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On January 08 2014 13:57 Corazon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 13:56 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 08 2014 13:52 Corazon wrote:On January 08 2014 13:49 WaveofShadow wrote:
Cora I absolutely hate this 'woe is me, everyone's against me, look at people lying and twisting my words' attitude.
I've read some of the other games you've played in and you do this all the time.
Sack up and fucking play the game. Then stop fucking lying about every single post I make. I may have to put you on ignore like I do kush. You are insanely infuriating. It's infuriating to have you twist my words. This is a two way street, brother. I'm trying my hardest to be nice, but when you do this shit to me, it's hard to be cordial.
You take any talk against you as a personal affront. Even IF you could consider what I said about you lying, then I can do the very same to you by picking out all of the hyperbole where you talk about every thing I say about you a lie and twisting your words. I am absolutely not going to contribute to your misguided way of thinking and acting by furthering this argument of semantics and playstyle as it will only serve to be inconsequential and shit up the thread. I'll get what I need in regards to reads about you through your interactions with others.
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before I forget and go to sleep, I want to make this clear:
it's important that people look at the way players enter and reenter the thread. Yamato's reentrance is scummy as shit. iamp's is towny as hell. This is pretty easy to see, but there are instances where this is quite difficult.
Today, I didn't see any of the following four:
Cheesecake
Artanis
gumshoe
mkfuba
From towniest to scummiest, in that order. Both CC and Artanis look fine, and gumshoe is a bit iffy to me, but mkfuba in particular looks awful. I know he tends to play what I like to call "scummy town" but his posts in particular are very on-the-fency and generally quite nebulous. His only attack so far has been on Cora, and it was quite weak. After his initial small amount of activity he has since disappeared.
What's important is that we note the reentrance into the thread of all 4 of these players. If you are around when they come back I implore you to question them. I will do so myself if I'm awake at the time.
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bugs what do you think about this:
On January 08 2014 13:25 Corazon wrote:
Thrawn - lynching Rayn D1 is a bad idea. If Rayn is town, he is going to be a great asset to us going forward. He should be a policy lynch if he lasts longer than N2.
?
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On January 08 2014 14:07 wherebugsgo wrote:
before I forget and go to sleep, I want to make this clear:
it's important that people look at the way players enter and reenter the thread. Yamato's reentrance is scummy as shit. iamp's is towny as hell. This is pretty easy to see, but there are instances where this is quite difficult.
Today, I didn't see any of the following four:
Cheesecake
Artanis
gumshoe
mkfuba
From towniest to scummiest, in that order. Both CC and Artanis look fine, and gumshoe is a bit iffy to me, but mkfuba in particular looks awful. I know he tends to play what I like to call "scummy town" but his posts in particular are very on-the-fency and generally quite nebulous. His only attack so far has been on Cora, and it was quite weak. After his initial small amount of activity he has since disappeared.
What's important is that we note the reentrance into the thread of all 4 of these players. If you are around when they come back I implore you to question them. I will do so myself if I'm awake at the time.
Does it work if you warn them...?
I know I wasn't asked Rayn, but I agree with him actually. Well, sort of? Probably wouldn't lynch you D1 at least not in this game (though that doesn't apply to every game necessarily).
Oh wait lol policy lynch you D3 just because you're alive? That's ridiculous.
Shit I better be careful what I say though. Don't want to be twisting any words or lying.
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On January 08 2014 13:57 wherebugsgo wrote:
As for Cora, if he routinely plays like this (something that I will try to confirm for myself later, probably early tomorrow when I wake up) then he's probably not scum since there are ways one can justify his play from a town perspective. It's hard, but doable. However he's still a reasonable alternate choice if something drastic changes with regards to yamato.
This is a pretty tame variation of what you'd normally get but the attitude is the same. I have known him to fudge his explanations as town to avoid suspicion and other "scummy" stuff like that so you need to approach with caution. TBH I kinda expected him to blow up at some of the things people have already said, so I need to read some of his scum games to see if the more passive, instead of hostile, woe-is-me attitude fits his scum play.
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On January 08 2014 14:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 13:57 wherebugsgo wrote:
IIRC yamato did a similar thing the last game I played with him, Smurf Mini. Although I don't know if it was because he was scum or busy or what (I assume a combination of both) but he lurked to the point where he got replaced, then his replacement won the game for him and his team basically. (not like the replacement really did anything either, though). On day 1 we almost lynched him, but switched and lynched someone else who happened to also flip scum.
