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United States22154 Posts
After the conclusion of Nomination Mafia, I thought it would be beneficial to make this thread. The point of this thread is to control and organize how shadowing works, so that games don't get overwhelmed with everyone shadowing and so that hosts and players are kept in the loop.
Shadowing - What is shadowing?
Shadowing is participating alongside one of the players of a game of Mafia. Think of it as sort of a reverse coaching. In traditional coaching, you as the player are asking for tips and advice from your coach in regards to your role and the game-state. In the case of shadowing, you are in direct contact with ONE player with the goal of getting insight into how that player perceives and plays their current game. The shadow never interacts directly with the game/thread or others involved with the game. It is a one-to-one relationship with a single player in a game.
Hosts reserve the right to deny allowing shadows in their games. Please respect the hosts' wishes.
Rules of Shadowing
Pre-game:
- Shadowing must be cleared with the game host.
- You may choose to request being a shadow with a player of your own choice.
- You may not receive the Observer QT.
- You may not receive or know the alignment of any other player in the game.
- You may not disclose the interactions you have with your shadow to anyone outside of the host and the player you are shadowing until the game has ended.
- Remember that the player you are shadowing is doing you a great service!
During the game:
- Do not tell people who you are shadowing
- At any point the player you are shadowing may have to prioritize rl or actually playing the game, at that point, you may be put on the back burner, be accommodating.
- You may only communicate with the person you are shadowing with respect to the game
- Its your job to keep in touch with your mentor. Use any resources you deem amicable. PM, private QT, Skype, etc.
Post-game:
- Disclose your shadowing and share anything you feel is relevant.
- Ideas for things to talk about include how your views of the game were different from the players'.
- Share analysis / tips you have learned after the game has ended, so that others may also benefit.
Rules for the player being shadowed
- Don't give the person you are shadowing any knowledge other than that of your alignment, and if you want role.
- Don't talk about your shadow in the thread
- Try to keep in touch with the shadow and keep them informed. Remember, you are essentially a mentor.
- If anything looks odd or goes wrong, it is your job to get inform the host as fast as possible.
Each shadow team must be cleared by the host to be able to shadow in their game. This thread will keep a list of players who want to be shadowed, and people who want to shadow so we can get them in touch with each other and then in touch with the host. This can also serve as a sort of queue if the demand is high enough.
Mentors:
GMarshal
supersoft
GreYMisT
grush57
Promethelax
VisceraEyes
Blazinghand
Shadows:
slOosh
warbaby
Promethelax
Post here, or PM me to get on the list. With any luck this will raise the general level of play, and allow newer players a way to get a better insight into the game.
(credit for the revamped op goes to ObviousOne, who re-wrote it for me)
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What is the difference between shadowing and personal coaching?
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Sounds like its the exact opposite.
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United States22154 Posts
On February 24 2013 09:33 Acrofales wrote:
What is the difference between shadowing and personal coaching?
When you get personal coaching, its a veteran advising an inexperienced player, when you shadow its a newer player watching a veteran player playing ,following their thought processes, and learning from that.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
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sounds pretty good... this is so much better than coaching. I am /in :-P
if someone wants to shadow me ^_^
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If someone shadows me, there will be 6 more weeks of winter.
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I want to shadow if I count as newer player!
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GM ill join in on this if thats alright.
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I'd like to sign up to shadow an experienced player, please. Sounds like a fun way to learn! 
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I want to shadow my self.
When it goes into hollywood production they can call it "The mind of a madman"
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I'd be happy shadowing or being shadowed. Depends on the level of the other player involved of course. This s a really excellent idea and has the potential to improve our play as a whole which I'm quite excited by.
If there are enough takers on both sides of this I think it could be valuable to host an all shadow game. I'd be interested in helping with such a game by playing, hosting or shadowing.
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United Kingdom36158 Posts
Sure, I'm in.
slOosh, I'll PM you when I roll mafia...
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I want to shadow Cheesecake.
We may end up randomly switching to "coaching" and/or cybersex though.
