post. He replied that his sister had a medical emergency and he wasn't really able to play any more. He asked if he could be replaced. Either it was past the D3 replacement deadline, or we were out of replacements. I modkilled him for inactivity-- he was a VT. There was no way he would contribute or vote for the rest of the game. I did not request a ban for him. I knew him from previous games and some other interactions, and it's not like he CHOSE for his sister to be hospitalized, or he signed up for a game knowing she would get injured beforehand. I deliberately gave him preferential treatment based entirely on what I knew about him as a person and the fact that in my personal, expert opinion as a host, the ban would serve no purpose. I've done this kind of thing before, and I'll do it again in the same circumstance. In my opinion, it's the right thing to do. If the rules are changed so that all modkills must result in some kind of punishment, I'll only ask for warnings instead of bans for what I think are reasonable reasons for inactivity and/or quitting. I'll decide what's reasonable in my own games. I think that "preferential treatment" is "host discretion" and I think that being able to call things on a case-by-case basis (as a supplement to using our rule-based system) is righteous and just. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
Ultimately ban REQUESTS are up to the hosts. There may be extenuating circumstances where a player will seek a ban against another player but those matters don't seem to be particularly frequent and can be more appropriately and privately addressed with the hosts as an intermediary, or if it comes to it discussing directly with GMarshal or his appointed representative. | ||
|
AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On January 06 2014 15:34 ObviousOne wrote: The purpose of this thread is to stop derailing the actual ban thread. Continue your discussion here and stop shitting up the actual ban list thread. One axle greaser point. OO++. I have previously/recently not posted anything in the ban list thread no matter what I thought, as when I read it back before pressing post and I asked myself this question. This is the ban list thread. Is this post about a game I hosted or played and the ban of player that is under discussion? On those previous occasions as neither what I was saying nor the post I was replying to appeared to be part of the banlist thread topic I didn't post it. I got weak. On January 06 2014 05:37 Corazon wrote: But this sub-forum isn't moderated by TL rules. It's moderated in-house. So the commandments aren't really valid here. If they were, then we would have to ban a lot more people that we do. I don't know about that. + Show Spoiler + The adversarial combative nature of playing game means some aspects of the rules, are different, but that is due tot he topic of the thread (being a competitive game). The our house rule, TBMK stands and for good reason. Whether or not any people who benefit from it abuse the privilege, and whether they then actually get shorter shrift when it comes to bans... is at best a personal estimate. I know any person that plays like trooper twice then goes splat in the third game, is more likely to be assumed to have had RL issues, in my games. Life >>>everywhere<<< has swings and merry go rounds. When on any well moderated forum someone starts a thread, the thread has a topic, OT stuff is binned and repeated offenders sin binned. He who starts the thread in some sense owns the thread. Game threads are that way too. When I host game, there will be a sense in which I own the thread, and in that thread it will be my house. There are no simple rules for personal conduct especially in a confrontational emotional adversarial game such as mafia. The reason I dont want general TL mods to make decisions in these threads is it requires way too much context to see what is out of line. For the same reason any possible set of explicit simple do this you get that punishment rules is unworkable. Considering why it is an absolute requirement that people such as Geript cant have some set of rules where they know all there is to know about why people were and were not banned. It may simply be none of their damn business. Even knowing that there is or is not some other RL reason that explains it is none of Other peoples damn business. I have in my RL been in positions of authority over other people. Lots of things turn out to be nobody elses business. I am not, but if I was dying of cancer and didn't want people _here_ to know (so I could have one set of normal social interactions), and quit out of a game because of chemo... no one except GM would know. Not event the host, whose game I quit out of might know they'd just get GMs word. 'yep that one is sorted'. That probably wont come up, which is why I chose it, basically stuff happens people I trust fix them, I am 'blissfully' happy. I like being blissfully ignorant of anything I don't need to know. I am sorry but I just don't know what sort of fanciful rules bound world some people want to live in. Read my posting history I love me some rules, I have indicated that I think players ought pay more attention to them than they, seemed at that time, to me, to. Sticking the rule deciders in straight jacket however is an entirely daft rule. Rules are like electric fences player shouldn't go near the edges, GM ought be bored shitless. sigh TLDR? On January 06 2014 15:30 Oatsmaster wrote: ..... Nope. Just dont break the rules and you are fine. If you accidentally do... suck it up princess? Sorted? | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
That, i think, actually is a problem and i don't see how someone having played 3 games or 100 games on this forum or being a fried of someone has anything to do with how hosts should treat equal rule violations. If you break a rule you get a punishment, why do different people get different pushishment for breaking the same rule in a similar manner? | ||
|
AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On January 06 2014 15:51 raynpelikoneet wrote: Blazinghand, the scenario you pointed out in your post is not a problem and everyone understands that. The problem is when player A and player B ragequit a game in a similar manner, and only one of the players gets a ban and the other one does not, even from a same host... That, i think, actually is a problem and i don't see how someone having played 3 games or 100 games on this forum or being a fried of someone has anything to do with how hosts should treat equal rule violations. If you break a rule you get a punishment, why do different people get different pushishment for breaking the same rule in a similar manner? Question? Do you know why someone rage quit? Could there be any other contributing factors you dont know about? (I got few potential candidates) Is it always any of your damn business to know why or even that there was why? | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On January 06 2014 15:51 raynpelikoneet wrote: Blazinghand, the scenario you pointed out in your post is not a problem and everyone understands that. The problem is when player A and player B ragequit a game in a similar manner, and only one of the players gets a ban and the other one does not, even from a same host... That, i think, actually is a problem and i don't see how someone having played 3 games or 100 games on this forum or being a fried of someone has anything to do with how hosts should treat equal rule violations. If you break a rule you get a punishment, why do different people get different pushishment for breaking the same rule in a similar manner? On December 24 2013 03:33 WaveofShadow wrote: Alright so now that PYP: LoL is finally over, it's ban time. Bans for Kurumi, OdinofPergo, geript, nyxnyxnyx, Storrzerg, Kenpachi, Bill Murray, gtrsrs, Onegu, and Roffles. Geript, Odin, and Kurumi are the ragequitters (the rest are inactivity modkills) I believe so I'm wondering if they need harsher bans or not (or whether or not that's up to me). I'm not sure that all of the inactivity modkills should be the same punishment as the ragequitters. Not sure if any warnings beside all this needs to go out---BC and marv are excused from bans due to extenuating circumstances. This game has been going on for a long time so I've messed something up here or people feel the need to appeal, by all means let me know. Is this post by WoS the source of this discussion? I'm trying to get things sorted out here because I feel we'll soon be running in circles (which might end the discussion but leave things unresolved and that's bad juju). Let's get our narrative clearly defined instead of using pronouns and vague examples so we can have a sensible discussion. Edit: I mean basically I have no idea what the root cause of this discussion is because the ban list thread is so shitted up I don't even think it's readable. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 15:51 raynpelikoneet wrote: Blazinghand, the scenario you pointed out in your post is not a problem and everyone understands that. The problem is when player A and player B ragequit a game in a similar manner, and only one of the players gets a ban and the other one does not, even from a same host... That, i think, actually is a problem and i don't see how someone having played 3 games or 100 games on this forum or being a fried of someone has anything to do with how hosts should treat equal rule violations. If you break a rule you get a punishment, why do different people get different pushishment for breaking the same rule in a similar manner? Can you point out where this happened? Geript was complaining about me also quitting TL noir. But the circumstances were still different. I asked for a replacement in pms on day one. And MZ agreed to replace me. Geript rage quit by telling the host to fuck off in order to force a modkill and was generally FAR more disruptive to the game than I was in his rage quit. Not the same situation. In fact most situations are not going to be the same which is why there is host discretion in the first place. | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
EDIT: It's not even the point if it has happened or not (and i know it has happened). The point is that's what the discussion was in the ban thread. I don't agree with it. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 15:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: Okay why the fuck do i even try.. Whatever. EDIT: It's not even the point if it has happened or not (and i know it has happened). The point is that's what the discussion was in the ban thread. I don't agree with it. Could you link me to a game in which it did happen? Cause I haven't seen it. | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On January 06 2014 16:02 DarthPunk wrote: Could you link me to a game in which it did happen? Cause I haven't seen it. No i won't. It does not matter because it does not achieve anything. It'll only make people angry and start another useless discussion that will tear this community apart. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On January 06 2014 16:02 raynpelikoneet wrote: I am saying in my opinion all people should be treated equally under same circumstances. That is what at least some vets are against. I think we've been working on establishing, as a concept, that there really is no such thing as "same circumstances". Show me where two people did the same thing and were treated very differently so we can dissect the situation. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
It's fucking impossible to even discuss these things without having to make someone angry and having to make a 1000 word case because you are trying to prove a simple point. Here is what are similar circumstances: "I did not like my role", "I did not like what player X said about me", "I got angry because of whatever", "I can't talk myself out of the lynch", "I don't like how people are playing the game", "my allies are fucking stupid". Those are similar situations. You choose to quit the game because you can't deal with something in the game. The way you do it doesn't make a difference. Instead of trying to handle the situation in game you chose to chicken out and quit. Maybe you asked for a replacement, maybe you did just plain out ragequit, who the fuck cares - the bottom line is you quit. Don't break the rules, don't whine about bans if you break the rules. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
By building up that social capital they should get more leeway than someone who is new and has not been a positive part of the community for years already. Is it fair in the very narrowest sense. No. Is it fair in a broader sense whilst considering the context of that person and the social capital they have built by being a part of the community for a long time. Fucking yes it is. Geript rage quit 2 games in row and is a newer player and got a 3 game ban. DrH did the same and has the social capital of being a vet here for many years and also hosting many games, starting the podcast initiative etc. And he did not get a 3 game for rage quitting games. I view that as contextually fair. Things like this are not black and white, nor should they be. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 16:14 raynpelikoneet wrote: Okay i'll stop. What-the-fuck-ever.. It's fucking impossible to even discuss these things without having to make someone angry and having to make a 1000 word case because you are trying to prove a simple point. Here is what are similar circumstances: "I did not like my role", "I did not like what player X said about me", "I got angry because of whatever", "I can't talk myself out of the lynch", "I don't like how people are playing the game", "my allies are fucking stupid". Those are similar situations. You choose to quit the game because you can't deal with something in the game. The way you do it doesn't make a difference. Instead of trying to handle the situation in game you chose to chicken out and quit. Maybe you asked for a replacement, maybe you did just plain out ragequit, who the fuck cares - the bottom line is you quit. Don't break the rules, don't whine about bans if you break the rules. OK i just flat out disagree with those being similar things. But that is ok. I still love you. | ||
|
Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On January 06 2014 16:19 Oatsmaster wrote: Also DrH just left TL mafia for like 4-5 months. Is it objectively fair to make him serve his 3 game ban when he got back? Sure. Does it make sense? Nope. I was under the impression (though I could be wrong) that the ban list reset happened between DrH's bans and his return, which was the reason he wasn't banned. | ||
|
LSB
United States5171 Posts
Whats this about vets getting preferential treatment? Does it actually exist? I don't notice it. And why is it a bad thing that vets get preferential treatment even if it does exisit? Shouldnt people who proved they can play multiple mafia games without flaming/inactivity deserve more leeway than someone who is known for ragequitting games? | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
LSB
United States5171 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On January 06 2014 16:16 DarthPunk wrote: OK i just flat out disagree with those being similar things. But that is ok. I still love you. Well that's your opinion, and everyone has different opinions. That's the reason why it needs to be clear what you are allowed to do and what is against the rules. Lemme give you a couple of scenarios: In GoT game my mafia team has succesfully framed Mocsta and we are pushing a lynch on him. That is my game plan. My game plan does not include Mocsta quitting the game in the middle of the day phase we are supposed to lynch him because that costs my team a night of actions, which means 1.5 KP + 0.5 house KP (which will be rethought in addition to the lynch). I have to find a new town lynch, if i do not my game might fall apart if town gets their shit together, just because someone decided to quit the game. Let's say Mocsta asked an immediate replacement. Does that make things more fair/less fair for me. Impossible to say, because i was playing against Mocsta and not against whoever replaced him. His replacement might be able to convince the town they were framed, hell they might even convince the town i am scum if they are good enough interacting with other people. In Noir you asked to be replaced. I was mafia. Did i like it? Fuck no, because i was playing against DarthPunk and not against strongandbig. Did it matter? Not really, in the end. Could it have mattered? Yes, a lot. The town was in a fucking chaos because of ego battles and hotheads replacing out helped marv & yamato to get towns shit together and nearly won the game (most likely had without D2 lynch shenanigans). Did it hurt my team you replaced out? Yes it did. Did it hurt my team VE ragequitted? Yes it did, because he was a possible mislynch as we had correctly framed him. Did it hurt my team geript ragequit? Yes because he was promoting bad town atmosphere and was apossible mislynch/policy lynch/policy vigi shot. Was any of those any better/worse than others for my team, no. In Golden Sun you replaced out because you did not like being survivor. Did i like it? I didn't really give a shit because it didn't matter to me at all. But go ask WaveofShadow, did he like it? He wouldn't prolly give a shit about Noir & GoT but would like you to have a ban because he had to play survivor because someone didn't like their role. In LXI marv got modkilled for breaking the rules but his hydra partner geript was not removed from the game. Mafia did not think that affected the game at all. Town did, because by dick move analysis people considered geript confirmed town and that was literally the only reason town lost that game. The bottom line is, you can't tell which is worse than others because every situation affects differently to different people. And yes, in each scenario the rules were broken, someone quit a game because they could not handle an in game situation / follow basidc rules given by their host, whatever that was. That's why they should be equally punished. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On January 06 2014 16:56 DarthPunk wrote: Getting replaced out before the game starts should never be ban worthy and Wave did not have to replace in when he knew he would be survivor. It does not matter at all what you think but i happen to know WoS wasn't happy at all because of it. I actually requested to be a Serial Killer in Titanic II for reasons, if you can't handle playing some alignment you should request town/mafia then. When you sign up to a game you imo choose to play your role/alignment to their win condition, whatever that is. Replacing out because you didn't like what you got is not doing that. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 17:00 raynpelikoneet wrote: It does not matter at all what you think but i happen to know WoS wasn't happy at all because of it. I actually requested to be a Serial Killer in Titanic II for reasons, if you can't handle playing some alignment you should request town/mafia then. When you sign up to a game you imo choose to play your role/alignment to their win condition, whatever that is. Replacing out because you didn't like what you got is not doing that. He didn't have to replace in. And if there was no replacement I would have played the game. Getting replaced out before the game even starts literally has zero effect on the game If Wave wasn't happy about it he should not have replaced in. | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On January 06 2014 17:04 DarthPunk wrote: He didn't have to replace in. And if there was no replacement I would have played the game. Getting replaced out before the game even starts literally has zero effect on the game If Wave wasn't happy about it he should not have replaced in. How can you say that? Someone might have joined that game just because they wanted to play with you. You can't possibly know how it affects people because everyone reacts differently. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 17:10 raynpelikoneet wrote: How can you say that? Someone might have joined that game just because they wanted to play with you. You can't possibly know how it affects people because everyone reacts differently. Yeah it was a mistake to ask for a replacement cause I got the worst role in the game. But it was also not ban worthy. I got a warning which is reasonable. But people should not get more than that for replacing before a game even starts. Any more than that is excessive. Replacing before a game even starts does FAR less damage to a game than a rage quit on day 3 does. Which is the crux of your argument. You think they are similar and they are not at all similar in terms of severity or impact on the game and should get punished proportionally to the impact on the game. Replacing before game start has no impact so a warning is fine. Telling the host to fuck off so that they will modkill you on day 3 is far more destructive to a game and should be a 1 game ban. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On January 06 2014 16:52 raynpelikoneet wrote: Well that's your opinion, and everyone has different opinions. That's the reason why it needs to be clear what you are allowed to do and what is against the rules. Lemme give you a couple of scenarios: In GoT game my mafia team has succesfully framed Mocsta and we are pushing a lynch on him. That is my game plan. My game plan does not include Mocsta quitting the game in the middle of the day phase we are supposed to lynch him because that costs my team a night of actions, which means 1.5 KP + 0.5 house KP (which will be rethought in addition to the lynch). I have to find a new town lynch, if i do not my game might fall apart if town gets their shit together, just because someone decided to quit the game. Let's say Mocsta asked an immediate replacement. Does that make things more fair/less fair for me. Impossible to say, because i was playing against Mocsta and not against whoever replaced him. His replacement might be able to convince the town they were framed, hell they might even convince the town i am scum if they are good enough interacting with other people. In Noir you asked to be replaced. I was mafia. Did i like it? Fuck no, because i was playing against DarthPunk and not against strongandbig. Did it matter? Not really, in the end. Could it have mattered? Yes, a lot. The town was in a fucking chaos because of ego battles and hotheads replacing out helped marv & yamato to get towns shit together and nearly won the game (most likely had without D2 lynch shenanigans). Did it hurt my team you replaced out? Yes it did. Did it hurt my team VE ragequitted? Yes it did, because he was a possible mislynch as we had correctly framed him. Did it hurt my team geript ragequit? Yes because he was promoting bad town atmosphere and was apossible mislynch/policy lynch/policy vigi shot. Was any of those any better/worse than others for my team, no. In Golden Sun you replaced out because you did not like being survivor. Did i like it? I didn't really give a shit because it didn't matter to me at all. But go ask WaveofShadow, did he like it? He wouldn't prolly give a shit about Noir & GoT but would like you to have a ban because he had to play survivor because someone didn't like their role. In LXI marv got modkilled for breaking the rules but his hydra partner geript was not removed from the game. Mafia did not think that affected the game at all. Town did, because by dick move analysis people considered geript confirmed town and that was literally the only reason town lost that game. The bottom line is, you can't tell which is worse than others because every situation affects differently to different people. And yes, in each scenario the rules were broken, someone quit a game because they could not handle an in game situation / follow basidc rules given by their host, whatever that was. That's why they should be equally punished. GoT: DrParnassus Afghanistan. August 28 2013 03:20. Posts 308 Gift TL+ PM Profile Quote # filter I pm'd the G-Man about Mocsta but I haven't heard back. I'm going to go ahead and request a 1 game ban for Mocsta as I'm satisfied that he won't commit the same offense again. Nothing else for GoT. The Ace modkill sucked but more and more people were blatantly disregarding the silent night and it was starting to get out of hand. By the way, thanks again to everyone who followed the rules. I'm not talking about simple mistakes such as accidentally posting, but the instances where people were knowingly breaking the rules. Mocsta ban was officially requested. Before the wipe. What's the malfunction? That it was mid-day? That's a perk of hosting, you host however you want to host. There's no rule, as far as I know, of when you can or can't modkill and flip a player. Maybe that's something you want to pursue at some point, some kind of standardization, since that seems to be the root of your complaint as far as that game is concerned. Noir read here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20481794 golden sun On September 26 2013 07:11 ShiaoPi wrote: Bans and Warnings for Golden Sun Mafia: Requesting a Warning for DarthPunk. He was replaced out after seeing his role PM as he thought that it was impossible for him to win as a 3rd Party survivor happened before the game start and had no impact on the game, resulted in a warn | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
GoT resulted in an official action against Mocsta, for getting himself modkilled. Noir: you can see the explanation there, there is more to the story than he just got himself Golden Sun: Warn for replacing before the game started, host discretion, there was still action taken. All different situations, all treated somewhat differently. You are arguing that these all deserve to be treated the same way? That's like three different hosts, man. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
| ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
Being a mayor doesn't mean u can smoke da crack n booze it up with the ladies and receive no dmg to dat town cred. 80/20 rule in full effekt..respekt and represent. When the minority outvoice the majority and the sheep's follow thy shepherd. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 17:27 Mocsta wrote: Rules r da rules. Being a mayor doesn't mean u can smoke da crack n booze it up with the ladies and receive no dmg to dat town cred. 80/20 rule in full effekt..respekt and represent. When the minority outvoice the majority and the sheep's follow thy shepherd. How did you get into mocsta's account slam? | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
"Everyone starts with an A. All you gotta do is keep it." | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
