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Civility Please |
United States22154 Posts
The Feel of the Game
Originally this was going to go in the original thread, but I think in the interest of gaining emotional distance, we'd better do this in a separate thread.
There are two principal things I want to talk about before I delve into an analysis of day 1.
An atmosphere of rot and Inflated Egos. Lets start talking about the rotten atmosphere
One of the things I noticed this game, both in the the game itself and in the surrounding quicktopics, was a constant, toxic atmosphere. No one ever said "wow X played well" it was always "wow Y is such a MORONIC DOUCHECUNT!", while its easy to assign the blame of this two one or two people, that would be incorrect, while one or two people can have a strong effect on atmosphere, even a single positive figure can reverse that trend. Its highly disappointing to me, to watch both people who are involved in the game, and thus emotionally invested, and people who aren't, contribute to this general sense of negativity. This is a problem, because it isn't just this game, it feels like a persistent game, mostly based around people not letting grudges from old games go. Atmosphere like this is why my games include wisdom of the crowds, so it can be settled pregame (and why from now on, I'll use a fixed replacement list, so that they can get WotCed out if the group desires as well). The bottom line is this, the only way threads are going to get better if there's an attitude change from *all* of us, not just the people involved directly with a game, otherwise games are going to continue spiraling into pits of doom where the atmosphere is so poisonous that no one can learn anything after the game is over because everyone hates each other. Its especially heinous when it causes people to want to no longer play. We're a small community, making people feel intimidated and worthless and leading them out is utterly unacceptable. I've seen it before, communities where the "vets" were so bitter and harsh no one joined any more. Lets not do that, because I know I don't really want to be a member of a community that drives out people based on their performance in a game, or god forbid, for not being able to be around at the arbitrary deadline. Remember, its a game, losing does not mean your family will be eaten by rabid badgermoles, nor will you be deported to Siberia, its just a dot in a statistic.
This segues in to our next point, which is the incredible ego some players are developing, which blinds them to any perspective different from their own. I don't care if you're lynching scum 93% of the time, and if you can sit at your computer playing mafia 18 hours of every day, that doesn't make you a better person or a more important community member than anyone else, and it doesn't give you the right to lord over other people and tell them that they are awful at mafia, regardless of how true or untrue it may be. Its an easy trap to fall into, trivially easy, to become enamored of one's own play, regardless of its skill, and justify every decision as wonderful and amazing, since you understand your own thought process. One of the hardest things we all have to do, is set aside that ego, and consider that other people may be right. This means, blaming oneself for your defeat, even if you're the last scum in the endgame fighting against a mod confirmed bulletproof vigilante, if you lose, you still blame yourself and try to find ways to improve. It hurts to set one's ego aside, to admit that "hey, maybe shooting Ver as a vigilante was unwise". While ego might be an useful tool during a game, as it allows you to push the town in the direction you want and keeps you from being swayed from your points, it can also be incredibly harmful, as you get stuck on your reads and wind up ignoring what could be obvious scum. I think everyone could use practicing this game, in the postgame and eventually in actual games. Towns work better when people are willing to *listen* to each other, and scum can seem suddenly town by pretending to listen as well. The bottom line is this, as long as you're holding on to the idea that you're gods gift to mafia, you will never find out what you have done wrong, and you'll stay as whatever kind of player you currently are, be that mediocre or fantastic, while other players rise above you. This basically destroys any chance of player level ever improving, and feeds back into the poisonous atmosphere. The only way to get good, is to read what players say about you, and try to learn from it. This isn't just addressed to players, it affects hosts, analysts and coaches, letting go of the ego while analyzing and providing feedback is really important, as it avoids confrontation. Confrontation leads to people ignoring your points, since telling someone "You pototaomongerer, you *never* claim Tassalgor in this game! Fool!" means they're going to automatically reject your advice.
These are the general main problems I saw when reading the thread, feel free to discuss them, and other general issues you might have felt, and tomorrow we begin talking about day 1 specifically.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic.