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And for what it's worth, I feel like giving the shadow the names of teammates in the case of a scum shadow helps cut down the influence of having a shadow has on the player. I said this in Nomination, but no one responded. Is that not really a concern? Because that's something I thought of at the beginning of the game (see Obvious' post) and something slOosh picked up on immediately on hearing about it too.
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On February 26 2013 07:49 VisceraEyes wrote:
And for what it's worth, I feel like giving the shadow the names of teammates in the case of a scum shadow helps cut down the influence of having a shadow has on the player. I said this in Nomination, but no one responded. Is that not really a concern? Because that's something I thought of at the beginning of the game (see Obvious' post) and something slOosh picked up on immediately on hearing about it too.
I think the problem with that is the shadowing player doesn't get to improve in any real way. Like scum is about acting and not being in the game he doesn't get to act. The idea, as far as I can tell, is to give the shadowing player a chance to work on analysis with a dedicated assistant. I think that falls apart if he has the whole scum team. I could be wrong though.
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Well when I shadowed Obvious I released the team incrementally so he had a chance to analyze too, but when an observational advantage would be most powerful (late-game) he had as much info as I did so his observations would mean less to me as a player because his viewpoint isn't objective anymore.
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I had the option to ask for confirms on my reads. I went slowly. After D1 I had one confirmed town read and D2 one confirmed scum read. VE didn't volunteer any information I wasn't ready to assimilate until around the Snarfs bus was in full swing. Djo / Debears was the wildcard much like Palmar would have been had he not been voted early. To be fair to myself, I did have Djo down as scum in my first read.
Something to keep in mind is that not every student is going to learn the same way. For myself, I need immersion and first hand experience to absorb and master a system. Being a part of a game gives you a much more vested interest in keeping up with reading and analysis and, at least for me, put me into a game mindset as opposed to just reading a game in observer mode. The interaction / engagement were a huge boon in reading along.
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If you really think about it, shadowing is no different from hydra. Or to put it another way, a hydra could be played in such an effective way as well (dunno if people do this or not but seems really strong to do it). Along that similar vein, I would consider having the benefits of a shadow similar to the benefits of having a hydra to interact with, the "handicap" on both ends being some sort of time / commitment deficit and a skill level deficit respectively.
I'm not too sure where a good balance would be - this might just come from testing these things out and getting good feedback from the shadows and players themselves. Maybe run a "shadow mafia mini" where everyone gets a shadow? I'd be down to host / play / shadow for that.
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I would be down for shadowing in a only shadow game, to see how it will go.
I would think that a town player would gain more of an advantage than a scum player though, because the shadow is a 3rd party that isnt really involved with the game, and could give a different perspective.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I offer myself up as a mentor!
There is much to learn from me.
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If you're giving MSPaint lessons, I'll shadow you. <3
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I don't understand how people are arguing against this on the basis that it gives players an advantage. There was no rule against going and asking outside players for advice/coaching. This is nothing like that given that the shadowing player is trying to learn, so it's even less of an advantage.
I think this is a great idea.
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I shadowed Prome in British Empire Mini II. Lackadaisical summary post here.
I agree with ObviousOne, shadowing is much more useful to me as a newbie than just observing a game. It gives me a vested interest in analyzing the game, and gives me someone to bounce my ideas off of (without worrying about saying stupid things in the obs qt).
I do think shadowing could give players an advantage -- in a way it's like a secret hydra. I think it's really important to PM the host of the game to get permission before shadowing -- this way the host can deny the request if it's obviously imba.
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United Kingdom36158 Posts
if it's 'obviously imba' then the person doing the shadowing probably doesn't need to be shadowing.
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Shadowing as a concept does not function in the same manner as a hydra. You do not share an account or tell your shadowed player what to post. The function of the service is to ask questions and gain insight into a players actions. In this manner you can be more specific with questions such as:
What was the purpose of X post?
What would the result of doing Y be in this situation?
Shouldn't you do Z instead or why not?
The examples are simple but if you are a newer player you're not likely to significantly alter the shadoweded player's play. If a shadow does something to help their mentor improve how is that bad in the long run? GMarshal commented that shadowing would be a great way to increase the level of play and I don't see how that's bad as long as there's no cheating occurring.