Maybe people would step out of their tunnelvision if for example strongandbig had solved the Noir on N1. | ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
I like what u did with this thread but your approach to rayn is insulting. Specific cases don't matter here as we aren't trying to get former infractions to receive due justice. What you are doing and accomplishing is deterring any effort to mount a counter argument. We are speaking in general terms and clearly the people discussing this admit that the disparity exists. Examples are not required. Lets not dredge up the past, and instead look toward the future. | ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On January 06 2014 17:28 DarthPunk wrote: How did you get into mocsta's account slam? I think some1 wants to be slammed and anal-yzed deeply., simultaneously. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
Sorry if I sound or come off as disparaging or condescending or something, I am honestly not trying to and please don't take my posts that way. A little bit of silly, sometimes. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On January 06 2014 17:30 raynpelikoneet wrote: Well at least i tried. Maybe people would step out of their tunnelvision if for example strongandbig had solved the Noir on N1. I mean I guess I sort of understand this. You play against the players. When a replacement happens, it disrupts your plan because you're not playing against the SLOT. Am I getting warmer? | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
Basically there might be mitigating factors that the host is aware of that should go into the final decision. Should someone be banned because they got ill and cannot play so they got modkilled? no. Should someone be banned because they got mad and Pm'd their role to every player in the game and then got modkilled? Yes. They are both the same fundamental thing. (getting modkilled) but we are humans and can distinguish that the context of the final result (modkill) is different. I don't see geript yelling that promethelax should be banned for an inactivity modkill in Titanic II. So clearly he just has a personal issue with me because I said he should get 3 games for grievously rage quitting back to back games. Does anyone disagree with geript getting 3 games for back to back ragequits? Does anyone disagree with Promethelax not getting banned for getting modkilled in Titanic II? Cause basically people are suggesting these things should be weighted equally and that makes absolutely zero fucking sense to me to be honest. | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
| ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On January 06 2014 17:50 raynpelikoneet wrote: We can continue this discussion when people who feel like they are bad as scum and prefer town start replacing out of games because they rolled mafia, not once, but often. As it's not punished. Are you moving the target or are you providing another example? Who does this, how often, can you prove it was because they rolled scum and not something they discussed with the hosts, etc etc? | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On January 06 2014 17:53 ObviousOne wrote: And if it's the case that they are not punished, is it an oversight because it's not documented well or do you think there is a conspiracy of some sort? I don't think there's a conspiracy. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 17:50 raynpelikoneet wrote: We can continue this discussion when people who feel like they are bad as scum and prefer town start replacing out of games because they rolled mafia, not once, but often. As it's not punished. It's happened before. Talismania did it. Was never a fucking disaster to be honest. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 17:50 raynpelikoneet wrote: We can continue this discussion when people who feel like they are bad as scum and prefer town start replacing out of games because they rolled mafia, not once, but often. As it's not punished. I was punished. I got a warning. If I did it again I imagine I would receive a 3 game ban as I have a warning already. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
Edit: I have read lots of pages of the ban list so I was aware of this in the back of my mind and never thought twice about it. Is this expounded upon within the OP of Ban list 1.0? | ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
U r doing a great job if misinterpretting the argument. To the best of my limited literacy skills, I have not noticed any one arguing that wgenuine real life issues resulting in an inactivity modkill should be banned... Unless we are talking about repeat offenders. E.g stutters. We are talking about a hypothetical situation where newbie x and vet y both rage quit. Both should be banned. That is the justice wagon being thrown about. | ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
| ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 18:06 Mocsta wrote: Dp U r doing a great job if misinterpretting the argument. To the best of my limited literacy skills, I have not noticed any one arguing that wgenuine real life issues resulting in an inactivity modkill should be banned... Unless we are talking about repeat offenders. E.g stutters. We are talking about a hypothetical situation where newbie x and vet y both rage quit. Both should be banned. That is the justice wagon being thrown about. Then why are we even arguing about that, because that is already exactly what happens? | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On January 06 2014 18:11 DarthPunk wrote: Then why are we even arguing about that, because that is already exactly what happens? No that's not what happens. Like i literally just posted examples of 4 games where people intentionally broke the rules. Half of the people were banned and the other half was not. I am not trying to get anyone banned here or blame anyone. I am just pointing out irrational behavior regarding bans. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 18:12 ObviousOne wrote: Then your quest shall be to seek amendment the Model OP to add a rule for hosts to enforce regarding moderating rage quits at all stages of the game. Or to only support hosts that do so. Otherwise you get the hosts' discretion. And 99% of the time the hosts uses this discretion based on things shared between the host and the player have shared in Pm's. Generally real life stuff getting in the way. If we are asking that hosts justify their decisions to the community and air the content of peoples private discussions with them in the pursuit of 'justice' or 'fairness' then I don't agree with that at all. And I also believe that a persons track record within the community is a perfectly valid thing to consider a mitigating factor. Hells the LEGAL SYSTEM considers shit like this when deciding sentences. So I don;t understand the problem with us also doing so. Also this: On September 13 2004 22:42 mensrea wrote: THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it. Remember: we ban little kids all the time because they sign on thinking they can say and do whatever they want to whomever they want right from the get-go - just like they're used to doing at other sites. That attitude won't work here. That's a promise. As far as new users are concerned (i.e. anyone with less than 1000 or so quality posts to their name), this site is Holy Ground. The veterans are the users who've consistently shown respect to the site and to others and that's why they're still here. Show them some respect. In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts may be able to get away with a few minor transgressions in etiquette with just a warning. If you're at 50 posts and you try the same kind of stunt, then we may just ban you. Harsh? Yes. Unfair? Most definitely. But that's the way life is. Learn to live with it. This also means you should think twice before calling that guy with 5000+ posts a jackass. If the guy's been with us that long, chances are YOU'RE the one being an idiot. Some battles are just not worth fighting - just move on. | ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On January 06 2014 18:11 DarthPunk wrote: Then why are we even arguing about that, because that is already exactly what happens? If I was on a comp I would post your tirade prior. You know. The one where you openly state that vets who obrain social cred should be given leniency towards punishable infractions. Your point above makes me chortle | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 18:12 raynpelikoneet wrote: No that's not what happens. Like i literally just posted examples of 4 games where people intentionally broke the rules. Half of the people were banned and the other half was not. I am not trying to get anyone banned here or blame anyone. I am just pointing out irrational behavior regarding bans. Hosts discretion. Some things were worse or had a different context. That is the exact reason the hosts have discretion in the first place, and that has been the way it has operated for years. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On January 06 2014 18:23 DarthPunk wrote: Hosts discretion. Some things were worse or had a different context. That is the exact reason the hosts have discretion in the first place, and that has been the way it has operated for years. They seem to be arguing against hosts using discretion and instead being very rule-abiding rule-for-everything type of thing. If you don't have a rule for everything, you need hosts' discretion. If you don't want hosts' discretion, you need a rule for everything. I'm not sure that many people would host, at least not as many as now, if every game was run like a prison camp with a rule and a role for everything. | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On January 06 2014 18:23 DarthPunk wrote: Hosts discretion. Some things were worse or had a different context. That is the exact reason the hosts have discretion in the first place, and that has been the way it has operated for years. And this is why host discretion is bullshit. This is all about how people in that game feel about things. You can't possibly say i should not feel offended or should feel less offended for someone breaking rule X instead of rule Y. Do you think geript is legitmately bullshitting and does not feel robbed because someone broke rules like he did and he got a different punishment than the other person? Like do you really think he just has some personal issues against someone which are so strong he feels like he needs to bring the issue up to everyone and argue against everyone about it? Because i don't, and i completely understand him regarding the ban thingy. This is why it should go like this: Mods set the rules for the games -> you sign up you agree to the rules -> if you break the rules you get a ban -> if you repeatedly break the rules in games you get a more severe ban (like 2nd time, 3-game ban, 3rd time 5-game ban, etc etc). It should not matter if you are a newbie or a vet, because regardless of your status you should know the rules and by signing up to a game you agree to follow the rules, whatever they are. It really is that simple. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
Geript rage quitting and getting mod-killed for it was worse worse than me replacing out before the game started. Both of the above are true. They are not the same thing and that is why they were treated differently. If people actually believe those are the same thing then I don't really know what to say. | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
Like I guess what I'm saying is, rayn your flow chart makes sense but it's really like this if we implement you system: Host sets rules -> signupers agree to rules -> if players break the rules, the mod decides what to do with them in game, to warn you or to modkill you or to ignore you -> players who got modkilled get punishments in a standardized fashion. Like let's say for example, ParthDunk asks for a replace out during day 1 and I think his reason is something bullshitty and he just got mad that he rolled town. I could force-replace him and treat it as a modkill, submitting it to the ban list. But if my bro DarthPunk asks for a replace out during day 1 and I think his reason is reasonable, I could just say it's "extenuating circumstances" based entirely on my own judgement. This is true whether or not we make mandatory punishments / ban requests. Even worse, let's say Goaculation is being super inactive and I modkill him for posting once every 48 hours and barely keeping up with the game. If I do that, he gets automatically sent to the ban list. Now let's say my friend TechelonEee is being super inactive so I just post a warning in the game for him so he only gets a warning, or I just ignore his inactivity. Or I run a game with softer inactivity rules specifically worded to give me discretion on it, so the rule is like "try to post every 48 hours, there are no hard and fast rules, but if you post less than once ever 48 hours i may modkill you" or something I guess what I'm getting at is if you standardize punishment more heavily, that's fine, but we should try to standardize what constitutes inactivity. I regularly run games with a 24-hour posting requirement rather than 48, and I usually slightly scale back the bans/warnings I ask for inactivity when the guy is a guy who I know doesn't usually get bans for inactivity. blah blah blah you get the idea | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
EDIT: Yeah i agree with your post BH, that makes sense. I am basically trying to say playing against your wincon (in this instance ragequitting OR asking for a replacement because you could not handle something that happened in game) is playing against your wincon. You intentionally choose to quit instead of trying to play, if you get modkilled/replaced is irrelevant. If you did call hosts whatever names it's between you and the host, it does not make you a double-quitter or anything. The host can put you on a personal ignore list or something, that does not make the "silent quitter" any less worse for the current game, regadless of the outcome and the time/phase they quitted. | ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
It may come as a shock but whilst the axis of the earth may be near ??Australia?? The world in fact does not revolve around you. Stop talking about you being a lesser of a kmien evil. Your action alone is evil. That is irrefutAble. That said, I'm not asking for your ban. That's the past. If you do it again with ban list 2.0 I WOULD expect a ban. Anything less is justice not being served and the very disparity I and others are raising and despising. | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
And in the same sense, if GreyMist or someone does something "borderline" where i could either ask for a warning or for a ban, I'll ask for the warning. If it's some newb who doesn't know where the line is, who hasn't proven his value to the community? I won't bend over back to make things nice for him. Ultimately, there SHOULD be something you get, a benefit of the doubt, for being a great guy who's always there and always does well. I think a system that treats a new player who does something borderline the same as a vet who plays 50 games perfectly then does something borderline is not a good system. I think at that point, we're making a system to serve a system, rather than a system to serve a community. Ultimately, I'd be happy without a banlist. I'd be happy never asking for a ban for any of my players, and just saying to them after the game, "hey man, you raged really hard that game and I had to modkill you. You should take some time off." If this were a community with like 12 players total, we could do that. If this were a community with like 200 players, we'd have to have extremely codified rules since there's no informal way to do things. This is neither of that. This is a smallish community where we all know each other, but we're not all reading and watching every game, so we have a semi-codified ban list system. I would like to see us not need a ban list at all, but we're big enough we need a formal one. And that's fine. But the solution to discrepancies isn't to make the ban list more formal. It's to talk. If someone feels like they're being singled out for poor treatment, the solution isn't to make a cold system that's not conducive to building this small community, the solution is for someone to step up and run the EU movie night or something. | ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
We can all raise token situations that prove the suggested path forward doesn't work What is you take on repeat in real life inactivity modkilled players? Because frankly, that is my biggest pet peeve. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
A warning shortly followed by a ban is just a ban unless it's really bad offense. -- as was the case with DP A ban shortly followed by another ban is a 3-game. -- as was the case with geript If this doesn't explain it then I am just not sure what else can be said. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 18:50 Mocsta wrote: Stop talking about you being a lesser of a kmien evil. Your action alone is evil. That is irrefutAble. They are literally talking about me so I don't know how you can say that I think the earth revolves around me. As rayn is LITERALLY discussing me and using my games as examples. Like what the fuck is actually happening in this thread. 2 people I like and respect have like such a different mindset to me that I can't empathise with anything they are saying at all. On January 06 2014 18:50 Mocsta wrote: Stop talking about you being a lesser of a kmien evil. Your action alone is evil. That is irrefutAble. What the fuck does this mean? lol. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On January 06 2014 18:54 Mocsta wrote: Bh We can all raise token situations that prove the suggested path forward doesn't work What is you take on repeat in real life inactivity modkilled players? Because frankly, that is my biggest pet peeve. The point about these "token situations" is that the continuum of situations is just a bunch of "token situations" all lumped together. different things happen to different people. As much as possible I prefer a case by case basis because we are small enough and know each other well enough that we should be able to do that. Things like standard inactivity modkills make sense to me though, especially for newbie games since we'll get a lot of people signing up then forgetting about it. re: real life inactivity modkills, it really depends. If a guy's mom dies one game, then his dad dies the next game, then his sister the next game, I think we probably shouldn't make his life any tougher. I guess the point I'm trying to get at here is some kind of standardized solution will obviously have like edge cases where it makes no sense ie our solution to the dog having too much food is to shoot the cat and sell the hamster to the neighbor or some weird shit because we have rules. rules constrict when we can just do a case by case basis when we need to. We have SOME structure, a ban system, standard punishments, but the host discretion is imo non-trivially important | ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
Regarding u personally. Don't be the guy in the Benz saying he was robbed of a good start to life. Be the bigger man and ignore it. U didn't receive a ban. There is a clean slate.u had a self imposed hiatus. It is what it is. There is no need to further feed that discussion. I'm talking in general as was rayn until pressured to be specific. | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
| ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 18:57 ObviousOne wrote: Like I am pretty sure I am 100% correct and that is because I have over time, many moons ago, read the entire ban list thread from top to bottom. Same lol. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On January 06 2014 19:01 Blazinghand wrote: is mocsta writing in verse? That's his iPad-typing. | ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
Of course if someone dies whether proven true or not, leniency is given. This is a casual game after all, it the mafia Olympics. I'm talking about people who repeatedly sign up, don't post get mod killed for forgetting to vote cos they are just "busy" or become close to modkill territory continusously and in short are frustrating to play with or against. There are a plethora of players that need not be named that can be categorised like this. Is your solution to WotC these players, or are you turning a blind eye completely? | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 18:59 Mocsta wrote: Kmien is known lol. Regarding u personally. Don't be the guy in the Benz saying he was robbed of a good start to life. Be the bigger man and ignore it. U didn't receive a ban. There is a clean slate.u had a self imposed hiatus. It is what it is. There is no need to further feed that discussion. I'm talking in general as was rayn until pressured to be specific. Yeah and I am literally using those same games he used as counter examples. So tell me mocsta, why do you think I think the earth revolves around me? | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
| ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On January 06 2014 19:03 Mocsta wrote: More token situations. Of course if someone dies whether proven true or not, leniency is given. This is a casual game after all, it the mafia Olympics. I'm talking about people who repeatedly sign up, don't post get mod killed for forgetting to vote cos they are just "busy" or become close to modkill territory continusously and in short are frustrating to play with or against. There are a plethora of players that need not be named that can be categorised like this. Is your solution to WotC these players, or are you turning a blind eye completely? You're saying they sign up, inactivity out and get banned, sit out a game, and repeat? Who the fuck are these people? | ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
 | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On January 06 2014 19:04 ObviousOne wrote: You're saying they sign up, inactivity out and get banned, sit out a game, and repeat? Who the fuck are these people? dude dude OO DP I think we're about to find out that the three of us are from an alternate universe or maybe moc and rayne are or something and our universe are colliding, this is the first evidence of the collision, and we hav eto work together with Green Lantern to stop it | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On January 06 2014 19:06 Blazinghand wrote: dude dude OO DP I think we're about to find out that the three of us are from an alternate universe or maybe moc and rayne are or something and our universe are colliding, this is the first evidence of the collision, and we hav eto work together with Green Lantern to stop it Dibs on the sexy green outfit. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 19:04 ObviousOne wrote: You're saying they sign up, inactivity out and get banned, sit out a game, and repeat? Who the fuck are these people? Literally that is stutters he is talking about and he is probably the only one who has gotten away with it. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 19:06 Blazinghand wrote: dude dude OO DP I think we're about to find out that the three of us are from an alternate universe or maybe moc and rayne are or something and our universe are colliding, this is the first evidence of the collision, and we hav eto work together with Green Lantern to stop it This would actually make more sense to me than their actual arguments do. | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On January 06 2014 19:07 DarthPunk wrote: This would actually make more sense to me than their actual arguments do. there's another possibility which is just that you me and OO have never recieved bad treatment from a host, so obviously we dont' remember it hapening to us, but it's happened to other people in games we weren't in, and weren't paying attention to; so we're working off of different data sets. the reason isn't "alterate universes" but the reason for different data sets is "we weren't playing game X or Y" | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
| ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On January 06 2014 19:08 Blazinghand wrote: there's another possibility which is just that you me and OO have never recieved bad treatment from a host, so obviously we dont' remember it hapening to us, but it's happened to other people in games we weren't in, and weren't paying attention to; so we're working off of different data sets. the reason isn't "alterate universes" but the reason for different data sets is "we weren't playing game X or Y" All the hosts here are beautiful people. Promethelax even went easy on me when I posted in a random QT that Mr. CC linked in a game by giving me an informal warning. Fuck, a really long time ago when I started playing the game, ghost_403 even cheered me up when I was feeling depressed during a newbie game which is far and beyond past anything he needed to do as a host. I have never had a bad experience with a host or felt that a host was unnecessarily harsh nor too lenient in any case requiring remediation. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 19:08 Blazinghand wrote: there's another possibility which is just that you me and OO have never recieved bad treatment from a host, so obviously we dont' remember it hapening to us, but it's happened to other people in games we weren't in, and weren't paying attention to; so we're working off of different data sets. the reason isn't "alterate universes" but the reason for different data sets is "we weren't playing game X or Y" That is true. But in general I don't think anyone receives bad treatment from hosts and in particular GMarsh is very fair. Geript feels that he did but I don't think anyone can argue that his behaviour did not warrant his punishment. | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On January 06 2014 19:13 ObviousOne wrote: I EVEN FORGIVE YOU NOT KILLING GERIPT WITH MARV, BH dude the worst part about that game is that the game lasted 9 game days, nearly a MONTH, before it ended with geript being the only scum left alive, after i modkilled marv what a game bh best host 2012 | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
| ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On January 06 2014 19:08 Blazinghand wrote: I agree with this.there's another possibility which is just that you me and OO have never recieved bad treatment from a host, so obviously we dont' remember it hapening to us, but it's happened to other people in games we weren't in, and weren't paying attention to; so we're working off of different data sets. the reason isn't "alterate universes" but the reason for different data sets is "we weren't playing game X or Y" I think this is most likely the case. I dont fault people for low emotional quotient. Some people are naturally better able to emphasise.symphaise situations unknown to them than others. Fact of life. You can argue that we are not giving you the specifics required to emphasise properly -- but unfortunately I am not interested in doing that. Mainly because my point isn't to tarnish specific peoples names. That can make my argument look stupid; and thats something Im willing to wear/cop on the chin. Peace out. dinner time. Have fun. P.S. BH i completely get your argument regarding 2 peepz @ a party. And I would be a hypocrite if I said I disagreed. It really all comes down to what type of culture you want to perpetuate/culminate. Not a simple answer for sure. | ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On January 06 2014 19:11 Blazinghand wrote: close enough only counts in government work and hand grenades + nukes + rpgs + lynching BH  | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
I'm like a robot that's gotten so smart it can emulate a human's personality perfectly and when you talk to it it SEEMS conscious when really it's not, it's just so damn good at something else that it can basically do all the things a conscious person does, and you can't tell the difference. | ||
|
Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
| ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
Poll: Are there problems with the current system? The system is fine as it is. (15) The system is broken and I propose X be done about it in the comments proceeding this poll. (1) Are you even serious with this poll right now? (7) 23 total votes Your vote: Are there problems with the current system? (Vote): The system is fine as it is. | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
| ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
here's my first thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202370 | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On January 06 2014 19:44 Blazinghand wrote: wow 2.7k posts and you were both a thread AND a poll virgin! i can't believe you were saving your thread and poll virginity for discussing the ban list, OO :3 here's my first thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202370 Be honest, you didn't have any guy named "Maru" do that MSPaint. It's clearly a BH special. | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On January 06 2014 19:48 ObviousOne wrote: Be honest, you didn't have any guy named "Maru" do that MSPaint. It's clearly a BH special. Dude I'm gonna be 100% real, that was actually made by my friend Maru. I would not be able to draw that (well the stick figure part I could draw at least). he posts later in the thread when the argument gets heated | ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
| ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
1) no-one can really come up with many, if any, examples where people are treated radically differently, and even if it does occur sometimes, that's not actually a big issue 2) replacing out before a game starts isn't the same as being modkilled on day 3, no matter how much rayn says it is and that we "don't get his point". Mafia people do like to talk after all... :> | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On February 25 2012 11:37 Blazinghand wrote: I didn't say I didn't make a case, I said I didn't say I made a case. You said I said I made a case and I said I called him out. so all things are possible probably one of my favorite sentences i've ever written is "I didn't say I didn't make a case, I said I didn't say I made a case." | ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
| ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
or even better I make like 3 posts during day 1, don't post at all during night 1, and get shot by scum n1 because i'm so terrifying and then I post some totally reasonable cases in another game and catch like a million scum and am a claimed blue and everyone's like "clearly this is scum bh" and i get lynched | ||
|
geript
10024 Posts
As for not yelling that Prome didn't get banned for his inactivity, I literally have never read Titanic II. So yah, Prome not getting a ban is pretty egregious. The problem that some people are portraying my arguments not how I'm clearly intending them. Flat out, some discretion in deciding who to ban, who to warn, who to upgrade punishments for and who to give a free pass to is required. The problem is that the current system gives far too much leeway to mods allowing for favoritism/preferential treatment/whatever. The system change I proposed is a very simple one and easy to put into place. Hosts have a standardized submission format to put into the ban list. They submit each and every potentially punishable offense. So if Prome gets modkilled for inactivity that goes onto the banlist. On that same form, the host is given room to explain what happened and the punishment they're seeking. They have the ability to say: "I'm not requesting action against Prome for extenuating circumstances." The difference between what happens now is that it helps 'catch' situations (similar to DP's or others) where there needs to be more objective eyes look at and decide the problem at hand. It helps prevent situations where, like how DP posted to "ban-increase" on me, people are more likely to "take shit personal" because the form includes current ban/warning status. It also helps prevent situations where a player who currently has a warning gets banned but there is no increase in banned game count. The goal is to try and treat everyone fairly; vets getting preferential treatment just because they're vets is wrong. That can only go on to promote an antagonistic attitude of "vets vs non-vets;" it will only proceed to alienate players. When you alienate players it can only serve to bring a bad name to TL at other places OR serve to make people to take counter actions to drive (specific) players away. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 21:15 geript wrote: First off, replacing out is just as bad as getting modkilled. No one argues that if you are inactive D1 and get replaced that you should't get an inactivity ban. This is just flat out not the case and is not considered as such by a majority of hosts and players. Requesting a replacement is not as bad as forcing a replacement or getting mod-killed. In the first you are making a request of the host which he/she may decline. In the second you have either done nothing at all with no pm communication forcing the mods hand or have been such a detriment that you have been removed from the game by the host. Not to mention a replacement does not remove a player from the game and flip them like a mod kill does. | ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
If there are extenuating circumstances, it doesn't take making a stupid form for everyone to see to actually change this, it will remain the case, stupid form or no-stupid form. It's been discussed before (during a discussion on a ban on me for one, and probably other occasions) but the banlist isn't just some punitive, handing out punishments affair. Is the player in question likely to do whatever bad thing they did again? Prome has a sterling playing record, is he going to afk from games in the future just because he had rl issues at this one time? Probably not. If he knew he had issues and he still signed up, he probably learnt from that too. geript ragequit-modkilled from one game, got a one-game ban, and then did precisely the same thing again in the next game he played. Is he likely to do it again? Frankly, yes, so 3 games is pretty normal... | ||
|
geript
10024 Posts
On January 06 2014 21:45 marvellosity wrote: geript ragequit-modkilled from one game, got a one-game ban, and then did precisely the same thing again in the next game he played. Is he likely to do it again? Frankly, yes, so 3 games is pretty normal... So then you'd have supported a pretty heavy ban on DP for replacing out without cause in successive games correct? | ||
|
Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
Im kinda miffed about that. | ||
|
Grackaroni
United States9846 Posts
On January 06 2014 21:50 Oatsmaster wrote: I dunno marv, you gave me a 1 game ban for not voting twice. Im kinda miffed about that. I think that is a standard ban. Missing 2 votes is generally a modkill. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 21:50 geript wrote: So then you'd have supported a pretty heavy ban on DP for replacing out without cause in successive games correct? Just fucking get over it dude. To be honest me not getting a ban for a game does not mean that you did not deserve a 3 game ban when you clearly did. and it also does not mean you can shit up every thread you can find in some deluded quest for vengeance. GM made a ruling on this. I am not getting a ban retroactively. So just drop it and participate in the community like a normal rational human please. | ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Poll: Is this discussion over? Not until geript says so damnit (7) No, it makes me hard (5) How are we still going? (4) Yes... *yawn* (3) Let's carry on to while away some time (1) 20 total votes Your vote: Is this discussion over? (Vote): Yes... *yawn* | ||
|
Grackaroni
United States9846 Posts
| ||
|
geript
10024 Posts
On January 06 2014 21:56 DarthPunk wrote: Just fucking get over it dude. To be honest me not getting a ban for a game does not mean that you did not deserve a 3 game ban when you clearly did. and it also does not mean you can shit up every thread you can find in some deluded quest for vengeance. GM made a ruling on this. I am not getting a ban retroactively. So just drop it and participate in the community like a normal rational human please. DP you're not getting my point. From an objective rules based stance, yes I deserve a 3 game ban. The problem is that there should be reasonable expectation of fair treatment. For example, StorrZerg should have a 2 game ban currently (instead of a 1 game ban), but he doesn't have that. Dems da rulz. The problem that you're not seeing is that the preferential treatment causes problems. It flat out shows that if you're not a percieved "Part of TL in group" then you get fucked as hard as you can, but if you're "Part of TL in group" then we cover dat shit up yo. There literally should be zero expectation for people to come in here, play mafia and be totes kool beans if you treat them like shit and don't give them a fair shake. So when you don't give people a fair shake, nobody should be surprised when shit starts raining from the heavens. The goal here is to fix the problem. The core problem isn't that I got 3 games and you got 1 warning for equivalent actions; the problem is that the current system in place has no safeguards against that. The core problem is that current system breeds inequality and unfairness; there's no unequal, unfair system around that doesn't breed resentment. The point is that to correct the "shitstorm" scenario, permabanning me isn't the fix. I'm not the first person who's done this. I won't be the last. The goal is to fix the system so that there aren't clear and obvious inequities so that people can't get their feelings or get angry with out unjustly they're being treated. Let me be clear to get it through your think skull: I'm not trying to push for a 3 or 8 or 20 game ban for you. You not being banned is just one of I'm sure many injustices that have been done just since the 2.0 banlist. If I were to go back further I'm sure that I could find many, many more. My goal is to correct the system so that the bullshit that allowed you to get away with 1 warning (which realistically isn't any punishment) instead of a 1 game and 3 game ban gets fixed. It's that plain and simple. | ||
|
Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
![[image loading]](http://cutepics.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/cute_fluffy_bunny.jpg) | ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
![[image loading]](http://onlypositive.net/image.axd?picture=2010%2F5%2FCute-Kitty-Hug.jpg) | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 06 2014 22:23 geript wrote: DP you're not getting my point. From an objective rules based stance, yes I deserve a 3 game ban. The problem is that there should be reasonable expectation of fair treatment. For example, StorrZerg should have a 2 game ban currently (instead of a 1 game ban), but he doesn't have that. Dems da rulz. The problem that you're not seeing is that the preferential treatment causes problems. It flat out shows that if you're not a percieved "Part of TL in group" then you get fucked as hard as you can, but if you're "Part of TL in group" then we cover dat shit up yo. There literally should be zero expectation for people to come in here, play mafia and be totes kool beans if you treat them like shit and don't give them a fair shake. So when you don't give people a fair shake, nobody should be surprised when shit starts raining from the heavens. The goal here is to fix the problem. The core problem isn't that I got 3 games and you got 1 warning for equivalent actions; the problem is that the current system in place has no safeguards against that. The core problem is that current system breeds inequality and unfairness; there's no unequal, unfair system around that doesn't breed resentment. The point is that to correct the "shitstorm" scenario, permabanning me isn't the fix. I'm not the first person who's done this. I won't be the last. The goal is to fix the system so that there aren't clear and obvious inequities so that people can't get their feelings or get angry with out unjustly they're being treated. Let me be clear to get it through your think skull: I'm not trying to push for a 3 or 8 or 20 game ban for you. You not being banned is just one of I'm sure many injustices that have been done just since the 2.0 banlist. If I were to go back further I'm sure that I could find many, many more. My goal is to correct the system so that the bullshit that allowed you to get away with 1 warning (which realistically isn't any punishment) instead of a 1 game and 3 game ban gets fixed. It's that plain and simple. What you fail to understand is what you did and they way you did it was much worse than what I did and they way I did it. It is not an injustice. It is a reflection of the severity of the behaviour. That is it. There is no injustice. There is no conspiracy. There is no preferential treatment. And you need to stop your crusade. Now. The system is the way it has been for years. It doesn;t need to change and most people don't want it to. If you want to continue playing here that is great. (and personally I hope we can put this shit behind us and do just that) But if you can't accept the way things work and if it actually a massive problem for you like it seems to then there are other sites to play mafia. Either way this shit needs to end. | ||
|
Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
The problem that you are talking about is your definition of "vets". It has nothing to do with their super status, you can get rid of the vet title. It's people that we know based on a track record aren't likely to repeat the same misdemeanour twice that we favour. This isn't the fucking EU/UN we aren't condemning terrorists here it's a fucking forum where we play a text based game?? If someone isn't likely to commit the same action twice then they should NOT be punished the same as someone who is a repeat offender or someone who is new. The whole point of the banlist is to make people think about their actions by sitting out a game they COULD have joined. Also, stop bringing up this DP shit. He actively sought a replacement and asked the host to switch out. The host could say no, the replacement could say no, yet they both said yes. It would be different if the host said no and then he rage quit but it didn't happen like that. It shouldn't even be a punishment and it is most definitely not the same as you getting modkilled on purpose. This wasn't even a problem at all in the community until YOU brought it up and it's STILL not a problem now. | ||
|
geript
10024 Posts
| ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
| ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
The fact is -- the active parts of the vets (currently) are on the receiving ends of the perks. They can continue to pretend it doesn't exist; and you can continue to voice awareness. Nothing will change anytime soon. You have to accept that as a consequence of playing on this forum. My 2c: Drop this, sit-out your games. One thing that is continually disappointing to see is how public some recent dramas have been. There is no need to infest these toxic relationships into every active thread. If your definition of justice is not served, then take it up with GM and/or Mig. ---------------------- DP needs to drop this too as a respected member of the active playing community. Whether you want to admit it or not; if you were talking to someone other than Geript about the same issue you would have a much more open approach to the whole situation. This alone indicates that you should be avoiding this component of the discussion in my opinion. ---------------------- Lastly, I never had a major problem with the previous system. In fact, I was rather grateful to be on the receiving end of the angels side of the Ban 1.0 system numerous times. In one case, a host had a personal grudge with me and decided a first-time offense merited a 3-game ban -- even though said host openly did not follow the ban list. However, the above is still a solid example of the disparity that exists and can be pushed when reputation proceeds equality. In the scenario above, I felt I did a wrong, so self-imposed a ban. Because, yes, I actually believe in what I am saying. /over-out | ||
|
syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
| ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
Thank you kind sir | ||
|
syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
On January 06 2014 22:59 Mocsta wrote: How kind you are syllo to respond to my post out of the 120+ odd posts. Thank you kind sir It wasn't intended as a response to you and was mostly directed at Geript. I just happened to borrow your phrasing. | ||
|
Grackaroni
United States9846 Posts
On January 06 2014 23:00 syllogism wrote: It wasn't intended as a response to you and was mostly directed at Geript. I just happened to borrow your phrasing. Way to crush a man's dreams. | ||
|
Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
tbh, the only solution would be for geript to host games, so we could all witness how fairly and justly he'd ban everybody he doesn't like. Leading by example and all. | ||
|
syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
| ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 06 2014 23:14 syllogism wrote: I don't understand why my post provoked that reply as the intention wasn't to dismiss Mocsta's views on the matter and I've never had any problems with him. In fact, he is one of the players I'm always happy to see playing. He wasn't being serious sweetheart. | ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
But my dreams were crushed  | ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
| ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
Need to crack that stiff upper lip o' yours, dear | ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
| ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On January 06 2014 23:12 Dandel Ion wrote: Exactly, this has nothing to do with vets at all. tbh, the only solution would be for geript to host games, so we could all witness how fairly and justly he'd ban everybody he doesn't like. Leading by example and all. well, Geript did host one of my newbies A long time ago, but still... | ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
lets dominate these non-aussies | ||
|
Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
On January 06 2014 23:29 Aquanim wrote: well, Geript did host one of my newbies A long time ago, but still... Ditto. Geript you also offered to let me shadow. However keep this up and I may blow your mind. Let me simply say this as I hate getting drastic: there are indeed other sites to play on. If YOU cannot take the heat, leave the kitchen for a while before turning off every oven and citing Cal-OSHA regulations everywhere you can. This is how an employee gets fired- you seem to see TL Mafia as an obligation and work, so I hope you will relate to my wording. If anyone does not know what cal-OSHA is I will oblige soon. Cal-OSHA are a govt group that targets farms pools and theme parks almost exclusively (google them with images, you will see). Frankly if they would calm down all of America would be a better place. (Food prices alone) Note the following images, taken from their site! ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/G2ZkEv6.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JNn5myd.jpg) Very reasonable demands taken to a recent extreme. All employers must be capable of running a suicide prevention facility as well a their business. People of TL Mafia, especially geript currently but all who would cause drama over this: this is largely how I see you. | ||
|
kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On January 02 2014 12:06 geript wrote: Those 2 admitted to cheating. You flat out admitted to collaborating in covering up the cheating. On January 03 2014 04:32 GMarshal wrote: Because I'm apparently biased, or trying to sweep things under the rug or something On May 12 2011 03:23 Coagulation wrote: So its pretty clear at this point that qatol has no desire to punish cheaters if they are his friends. Its been weeks now and I only see qatol trying to sweep this under the rug and hope everyone just forgets. On January 05 2014 03:49 geript wrote: It's clear everyone else is fine with this type of biased treatment continuing On May 12 2011 03:23 Coagulation wrote: Im gonna give qatol 24 hours to punish them for cheating in an unbiased and fair way that he would apply to any other player here On January 06 2014 22:23 geript wrote: It flat out shows that if you're not a percieved "Part of TL in group" then you get fucked as hard as you can, but if you're "Part of TL in group" then we cover dat shit up yo. On May 11 2011 06:12 Lemonwalrus wrote: This subforum is run by an ingroup and whenever something goes against what they want they squash it and the majority of you circle-jerk about how awesome they are. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. | ||
|
Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
On January 06 2014 18:31 raynpelikoneet wrote: And this is why host discretion is bullshit. This is all about how people in that game feel about things. You can't possibly say i should not feel offended or should feel less offended for someone breaking rule X instead of rule Y. Do you think geript is legitmately bullshitting and does not feel robbed because someone broke rules like he did and he got a different punishment than the other person? Like do you really think he just has some personal issues against someone which are so strong he feels like he needs to bring the issue up to everyone and argue against everyone about it? Because i don't, and i completely understand him regarding the ban thingy. This is why it should go like this: Mods set the rules for the games -> you sign up you agree to the rules -> if you break the rules you get a ban -> if you repeatedly break the rules in games you get a more severe ban (like 2nd time, 3-game ban, 3rd time 5-game ban, etc etc). It should not matter if you are a newbie or a vet, because regardless of your status you should know the rules and by signing up to a game you agree to follow the rules, whatever they are. It really is that simple. Not to argue with your major points which I find I generally agree with but as to the bolded: yes. That is exactly how geript feels according to PMs he has sent me. Revenge against a few who he feels wronged by is the motivation for his actions. I find myself believing more in leniency for newbies and less for vets, I may be in a majority of one here but hear me out, if newbie Y gets inactivity modkilled but comes back interested to play and didn't realize he was in the game (in this case I'm talking about nyxnyxnyx specifically) I find myself much more interested in letting that player play than someone who has been around long enough to know better getting similarly modkilled. Bill Murray did exactly the same thing in WoS' pyp game (if memory serves) but if he came back and asked for requital I'd be much less lenient with him because he knows better. After the two times I've had to replace out and my one inactivity modkill I've always been straightforward with the hosts that I am totally willing to accept a ban for my actions. I even feel that I deserve a ban for said actions. Real life has gotten in the way in all three occurrences and others have come through for me as replacements (shoutouts to BH and Mocsta) just as I, in the past, have replaced others. As a vet though I believe that I deserve to be held to a higher standard. I deserve to be warned or banned for my inability to remain in a game. It is my responsibility as a vet to be a good example for newer players and newer players should be able to look at my game history and my ban history and see me following the rules every step of the way. Another example which OO brought to the thread earlier is of a warning he received for posting in a qt during a newbie game. First of all it was only an in game warning and did not go to the ban list at all and second of all if OO did the same thing now it would be a ban list warning. He knows better. He is a 'vet' I guess, though that term seems very nebulous now that I see it being applied to people I coached given that I don't easily apply it to myself. On January 06 2014 22:58 syllogism wrote: The people involved in this drama aren't or weren't even "vets" and certainly not people "on the receiving end" of any perks. Mig, who reviewed the situation, probably barely even recognized DarthPunk by name. This, a million times this. DP, Mocsta, myslef and many others are not by the general definition of TL mafia: vets. I hear the word bandied about in my general direction on occasion and I can't say it applies to me. I'm a decent player, I've been here close to two years and I keep trying to get better. There you have it. I'm no more vet than geript is. | ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Edit: "massive paragraph about righteous self-flagellation and being a vet and held to higher standards as a vet blablablablablablablabla" "except i'm not a vet and nor are all these people lols" | ||
|
iVLosK!
