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yamato77
11589 Posts
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On December 03 2013 15:41 cDgCorazon wrote: And tbh I'm getting way too much blame for the town's loss. Stop calling mafia a team game and then solely blaming Rayn and I for "messing up the town atmosphere". iirc most people have been pretty forthcoming regarding their own shortcomings | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On December 03 2013 15:34 Holyflare wrote: As far as the game itself, I can't really say anything other than the arguments ruined it for you. I was allowed to play scummy as hell and get away with it because so much attention was drawn away from me it was unreal. My claim allowed things like this to occur: To be honest, rean's slot being AFK for almost all of d2 kind of made a mess of my plans for the day. Though I agree d2 could have gone better. | ||
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
On December 03 2013 15:44 yamato77 wrote: You aren't really reading what I wrote, are you? I'm reading your advice and I'm trying to decide how much care I should put into my play. If I detach myself emotionally from my play then mentally I will stop trying to win the game. Did I do anything well this game? All I'm getting from you and everyone else is how shit I am and how caring about the game is bad and how scummy I looked the entire game and tbh I really don't care anymore about how shit I played this game. D1 I played bad but I did not mess w/town atmosphere - don't generalize my play D2 I played really well and tried better to establish my towniness which I think I did a really good job of by pushing my Onegu read D3/D4 I basically thought the scumteam was Chezinu/Onegu/HF and none of the three were proving me otherwise, so I stopped trying Maybe it's because everytime I try and steer town off of a mislynch and they don't listen to me is the reason I get so mad every game. I don't enjoy being mad and maybe you all should look at the causes of my anger before saying 'OMG CORA U R SUCH A DICK AND YOU SOLELY MAKE TOWN ATMOSPHERE BAD ' | ||
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
On November 25 2013 16:14 cDgCorazon wrote: @Thrawn: First of all, you've seen what happens when my opinion isn't taken seriously: Rayn flipped town when he was obviously town JJD flipped town when Onegu was the better lynch Why do you think I'm going to claim that no one listens to me? If people had thought about my opinion for two seconds, Rayn might still be around (that is debatable, I'll admit) and Onegu would be lynched and he would probably be more likely to roll scum. This happens in a lot of my games and forces reactions after seeing yet another VT flip due to the town not listening and not reading my arguments (at least without me pushing them). Second of all, you took the post from me and didn't add any context. I wrote it after I had received the 20th post this game that was formatted exactly like this: Before you go on and simply call me a bully, you need to look at others and you need to understand how bullies are made. Bullies aren't made because they think they are better than everyone else, they are made because they are being bullied by someone else, and they feel like they need to pick on others. Well here is the cycle. I get picked on for no reason and for no purpose to the thread other than talking about how scummy I am with absolutely no intention to vote for me. Why does anyone do this? It makes no sense to make these sort of comments without pushing any agenda. It serves one purpose: to irritate and annoy me and throw me off of my game. You (and many others both in this game and on this forum) need to understand that bullying is a cycle, and is rarely a straight line. Back to game matters. I never told you to be a town leader and I never said I was a town leader during D2. I was only town leader due to being the only one active for the entire cycle. I called on you to be more active and while you did step up your game a little bit, it's not enough to help in the scum hunt. I voted for you not just to pick on you, I voted to get you in the thread. My vote for you could've been on JJD or Bereft or Aqua. It was just random choice that I threw it on you (I'd also like to point out that you randomly tried to start a lynch train on me D1, or have you forgotten already?)/ You're not on my train because you aren't active enough. You're doing better than D1 (which is why I don't want you lynched D3) but not enough to be considered for my proposed town circle. Do you understand how frustrated me/Moc/Aqua are about the lack of activity this game? It allows at least 5 people to lurk without fear. There aren't 5 scum in the game. It's just detrimental to have this much lurking in a game, and it's hurting us in the long run. Sorry for the long train of thought but that's what I want to say. Also this is a cause for my anger. | ||
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