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Yeah, I don't think it's a bad thing, and it's certainly not 1:1 analogous to a hydra like you say. And Marv, I agree, but I think it's good for the host to know what's up, in case the system is somehow abused (intentionally or not).
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
As long as the learners aren't like super pros it's all good honestly
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I had a great time with it. It forces the shadowed to player to explain their thoughts in a way that a new player will understand instead of all wrapped up in dozens of games of back and forth with the other players. I allowed me to express my thoughts to myself in a cleaner way and take strong control of myself and the town. Along with that I really enjoyed how much it prevented me being lazy because even during silent nights there was a little bird asking me why I thought what I thought.
I also hope I helped warbaby learn about the joys of both meta and mentality. My favourite ways to find scum and town. As he said I think it is probably really helpful for new players to shadow more than one experienced player since we all have different ways of doing things.
I had fun. I think war had fun and its an experience I would love to repeat. If anyone wants to shadow me in any game ever just send me a pm and I'll be happy to participate.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
What were your thoughts, btw, on the idea of a "shadowing QT"? I liked the idea of coaching QTs and perhaps compiling shadowing QTs in the Op of this thread could provide an additional resource to new players
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On March 10 2013 06:39 Blazinghand wrote:
What were your thoughts, btw, on the idea of a "shadowing QT"? I liked the idea of coaching QTs and perhaps compiling shadowing QTs in the Op of this thread could provide an additional resource to new players
This point may actually somewhat be useful in feeding the podcast discussions. Having shadow teams use QTs to record most of their contact (even if it's just pasted in from other places like PMs and the like) could become aggregate data from which to draw conclusions about common fallacies/failures in newbie play and invent something of a Ver's guide to analysis that can encapsulate further the way players should think (and post and question others) and really start bringing up the level of newbie play. Like it seems common for new players to focus on finding scum tells or scum claims that are really not too typically common. Looking for patterns in the questions they have that may never get voiced in the threads / post game because of disinterest or embarrassment can be alleviated if they are allowed discourse on those topics in a 1-on-1 environment. And they can be asked immediately instead of festering or going forgotten.
+1 shadowing QT idea and aggregation for meta-analysis.
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On March 10 2013 06:39 Blazinghand wrote:
What were your thoughts, btw, on the idea of a "shadowing QT"? I liked the idea of coaching QTs and perhaps compiling shadowing QTs in the Op of this thread could provide an additional resource to new players
I liked it. One minor problem which I didn't think of until after we started though was that war and I were both in the obs of LX while you the host and Vivax the player and DrH the player were alive in it. We could, theoretically have slipped on our knowledge of their alignments in a qt you had access to.
I think shadowing qts being collected and disseminated as a newbie learning resource would be excellent.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On March 10 2013 06:51 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 06:39 Blazinghand wrote:
What were your thoughts, btw, on the idea of a "shadowing QT"? I liked the idea of coaching QTs and perhaps compiling shadowing QTs in the Op of this thread could provide an additional resource to new players I liked it. One minor problem which I didn't think of until after we started though was that war and I were both in the obs of LX while you the host and Vivax the player and DrH the player were alive in it. We could, theoretically have slipped on our knowledge of their alignments in a qt you had access to. I think shadowing qts being collected and disseminated as a newbie learning resource would be excellent.
The same sort of thing is of course possible if you and warbaby were the two scum in British, though, for example. Such is the nature of being in more than one game at a time.
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United Kingdom36158 Posts
On March 10 2013 06:39 Blazinghand wrote:
What were your thoughts, btw, on the idea of a "shadowing QT"? I liked the idea of coaching QTs and perhaps compiling shadowing QTs in the Op of this thread could provide an additional resource to new players
i would say i share a personal QT with a few players on this site. warbaby is probably shadowing me in Personality, and we'll use the QT that we already have up and running. I don't really want this QT shared around after games; mostly I have QTs for people so I can talk about things I only want them to see. For me, QTs have always been a pretty personal thing. Anyone who's read my scumgame QTs can attest that I let it all hang out in scumQTs (and generally I'd prefer if they weren't released, but I understand that for the sake of the game that they are released)
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I meant like a specific shadowing QT rather than a personal QT. Kind of like a hydra QT
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United Kingdom36158 Posts
yeah, but i'm not making a QT for someone when i already have a QT with them 
also i generally find things like coaching/shadowing quite personal anyways. like I share PMs or talk on IRC with several players on this site, and i'm talking with them and not everyone else. that might just be me, though.