Djibouti545 Posts
On January 06 2014 22:41 geript wrote: Now you're just being dense. If you have a problem with me trying to fix the system, something which I'm not going to stop doing until the system gets fixed then you can either help me get it change OR if that's a massive problem for you like it seems to be then there are other sites for you to play mafia on. How rude is that? Holyflare has been here just as long as you have and (surprise, surprise) nobody has a problem with him, he didnt fall victim to the massive Veteran conspiracy to *get* the noobies. Actually, there are other sites for YOU to play on. I've been quietly reading all 7 pages of this until this post. If you have a problem with the way things are run here, no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to /in to more games. I've never played with you and don't have any experience in that regard, but I have been playing mafia for some time and quite frankly, the impression that I get from the half-dozen-or-so TL players who I've talked to off-site about this is that TL would be an infinitely better place if YOU left, or at least gave yourself a dramatic attitude adjustment. If you look around you and think everyone else is a problem, you're the problem. Maybe people would take you more seriously if you weren't so delusionally butthurt about a punishment that you totally deserved and I hope you receive again someday. Ps. Don't come to OMGUS, we have no decorum and will tear you to fucking shreds. | ||
|
HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
did I understand this correctly? | ||
|
Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
On January 07 2014 01:29 marvellosity wrote: Prome, you're funny. Edit: "massive paragraph about righteous self-flagellation and being a vet and held to higher standards as a vet blablablablablablablabla" "except i'm not a vet and nor are all these people lols" Heh, good point. But substitute in 'experienced' instead of 'vet' again its hard for me to look at these definitions because, well, I don't see myself as a vet even though I know others do. The term 'vet' on TL means less and less the more generations of players we have since each of us is a vet to those who come after and will never be a vet to those who came before. | ||
|
jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
| ||
|
kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On January 07 2014 01:38 Promethelax wrote: Heh, good point. But substitute in 'experienced' instead of 'vet' again its hard for me to look at these definitions because, well, I don't see myself as a vet even though I know others do. The term 'vet' on TL means less and less the more generations of players we have since each of us is a vet to those who come after and will never be a vet to those who came before. The true test to determine whether or not you are a veteran is to shoot you in the face and see if you survive the night. | ||
|
jaybrundage
United States3921 Posts
On January 07 2014 01:42 kitaman27 wrote: The true test to determine whether or not you are a veteran is to shoot you in the face and see if you survive the night. BACK in my day you couldn't be a vet unless you were B- in ICCUP, BW | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 07 2014 01:38 Promethelax wrote: Heh, good point. But substitute in 'experienced' instead of 'vet' again its hard for me to look at these definitions because, well, I don't see myself as a vet even though I know others do. The term 'vet' on TL means less and less the more generations of players we have since each of us is a vet to those who come after and will never be a vet to those who came before. Previous vet's may not consider our generation vet's which kind of makes sense because we are newbies to them right? But if you spend two years and thousands of posts playing mafia here then you are a vet. Not that it means anything. But it is an apt description for people who have played a lot and been around for a couple of years. | ||
|
Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On January 07 2014 01:33 iVLosK! wrote: How rude is that? Holyflare has been here just as long as you have and (surprise, surprise) nobody has a problem with him, he didnt fall victim to the massive Veteran conspiracy to *get* the noobies. Actually, there are other sites for YOU to play on. I've been quietly reading all 7 pages of this until this post. If you have a problem with the way things are run here, no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to /in to more games. I've never played with you and don't have any experience in that regard, but I have been playing mafia for some time and quite frankly, the impression that I get from the half-dozen-or-so TL players who I've talked to off-site about this is that TL would be an infinitely better place if YOU left, or at least gave yourself a dramatic attitude adjustment. If you look around you and think everyone else is a problem, you're the problem. Maybe people would take you more seriously if you weren't so delusionally butthurt about a punishment that you totally deserved and I hope you receive again someday. Ps. Don't come to OMGUS, we have no decorum and will tear you to fucking shreds. I think he was replying to DP not me | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
(and thanks to OO for moving this out of the banlist thread) | ||
|
Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
| ||
|
kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On November 03 2011 03:39 GMarshal wrote: Stop sabotaging my conspiracy. I decided to remedy the lack of players on TL by becoming new players, ok? | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
>.> <.< >.> | ||
|
Corazon
United States3230 Posts
I still feel like veterans have a bit more leeway when it comes to warnings/bans. I'm not specifically talking about things like talking out of game, I'm more talking about how harsh some of them can be. Yeah, I know it's their playstyle, but some of them tend to be out of line with the things they say. Yet, they just get looked over because it's part of their "playstyle". I really don't understand. However, I also acknowledge that Geript has made this giant wall and in choosing to agree with him, I basically have to throw what I say over the wall. It's hard to do. Perhaps I will bring this issue up later, because I don't think it will do anything now. I'm sorry to GM for "shitting up the ban thread" (according to OO). P.S. BH, you seem to have some really similar names for your friends in your alternate TL Mafia universe. | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
| ||
|
Corazon
United States3230 Posts
On January 07 2014 03:34 Blazinghand wrote: It's just coincidence that they're smilar. Some of them are quite differnet like gdcRocazon I've heard of that guy. Isn't he like a mafia god or something? | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
| ||
|
Corazon
United States3230 Posts
On January 07 2014 03:43 Blazinghand wrote: nope So then that must make me a mafia god in this universe | ||
|
Meapak_Ziphh
United States6786 Posts
Never change... never change | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
Ultimate solution. /rayn out of this thread love you all <3 | ||
|
iVLosK!
Djibouti545 Posts
On January 07 2014 03:19 Corazon wrote: Ow Hiro, that hurt. Hit above the belt next time, please. You are never going to enjoy your time on this forum (or the internet) as long as you continue to consider the below quote hitting "below the belt." That was a pretty diplomatic way of explaining this clusterfuck. On January 07 2014 01:37 HiroPro wrote: so corazon is mad because there are a lot of people that he doesn't like and they keep talking to him and he needs to get them banned somehow without irritating GM (by talking about them directly). geript is mad that other people didn't get banned when he did even though the circumstances and their behavior were different. did I understand this correctly? | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On January 07 2014 04:12 iVLosK! wrote: You are never going to enjoy your time on this forum (or the internet) as long as you continue to consider the below quote hitting "below the belt." That was a pretty diplomatic way of explaining this clusterfuck. Man, no need to be that way. I give cora some credit for his response here. 2 weeks ago if you asked me how I expected cora would respond to that, I'd say with cursing and anger. Now he's polite and makes his wishes clear without just imposing them. You can criticize him for that comment but I actually think it's fine. After all, if someone brought up one of my past snafus (ie getting banned in that game when i was hydraed with jitsu), I'd probably laugh it off, but it would also be entirely acceptable for me to say "that hurt. please hit above the belt" or similar. It might not make me look like a super awesome cool kid but HiroPro would probably be like "okay man whatever" and not really care. Cora's not making a demand, he's making a polite request, and I don't see anything wrong with it. I read that comment and felt no need to lecture him. Normally I don't really respond to stuff like this since your comment is also fairly innocuous. I don't really have a problem with it. The main thing here is I want to publicly state that I support this improved attitude from Cora, and when he acts like this, I approve. | ||
|
wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 07 2014 02:57 GMarshal wrote: So we concluded that the vast majority of people agree that the system works, GM isn't part of some conspiracy and that things will continue the way they are? (and thanks to OO for moving this out of the banlist thread) that's exactly what a conspirator would say ##nuke GMarshal | ||
|
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On January 07 2014 04:41 wherebugsgo wrote: that's exactly what a conspirator would say ##nuke GMarshal Damn, I've been caught. Time to accelerate the plan! I mean, uh, oh no! I am doomed! In unrelated news, BayonnetAnderson will be taking over the banlist. | ||
|
iVLosK!
Djibouti545 Posts
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
yes he is definitely not GMarsh | ||
|
BayonnetAnderson
United States60 Posts
On January 07 2014 04:47 GMarshal wrote: Damn, I've been caught. Time to accelerate the plan! I mean, uh, oh no! I am doomed! In unrelated news, BayonnetAnderson will be taking over the banlist. I am the bringer of divine retribution, I shall purge all with the fires of heaven! Not one sinner shall be forgotten! AMEN | ||
|
Coagulation
United States9633 Posts
we want the benevolent hand of justice gmarsh back. | ||
|
WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
hai guise | ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
| ||
|
WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
In terms of my polarity on the myriad of subjects broached here, I think I'm somewhere in the centre in that I don't really think there's a whole lot of preferential treatment going on necessarily but I don't know if I'm satisfied with the way current rules/bans work, though I don't see them as likely to change anytime soon. | ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
| ||
|
WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img.buzznet.com/assets/imgx/2/1/6/6/2/7/1/orig-2166271.jpg) | ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
Like from the early 90s? Jebus.. am I that old? | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 07 2014 09:21 Mocsta wrote: Is that from Hook lol? Like from the early 90s? Jebus.. am I that old? I like that movie. | ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
right answers get bonus points that help your alignment ! ohhh yeahh.im liking this already. Factional Level Up system Now I need WoS to theme this biatche up. | ||
|
kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On January 07 2014 09:45 Mocsta wrote: Should totally do a "guess which movie this meme is from" lol That would make a perfect Big Brother 2 mini-game! There has got to be a huge demand for another. In fact, it should probably get its own queue. | ||
|
WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On January 07 2014 09:45 Mocsta wrote: Should totally do a "guess which movie this meme is from" lol right answers get bonus points that help your alignment ! ohhh yeahh.im liking this already. Factional Level Up system Now I need WoS to theme this biatche up. .......wat | ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
| ||
|
WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
Poll: Should the 'Drama Queen' award exist? Yes (20) No (5) 25 total votes Your vote: Should the 'Drama Queen' award exist? Why or why not? | ||
|
HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
I'd rename it the Toadesstern Award though | ||
|
Rean
Netherlands808 Posts
On January 07 2014 13:58 WaveofShadow wrote: Random Q/poll: Poll: Should the 'Drama Queen' award exist? Yes (20) No (5) 25 total votes Your vote: Should the 'Drama Queen' award exist? Why or why not? I don't see any reason why it shouldn't, it's quite a fun award. | ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
| ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
Poll: Should we eat food? No (23) Yes (3) 26 total votes Your vote: Should we eat food? | ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
| ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On January 09 2014 09:15 Holyflare wrote: When people are actively trying to figure out the game by asking questions of other people and the majority of those questions remain unanswered for an entirety of a day-2 days or the person is asked if they are around but they respond with 1 or 2 lines of non helpful words then I question the commitment of said player to actually solving/playing the game. I understand that questions can be missed but a lot of the time it's just seemingly lack of caring. I get people have RL issues and time constraints but when it is a repetitive issue then something should be discussed. This isn't just for this case specifically because it applies to several instances in different games with different people and I don't know what can be done about it either because people are way too "nice" to go balls deep and punish it or come up with ideas about it because they don't want to step on peoples toes. edit: can move to OO's thread if this is clogging up ban list thread Why not try my host "effort" clause in a couple of games. Its totally fair game to ban people for "lack of caring", as long as they know that when they play the game, they are subject to the host's judgement as to what constitutes effort. Its a burden on the host, but its what cohosts are for. | ||
|
Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
| ||
|
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On January 09 2014 09:30 Holyflare wrote: Well as long as it has your approval i'm totally OK with that effort clause being bannable. I foresee a lot of "but i did put effort in" posts and raging though Sure, but if you sign up for a game and you know that the host has final say on if you put enough effort, you don't have room to complain, if the clause bothers you, don't play in that persons game. | ||
|
Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On January 09 2014 09:39 GMarshal wrote: Sure, but if you sign up for a game and you know that the host has final say on if you put enough effort, you don't have room to complain, if the clause bothers you, don't play in that persons game. Well now we just need to get hosts to start using the clause then. | ||
|
iGrok
United States5142 Posts
 | ||
|
WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On January 09 2014 09:40 Holyflare wrote: Well now we just need to get hosts to start using the clause then. I would totally have used that clause for PYP: LoL if I knew that the community in general wouldn't outright reject it. | ||
|
Umasi
United States1399 Posts
On January 09 2014 09:40 Holyflare wrote: Well now we just need to get hosts to start using the clause then. I haven't read the discussion too thoroughly so if I'm way off here so be it, (and if the discussion is about a town player not caring, then I agree with the idea that a host should be able to ban him for it) but as scum, not posting/missing questions/not answering certain things/ (not specifically caring?) is a strategy, so it'd be incorrect to punish them. although I'm not sure. in the recent witchcraft II game, vanesco+me lurked pretty friggen hard, and didn't do a lot (we were both scum) and thrawn was going bonkers about the lack of activity and caring. If this clause was present, (since I've already mentioned why scum shouldn't be subject to it in the same capacity town is,) it might be used as a tool to figure out if the not caring person is scum or town. Specifically, if BH implemented the clause, thrawn could be like 'they would have been modkilled if they were town>q.e.d. they are scum' I have ideas and am typing the things and making the words but idk if it was coherent, or if I entirely understood what the conversation was about in the first place. | ||
|
Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On January 09 2014 12:39 Umasi wrote: I haven't read the discussion too thoroughly so if I'm way off here so be it, (and if the discussion is about a town player not caring, then I agree with the idea that a host should be able to ban him for it) but as scum, not posting/missing questions/not answering certain things/ (not specifically caring?) is a strategy, so it'd be incorrect to punish them. although I'm not sure. in the recent witchcraft II game, vanesco+me lurked pretty friggen hard, and didn't do a lot (we were both scum) and thrawn was going bonkers about the lack of activity and caring. If this clause was present, (since I've already mentioned why scum shouldn't be subject to it in the same capacity town is,) it might be used as a tool to figure out if the not caring person is scum or town. Specifically, if BH implemented the clause, thrawn could be like 'they would have been modkilled if they were town>q.e.d. they are scum' I have ideas and am typing the things and making the words but idk if it was coherent, or if I entirely understood what the conversation was about in the first place. I understand what you mean but these bans would be dealt with after the game so wouldn't be used to determine a players alignment within the game. It IS a valid scum tactic to lurk and dodge questions I agree and that is perfectly acceptable within a game but that only works when other people are doing the same thing and if they are doing that as town they are actively playing against their win con's. I do not mind less activity with thoughtful posts and I do not mind people that try and contribute but struggle to post or are blue and want to tone down their posting a bit but almost no activity with little posting of content or literally afking and posting to fulfill posting/voting requirement is a blatant disregard to playing to win. Not ALL games even have to follow these rules, it's totally at the hosts discretion. If this clause was added to a game I expect the level of play to be higher because of it and personally I would be more likely to /in to it over a game without it. | ||
|
geript
10024 Posts
My point is that there is a base set of clearly define expectations for playing in a game. Shouldn't there be a base set recommended punitive actions for actions in games? | ||
|
geript
10024 Posts
| ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
If I get banned for saying "fuck fuck dicknipples" and spamming GIFs in a GMarshal game but Ace lets it pass, I just adapt to the host in question to play the game I choose to play in. Some hosts are more laid back and some are more strict and we get to pick the games we play in based not only on setup but on who the host is. That's just how things run here, how they have run, and how it seems people want to continue to let it run. | ||
|
kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
Lurking is a viable strat for scum and there's no reason to take it away, except spammers rage because their annoying spam strat has been countered. yall need to think outside the box. What I value in my games is mafia purity. And by that I mean players can play in any way they choose as long as it doesn't violate a clear cut set of rules layed out before hand. "Effort" is so subjective it's ridiculous. There is going to be a lot of mod action analysis from that. Because in a way lack of effort may be a scumstrat. So if a host gets pissed at lack of effort, that could be a scumtell for that player. And I disagree that the game because impossible for town with lurkers. You're all just bad. | ||
|
kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
| ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On January 24 2014 20:26 kushm4sta wrote: um why is effort required. why is activity required even? there are rules like you have to post once a day and vote. As long as someone follows those rules in any way they choose, they should not be modkilled. Lurking is a viable strat for scum and there's no reason to take it away, except spammers rage because their annoying spam strat has been countered. yall need to think outside the box. What I value in my games is mafia purity. And by that I mean players can play in any way they choose as long as it doesn't violate a clear cut set of rules layed out before hand. "Effort" is so subjective it's ridiculous. There is going to be a lot of mod action analysis from that. Because in a way lack of effort may be a scumstrat. So if a host gets pissed at lack of effort, that could be a scumtell for that player. And I disagree that the game because impossible for town with lurkers. You're all just bad. There isnt too much that is more frustrating to me than people who say nothing fro 48hrs and then last minute vote. This rarely does anything to elucidate that players alignment and to me at least, can make the game unbearable. Unfortunately, town does it plenty, as does scum. Some ppl just shouldnt be signing up to play, as the above is not an acceptable (IMHO) usage of the 1 post/day clause. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
We get to choose whether that is even a problem by signing up for games where the "model OP" rules are unchanged or adjusted to our taste (5 posts per day, perhaps, or some other arbitrary number). If you want to lynch someone who appears to be squandering their 1 post per day on garbage and contributing nothing else, you can use that as a platform to get them lynched. If that's not acceptable terms for dealing with it, we might just not be hardcore enough here at TL and there are probably other more rigorous communities that will supply that type of environment, or you can make your own! | ||
|
Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On January 24 2014 20:50 ObviousOne wrote: The problem is, I dont want to.We get to choose whether or not to play with those players who only post once per day or whatever by opting out or through WOTC. We get to choose whether that is even a problem by signing up for games where the "model OP" rules are unchanged or adjusted to our taste (5 posts per day, perhaps, or some other arbitrary number). If you want to lynch someone who appears to be squandering their 1 post per day on garbage and contributing nothing else, you can use that as a platform to get them lynched. If that's not acceptable terms for dealing with it, we might just not be hardcore enough here at TL and there are probably other more rigorous communities that will supply that type of environment, or you can make your own! Other than Rayn, I always try lynch scum >>> town. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On January 24 2014 21:25 Mocsta wrote: The problem is, I dont want to. Other than Rayn, I always try lynch scum >>> town. I think it's a problem that solves itself if it's done over and over again by deterring that player from signing up through getting lynched. Otherwise we might have something like: HazingBland signs up for LT Mafia I and posts once and gets lynched day 1 for not participating. HazingBland signs up for LT Mafia IV and posts once and gets lynched day 1 for not participating. HazingBland signs up for LT Mafia IX and posts once and gets lynched day 1 for not participating. You as a player can plead your case to the host showing the evidence that it would be a wasted slot and I'm sure that without any assurances from HazingBland that this current game (LT Mafia XIII) will be different, that the host's discretion can be to not allow that player to play in that game. That's totally an option to you as well, you may find a host who agrees with you in that regard. Has anyone tried this yet? [Any resemblance of player or game names to actual players is happenstance and totally fictional] | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
to Mocsta's post. ^^ | ||
|
kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
Policy lynching - some boring shit you start the game with. But it can be more. Imagine if people actually voted for policy (which they never do), it would add a lot of drama and metagame. The way it is now "you MUST read the thread", you are modkilled for lack of effort, is actually limiting the breadth of the game. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
| ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
geript
10024 Posts
| ||
|
OdinOfPergo
United States840 Posts
Just a tantrum that I'll keep real short. Oh... my ... fuxsinating (My sfw filter functions!) How the dues does Kush/Oats flip town after their performance in SMB?? My mind, it hurts. Like seriously hurts. Ugh, I won't go on a spiel. I didn't know of a better place to voice my dis-satisfaction. Didn't want to clutter other the ban thread (since they met the minimum at least so it's not like anything will come from it regardless.) But holy crap. It's things like this that make me really hesitant to join mafia games now. Or at least I can say, I am going to be wotc'ing so many players from games I intend to join. /end rant. | ||
|
WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On January 27 2014 09:14 OdinOfPergo wrote: Ok, before hand, this is not a serious note. Just a tantrum that I'll keep real short. Oh... my ... fuxsinating (My sfw filter functions!) How the dues does Kush/Oats flip town after their performance in SMB?? My mind, it hurts. Like seriously hurts. Ugh, I won't go on a spiel. I didn't know of a better place to voice my dis-satisfaction. Didn't want to clutter other the ban thread (since they met the minimum at least so it's not like anything will come from it regardless.) But holy crap. It's things like this that make me really hesitant to join mafia games now. Or at least I can say, I am going to be wotc'ing so many players from games I intend to join. /end rant. I.....what? | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 27 2014 09:14 OdinOfPergo wrote: Ok, before hand, this is not a serious note. Just a tantrum that I'll keep real short. Oh... my ... fuxsinating (My sfw filter functions!) How the dues does Kush/Oats flip town after their performance in SMB?? My mind, it hurts. Like seriously hurts. Ugh, I won't go on a spiel. I didn't know of a better place to voice my dis-satisfaction. Didn't want to clutter other the ban thread (since they met the minimum at least so it's not like anything will come from it regardless.) But holy crap. It's things like this that make me really hesitant to join mafia games now. Or at least I can say, I am going to be wotc'ing so many players from games I intend to join. /end rant. What? Is reading someones alignment incorrectly their fault or yours? | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On January 27 2014 11:26 DarthPunk wrote: What? Is reading someones alignment incorrectly their fault or yours? Well, your unspoken answer is "your own fault for reading them incorrectly". My own opinion is more nuanced. If I were to walk into a game and begin trolling my heart out, people would quite properly believe I was mafia (since I'd be playing against town wincon and against my own town meta) and lynch me. In my opinion, other people's scumreads on me in that case would in fact be my own damn fault. I'm not going to say out loud that I think other people deliberately troll in games as town and don't give a damn about their own wincon. On the other hand, sometimes people play a perfectly good towngame and get lynched for truly derpy reasons (say, having a scumread on player X because player X treated one of their scumreads like a human being and remained interested in their opinion rather than screaming OMG YOURE SCUM LOLOL). In that case, people's scumreads on them are the fault of the people making the reads. There's a continuum of blame between the two. | ||
|
OdinOfPergo
United States840 Posts
Ye, pretty much along the lines of the above. I don't expect anything to change and I don't really want to have a discussion on it. More of a emotional response at the end of a game I thought I had some sort of idea of. I was completely wrong but meh. I'm always going to be completely wrong when town players come into games with w/e, dun care attitudes. The answer to this in my own head falls on "Yep, I'd rather lynch 100 townies doing something scummy than miss 1 scum doing it." Maby that's worded bad but hopefully it gets my point across. | ||
|
Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
| ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On January 27 2014 22:57 OdinOfPergo wrote: @Darth Ye, pretty much along the lines of the above. I don't expect anything to change and I don't really want to have a discussion on it. More of a emotional response at the end of a game I thought I had some sort of idea of. I was completely wrong but meh. I'm always going to be completely wrong when town players come into games with w/e, dun care attitudes. The answer to this in my own head falls on "Yep, I'd rather lynch 100 townies doing something scummy than miss 1 scum doing it." Maby that's worded bad but hopefully it gets my point across. That is ridiculous. If 100 townies are doing something 'scummy' then that thing is not scummy. | ||
|
Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
| ||
|
OdinOfPergo
United States840 Posts
Trending styles seems to be afk and do not a whole heck of a lot for lots of people right now. I don't see how you can treat these as town tells. Null at best maby. | ||
|
Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
So you just dont like the way people play. I guess you shouldnt play then. Although, who afked and was obviously scum and flipped town in SMB? Nobody. | ||
|
Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
cephiro too but he didn't get lynched so he didnt "flip" i guess | ||
|
OdinOfPergo
United States840 Posts
But ye, I suppose your right. This games to hard for me! C ya~ | ||
|
Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
Odin, there are many more things that make people scum than just activity. Its what makes the game fun, if its always the same then it wouldnt be any fun would it? I DIDNT WANT YOU TO QUIT ODIN. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
| ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 27 2014 23:21 Oatsmaster wrote: If someone who does it flips town, its a towntell right? So you just dont like the way people play. I guess you shouldnt play then. Although, who afked and was obviously scum and flipped town in SMB? Nobody. It's a dumbass tell | ||
|
Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
HAH. | ||
|
marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
| ||
|
kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
| ||
|
Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
On January 28 2014 00:24 marvellosity wrote: Ain't that just sad. Now you're just being mean. | ||
|
kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
| ||
|
OdinOfPergo
United States840 Posts
I didn't mean to offend people regardless. I tried to hint towards that in my initial post.. @Oats - I'm not going to quit!! I'll just be choosy about the games I join. @Kush - Ye my bad, I completely mixed up your filter from the games I was watching. D1 in SMB wasn't fantastic but meh, I have terror reads. @ Everyone else - Ok so just ignore my post! I made it in the immediate aftermath of a game. Mostly because I was 100% wrong and annoyed because of it. Sorry if anyone feels I lashed out at them. As you were peoples~ | ||
|
WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
| ||
|
OdinOfPergo
United States840 Posts
On January 28 2014 04:50 WaveofShadow wrote: Odin I think you just have to take mafia a little less seriously. You get waaayyy too emotionally invested from what I've seen of you. ^ This is wayyy too true. Obviously, even from games I'm just obs and not even playing.. Ugh. | ||
|
Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On January 27 2014 23:57 DarthPunk wrote: Why would you quit just cause people disagree with you. Makes no sense. I'm pretty sure he was considering quitting because he doesn't like the playstyle and personas of people on this forum (which is entirely reasonable, justifiable, and he's not alone), not because you disagreed with him. | ||
|
Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
On January 28 2014 00:28 kushm4sta wrote: oh no i dind't get viged. I got killed by scum n1 so don't mention me in your nonsense odin You were a n1 scum kill? Congratulations! | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On April 14 2014 07:11 gonzaw wrote: The problem with the "appeal to emotion" stuff is when it's something that gets personal. Nobody gives a shit (or they shouldn't) if somebody says "I swear on my cat's titties that I'm town", but there are other situations where it could affect the one on the receiving end (generally a townie). I guess it depends on the lengths we are willing to go to in this game. Do we want this to be jolly good fun, or do we want this to be a Game of Thrones setting? Do we only allow normal lies and normal play, or do we also allow psychological manipulation against the manipulated's volition? How do we want our mafia games to be played? How do we want our community to play theses games? For example, imagine player A had a sister that died in the Holocaust. Should player B, who is scum, be able to make an appeal to player A like "I am not scum A, you know your sister would think the same if she were with us! Player C is Hitler!" (granted this is a stupid example)? If he can't, should player B be able to make said appeal if he's town instead? This is an extreme example since it's obviously aimed at player A and his experiences, but similar appeals could be made that are subtler. At what point do you draw a line? The simplest way to solve it is if nobody did it, as either town nor scum. If you are town and you have that kind of stuff you want to say in the thread to "help" your cause, just don't. If you are scum and can "fake" or manipulate someone in such a way, that you know will help you win tremendously, but would be seen as an "unethical" kind of manipulation, just don't. Nobody should force anybody to do anything, nor force bans on stuff like "I swear by my life", etc. We just make a silent agreement to not do this kind of stuff voluntarily. If it slips or happens every once in a while, well, tough luck. But in general, it would be better to avoid this kind of tactics I believe, so it maximizes the fun of all players, and not just the one that uses said tactic to try and win the game. 'Nother example. If you are playing football, and you are going to score and are 1on1 with the keeper, and you are falling, do you try and take a dive so the ref gives you a penalty? If you do so convincingly, then you can get the penalty. If the ref notices it, at worst you get a yellow card. Based on the rules, this is allowed, and in this specific situation it would be your best bet to win the game (since you are falling and won't be able to score otherwise). Should you dive or should you not? Similarly, if you are scum in a game, and are falling (getting lynched, whatever), you can try and take a dive (make an appeal to townies). You know that if the ref notices it (townies figure out you are bullshiting), you'll get a yellow card (get lynched), but if the ref misses it (townies fall for it), you'll get the penalty and score (avoid lynch). Now, this behaviour is not "allowed", and it is the ref's job to notice this kind of things (townies should notice when scum is bullshiting with such kind of appeals), yet it is possible for the ref to miss it, making it a viable tactic for a player to use to try and win their game. But should that player use said tactic or not? More importantly, is this analogy correct or not? If it is, then what does it make you think about this kind of behaviour in games? If it is not...then GG I guess I'm stupid. Did you watch the Barcelona match yesterday? LOL. Also damn Liverpool can win the Premier League, this seemed so fucking unexpected half a season before. On April 14 2014 07:25 Blazinghand wrote: I personally make the opposite agreement. I non-silently, loudly agree to voluntarily, regardless of alignment, do anything within the rules of the game to win that I think will work. I will post photoshopped pictures of plane tickets, I will lie about how long my dinner lasts, I'll talk about how I just got dumped by my gf and feeling depressed. As long as the hosts allow it, I will do it, if it gives my side a better chance to win. No matter what. On April 14 2014 07:56 gonzaw wrote: Well BH, I guess you are the exception then. But at least we know we can ignore you if you do that kind of stuff, but we don't know if we should ignore it or not when random dude X does it. So BH, imagine you are scum getting lynched, and to avoid suspicion you have to come up with a story about how you were cooking porkchops the entire time. At what lengths would you go to make us believe that story? How would you crack the porkchop defense? (hint I'm hungry) Anyways, how about this: We all agree to silently abide by that rule (don't do weird "unethical" mafia plays). Yet, if you don't believe in those rules, and believe you should be able to use those tactics in games, then you should be like BH and tell everybody that you will use those tactics at any time you see fit clear and loudly, so we all know about it. Thus, if we find BH or some dude that did the above doing weird mafia plays, we'll know and can prepare (and either believe him or not). But if some other random dude does it, we assume he agreed with the silent treaty from above, so this must be an exceptional case, and not him doing this voluntarily to fuck us up. On April 14 2014 10:39 AxleGreaser wrote: Well apparently you will lie in the ban list thread.... to further your future potential scummy agenda? From my observation, there is rather large pool of things you do NOT do as town. I have never seen you make comparison between a players posting style and Idi Amin. While your play in LX as town was out in direction 'X' as town,(unlike how you have often played since) you did have a cop red check you were pushing.+ Show Spoiler [Edit(errata)] + Errata/Clarification: hence there are actually lots of things you wont do to win as scum, because they would get you lynched as you don't do them as town either. Basically if everyone played like BH it would be: A/ boring(just as if everyone played the same as anyone) B/ pretty much no one would be complaining about anything except perhaps on occasion an air of IDGAF as town, or a wagon of false justice when you have an inaccurate red check. It is the list of thing you usually do not do as town that I suspect Gonzaw referred to. No one is asking you to play like your maiden aunt would. As you understand the value of getting other players sheep your play as town, indeed leading wagon and getting other people to vote for it is the essence of town. The alternative of throwing enough unpleasant emotive shit around that everyone feels they need gumboots to even read the thread. I too, in order to win, will do anything that I will do as town as scum. (Its the much larger list of things other people do as town that I wouldn't want to do as as scum) If there were appeals I could make as town that I'd feel too bad to make as scum,... they would be towny seals by another name. When I played in LIX I was scum, the list of things I didnt(and wouldnt) do the day i was lynched as scum is now on the list of things I also wont do as town. (Lie about my RL sleep patterns is one. I woke up when I said I did in that game.) The only reason I don't post fake pictures about my dinner, (because that is really such a convincing argument as exemplified by all the times BH did it and it swayed the thread.) is because RL due to my TZ does in fact impact my ability to play the game and it would make the game lot less fun for me if i had to be sure to able to reschedule all my sleep patterns so it wouldn't. Hence I don't lie about sleeping not because I think no one else should either but because it makes the game less fun for me. So I don't put on an unatural act about RL impacting on my game, but I also post about it(RL as scum) as scum.(I don't like getting lynched for no good 'mafia related reason' as town or scum, so as both I truthfully speak up if "I was recently asleep you twits." ) That the game has rich variety of 'metas' where I wont lie about my sleep but BH has zero qualms lying about his dinner is not for me any problem at all. That adds richness variety and (mild) spice to the game. It also needs some chilli peppers and curry. I am pretty sure no one ever found playing game where BH has pictures of his dinner unpleasant, now if you had claimed to be eating Brussel sprouts then that would have been different. Indeed if you want to draw line on behaviour it really ought be on what acceptable, (not unfun for others) that people do as town. Scum get to do all that, its kind of the point, so what you wont do as scum is not question for me, its what you wont [*or dont*] do as town. TLDR: Idi amin, maiden aunt, sheep, gum boots, unatural act. + Show Spoiler + while matching a TLDR that has Hitler in it is hard, but I tried, I included sheep and unatural act. BTW oops I think I did post fake pictures of BHs dinner and claimed it as mine (or something like that) when I was scum. My bad. Apparently its sleep i wont lie about. Sleep is important and not to be trifled with. On April 14 2014 13:33 AxleGreaser wrote: It worked for you, when you started taking the game too seriously. If I ever get angry (and stay that way) about the game I am sure I will take a break for a while, and yes that is ez. However (so as to not just sweep what I don't like under the carpet) Arranging things so fewer people have to take shorter breaks less often is not so ez. (esp the ones that take permanent breaks.) Also that not the only reason people take breaks sometimes permanent ones.. If anything my biggest problem is people who don't seem to know when _they_ ought take a break. Reading their bile and drivel (they post as town, and then having to decide, yep all that bleh... its a towny having an extended hissy fit instead of taking a break.) in the thread is not actually what I call fun. I am not angry, that is not fun. In say LVIII scum stomped town, and lots of the "blame" for the crap in the thread came from, was enhanced by or the flames were fanned by scum.... bravo... They (as is their job) very effectively exploited the recent towny paradigm of shitting up threads as town, they did it as scum and got away with it. As I recall they shitted it up so much Marv raged out, and if a guy as successful as Marv can be raged out of game, then we are not talking small amounts of shitting up the thread being mistaken as plausible town play... Trouble is when town not scum regularly behaves in such way that so many people take breaks you get lonely. Then its not ez. If you are perfectly happy with how many people currently 'flip the game the finger and find they have better ways to spend their life' then its still easy I suppose. There will always be a never ending stream of newbies to haze I suppose. I am not angry. I have not read a game of mafia for a while where I thought "hey yeah, I really wish was in that game, this thread is so much fun to read I just want to be part of the fun....." usually I just think OMG I am glad I don't actually have to read that guys posts and decide if he really is (in RL) that X,Y,or Z, or is he faking being like that as scum to shit it up, or is he some deluded towny who thinks faking being like that is helping town. That probably goes double for the last champions game... where they lynched my strongest town read... ( i was actually rather relieved when I found at least some of the people, lynching my best town read, for BS, were scum, its their job. If they'd all been town, I might have been angry for a little while.) TLDR: game bleh, hissy fit, not angry, just not fun. BS. On April 14 2014 13:49 WaveofShadow wrote: We need another Shadow game....that one was pretty solid and as far as I remember, like 95% drama-free. On April 14 2014 13:55 DarthPunk wrote: If it isn't fun for you don't play. We should not censor people's play or what they do in order to fulfill their win condition. Moderating play style based on what is appropriate/ not appropriate is purely subjective. People should not rage quit the game. People should not cheat. People should always try their best to play to their win condition. These are objective standards that we can all agree with. Anything further than that becomes subjective. If you follow all of those things I am sure you will rarely get into problems with the ban list. AS for behaviour. That is part of the game. The game is argumentative and adversarial by nature. Abuse is a tool in the mafia players arsenal and can be used to discredit the person you are arguing against, their argument or both. It can also be used to make them doubt themselves and their reads. Matyring and raging are legitimate tactics as scum because it emulates a natural town reaction to being falsely accused. They are also a natural and expected reaction from wrongfully being called a liar repeatedly as town. If people don't like the adversarial nature of the game, don't like the way the game has evolved etc. then the simple answer is to take a break. If that break is permanent then that is fine. If you don't find the game fun you should not play it. But it is my belief that the game is the way it is by it's very nature. The meta on TL has caused mafia to be played at a very high level, much higher than on various other sites I have played on and what we are discovering is the natural progression of the game of mafia. Once again, we cannot change the nature of how to play mafia, nor should we try to. If it ceases to be a game some people enjoy playing that is fine. Stop playing. On April 14 2014 13:57 AxleGreaser wrote: [deletia button itis] @Gonzaw you appear to addressing a non existent (to my knowledge) question (actually maybe not, I think i misread you sorry) I am pretty sure I have not seen anyone complain about the plays of anyone that was scum. Even after LVIII I dont recall people saying 'gee wiz scum should not do that'. I for instance cant recall a single tactic that a scum player used in any game I played in that troubled me. (well only one and only a little... and I think I might have been wrong to be troubled, and i suppose I was only troubled in that I thought perhaps no towny should do that... and no towny did. Hardest part was working do townies do that in this game(I was pretty sure I wouldn't as it would not be constructive).) In games I watched I don't recall a single scum tactic (that wasn't modkilled outright) that I had problem with. On April 14 2014 14:19 AxleGreaser wrote: In the recent game of champions, large swathes of champions all knew the way they played mafia on their site was best... or claimed to. (as some part of some high level tactic where townies pissing everyone else resulted in scum stomping them ....) Not sure Id characterise a number of the games on TL of late as 'very high level'. perhaps I am just stupid and dont even understand the game you guys are playing. On April 14 2014 14:31 AxleGreaser wrote: I agree I have read number of games in a number of places that I would not even characterise as being the game of 'mafia', that is different to regarding a number of recent games on TL as very high level. (also I am pretty sure at least some people in the last champions games would rate different games when compared with you, and different games when compared with me, as being high level.