setup + Show Spoiler + I think the setup is pretty heavily scum favored, and that town winning was always a long shot. With 9 townies and 3 scum, I think town wins something like 18% of the time with random lynches. So you need some seriously powerful blues to balance it. IMO a single medic is not enough. Add to this the fact that the setup was closed and scum had a delay power (meaning town can't even no-lynch at 4-person MYLO) and you have a game that's really hard for town. For the record, I think most mini setups on this site are scum favored. In the 11 minis I've played scum has won 9, so it's possible I suffer from outcome bias. D1 + Show Spoiler + I thought the D1 atmosphere was pretty good for town. I didn't really enjoy getting into a fight with Cora as it drew a lot of attention to me, but it ended up OK for me, as more people were suspicious of Cora than myself. I disagree that Aquanim played poorly on D1; I thought he was actually one of the towniest players. And I thought he was pretty dangerous, as his scumhutning was more cautious and well-reasoned compared to others which were much more confirmation-biased. As such I would have really liked to have all scum jump on his bandwaggon and get him out of the game, so at first I tried to leave myself the option of voting him On November 21 2013 10:18 sciberbia wrote: Aquanim could be scum, but I think I still feel better about Cora and Rean, and now Onegu. Finishing up a post on Onegu. I want some serious looks at it because I think he may be the best lynch today. but while under pressure he just looked so townie to me that I thought it'd be claiming scum if I voted for him. Maybe I should have though. Making votes like Aquanim and Rayn D1 I could not possibly see myself doing as town, so I felt very scared to do it as scum. Felt like it'd be outing myself, but I dunno if anyone would realistically have caught me for it. Anyway, town eventually wisened up and the wagon on Aquanim disapeared for a wagon on Rean, which I thought was pretty well-founded. I thought Rean might very well be lynched, and I was ready to bus him. Rayn obviously made a huge mistake by disrupting this wagon, and town in turn made a mistake by lynching rayn over rean. I don't think rayn's play made any sense as scum, but for people that hadn't played with him before I could see why they would vote him. Also he was wrong on pretty much every read and disrupting the thread so it wasn't the worst lynch in the world even though he was town. D2 + Show Spoiler + As Aquanim said, this was just a case of none of the scum being really lynchable. I think I played a townie-enough D1 and D2 such that anyone who hasn't played with me before (the vast majority of the thread) would not be able to scumread me. IMO it's pretty hard to actually catch any decent scum player on legitimite scumtells without prior experience with them. HF claimed doctor so lynching him D2 didn't really make a lot of sense compared to D3. I think lynching him D3 worked out just fine for town. I don't think HF's play was particularly great, but I guess it's better than nothing. If he had actually played the game scum probably would have had a perfect victory. Rean was replaced by Slam, who might have been the smartest lynch based on Rean's filter, but it's always a tough decision with replacements. So in the end we lynched JJD. I thought the case on him was mediocre. I think my original vote on him looked pretty strong, but his explanations for his activity were fine and his play was similar to that previous game Bereft mentioned. If I were town I would probably have unvoted, but I'm still not sure who I would have lynched instead. Onegu looked pretty townie to me with his D2 play, which caused problems for me, as I really didn't want to call him scum for the rest of the game, but I kinda needed him to be mislynched so I couldn't call him town either. After this lynch, I did some analysis in the scum QT and concluded town would almost surely lose. At this point I started hyper-lurking because I'm lazy, wanted to enjoy the holidays, and was pretty confident I wouldn't lose anyway. Mocsta correctly caught on eventually and identified me as scum for it, but fortunately nobody else did. D3 + Show Spoiler + Cora's cop claim actually had me pretty worried. It's pretty hard to imagine why I wouldn't be shot as his green check. So I tried to push the explanation that scum weren't in the thread and didn't see it. In practice, finding scum by looking at who doesn't make sense to still be alive works pretty well. HF lynch was the only correct move D3, and town made it OK enough. Didn't help town that Cora was so stubborn about his Onegu read though. I don't think Onegu even played that scummily. I thought everyone would consider him confirmed town once he posted pics of 28 pages of notes (which by the way I think is unfair to the lazy-ass scumteam). But fortunately people still thought he was scum for whatever reason. I didn't really see how we could get around bussing HF, so I hopped on good and early to get some town cred. I was actually quite surprised people were even considering lynching Onegu, even given Cora's fake red check. D4 + Show Spoiler + Not sure if Chezinu shot was smart or not. I think his reasons for calling me scum were completely irrelevant, but the fact of the matter is he was the only one really suspicious of me, and might have voted for me. Also I thought he was probably blue. I guess I'm a fool. Anyway Slam wanted to shoot him so why not -- I think we could probably have made any shot and still won. And at least Chezinu would definitely not be doc'd. And we ended up lynching Onegu because the townies' reads weren't good enough to overcome such a huge disadvantage. 4-2 MYLO is pretty brutal, especially when you can't NL due to delay threat. D5 + Show Spoiler + I worked out through various reasoning that Bereft was likely a doc, but since he was suspicious of Mocsta being scum probably wouldn't save him. In any case I thought it'd be fun to claim roleblocker and claim I knew Bereft was a doc, in order to make myself 'confirmed town' if he saved Mocsta, leading us to lynch Slam and Cora and win the game. I'm curious if this would have worked. It would have been better if I actually proved why Bereft was a doc in my deadline post but I didn't have time, and thought the game would be over anyway. Overall, I'd say it was a scum-favored setup in which even our mediocre scum play would give us a good chance at winning. Town's scumhunting just wasn't good enough. I also reiterate my thanks to the hosts, especially OO. Made the game very smooth and pleasant for me. | ||