We need to consolidate on yamato as long as he continues to be worthless. He's not completely useless as town and it's incredibly scummy for him to come back only when pressured simply to post one line and leave again.
As for Cora, if he routinely plays like this (something that I will try to confirm for myself later, probably early tomorrow when I wake up) then he's probably not scum since there are ways one can justify his play from a town perspective. It's hard, but doable. However he's still a reasonable alternate choice if something drastic changes with regards to yamato. I don't think this is a right way to go, because yamato already promised to contribute. When someone does that you leave them alone to make them feel comfortable (in case they are scum) and focus on other people. If yamato does not contribute, he claims scum and we can vote him at the end of the day.If we vote for yamato now, regardless of his alignment, noone else is pressured and while townies should not stop contributing even when there is a clear thread sentiment that's unfortunately not the general line of thinking. Placing votes on yamato will kill the discussion to some extent, people are more likely to contribute if they are under pressure. yamato was already under pressure and promised to contribute, that pressure has achieved what it's purpose was.
Can you give me an example of where the bolded has ever worked?
There have been tons of times where town has backed off upon the first hint of resistance. Yamato did something incredibly scummy-he reentered the thread and promptly disappeared. If he was town he'd be here arguing for his innocence and providing us with proper reads. It's much easier to read someone when they are actively present rather than afk.
As at the very least a decent player yamato knows that. I've seen him play town myself. If he's not making sense or contributing to town he needs to die, and taking our votes off and moving them just because he gave us a promise is not a good way to ensure that we'll actually have the ability to kill him when the lynch deadline comes around.
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On January 08 2014 14:07 raynpelikoneet wrote:bugs what do you think about this: Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 13:25 Corazon wrote:
Thrawn - lynching Rayn D1 is a bad idea. If Rayn is town, he is going to be a great asset to us going forward. He should be a policy lynch if he lasts longer than N2. ?
sounds like a dumb opinion to me
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it'd also be pretty scummy if not for what was just said about him
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On January 08 2014 14:11 WaveofShadow wrote:
I know I wasn't asked Rayn, but I agree with him actually. Well, sort of? Probably wouldn't lynch you D1 at least not in this game (though that doesn't apply to every game necessarily).
The problem with that explanation isn't that it's illogical, because it makes sense. The problem is that it's a standard, cut and paste answer that can be thrown in any time a scum player wants to justify not pushing a certain lynch. As town you can still hold that opinion that rayn shouldn't be lynched on D1 but you should be able to form a read based on D1 play.
In other words, "lynching X is bad on D1 so I'm not gonna worry about him" is a scummy substitute for a read
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On January 08 2014 14:12 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 13:57 wherebugsgo wrote:
As for Cora, if he routinely plays like this (something that I will try to confirm for myself later, probably early tomorrow when I wake up) then he's probably not scum since there are ways one can justify his play from a town perspective. It's hard, but doable. However he's still a reasonable alternate choice if something drastic changes with regards to yamato. This is a pretty tame variation of what you'd normally get but the attitude is the same. I have known him to fudge his explanations as town to avoid suspicion and other "scummy" stuff like that so you need to approach with caution. TBH I kinda expected him to blow up at some of the things people have already said, so I need to read some of his scum games to see if the more passive, instead of hostile, woe-is-me attitude fits his scum play.
This actually may very well strike home with me a little.
Do you think Cora is playing me purposefully rather than blowing this up further? I know he has been doing his best to change his attitude outside of games, but to me this looks like exactly the kind of shit people get pissed off at him every game for.
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On January 08 2014 14:16 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 14:11 WaveofShadow wrote:
I know I wasn't asked Rayn, but I agree with him actually. Well, sort of? Probably wouldn't lynch you D1 at least not in this game (though that doesn't apply to every game necessarily).
The problem with that explanation isn't that it's illogical, because it makes sense. The problem is that it's a standard, cut and paste answer that can be thrown in any time a scum player wants to justify not pushing a certain lynch. As town you can still hold that opinion that rayn shouldn't be lynched on D1 but you should be able to form a read based on D1 play. In other words, "lynching X is bad on D1 so I'm not gonna worry about him" is a scummy substitute for a read
actually it's worse than that, it's akin to setting up a lynch for later.
Let's pretend he's scum for a second and he wants to push me as a lynch today. Assuming I don't die and his team doesn't find rayn a threat, he'll just leave rayn alive, right?
So then let's say I do end up dying at some point, then all he has to do is turn around on his old read of rayn and push that on a later day. Easy pickings.
I do this all the time as scum.