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oh I only saw this thread now. I'm going to shadow the fuck out of marv next time he plays something normal, no matter if he wants me to or not :3
Is this only going one way or is fine both ways? Because I'd like to talk with the guy in question and have a discussion about it including my own thoughts instead of just listening to. As in: Am I supposed to not give away my thoughts on something because that would be considered help ?
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You don't have a personal QT with me. [/butthurt]
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United Kingdom36158 Posts
you really don't wanna see my thoughts, babe.
edit: that was @ toad
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On March 10 2013 08:02 VisceraEyes wrote:
You don't have a personal QT with me. [/butthurt]
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United Kingdom36158 Posts
On March 10 2013 08:02 VisceraEyes wrote:
You don't have a personal QT with me. [/butthurt]
I like to think we communicate fairly regularly, and more importantly, enjoyably, without one ^^
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United Kingdom36158 Posts
look, everyone knows i hate everybody, but i'll still talk to anybody.
actually i love VE but i hate everyone else. deal with it.
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On March 10 2013 08:05 marvellosity wrote:
look, everyone knows i hate everybody, but i'll still talk to anybody.
actually i love VE but i hate everyone else. deal with it.
*sobs*
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It's fine. It's like finding out that you weren't invited to a party, but afterward found out that it was a timeshare scheme and not being there saved me 200 bucks and a case of the crabs.
Quicktopic also uses <> instead of [] which is not only clumsy, but silly looking too imo imo.
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I'd like to sign up to be a shadow.
However I cannot fathom paying attention to more than 1 game at a time, so my first opportunity to shadow might only be after Personality Mafia (unless I get killed or something).
It sounds like a really good idea =)
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I'd be interested in shadowing as well.
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QT uses html which is actually quite awesome because you can format your posts way better than on TL. I think I'm the only one who does that though.
But yeah skype > QT any second. Just a (slightly offtopic) question: is personal coaching without telling hosts allowed? Because frankly the OP makes it look like it's not and I've been told by multiple people that it's fine as long as the guy in question isn't in the game himself (duh).
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I'd consider it a subset of hydra-ing. telling the host is probably good because the host might be like "hey toad it turns out john is scum in my game blah blah" or something if he doesn't know you're involved in a game
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On March 10 2013 08:35 Blazinghand wrote:
I'd consider it a subset of hydra-ing. telling the host is probably good because the host might be like "hey toad it turns out john is scum in my game blah blah" or something if he doesn't know you're involved in a game
+ Show Spoiler [OffTopic-Question] +well if that happens you obviously stop it but I sometimes get the occasional "hey are you reading game-XXXXX? Could you read my case over *here* and tell me if I'm paranoid and my case doesn't make sense at all or what your thoughts about it are" when I'm not in the game myself and I never told anybody about it because I heard a lot of people are doing that and it's fine.
I just never read a statement about it.
spoilered it. Guess I'm too offtopic here, sorry
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On March 10 2013 08:33 Toadesstern wrote:
QT uses html which is actually quite awesome because you can format your posts way better than on TL. I think I'm the only one who does that though.
But yeah skype > QT any second. Just a (slightly offtopic) question: is personal coaching without telling hosts allowed? Because frankly the OP makes it look like it's not and I've been told by multiple people that it's fine as long as the guy in question isn't in the game himself (duh).
This is more tailored to new players reaching upward. I haven't heard of personally arranged coaching being outright forbidden but most games only go so far as to say there will be none provided. I'm sure if there's any doubts about it you could just ask the hosts since they are in charge =]
Probably safe as long as you're following the same basic principles. Steer clear of outside information. I wouldn't want to have mentor/coach who was in turn coached on their responses by the activity in obs QT or other PMs. Keep it honest and fair. Maybe break that thought out into a new thread? It may be more common than some would think? I'd be interested in how deep into mafia some folks are and how they tap resources for minds or rage venting, etc.