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I think it's completely spot on.
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United States22154 Posts
On December 04 2013 01:42 marvellosity wrote:
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic.
We had one player quit mafia because of how he was treated this game, and at least one person got told to "go replace" because of the fact he couldn't make the deadlines. Not to mention the posts like "X should quit mafia" "Y should go play somewhere else" and "I will lose all respect for Z if he isn't the alignment I think he is".
I'm talking about it because I think its a problem, but I'm happy to hear solutions or alternative explanations <3
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
The only reason I cared about anything in this game is because I think Onegu is a fine, honest fellow and no-one should have to put up with what he put up with in the game. Other than that I don't really have much more to add.
On December 04 2013 01:49 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:42 marvellosity wrote:
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic. We had one player quit mafia because of how he was treated this game, and at least one person got told to "go replace" because of the fact he couldn't make the deadlines. Not to mention the posts like "X should quit mafia" "Y should go play somewhere else" and "I will lose all respect for Z if he isn't the alignment I think he is". I'm talking about it because I think its a problem, but I'm happy to hear solutions or alternative explanations <3
Honestly I expected you to warn in-game about some of this stuff, I'm curious why you chose not to?
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Marv if you're only going to use this thread as a medium to fire shots at me, please go away. Thank you.
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United States22154 Posts
On December 04 2013 01:50 marvellosity wrote:The only reason I cared about anything in this game is because I think Onegu is a fine, honest fellow and no-one should have to put up with what he put up with in the game. Other than that I don't really have much more to add. Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:49 GMarshal wrote:On December 04 2013 01:42 marvellosity wrote:
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic. We had one player quit mafia because of how he was treated this game, and at least one person got told to "go replace" because of the fact he couldn't make the deadlines. Not to mention the posts like "X should quit mafia" "Y should go play somewhere else" and "I will lose all respect for Z if he isn't the alignment I think he is". I'm talking about it because I think its a problem, but I'm happy to hear solutions or alternative explanations <3 Honestly I expected you to warn in-game about some of this stuff, I'm curious why you chose not to?
I was at MLG and than it was thanksgiving, it was also rather hard to find specific posts when most of the issue was with tone. Its really easy for me to warn for "Moron", a little less for "You aren't putting enough effort into the game". I'm going to do warnings and bans for specifics when I finish going through the thread for analysis anyway.
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Even if you are a competitive person, it is helpful to focus on being correct, or accurate, rather than getting too invested in whether other players listen to your cases.
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On December 04 2013 01:49 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:42 marvellosity wrote:
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic. We had one player quit mafia because of how he was treated this game, and at least one person got told to "go replace" because of the fact he couldn't make the deadlines. Not to mention the posts like "X should quit mafia" "Y should go play somewhere else" and "I will lose all respect for Z if he isn't the alignment I think he is". I'm talking about it because I think its a problem, but I'm happy to hear solutions or alternative explanations <3
was it corazon?
if so I wouldn't worry to much, he quits mafia forever every week.
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United States22154 Posts
On December 04 2013 02:00 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:49 GMarshal wrote:On December 04 2013 01:42 marvellosity wrote:
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic. We had one player quit mafia because of how he was treated this game, and at least one person got told to "go replace" because of the fact he couldn't make the deadlines. Not to mention the posts like "X should quit mafia" "Y should go play somewhere else" and "I will lose all respect for Z if he isn't the alignment I think he is". I'm talking about it because I think its a problem, but I'm happy to hear solutions or alternative explanations <3 was it corazon? if so I wouldn't worry to much, he quits mafia forever every week.
No, jampidampi
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Uncalled for, Dandel
I said nothing demeaning to jampi so don't go blaming it on me.
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United States22154 Posts
On December 04 2013 02:05 cDgCorazon wrote:
Uncalled for, Dandel
I said nothing demeaning to jampi so don't go blaming it on me.
1.) This isn't about blame, I was very cautious not to name names when writing this post, its a call to action, for future games.