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Chezinu
United States7432 Posts
On December 03 2013 15:52 cDgCorazon wrote: I'm reading your advice and I'm trying to decide how much care I should put into my play. If I detach myself emotionally from my play then mentally I will stop trying to win the game. Did I do anything well this game? All I'm getting from you and everyone else is how shit I am and how caring about the game is bad and how scummy I looked the entire game and tbh I really don't care anymore about how shit I played this game. D1 I played bad but I did not mess w/town atmosphere - don't generalize my play D2 I played really well and tried better to establish my towniness which I think I did a really good job of by pushing my Onegu read D3/D4 I basically thought the scumteam was Chezinu/Onegu/HF and none of the three were proving me otherwise, so I stopped trying Maybe it's because everytime I try and steer town off of a mislynch and they don't listen to me is the reason I get so mad every game. I don't enjoy being mad and maybe you all should look at the causes of my anger before saying 'OMG CORA U R SUCH A DICK AND YOU SOLELY MAKE TOWN ATMOSPHERE BAD ' Yeah, you were doing pretty good until the fakeclaim. Day 2 you had my vote against onegu. Then when everyone decided to vote JJ, I wasn't buying it and voted HF - my read. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On December 03 2013 15:52 cDgCorazon wrote: I'm reading your advice and I'm trying to decide how much care I should put into my play. If I detach myself emotionally from my play then mentally I will stop trying to win the game. Did I do anything well this game? All I'm getting from you and everyone else is how shit I am and how caring about the game is bad and how scummy I looked the entire game and tbh I really don't care anymore about how shit I played this game. D1 I played bad but I did not mess w/town atmosphere - don't generalize my play D2 I played really well and tried better to establish my towniness which I think I did a really good job of by pushing my Onegu read D3/D4 I basically thought the scumteam was Chezinu/Onegu/HF and none of the three were proving me otherwise, so I stopped trying Maybe it's because everytime I try and steer town off of a mislynch and they don't listen to me is the reason I get so mad every game. I don't enjoy being mad and maybe you all should look at the causes of my anger before saying 'OMG CORA U R SUCH A DICK AND YOU SOLELY MAKE TOWN ATMOSPHERE BAD ' You're overreacting to what I said. 1) You are not solely responsible for the poor town atmosphere, but you are responsible for being a dick the whole game, including D1. Denying this is silly, all the other analysts thought the same thing. 2) I'm not surprised no one listens to you. You take all credibility away from yourself when you're an asshole to people. It definitely doesn't work when no one thinks your reads are that good anyway and no one really trusts you to be townie. 3) You misinterpret what I said about taking your ego out of the game. Mafia is not a game about you personally. It's a random distribution of roles that is played out in an arbitrary setting with specific goals for every role. You play a part, you are not literally in the game. Don't take it personally when people think you are playing scummy, don't personally attack other players when you think they are playing scummy. It's that simple. I did not say to stop "caring about the game". 4) If you're going to argue with me instead of taking criticism and attempting to improve, you're defeating the point of the game. Do you want to get better at mafia? You signed up for this game, no? Then perhaps instead of blaming other players, you should try to understand how you could improve. I'm telling you how. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
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Chezinu
United States7432 Posts
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
I mean -- it still wasn't a good play. But the main problem was that he (and everyone else) was wrong about Onegu in the first place. I guess you can argue he was being a dick. But that's not really relevant to winning the game. @Cora My main advice to you would be 1) Don't take things so personally. Nobody disregarded your Onegu case in order to spite you or anything. People just genuinely didn't think Onegu was as likely to be scum as JJD. People's minds work in different ways and someone is always going to disagree with you. It's just something you have to get used to. 2) Be less sure in your reads. This really goes for everyone. Mafia is a hard game and you always have to consider the possibility that you are wrong. | ||
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
I can only take comfort in the fact that at least I understand what is going through my head when I play mafia. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Particularly I'm thinking of wanting to lynch Kickstart over Munk-E in Newbie XXXI and TestSubject over Glurio in TL Mafia LX, if anyone's interested. However, in neither of those cases did I get mad, despite my inclination to do so. Why? Because it wouldn't make anyone more interested in talking to me, and it wouldn't make the game any more fun for anyone else. Other approaches I've used in the past which you might want to keep in mind are:
Your reasons for behaving as you did in this game explain your actions to me. I now have a better understanding of why you did what you did. However, they do not justify your actions, and furthermore didn't help you either win the game or have fun playing it. Holding the game to ransom, making the game unfun for everybody, is simply unjustifiable - which is why the postgame comments have been coming down on you so hard. Blaming Onegu for your read on him isn't exactly sportsmanlike either - it's a kind of justifiable thing to say about a lurker who puts no effort in, but Onegu clearly gave some kind of a damn about this game regardless of his alignment. He played to his wincon as best he knew how, and that is all I ask of anyone. I offer this to you as reasonable feedback on your play, trying to understand your motivations as best I can. I don't need you to reply - either you take my feedback on board, or you don't. | ||
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
I agree you did a good job D2 of establishing your towniness and keeping the thread alive. I couldn't comfortably lurk because of you. Once you started afk'ing and demanding Onegu lynches I had an easier time of slinking back into the shadows after everything i posted. So I think you should try to emulate that type of play in future, but keep more of an open mind when driving discussion instead of tunneling your target. On December 03 2013 16:20 Aquanim wrote: Blaming Onegu for your read on him isn't exactly sportsmanlike either - it's a kind of justifiable thing to say about a lurker who puts no effort in, but Onegu clearly gave some kind of a damn about this game regardless of his alignment. He played to his wincon as best he knew how, and that is all I ask of anyone. I agree very much with this. I think Onegu clearly tried to win the game for his team. He'd look a lot better for it if his reads were right, but everyone makes bad reads. It's just part of the game. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
That's where Rayn went 100000000000000000000000000000000% wrong D1. He destroyed a good thread atmosphere. And as I said, it never recovered because of how negative, accusatory, and argumentative some players were in this game. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43266 Posts
Yes i ruined the second half of D1 and it was totally and only my fault, but i do not think the first half was "good play" either - regardless how right or wrong town was. EDIT: yamato it's not a good thread atmosphere where everyone are just friends with each other. If noone confronts other people and where there are no conflicts it usually always ends up in a townie lynch. People just agreed on the first 2 things there were and i'd say it was 100% luck that one of the cases happened to be on scum. If Rean/Aqua would have both been town and I was not in the game ruining the end of D1 it would have been ideal scum atmosphere where noone does anything and all discussion is shut down. | ||
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
On December 03 2013 16:12 Chezinu wrote: What I learned from this game is to trust the Chezinu Rule. I talked about this during the game. Every time it comes up despite knowing it has work 100% in the past, I am still hesitant. I have doubts thinking that it may fail this time. It requires faith to follow through with the Chezinu Rule. In the future, I need to trust this mighty rule more. So, remember faith>logic. Cause Chezinu Rules. I knew the rule and I still did it because I knew you would say something  | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
Now look I agree that scum have no reason to want themselves lynched - but townies shouldn't either. Furthermore, since martyring is a comparatively easy thing to emulate as scum, but scum have "no reason to do it", that in as of itself makes it something scum might choose to do. Especially if we start giving out townreads for it. If you find coming under suspicion so unpleasant that you just want to get lynched to get away from it (and to be able to say "I told you so" to whoever suspected you) then perhaps Mafia is not the game for you. (JarJar's position was quite awkward since I believe he wasn't around for most of D2 to defend himself. Therefore, I don't blame him - but even if his absense wasn't his fault, that didn't help us stop a mislynch.) | ||
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
On December 03 2013 16:37 raynpelikoneet wrote: Actually i do not think town was playing well for the first half of D1. Yes they were right, but for wrong reasons. Based on a case that was answered and noone updated their read on Rean after that, just said "but he is scum". Well it's hard to definitively say whether the reasons were right or not. Only Rean could really tell us for sure. But given that town moved off of a town wagon (Aquanim) onto a scum one (Rean) I'm inclined to think they were doing something right. And I felt the atmosphere was mostly constructive up until that point. Rayn I think you can make some good reads and sometimes look pretty smart, but presuming that you are right and everyone else in town is wrong to the point where you refuse to let town have their lynch is a bit much. I think you have to be more willing to concede the possibility that you are wrong (this goes for everyone). | ||
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