The problem is that this requires an assumption about Corazon's play that I am not comfortable with making right now. I'm not so sure how to read him atm.
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@ WBG read his Back to Basics Mini filter if you want to know what's on the extreme end of the town spectrum
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On January 08 2014 14:12 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 14:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 08 2014 13:57 wherebugsgo wrote:
IIRC yamato did a similar thing the last game I played with him, Smurf Mini. Although I don't know if it was because he was scum or busy or what (I assume a combination of both) but he lurked to the point where he got replaced, then his replacement won the game for him and his team basically. (not like the replacement really did anything either, though). On day 1 we almost lynched him, but switched and lynched someone else who happened to also flip scum.
We need to consolidate on yamato as long as he continues to be worthless. He's not completely useless as town and it's incredibly scummy for him to come back only when pressured simply to post one line and leave again.
As for Cora, if he routinely plays like this (something that I will try to confirm for myself later, probably early tomorrow when I wake up) then he's probably not scum since there are ways one can justify his play from a town perspective. It's hard, but doable. However he's still a reasonable alternate choice if something drastic changes with regards to yamato. I don't think this is a right way to go, because yamato already promised to contribute. When someone does that you leave them alone to make them feel comfortable (in case they are scum) and focus on other people. If yamato does not contribute, he claims scum and we can vote him at the end of the day.If we vote for yamato now, regardless of his alignment, noone else is pressured and while townies should not stop contributing even when there is a clear thread sentiment that's unfortunately not the general line of thinking. Placing votes on yamato will kill the discussion to some extent, people are more likely to contribute if they are under pressure. yamato was already under pressure and promised to contribute, that pressure has achieved what it's purpose was. Can you give me an example of where the bolded has ever worked? There have been tons of times where town has backed off upon the first hint of resistance. Yamato did something incredibly scummy-he reentered the thread and promptly disappeared. If he was town he'd be here arguing for his innocence and providing us with proper reads. It's much easier to read someone when they are actively present rather than afk. As at the very least a decent player yamato knows that. I've seen him play town myself. If he's not making sense or contributing to town he needs to die, and taking our votes off and moving them just because he gave us a promise is not a good way to ensure that we'll actually have the ability to kill him when the lynch deadline comes around.
Okay so what do you expect the town gains if we all put our votes on yamato now?
He has done what he has done, that does not change. some people find it scummy some people don't. That does not change regardless of how many votes are on him. However putting votes on him does not allow the town to pressure other people. I don't care if this has worked or not worked in other games because i can tell you for sure i will not forget arguments and people's promises and i sure as hell will confromt yamato when he comes back to the thread.
On January 08 2014 14:13 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 14:07 raynpelikoneet wrote:bugs what do you think about this: On January 08 2014 13:25 Corazon wrote:
Thrawn - lynching Rayn D1 is a bad idea. If Rayn is town, he is going to be a great asset to us going forward. He should be a policy lynch if he lasts longer than N2. ? sounds like a dumb opinion to me
Why this is incredibly scummy thinking is because of there are at least you and iamp in the game who are generally considered better players than me. Also yamato, Artanis, WoS, thrawn etc.. *Notice this is not supposed to be an insult to anyone and does not represent my thoughts because i obviously think i am the best mafia on the planet*.
If i am generally not considered to be in top 2 of players in this game stating that i should be policy lynched on D3 if i am alive is a way of saying "i refuse to give my opinions on rayn and i will already set up an arbitary read on him regardless of what he does - a read that becomes "valid" at some point of the game".
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On January 08 2014 14:18 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 14:16 thrawn2112 wrote:On January 08 2014 14:11 WaveofShadow wrote:
I know I wasn't asked Rayn, but I agree with him actually. Well, sort of? Probably wouldn't lynch you D1 at least not in this game (though that doesn't apply to every game necessarily).
The problem with that explanation isn't that it's illogical, because it makes sense. The problem is that it's a standard, cut and paste answer that can be thrown in any time a scum player wants to justify not pushing a certain lynch. As town you can still hold that opinion that rayn shouldn't be lynched on D1 but you should be able to form a read based on D1 play. In other words, "lynching X is bad on D1 so I'm not gonna worry about him" is a scummy substitute for a read actually it's worse than that, it's akin to setting up a lynch for later. Let's pretend he's scum for a second and he wants to push me as a lynch today. Assuming I don't die and his team doesn't find rayn a threat, he'll just leave rayn alive, right? So then let's say I do end up dying at some point, then all he has to do is turn around on his old read of rayn and push that on a later day. Easy pickings.I do this all the time as scum. The problem is that this requires an assumption about Corazon's play that I am not comfortable with making right now. I'm not so sure how to read him atm.