2.) Please stop taking everything super personally ^_^
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I don't think that is possible after having everyone in the forum call you an asshole.
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11589 Posts
If I was unfairly critical in anything I said, I apologize, but I mean what I wrote. I used to be a bad player, and now I'm pretty decent at town. I know how to improve. If you disagree with how I said what I said, I suppose I understand, but I mean it truthfully when I say that it was fair criticism.
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On December 04 2013 02:02 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 02:00 Dandel Ion wrote:On December 04 2013 01:49 GMarshal wrote:On December 04 2013 01:42 marvellosity wrote:
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic. We had one player quit mafia because of how he was treated this game, and at least one person got told to "go replace" because of the fact he couldn't make the deadlines. Not to mention the posts like "X should quit mafia" "Y should go play somewhere else" and "I will lose all respect for Z if he isn't the alignment I think he is". I'm talking about it because I think its a problem, but I'm happy to hear solutions or alternative explanations <3 was it corazon? if so I wouldn't worry to much, he quits mafia forever every week. No, jampidampi
Really?
I don't recall him being on the receiving end of any vitriol?
Thats a shame though. His early reads were quite good.
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I think Mafia can have some of the same potential problems as DotA. The games are very long, players may invest a lot of their time and feelings into it, and elitism is such an easy trap for more experienced players.
On the other hand, I can also understand. I remember being angry at one fellow townie who made a really suspicious move and got lynched instead of a Mafia player at the last minutes. I was also slightly angry at a host whose miscommunication caused me to be Vigi shot.
I think the newbie games are a good idea and make it easier for new players to start playing. Maybe there should be some further exploration of this idea - such as a new game type between newbie games and normal (sometimes harsh) games?
Well, that Wisdom of the Crowds -system also seems like a good idea. At least it might be able to help with the most extreme cases of hate / bitterness...
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On December 04 2013 02:26 Xatalos wrote:
I think the newbie games are a good idea and make it easier for new players to start playing. Maybe there should be some further exploration of this idea - such as a new game type between newbie games and normal (sometimes harsh) games?
Very big "yes please" for "mid level" games. I feel completely useless in the normal games and would love to play games where I could actually get something done. Would love some coaching too, I only got to utilize a coach (as town) in one of my newbies (once I was too stupid to realize how useful that is, twice I was scum). Or even post game analysis.
Also, sorry for replacing out, and especially not doing it earlier. I knew there was a risk of having to work extra hours but thought this wouldn't start before I'd know for sure.
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On December 04 2013 01:49 Chezinu wrote:
I <3 you guys.
Kudos GMarsh and u Chezinu, and ditto Chezinu...
Marv I am also on the brink of being all "imma just host stuff now", GMarsh is right. However my <3 of the game runz deep!
I give my sincerest apology to whomever put mafia aside, I baited the atmosphere in this game a little... And as scum I was inherently creating it.
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On December 04 2013 01:50 marvellosity wrote:The only reason I cared about anything in this game is because I think Onegu is a fine, honest fellow and no-one should have to put up with what he put up with in the game. Other than that I don't really have much more to add. Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:49 GMarshal wrote:On December 04 2013 01:42 marvellosity wrote:
I actually think this post is unnecessarily pessimistic. We had one player quit mafia because of how he was treated this game, and at least one person got told to "go replace" because of the fact he couldn't make the deadlines. Not to mention the posts like "X should quit mafia" "Y should go play somewhere else" and "I will lose all respect for Z if he isn't the alignment I think he is". I'm talking about it because I think its a problem, but I'm happy to hear solutions or alternative explanations <3 Honestly I expected you to warn in-game about some of this stuff, I'm curious why you chose not to?
Ditto. Onegu is awesome even if my phone always wants to make it ONEGU
He was the first Svengali and I fear him as town every game ;D
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EPT![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-USWsrkP_VJg/UT0cPbTj5lI/AAAAAAAEIfs/uVMxTkj9MY8/s1600/mafia-auto-tag.jpg)