(nio surpises their own sites and styles of play would be favoured...)) I have read games on TL that were of high level and good to read and I wished I had played in them, not so much lately. (and that is both on the level of intellectual content(scum hunting) , would be fun to be in, as separate things ) Its cool, as I said I am not angry, bored, uninterested, not entertained, not seeing a place where fun is being had either by the people playing the game or by me if I was there, those, or things like them I am. If that changes I remember how to in, if it changes the other way, I also know where the active games list thread is. Metas evolve perhaps in few years TLs meta will evolve to place where the game would be fun... As for not liking adversarial.... that'll be the day... Its pissing in my pocket that annoys me. (note thats not what your doing, but its what annoys me when townies do that in game.) | ||
|
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On April 14 2014 13:57 AxleGreaser wrote: [deletia button itis] @Gonzaw you appear to addressing a non existent (to my knowledge) question (actually maybe not, I think i misread you sorry) I am pretty sure I have not seen anyone complain about the plays of anyone that was scum. Even after LVIII I dont recall people saying 'gee wiz scum should not do that'. I for instance cant recall a single tactic that a scum player used in any game I played in that troubled me. (well only one and only a little... and I think I might have been wrong to be troubled, and i suppose I was only troubled in that I thought perhaps no towny should do that... and no towny did. Hardest part was working do townies do that in this game(I was pretty sure I wouldn't as it would not be constructive).) In games I watched I don't recall a single scum tactic (that wasn't modkilled outright) that I had problem with. I remember a "woe is me" play from BH that felt similar some time ago (I believe it's even in the Awards thread). There are also tiny bits here and there from some players at times. I felt similar to VE's play in the previous Shadow game, but he was town. But if he was scum or town it wouldn't have mattered until he flipped. And well, if he flips, then it's not a problem anymore is it? The problem comes in that time where that player's alignment is unknown, and it could be anything, either town or scum. | ||
|
thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
| ||
|
AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On April 14 2014 17:22 thrawn2112 wrote: u guys are making it way too complicated. a bunch of people post words. some of the people are mafia. you try to figure out who is who. be a reasonably decent human being if that's what you like doing I am pretty sure I am not overcomplicating anything. The question, Darth raises, of how I ought behave so as not to get in trouble with the ban list is indeed pretty simple.+ Show Spoiler + On April 14 2014 13:55 DarthPunk wrote: As I was never concerned with whether or not I would get into problems with the ban list, this is for me a non issue.If you follow all of those things I am sure you will rarely get into problems with the ban list. To go further and say, The question of how I ought behave in game is also relatively straight forward, as you say. So yeah, as I like to behave as a reasonable human being, I also try to practice behaving like a reasonable human being in the game. That is simple too. The not so simple question that I have been considering is not about how I would play in game. Darth suggests On April 14 2014 13:55 DarthPunk wrote: People should not rage quit the game. People should not cheat. People should always try their best to play to their win condition. These are objective standards that we can all agree with. Anything further than that becomes subjective. Really these are objective standards? The model OP says "Play to win. This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing." I would love to hear what the objective interpretation of "does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing." means or does it in Darths view mean this is an 'aspirational goal' + Show Spoiler + AKA A thing we say to keep the rubes happy but we all know is just BS It is perfectly true and a mother hood statement that "behaviour is part of the game" if however it is objectively true that every possible behaviour is part of the game then the statement in the model OP is objectively BS. + Show Spoiler [soggy boots] + On April 14 2014 13:55 DarthPunk wrote: Abuse is a tool in the mafia players arsenal and can be used to discredit the person you are arguing against, their argument or both. It can also be used to make them doubt themselves and their reads. Matyring and raging are legitimate tactics as scum because it emulates a natural town reaction to being falsely accused. They are also a natural and expected reaction from wrongfully being called a liar repeatedly as town. If people don't like the adversarial nature of the game, don't like the way the game has evolved etc. then the simple answer is to take a break. Indeed if people don't like playing an adversarial game this is not the game for them, accusing other people who are often townies of being scum in order to find out if they actually are scum(the core of most scum hunting) is by its very nature, adversarial. The adversarial nature of the game, is one of the best bits about the game, for me. The wide variety of legitimate tactics that involve a range of psychological manipulations, as town or scum, is also part of the game. Many things are part of the game. Darths contention is the current rules are objective and any proposed changes are not... and I think he skipped the step where subjectivity was shown to be an inherently bad idea.... but even if it is, the current rules+ Show Spoiler + and by the current rules I mean either what Darth says they mean or what the Model Op actually says Note all forum bans on all internet forums, that I am aware of, are subjective judgements, that is kind of the nature of the beast of bans. Claiming to have set of objective criteria is BS. 2P2 for instance has a rule and spirit of the rules where players should not 'angle shoot' the rules... AKA try to exploit the subjective loopholes in the game for gain. (They (angles that can be shot) exist and mainly I will not discuss where I think they are.) One thing players should not do is try to game the host... and it would be nice if players on TL stopped trying to do that as it adds nothing to the game. I know it provides entertainment value for some players, to try and get host to fuck up and expose information, but if you want to play a game with the host wait until they /in as a player...Ok? There also exist certain 'technical skills' that I am aware of that can be exploited to game the current rules to push them down a slippery slope, The TL rule "encryption: just dont do it." is also specifically vague, and in that case I have considered the situation and I regard it as a very good idea not to make that rule more explicit and objective. However I suppose one thing is true, things are being overly complicated, "TL mafia" is played exactly like "TL mafia" is. Whether or not it is played exactly like the model Op says is not actually all that important. "TL mafia" is played exactly like "TL mafia" is. People either type /in or they dont We're done. Lately I have not found single game where typing /in seemed like winning move at this time. Lately I have also decided that putting up game and hosting did not seem like winning move at this time. Lately I have also noticed that significant number of the people I would have liked to play mafia with also have not typed /in. I wondered if there was something that I could do about that (but its complicated to decide what), Lately I have decided not so much. | ||
|
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Anybody that wants heavy shit, sign up for this game. But for the rest of the games, we play all civil and nice and drinking tea with cookies and grilled cheese sandwiches. | ||
|
AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On April 15 2014 07:08 gonzaw wrote: Maybe we could include a "Battle Royale" mafia game, where everything (I mean EVERYTHING) is permitted. Is someone black? Feel free to make any racist remark at him you want. Did someone's mother die? Feel free to tell him how your boner choked her to death. Is someone more prone to ragequitting? Feel free to insult him since D1 until he decides to throw himself off a bridge. Now you might be surprised... but me... I might actually sign up for that... it might not actually be fair though.... + Show Spoiler + My mother, is in fact RL dead. + Show Spoiler + (has been for while so you necros can calm down) In that game... If someone tells me their boner choked her to death, I would suggest that they get a blood test pronto as they appear to be unaware what she died of.... The bottom of the barrel is indeed very deep, and I have seen things crawling around in the murk below the depths even I have plumbed. and don't get me started on the gerbils... the more I think about that the more we might need to take the game off site... as there will be some subjective limit on what the actual TL mods will allow even with our present arrangements. On April 15 2014 07:08 gonzaw wrote: Anybody that wants heavy shit, sign up for this game. But for the rest of the games, we play all civil and nice and drinking tea with cookies and grilled cheese sandwiches. I think just agreeing that being relatively civil and figuratively 'keeping it in your pants' or 'in the game and about the game' would be sufficient or at least go some distance to alleviate many peoples problems with most games. The current situation where it is explicitly, publicly, and vociferously endorsed that nope every subjective behaviour(according to Darth), including our above hypothetical exchange is in bounds in all games that every one plays, and if you don't like that, don't play(fuck off/forever if required AKA FOAD.) and play on forum where the noobs play because we play on very high level here and saying "I fucked your dead mother to death, I found her death rattle as she struggle to breathe... invigorating, is a critical part of my very high level scum hunting. BTW... if I just crossed subjective TL line... by even discussing what might be said in game with no subjective bounds on behaviour... oops. Sorry. Oh and while cookies and grilled cheese sandwiches should not be compulsory parts of games they are nice additions. Edit: Oh and skip thinks bones (not boners) should be in some games too. | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
I think my philosophy is pretty much perfect: use everything within the rules to win. The rules don't let you go around yelling about racist stuff or boner-choking, for reasons both related to TL Mafia rules and Teamliquid rules. However, if I claim my grandfather died so I'm busy at his funeral, and you buy it, that should be totally allowed. If I say I swear on my mother's grave or whatever, it doesn't matter whether my mother is dead or not. I do anything necessary within the rules to win, and I also ignore anyone's IRL excuses. Does this mean I always claim IRL reasons? no, of course not. People know that I'd sell my sister into slavery to win a game of mafia so when I say "I'm sorry, I am busy at work" nobody believes me. That being said, sometimes I still managed to pull off a sob story or two. In any case, this originated with a guy saying "I swear on my life I'm not scum" and as I said before, the problem isn't that he did it as town, it's that he doesn't do it as scum. I'm not saying we need to talk about choking each other with penises. We just need to be willing to do things as scum that we are already willing to do as town. | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
I hate cheaters like Toadand Fool and Fool; You are a cheater. You don't get to tell me i am facing "maybe a perma ban". Yeah you fucker. You don't get to say that to me even if i deserved it, so suck it. thanks. (and stop cheating) | ||
|
AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On April 15 2014 09:01 Blazinghand wrote: I'm not even sure what you guys are talking about. Nobody wants to do a Battle Royale mafia game or run around breaking TL rules. What we're talking about here isn't even in the same league as that. It would be like two people discussing whether it's worth having a touchscreen or not on a laptop and someone comes in talking about how the best part of a laptop is dipping in in chocolate sauce and licking it. I think my philosophy is pretty much perfect: use everything within the rules to win. The rules don't let you go around yelling about racist stuff or boner-choking, for reasons both related to TL Mafia rules and Teamliquid rules. However, if I claim my grandfather died so I'm busy at his funeral, and you buy it, that should be totally allowed. If I say I swear on my mother's grave or whatever, it doesn't matter whether my mother is dead or not. I do anything necessary within the rules to win, and I also ignore anyone's IRL excuses. Does this mean I always claim IRL reasons? no, of course not. People know that I'd sell my sister into slavery to win a game of mafia so when I say "I'm sorry, I am busy at work" nobody believes me. That being said, sometimes I still managed to pull off a sob story or two. In any case, this originated with a guy saying "I swear on my life I'm not scum" and as I said before, the problem isn't that he did it as town, it's that he doesn't do it as scum. I'm not saying we need to talk about choking each other with penises. We just need to be willing to do things as scum that we are already willing to do as town. There are not and should be no subjective limits on in game behaviour, is being discussed. As objectively doing that would indeed bump up against the subjective limits that would in the end be imposed by TL mods, it is indeed on the table. The limits on mafia are claimed to all be objective adding subjective ones is claimed to be inherently bad. I am also not sure what you are talking about as I am not and never have been talking about anything you do when you play. Zero of my (library of private exemplar posts) of what I would have disallowed if I had decided to host a game were posts you made. (Note: That was my plan for how to make subjective judgements both reliably and self consistently. By having a private library of prior examples of what was in and out of bounds, and comparing new in game examples to those. It was starting to build that library that led me to notice the prevalence of posts that were not as I saw it about the game but were just people being dicks.) So what you would and wouldn't do is not highly relevant to anything I have said. + Show Spoiler + There is in fact one play you once pulled where I thought errmmmm... really what is BH doing. I wont discuss that in thread as it later appeared to be a gambit you used to find scum, that I now also could piggy back reads from. I still think its an 'unwise play' but its entirely possible you don't know how close it was to doing something that is largely indistinguishable from it, but would have been to me, + Show Spoiler + I am certain not to any objective standard, What I am talking about did not start with someone swearing on their life that they were not scum. That I am largely ignoring as a non issue. | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
Foolishness. I made a bad boo-boo and yelled things to gumshoe drunk. You told me "if you don't stop you ar gonna face a perma ban on TL". Well guess fucking what. No! I won't. Or... then give it to me. But man, you. you don't get to tell me that. GMarshal or Greymist etc... people who are reasonable, they can tell me what to do. You can't. You can go fuck yourself because you are a cheater. Thank you. You cheated with Toad on Dr.Who mafia and you can't deny it. So, if you got something to say to me, take it to mods, because you are a cheater. You are not allowed to talk to me like you did. Thanks. So, apologize, or give me the perma ban right here right now. Go man! Be a man, let's see your balls. A cheater can't tell me what to do and if he does... just..... rofl | ||
|
prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
| ||
|
prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
wahtever ignore me i have no idea and this is all very confusing | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On April 15 2014 10:11 Blazinghand wrote: rayn do you really think anything positive for us will come of this hey i am the guy taking all the bans and shit anyways so... t_T what do you mean? should i just suck on people's dick's like everyone else? am i wrong? what are you saying? are you saying "bury it shhhh........"? what? | ||
|
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On April 15 2014 10:08 Blazinghand wrote: I feel like I never actually understand what Axle is talking about. I'll give a tl;dr (which I think he said...maybe?) The TL mafia "rules" are subjective themselves. The host are the dudes that enforce them, but the hosts are humans and not superontological beings with a divine moral compass. Hosts can get stuff wrong, hosts can get stuff right. Either way, those are the "rules" you speak of, and the ones you try so much to "circumvent" to try and win the game. But should you? Who says those subjective rules the hosts posted, or maybe most importantly, the rules they didn't post, are the correct ones? I mean, you know not everything is all nice and dandy, considering what happens in the Ban thread every 10 seconds. The rules are static and objective, yet ambiguous at best, or dinamic, changing, relative and subjective at worst (where hosts can do what they like with them). So where is the precise set of rules that tells you how you ought to or you ought not to play mafia? I think this might be part of a higher order of things. Mafia is a game that relies on human interaction and deception. Based on that phrase alone, there should be a minimal set of maxims or something that, based on your own morality and ethics, decide how one should and shouldn't play like. But I believe it might go beyond the rules, specially something so static as "This is forbidden 100% of the time in every single scenario" or stuff like that. So, what do we know? I dunno, but like Axle said, we can start by figuring out how we would act OUTSIDE a mafia game, and then, step by step, incorporate these new notions into our behaviour: -It's a competition -You are supposed to manipulate and deceive people -It's a game where everybody should have fun (or be able to) So, do you start with a minimal set, and expand or contract it when you add those notions? Or does the whole set instantly materialize in your mind when you read all those notions at once? Again, I am not sure. But in both of those cases, it is good to be able to analyze which option ocurred, and why it ocurred to you. Anyways, I'm kind of babbling... ....DID YOU SEE GAME OF THRONES YESTERDAY? OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
rofl. | ||
|
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On April 15 2014 10:34 gonzaw wrote: So, I'm interested in this drama here. What is this ban and stuff that got you angry rayn? Is there a link to a post in the Ban thread or something? nono. my bans are deserved. that's not the point. the point is certain people get away with all kinds of shit and cheating for free. that's bad. and people sit on those people's dicks and worship them. but now, for example. foolishness can come and tell me how bad of a person i am. i want him to fucking post here and go1v1. In public. so we can see who is a good guy and who is a bad guy. (i am not a good guy but i outplay a cheater 100/0 anyday)... | ||
|
Oberyn
United Kingdom508 Posts
On April 15 2014 10:30 gonzaw wrote: ....DID YOU SEE GAME OF THRONES YESTERDAY? OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG So good. But I need more screen time. | ||
|
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
##Vote: Foolishness Follow the cop! | ||
|
prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On April 15 2014 10:39 prplhz wrote: what did foolishness even do that was cheating and that he got away with? He cheated with Toad in Dr Who.. | ||
|
prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On April 15 2014 10:41 prplhz wrote: he wasn't even in dr who? yeah, that's why he cheated. he gave a read in that game. | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On March 30 2014 15:32 Toadesstern wrote: sup 8am, just dropped foolishness off at the airport and I haven't slept yet so I'll do that after this post. Anyways important thing being that we both thought this should be lynched asap [....] | ||
|
kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On April 15 2014 10:52 kitaman27 wrote: A bad read on top of that. Not surprised to be honest. How does the quality of the read have to do with anything? | ||
|
kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
Why do you spew some shit and not take a stance? | ||
|
kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
easy question. I know what the rules say. They say "don't discuss ongoing games with people who are not in the game." | ||
|
Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
suck suck.. | ||
|
justanothertownie
16319 Posts
On April 15 2014 10:56 raynpelikoneet wrote: cheating or not? easy question. I know what the rules say. They say "don't discuss ongoing games with people who are not in the game." I think the problem here is that Toad stated in the game that Foolishness agreed with him. Less that they talked about the game. | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
and that's why i don't play anymore.. bleh.. fucking ridiculous. EDIT: not responding to you JAT. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
Foolishness is not a mod AFAIK so he can't threaten you with perma bans. And if he did that that is a huge ego trip on his part. Just chill out man. Take a breather and hopefully we can catch some scum together in a future game. Or maybe I will just play with you on VS. Who knows. | ||
|
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Can we have the cookies and cheese sandwiches now? | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:01 justanothertownie wrote: I think the problem here is that Toad stated in the game that Foolishness agreed with him. Less that they talked about the game. The problem here is that they intentionally broke the rules and noone gives a fuck. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:01 justanothertownie wrote: I think the problem here is that Toad stated in the game that Foolishness agreed with him. Less that they talked about the game. Nah both are wrong. Shouldn't talk about the game to such an extent that you can come up with reads together. CERTAINLY shouldn't post dual reads in the fucking thread. | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
Like. Do you think this is the only time? | ||
|
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
| ||
|
justanothertownie
16319 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:07 raynpelikoneet wrote: The problem here is that they intentionally broke the rules and noone gives a fuck. You have a point but I think you would get much more support if you wouldn't get so fucking mad. Stay calm and people will listen to you. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:09 raynpelikoneet wrote: wow DP you would be mad if you just knew..... Like. Do you think this is the only time? Huh? No I am not in the loop at all. | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:10 gonzaw wrote: Considering people like gumshoe or whatever were almost going to get banned for just posting "I swear on my life I am town" (as town), I don't see why Foo and Toad can't get banned for that What gumshoe said was never the problem. The problem was that steveling claimed scum after that (because of it). If mafia lost that game there would be a big fucking shoutout about it, but, i was drunk and ragequited after Koshi "quit" the game (i was so fucking pissed off because of it). So it was not like "what gumshoe did affected nothing". That's what people sell here, take a look and see what actually happened. duh.. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:10 gonzaw wrote: Considering people like gumshoe or whatever were almost going to get banned for just posting "I swear on my life I am town" (as town), I don't see why Foo and Toad can't get banned for that He was never getting banned for that. | ||
|
prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
marv told me to lynch Vivax "no matter what on D1". at least i was actually set on that already, but i hated the game every moment after that. | ||
|
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Oh well | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:16 raynpelikoneet wrote: marv told me to lynch Vivax "no matter what on D1". at least i was actually set on that already, but i hated the game every moment after that. What? was marv in the game? | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
no, that's the fucking point.. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
| ||
|
prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
| ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
| ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:18 prplhz wrote: so marv should be banned? or? Clearly | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:18 DarthPunk wrote: OK well that is fucked up dude. Are people on TL fucking cheating? If so THAT is a major fucking problem. Why do you think i quit? I am not some random dude who just whines.. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
| ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:19 raynpelikoneet wrote: Why do you think i quit? I am not some random dude who just whines.. I didn't know any of this stuff. What exactly happened with marv? | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:20 DarthPunk wrote: If people are cheating. That is a major problem. If people are cheating and are getting away with it that is an even bigger problem. I will not play with cheaters. well i won't either. that's why i quit. | ||
|
prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:21 DarthPunk wrote: I didn't know any of this stuff. What exactly happened with marv? In 2 games he told me to lynch someone in PM's, no warning. I had already set lynches on those people so "it didn't matter". but at least i didn't go in thread and tell "YOLO THIS GUY TOLD ME THIS IS A GOOD TARGET!!!" | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:21 prplhz wrote: i'm still confused as to who is supposed to be cheating. talking about the game with other people has never been a problem before. toad name dropping fool to get traction for whatever he was pushing is poor style but whatever really. no that is cheating. Talking about the game after you are both dead is fine. Talking about things like ' man you played really well that game' or 'haha I was scum' is borderline. Someone not in the game giving reads and instructions is fucking cheating. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:23 raynpelikoneet wrote: In 2 games he told me to lynch someone in PM's, no warning. I had already set lynches on those people so "it didn't matter". but at least i didn't go in thread and tell "YOLO THIS GUY TOLD ME THIS IS A GOOD TARGET!!!" And he was not in the game? or dead? and you were alive in the game? Man that is fucked up. How do I know he didn't tell LSB to shoot me at lylo in Vengeful now? | ||
|
prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:25 DarthPunk wrote: And he was not in the game? or dead? and you were alive in the game? Man that is fucked up. How do I know he didn't tell LSB to shoot me at lylo in Vengeful now? It was in Titanic III and in Really Small mafia. You know... how much i wanted to fucking quit on D1... At least i made the case on Vivax before that so "i can be proud of my lynch"., | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:28 prplhz wrote: it should really be in the OP if it's cheating. Explain to me how someone out of the game telling someone in the game who to lynch is not cheating? | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
Rayn can you post the pm's in the thread? | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
Titanic III was my best game ever. I fucking fucked scum! 100-0! And now it's rigged. | ||
|
prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
and it's not in the OP. if it's cheating it should be in the OP so people can know that it's cheating. if there's one thing mafia taught me it is that people disagree on fucking everything all the time and they'll disagree on whether or not this is cheating as well until we put it in the OP. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:31 DarthPunk wrote: And if marv did it in Titanic 3 he had the fucking obs qt in that game. Which is really bad. Rayn can you post the pm's in the thread? [23:26] Session Ident: marvellosity (QuakeNet, raynpelikoneet) (webchat@187.225.208.46.dyn.plus.net) [23:26] <marvellosity> lynch of justice. 01[23:26] <raynpelikoneet> yes [23:27] <marvellosity> i am pleased that town does my bidding even when i do not play 01[23:27] <raynpelikoneet> haha 01[23:28] <raynpelikoneet> now i got 23h to figure out another scum then i can die in pieces [23:28] <marvellosity> :> [23:28] <marvellosity> game should be kinda ez now this would be D1 Titanic III just after i made a case on Vivax. | ||
|
prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
| ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
I dare someone to fucking say that is not cheating. | ||
|
prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:36 DarthPunk wrote: It's clearly cheating. I doubt one person would think otherwise. well i do. that's one. and like i told you, this issue has been up before and people didn't have any problems with it back then. not going to name anyone because i don't remember, it was when i just started inhere. i'm also pretty sure toad doesn't think talking to people outside the game is cheating. since he talked to fool and straght up admitted it. that's two. two persons so far. i'm sure there are more. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
| ||
|
prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
| ||
|
prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:39 prplhz wrote: i don't really have an opinion on whether or not it should be considered cheating to talk to someone outside the game about the game. i'm just saying that i didn't think it was cheating simply from what i've seen people say about it so far on this forum. ?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!? like this??? what the fuck? | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
Just this. This is the problem. People don't give a fuck.... ugh.. | ||
|
prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:42 prplhz wrote: do you want me to ask "what do you mean?" or what? no, i don't. w/e | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
Cheating. 100% He is not in the game. He should not provide reads. He had fucking heaps of additional information revealed due to having obs qt and god knows who else he spoke to. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
People don't give a fuck unless they are involved. Ever. Again DP, it had nothing to do with the result of the game. but fair? yeah.. you see.. | ||
|
prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
seriously all this theatrics shit i'm not a cheater by any measure. i never talked to anyone outside the game about the game. ever. the closest thing i have been to cheating was asking someone for their alignment after i was dead. i have no idea what your problem with me is. but apparently it doesn't matter because you'd rather act like indignant all the time. you're just as bad as coag sometimes. i guess we can't have a conversation because you guys keep getting drunk and ragequitting and being theatrical. don't know why people can't just play mafia instead of all this shit all the time. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:48 raynpelikoneet wrote: Yeah well now you see what's the difference when it has to do with a game you were in... Yeah I agree with you. | ||
|
prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:48 prplhz wrote: seriously all this theatrics shit i'm not a cheater by any measure. i never talked to anyone outside the game about the game. ever. the closest thing i have been to cheating was asking someone for their alignment after i was dead. i have no idea what your problem with me is. but apparently it doesn't matter because you'd rather act like indignant all the time. you're just as bad as coag sometimes. i guess we can't have a conversation because you guys keep getting drunk and ragequitting and being theatrical. don't know why people can't just play mafia instead of all this shit all the time. I'm sorry if i came out that way. I have no problem with you. In fact i think you are one of the most fair people on TL (despite that one game grr.... ^^). sorry i didn't mean to be a dick to you. maybe i misunderstood. | ||
|
Grackaroni
United States9846 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
i try not to, but i am. I just hate cheaters. | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:51 prplhz wrote: dunno how you just concluded that no one gives a fuck. I did because noone gives a fuck. rofl ^^ | ||
|
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
I agree, this is cheating, both from Fool and Toad and marv. Should this go back to the Ban thread? Anyways, I guess bans are in place in this case. More info from every party should be posted in that thread. Do you have more PMs from marv rayn? From those other games? From that IRC topic you posted it wasn't that clear what marv's intentions were (though it was still cheating) From what I gather, this is what happened: Toad & Foo: Either nobody noticed it, or people noticed it and nobody paid attention. Rayn did pay attention, but apparently never said anything until now? If you haven't talked about this before rayn, then your rage at "TL Mafia not caring" is unfounded, in the sense that....well, if the community doesn't know what is happening, then how can they do anything about it? (for instance I didn't play nor read Dr Who 2 so I have no idea what happened there). Still, the fact that nobody noticed that breach of the rules, not even hosts or co-hosts, does indicate some kind of apathy for that kind of cheating. Either nobody really cared about it since it wasn't that much of a deal (until now), thus they were like "desentisized" to it in a way, or maybe it's like you said, and "some people are beyond the rules". Either way, I don't think it's a 9/11 conspiracy, rather than a general attitude in the community that needs to be addressed and made clear (that it is in fact cheating and such situations should be noticed, notified, and dealt with accordingly) marv: Did you mention this before at any time as well? Because it seems that you haven't posted the PMs and chat with marv until now. If so, well, you could have posted something before getting all hulk on us Make a clear statement about exactly what marv posted every time, with a transcript of the PMs. The PMs are important too, because we can't know if marv was the only infractor here, "telling" you who to lynch, or if it was a back and forth like the case with Foo and Toad (in which case you are to blame as well rayn). We need more info, and more chiming in from other people and discuss and shit. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
| ||
|
Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
I didn't particularly care because I care little about anything really I mean come now I am willing to be viewed as insane and then go play video mafia u know? Then I act insane there too I don't care about much | ||
|
prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
EDIT: omfg whatever roflm, dsahnm | ||
|
Grackaroni
United States9846 Posts
| ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
If Toad was scum and was lying about what Foolishness said on hopeless, would you still have a problem with it? What if Toad linked a post from a game on another forum where hopeless played; in that post, the writer has detailed analysis on Hopeless which, applied to this game, makes a strong case for Hopeless as scum? | ||
|
Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
Anyway this will end the same way this discussion always did in the past - it's absolutely unenforcable either way so the only thing a rule against it could realistically accomplish is that toad will stop posting about it in thread. Granted, that's a worthwile goal too. | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
| ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
I felt that it was borderline ok to talk about stuff not directly about the game. Such as: Oh it was really fun playing with you, why do people always think I am scummy. But talking about or directing lynches when you have access to the obs qt is fucking cheating. | ||
|
Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: wtf back and forth? rofl EDIT: omfg whatever roflm, dsahnm Shlagnm, mmumpuumpanga zisuku chian dniiniou shaaan. Salaam bleor schalahazaan kumma zoon faunoo. Magic what is thiang yoyoyoyouuuuuy lll niiihaoo Ichinisanjigo | ||
|
Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: omfg whatever roflm, dsahnm On April 15 2014 12:04 Amiko wrote: Rayn I think I disagree with you but I'd like to get a better sense of what you're saying. QED | ||
|
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On April 15 2014 11:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: wtf back and forth? rofl EDIT: omfg whatever roflm, dsahnm Well, you are going against Toad and Fool for "discussing" the game with someone outside of it. Your accusation against marv, is based on a situation where there was a discussion of the game with someone outside of it. We have to make sure the Toad/Foo situation isn't the same as the rayn/marv situation. If not why get angry and try to ban and spacefuck Toad, but not yourself? I am a 3rd party here, I don't know anything about any of this, so I can't make preemptive calls on stuff that hastily, specially with such a "fragile" issue like this. But calm down dude, post the PMs, and let's talk about this. We also need to wait for marv's version of it, but that wouldn't matter much if the PMs are posted. Let's not crucify people yet. I get the feeling, that maybe this is such a "big" deal now because it surfaced like this. Toad openly posted that Foo told him who to lynch and they discussed it. If Toad didn't do so, then nobody would have noticed. It seems at least Toad didn't think he was blatantly cheating (and did it in ignorance). Can't say about Foo because we don't have enough info (and marv I guess). Seems to me it's likely more of these situations have happened before, but because people (at least most of them) just were ignorant or didn't care about it, they never surfaced so we never heard about them. | ||
|
Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
and i don't give a fuck. i just quit. ^^ | ||
|
Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
YESS YES! | ||
|
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On April 15 2014 12:14 raynpelikoneet wrote: yeah gonzaw. i am going against a brick dicksucking wall. and i don't give a fuck. i just quit. ^^ ok Know that we are going to have biscuits in a few moments, you'll miss them | ||
|
Amiko
United States1725 Posts
In the Dr. Who game, at one point Hopeless received a PM (saying he saw someone) make a night visit. Hopeless claimed this. Town realized that was inconsistent and called him out. Mods then realized they had erred and sent Hopeless a corrected PM (he saw no one). Hopeless claimed the correction and said it was mod error (it was). If hopeless was scum and was caught in an inconsistency, he could have lied about mod error as a way to explain the inconsistency. Here it was an innocent mistake and not his fault. Although it's kind of lame to let someone claim mod error, I think it should be permitted precisely because it can be innocent. It doesn't seem substantially different to me that making a claim like "I read the wrong PM" or "I misread the PM" or whatever. For you, the argument that Foolish read him as scum was compelling. For most of the rest of the town, it was a read that was barely explained by a player who wasn't even in the game, that may not have ever existed in the first place. When hopeless did eventually get (mis)lynched, I don't feel it was substantially related to Toad's comment on Foolishness. I don't know, I think ultimately town decides whether it wants to believe something or not, and that's the core of mafia anyway. As long as we avoid mod comments, the game is usually fine as long as people aren't overly rude. sorry if the game bummed you out rayn | ||
|
Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
ROFL!! | ||
|
Grackaroni
United States9846 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
| ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
| ||
|
Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
On April 15 2014 12:18 Grackaroni wrote: Have you been drinking Alaka? I am both teetotal and a U2 listener in other words I watched alcohol ruin one side of my family and drugs (hardcore drugs) another, and the last side be wealthy and support the others... So yeah BUT I HAZ DIS GOLLUM | ||
|
Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
On April 15 2014 12:20 raynpelikoneet wrote: I am just waiting for Foolishness to tell me if it's in his opinion fair to "maybe request a perma ban on TL" for me. U would be Stimey d okmg fish 2.0 Like 15 people would fight 4 your ability ot remain And if u were banned I think everyone would find it amusing what I would do | ||
|
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Dunno how we should proceed with this though. Waiting for stuff to happen is the safest option. But well...if nobody shows up then like...nothing will happen. Either way, bans seem appropriate for these situations. Still we need some more general awareness of these issues, so it's not just a "ban dude, forget about it" situation, if not it'll keep happening. This specific rule is indeed "unenforceable", and it's harder for stuff like this to surface. We need to increase awareness to: 1)Any time you talk with someone outside the game, pay attention to this kind of stuff. Don't spout anything that comes from your mouth just because, which may mean you'll talk sensitive info of the game with that someone else. Talk responsibly 2)It should be imperative to report any kind of these issues as well. Hopefully, just by making people aware of (1) would be enough for people to not do it, and hopefully people are good enough people to not purposefully cheat even when they know (1). Still, people should keep an eye out for this stuff. If someone is trying to tell you something about the game, first of all tell him to shut up about ongoing games (this would deter some people from randomly talking about games). If he still presses on, then it becomes clear it's purposeful so it should be noted in the Ban thread to be dealt with. Still, these are just ideas I have, we can handle it better I suppose. Also rayn don't leave ;_; And so he spoke, and so he spoke. That mod of TL Mafia, But now Rayn weep o'er his forum, with no one there to hear. Yes now Rayn weep o'er his forum, and not a soul to hear | ||