Only if anyone would follow a push on horrible reasoning. It's a blatantly bad scumplay if true.
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EBWOP: "best mafia player"
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On January 08 2014 14:18 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 14:12 thrawn2112 wrote:On January 08 2014 13:57 wherebugsgo wrote:
As for Cora, if he routinely plays like this (something that I will try to confirm for myself later, probably early tomorrow when I wake up) then he's probably not scum since there are ways one can justify his play from a town perspective. It's hard, but doable. However he's still a reasonable alternate choice if something drastic changes with regards to yamato. This is a pretty tame variation of what you'd normally get but the attitude is the same. I have known him to fudge his explanations as town to avoid suspicion and other "scummy" stuff like that so you need to approach with caution. TBH I kinda expected him to blow up at some of the things people have already said, so I need to read some of his scum games to see if the more passive, instead of hostile, woe-is-me attitude fits his scum play. This actually may very well strike home with me a little. Do you think Cora is playing me purposefully rather than blowing this up further? I know he has been doing his best to change his attitude outside of games, but to me this looks like exactly the kind of shit people get pissed off at him every game for.
I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that you don't think he was as hostile as town Corazon would have been? But you don't know how to reconcile this judgement with how he may or may not have changed after recent drama?
If you are, then sadly that's not really a productive conversation we can have out in the open so we'll just have to decide for ourselves.
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On January 08 2014 14:24 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 14:18 WaveofShadow wrote:On January 08 2014 14:12 thrawn2112 wrote:On January 08 2014 13:57 wherebugsgo wrote:
As for Cora, if he routinely plays like this (something that I will try to confirm for myself later, probably early tomorrow when I wake up) then he's probably not scum since there are ways one can justify his play from a town perspective. It's hard, but doable. However he's still a reasonable alternate choice if something drastic changes with regards to yamato. This is a pretty tame variation of what you'd normally get but the attitude is the same. I have known him to fudge his explanations as town to avoid suspicion and other "scummy" stuff like that so you need to approach with caution. TBH I kinda expected him to blow up at some of the things people have already said, so I need to read some of his scum games to see if the more passive, instead of hostile, woe-is-me attitude fits his scum play. This actually may very well strike home with me a little. Do you think Cora is playing me purposefully rather than blowing this up further? I know he has been doing his best to change his attitude outside of games, but to me this looks like exactly the kind of shit people get pissed off at him every game for. I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that you don't think he was as hostile as town Corazon would have been? But you don't know how to reconcile this judgement with how he may or may not have changed after recent drama? If you are, then sadly that's not really a productive conversation we can have out in the open so we'll just have to decide for ourselves.
....pretty much. Doing my best not to bring anything from outside or personal attacks into this, but I may or may not be succeeding so well, hence my decision to drop dealings with him for now.
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Can you give me an example of where the bolded has ever worked?
TL Mafia LXII Noir where Cephiro was lynched because of this. Not on D2 when he was supposed to because someone fakeclaimed a doctor over the real doctor but the next day. Without the claim it would have happened, especially if i was not mafia and town-..-
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So Corazon just decided to leave when he got questioned. I think it's pretty evident of him being scum.
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On January 08 2014 14:22 raynpelikoneet wrote:
If i am generally not considered to be in top 2 of players in this game stating that i should be policy lynched on D3 if i am alive is a way of saying "i refuse to give my opinions on rayn and i will already set up an arbitary read on him regardless of what he does - a read that becomes "valid" at some point of the game".
that's my point here
On January 08 2014 14:16 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 14:11 WaveofShadow wrote:
I know I wasn't asked Rayn, but I agree with him actually. Well, sort of? Probably wouldn't lynch you D1 at least not in this game (though that doesn't apply to every game necessarily).
The problem with that explanation isn't that it's illogical, because it makes sense. The problem is that it's a standard, cut and paste answer that can be thrown in any time a scum player wants to justify not pushing a certain lynch. As town you can still hold that opinion that rayn shouldn't be lynched on D1 but you should be able to form a read based on D1 play. In other words, "lynching X is bad on D1 so I'm not gonna worry about him" is a scummy substitute for a read
I don't mind that he said based on its merit as a policy because that's not town/mafia...... it's scummy because it's a substitute for giving an actual read
maybe if he said:
"I think rayn is a little scummy, but I don't like lynching him on D1" then I might say Cor's town even if I disagreed, but as it is there's no read to go along with it.
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EPT