|
syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
Although you can reasonably interpret that rule to mean that there is to be no outside discussion whatsoever, it hasn't traditionally meant that you can not casually discuss your reads with someone outside the game, as long as this person does not have access to any additional information. Newbie games even essentially teach players that it's fine to have outsiders coaching you and these coaches do have access to additional information. From my experience this is how other mafia forums view the issue as well. Regardless, some of you seem to take this game a bit too seriously. Discussing your read with a friend (who isn't reading obs or discussing the game with anyone else) isn't going to ruin the game for anyone, as long as it's still you playing the game and no one else is essentially dictating what you do. Games are won through effort and an observer casually reading something is unlikely to have any meaningful impact on the game. | ||
|
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
It may not matter when the dude doing the discussion is scum (since he already has all the "info" basically), but when he's town, I dunno, stuff can change. It depends on the situation I guess, but better to try and avoid getting into such situations in the first place. There may be times where it might be hard to ignore, like if your mom comes passing by and tells you "Pff, WoS is obviously scum son!" or something, but for the rest of the "common" situations (between players of this very forum), this kind of talk can be avoided. I feel the thing with coaching is different. Hell, even coaches themselves never (or they shouldn't), give you reads themselves, or point you where to find info to lynch a dude or something. Coaches give you advice on how to play, give you feedback on your play, etc. I think it's different from what rayn and co are talking about. I don't think people talking general strategy and how to improve their play outside of games (even if they are playing in one of those), is bad. We can't put people that are playing a game inside a bunker and forbid them from any interaction with society. But the discussions are different. Discussing how to improve/General strategy talk =/= Give specific reads on the specific game you are playing. Even then, unless you are a coach, you don't talk too much about the 1st one. | ||
|
Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
Everyone knows hydras are strong. (Or Masons, for that matter). Another person to bounce ideas around with is insanely beneficial as town. It gives you direction you may have been lacking otherwise. | ||
|
Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
So dont contact people with obs and dead people and its fine | ||
|
raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
Last newbie game i coached i "knew" Robik was mafia because i happened to saw his scummy post, did i tell my coachees to lynch him? No. I told them how to play mafia when they asked me. Not who to lynch. It's dumb to bring coaching into this. It has nothing to do with the issue. | ||
|
syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
Unless the coach isn't reading the thread at all and the coached person does not quote anything, your own perspective is usually going to affect any advice you give, no matter how general it may seem like. | ||
|
Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
| ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
This should be taken to the actual ban list thread. | ||
|
HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
Actually saying in-thread that another specific player has been reading and agrees with you (even if you don't post direct conversations) is not ok. It's the same reason why newbie games don't allow you to talk about your interactions with coaches - it gives indications to your alignment that have nothing to do with what's going on in the thread. | ||
|
syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
On April 15 2014 13:33 HiroPro wrote: Actually saying in-thread that another specific player has been reading and agrees with you (even if you don't post direct conversations) is not ok. It's the same reason why newbie games don't allow you to talk about your interactions with coaches - it gives indications to your alignment that have nothing to do with what's going on in the thread. I absolutely agree with this. I also dislike when players ask hosts questions in public or even make specific excuses about their activity. In my view you shouldn't say anything that doesn't directly relate to the game. | ||
|
Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
| ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On April 15 2014 13:39 Keirathi wrote: Say I'm in a game right now and I PM you and say "Hey man. Can you take a look at *insert filter here* and tell me what you see? Something feels off." is okay? My opinion is that it's okay if and only if that person is otherwise un-involved in the game in any way (not a replacement, not in obs, not already talking to other players). But you're talking about from the player's perspective and they're talking about from the outsider's perspective. | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
| ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On April 15 2014 13:38 DarthPunk wrote: Rayn said marv has told him who he should lynch on two separate occasions. One of which was a game in which he had access to the obs qt. This is important, you should post it in the Ban thread. <- That way | ||
|
Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On April 15 2014 13:41 ObviousOne wrote: My opinion is that it's okay if and only if that person is otherwise un-involved in the game in any way (not a replacement, not in obs, not already talking to other players). But you're talking about from the player's perspective and they're talking about from the outsider's perspective. I don't think it's okay, whether that person is involved or not. Specifically talking about reads with anyone not in the game thread or appropriate QTs seems pretty sketchy. There's a bit of a grey area, of course. Say I was playing a game of LoL with wave, and he's like "Hey, so how's Random Game going? I've read most of it but missed the last day" And I say something like "Oh it's okay. We lynched scum yesterday, and I'm pretty sure yamato is scum and we'll lynch him tomorrow." To which Wave replies "Oh yea, I can definitely see him being scum from what little I read." Something like that is hard to really call "cheating", but it is certainly a grey area, and I'm sure most people have done it accidentally on occasion. But where do you draw the line? It's a very very hard line *TO* draw, and probably the best solution is just to say "Don't talk about reads with people outside of the game, EVER." | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On April 15 2014 13:43 DarthPunk wrote: This breakout discussion thread is the worst. We now have the same discussion in two threads and have to fucking cross post things. There's a reason I'm not posting in the ban thread. I'm not making arguments for why anyone should or should not get banned. And I dont really think the ban list thread is the place to discuss potential rules changes. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
On April 15 2014 13:39 Keirathi wrote: Say I'm in a game right now and I PM you and say "Hey man. Can you take a look at *insert filter here* and tell me what you see? Something feels off." is okay? It's really hard to define stuff like this. If you're just like "BH obvious mafia, everyone else is jubjubs and can't see it -__-" and the other person is like "yea i agree", w/e who cares. But if that person is going to write a case for you or tell you something like this, then I don't think it's ok at all: Original Message From strongandbig: hey so sorry ive been away i'm at CERN now, it means I'm doing a lot of work - we shipped an experiment here from the US. anyway let's talk a little bit about reads. Here's where I stand right now: Players 1) Igrok ---- probably scum, b/c of carrying us and trololol 2) Cephiro ---- probably scum for setup reasons, scum probably have a samus bc of kp imbalance plus we and cephiro both revealed we are samus yet igrok decided to carry us, why? 3) Mister Saturn ---- town lol 4) grush57 ---- I don't think I've seen him play a game where it actually looked like he was trying. Null read 5) talismania ---- probably scum, i forget why at the moment but that's what I thought last night 6) kingdedede ---- probably town, no reason for scum to reveal that they had a bus driver when they could have used it to screw town over, and it would have been easy enough for him not to claim it's not like there was pressure on him 7) HomerunBat ---- idk. doublenubs. null read 8) Risen ---- probably town, i dont think scum would have jumped into that exact shit flinging fest like he did for such a little reason as to counter igrok's plan; seems more like something an excited townie would do. IMO if scum are trying to jumble up the thread they would do it either by getting emotional or by trying to incite someone else, but not just by getting into a setup discussion. I could be wrong though. So ranking from towniest to least town: 1) Mister Saturn 2) kingdedede 3) Risen 4) HomerunBat 5) grush57 6) Cephiro 7) talismania 8) Igrok | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On April 15 2014 13:27 raynpelikoneet wrote: Coaches are different. Ask BH, good coaches don't even have a clue what's going on in the game. They don't tell how to play a particular game and what to do in that game, they tell how to play mafia and how to find scum / trick town. It's true, I don't need to read a thread to be a top tier coach. I haven't been following this discussion very carefully so this is not an endorsement of either side. | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On April 15 2014 13:56 Blazinghand wrote: It's true, I don't need to read a thread to be a top tier coach. I haven't been following this discussion very carefully so this is not an endorsement of either side. bh so meta | ||
yamato77
11589 Posts
But I don't really see a need to change the rules. I think the mafia forum could benefit a bit if players were encouraged to ask advice from other players in games that weren't newbies. I remember asking Prome for advice in Nomination and it helped me have my breakout game as a townie. He never told me how he read anyone, I simply asked him about general game advice. | ||
|
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
White-grey would just mean a "Bad boy!" reprimand, or a "It's not that bad" Black-grey is serious, is cheating, ban-worthy and should be talked about. I'd say "secret Hydraing" falls into this. The thing with Toad/Foo is that it's not clear whether they were casually talking and Toad just happened to agree with Foo, or if they "hiddenly" argued and came to a consensus about a player that it convinced Toad to pursue his lynch. From the snippet rayn posted it seemed the 2nd, but it's not that clear. On April 15 2014 14:03 yamato77 wrote: But I don't really see a need to change the rules. I think the mafia forum could benefit a bit if players were encouraged to ask advice from other players in games that weren't newbies. I remember asking Prome for advice in Nomination and it helped me have my breakout game as a townie. He never told me how he read anyone, I simply asked him about general game advice. This is fine, but this is only white-white-gray, like RGB(253,253,253). We don't really care about that, we care about RGB(50,50,50) (or heaven forbid....RBG(20,20,20) :O ) The bolded bits don't really address what's happening here. Yes, you can ask anybody in the world, this forum, myself, etc, about "general game advice", and we will all respond with open arms and loving embrace and guide you through this perilous life. But that's not much what we are talking about I believe, which would entail the other bolded bit (not changing the rules). | ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
I messaged marv when he was playing in champions game. I didn't have the QT but I consider what I did cheating. Read from bottom up. yeah, yeah, I know, I do that egotistical thing as town. It's true though, I did start both wagons, just on the wrong one T.T hahaha makes me laugh so much you pick up on that, because even I recognise it's such a typical "me" thing. Also yeah, if Foolish lives, there's a best-play time to lynch him, when he has x checks so you can solve the game if he flips town, OR you're lynching mafia by lynching him. Haven't worked it out yet, but it's easy enough Original Message From DarthPunk: I would just lynch him before lylo. cause he most likely get's shot before then but you don;t want to have to deal with him at LYLO either. One thing I found amusing was when you were on the wagon that didn;t lynch scum and then you said they 'could both be scum' and that 'you started both the wagons' was super funny because it was so familiar to me. and meant you were totes town. HAHA. Hide nested quote - Original Message From marvellosity: pretty sure i used the word 'paranoia' twice now Kinda hoping he gets shot in the daypost I'd guess Traz/Foolish as the scum kills Original Message From DarthPunk: Yeah I saw that. Not sure why you think he is more likely to be scum after his cop claim. But w/e. Original Message From marvellosity: Not sure how close you read the game, but I defended Foolishness super-hard on Day 2 when he was leading the lynch. Only since has my paranoia kicked in Naw, your reasons for attacking me usually aren't dumb, only bad <3 Original Message From DarthPunk: As long as the marv rule doesn't apply to me, cause I go at you all the time. I won't say to much about the game. But foolishness WAS town in personality 2. Original Message From marvellosity: yeah he was on my suspicious pile ever since soah brought him up on day 1, but for some reason the fact he kept attacking me prevented me from attacking him really heavily, which is a bit dumb So far 2 for 2 scummers who attacked me dumbly. Maybe more to follow :D Kinda hoping Foolish dies with the daypost, I'm getting all paranoid. Two full strength cops in a game without gf/framer/miller is ugh. Only makes sense if there's 7 mafia or something Original Message From DarthPunk: Yeah I saw. I read the whole game. Not that closely but close enough to see mango was scum like immediately. Original Message From marvellosity: There's clearly some very strong players in the game. But at the same time there were/are a shockingly high number of really terrible players. Although that game is giving birth to a new marv-rule :D | ||
|
Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On April 15 2014 09:26 raynpelikoneet wrote: I'll be honest here. And i want to be. Because i am pissed off. Not gonna lie. Foolishness. I made a bad boo-boo and yelled things to gumshoe drunk. You told me "if you don't stop you ar gonna face a perma ban on TL". Well guess fucking what. No! I won't. Or... then give it to me. But man, you. you don't get to tell me that. GMarshal or Greymist etc... people who are reasonable, they can tell me what to do. You can't. You can go fuck yourself because you are a cheater. Thank you. You cheated with Toad on Dr.Who mafia and you can't deny it. So, if you got something to say to me, take it to mods, because you are a cheater. You are not allowed to talk to me like you did. Thanks. So, apologize, or give me the perma ban right here right now. Go man! Be a man, let's see your balls. A cheater can't tell me what to do and if he does... just..... rofl You violated TeamLiquid's rules about posting behavior on forums. If you don't believe check their commandments and rules. When you do that and it's over the top (which it was) any of the mods will just ban you for it, they won't care about what GM says even though they usually leave things to him. I can deny that I cheated with Toad on Dr. Who mafia because I didn't. I also wasn't even playing in that game...lol rofl I don't even know why I'm responding to you. I sent you that PM when you were drunk because I didn't want you to do something you would later regret. I've seen you play video mafia and quite a few games here; some people hate you but I always liked you. Guess it was just one way though. | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
| ||
|
kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
| ||
|
kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
| ||
|
Hopeless1der
United States5836 Posts
| ||
|
yamato77
11589 Posts
| ||
|
Hopeless1der
United States5836 Posts
| ||
|
yamato77
11589 Posts
On April 15 2014 14:57 DarthPunk wrote: This is a recurring problem. I have basically been just as guilty as everyone else. I messaged marv when he was playing in champions game. I didn't have the QT but I consider what I did cheating. Read from bottom up. I wouldn't even really consider that cheating. | ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On April 16 2014 03:39 Hopeless1der wrote: rayn's permaban is being discussed because rayn got (un?)reasonably upset at the state of affairs here at TL Mafia and lashed out at various members of the community, primarily in-game, where such outbursts crossed the line in both the game itself and the standards held at TeamLiquid as per the TL.net Commandments I do not think that rayn has any desire (at the moment) to continue playing here until/unless the issues he has brought up are addressed and some level of governance is put in place to ensure that similar transgressions do not occur in the future. At present, those issues are things that I will attempt to simplify: 1) Out-of-game bargaining using items such as one's life (i.e. "I Swear On My Life...etc") 2) Out-of-game hydra/communication with players not actively playing (e.g. reading the thread with a friend and discussing reads) If I have missed anything as it pertains to the situation with rayn, please feel free to correct me. "Items such as one's life" as a phrase ALREADY shows why this "issue" is a non-issue. One's life literally isn't an item. Swearing on your grandmother's grave ltierally isn't an item. Now, if I offered to swear to a life of servitute for someone if I flipped scum, okay, sure, you could say that's out of game bargaining. But why even include "items such as one's life" then? That's ballcrap and you know it. Nobody is bargaining or betting that they're actually gonna commit suicide if they get lynched or if they flip scum. In fact, as I've said it once and I'll say it again: the problem isn't that people do this as town, it's that they DON'T do this as scum. NOBODY has a problem with me doing this as scum. Sure, people think it's distasteful but nobody at all thinks I'm like cheating when I say "I'm sorry guys, I'm just so depressed, my wife left me, my dog bit me, etc etc" and then I delay getting lynched for a day and flip scum the day after. Nobody minds that. What people mind is that people use these words as a "Starsenses" or a "Townie Seal". In my opinion, "I swear on my life" is COMPLETELY OK as long as it's not used as a Townie Seal. Don't make a rule against bargaining non-items or certain phrases, it's dumb, and you should feel bad for making that rule. Just make a rule against townie seals if you want to, because that's really what this is: a rule against townie seals. Don't punish me and my play because some other players are too scared to play their best as scum. | ||
|
yamato77
11589 Posts
If an outside observer is just casually talking/discussing the game with a player, even if they discuss reads, it doesn't really constitute cheating. The player outside the game has no vested interest in the outcome of the game other than helping their friend, which is not something we should be discouraging. | ||
|
justanothertownie
16319 Posts
On April 16 2014 03:18 kitaman27 wrote: I wanna know where I can get my hands on a "marv PM'd me that you're scum" seal. Yeah, that would be useful. | ||
|
gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Like, instead of banning a guy, appoint him a coach for the next game. The coach should take note of that player's behaviour in the game (depending on what he did to get banned, e.g inactivity, flaming, cheating, etc), and give him advice along the game to improve, and try to get him back in line when the dude keeps doing the ban-worthy things. So if the dude starts flaming and ragequitting, have the coach talk to him in IRC or QT about what he is doing, why it hurts the game, how he could change his behaviour and his outlook on the game, how to chill out, etc. If the dude is AFKing, then the coach can like...start shouting at him or something I guess?. After the game is over, the coach could give some pointers to him on how he did or whatever. Then he could give some insight on whether he believed he improved or not, which could make the host "lift" the ban on him or keep it (or increase it if the guy got worse). Basically, when you "ban" a player, give him 2 options: 1)Sit out a game 2)Play the game, but be in constant contact with a rehab-coach, give him feedback, letting him give you feedback and advice, bla bla all that shit. If the dude chooses (2), but plays even worse (goes the whole game AFK for example), then you give him 1 more ban (which he has to sit out no matter what). I'm not saying this may or may not be totally retarded, but could be a fun alternative to the usual shitfest going on I mean, if Sweden can do it, why can't TL Mafia do it? | ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
| ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
| ||
|
ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
| ||
|
DarthPunk
Australia10857 Posts
On April 26 2014 11:56 ObviousOne wrote: So you, in fact, ARE a wizard, then. I see, I see... Slam? is that you? | ||
|
Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
I was looking around hit last page and saw that and I was like this vid | ||
| ||
|
|
Kung Fu Cup
TaeJa vs SHIN
ByuN vs Creator
The PondCast
RSL Revival
Classic vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs Maru
Online Event
Kung Fu Cup
BSL Team Wars
RSL Revival
Maestros of the Game
ShoWTimE vs Classic
Clem vs herO
Serral vs Bunny
Reynor vs Zoun
Cosmonarchy
Bonyth vs Dewalt
[BSL 2025] Weekly
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