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On March 10 2013 08:32 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I'd be interested in shadowing as well.
u could shadow me.
I teach u how play scum.
hue.
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On March 10 2013 08:52 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 08:32 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I'd be interested in shadowing as well. u could shadow me. I teach u how play scum. hue.
You could teach me how to not give a shit about a game.
Check and mate.
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On March 10 2013 08:58 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 08:52 Dandel Ion wrote:On March 10 2013 08:32 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I'd be interested in shadowing as well. u could shadow me. I teach u how play scum. hue. You could teach me how to not give a shit about a game. Check and mate.
That's the same thing!
I'm a 2-in-1 deal!
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On March 10 2013 08:46 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 08:35 Blazinghand wrote:
I'd consider it a subset of hydra-ing. telling the host is probably good because the host might be like "hey toad it turns out john is scum in my game blah blah" or something if he doesn't know you're involved in a game + Show Spoiler [OffTopic-Question] +well if that happens you obviously stop it but I sometimes get the occasional "hey are you reading game-XXXXX? Could you read my case over *here* and tell me if I'm paranoid and my case doesn't make sense at all or what your thoughts about it are" when I'm not in the game myself and I never told anybody about it because I heard a lot of people are doing that and it's fine.
I just never read a statement about it. spoilered it. Guess I'm too offtopic here, sorry
If I ever found out that someone did this in a game I was hosting without letting me know, I would modkill them. That's pretty much like being a hydra.
Telling people what you're doing or playing as is one thing. But asking them to give you advice and analyze the game for you is not ok.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On March 10 2013 09:02 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 08:46 Toadesstern wrote:On March 10 2013 08:35 Blazinghand wrote:
I'd consider it a subset of hydra-ing. telling the host is probably good because the host might be like "hey toad it turns out john is scum in my game blah blah" or something if he doesn't know you're involved in a game + Show Spoiler [OffTopic-Question] +well if that happens you obviously stop it but I sometimes get the occasional "hey are you reading game-XXXXX? Could you read my case over *here* and tell me if I'm paranoid and my case doesn't make sense at all or what your thoughts about it are" when I'm not in the game myself and I never told anybody about it because I heard a lot of people are doing that and it's fine.
I just never read a statement about it. spoilered it. Guess I'm too offtopic here, sorry If I ever found out that someone did this in a game I was hosting without letting me know, I would modkill them. That's pretty much like being a hydra. Telling people what you're doing or playing as is one thing. But asking them to give you advice and analyze the game for you is not ok.
nobody ever illicitly asks _me_ for advice ;_; i have no friends
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crimebuddies are best buddies.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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On March 10 2013 09:27 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 09:02 HiroPro wrote:On March 10 2013 08:46 Toadesstern wrote:On March 10 2013 08:35 Blazinghand wrote:
I'd consider it a subset of hydra-ing. telling the host is probably good because the host might be like "hey toad it turns out john is scum in my game blah blah" or something if he doesn't know you're involved in a game + Show Spoiler [OffTopic-Question] +well if that happens you obviously stop it but I sometimes get the occasional "hey are you reading game-XXXXX? Could you read my case over *here* and tell me if I'm paranoid and my case doesn't make sense at all or what your thoughts about it are" when I'm not in the game myself and I never told anybody about it because I heard a lot of people are doing that and it's fine.
I just never read a statement about it. spoilered it. Guess I'm too offtopic here, sorry If I ever found out that someone did this in a game I was hosting without letting me know, I would modkill them. That's pretty much like being a hydra. Telling people what you're doing or playing as is one thing. But asking them to give you advice and analyze the game for you is not ok. nobody ever illicitly asks _me_ for advice ;_; i have no friends
 I think they're scared of you.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On March 10 2013 09:35 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 09:27 Blazinghand wrote:On March 10 2013 09:02 HiroPro wrote:On March 10 2013 08:46 Toadesstern wrote:On March 10 2013 08:35 Blazinghand wrote:
I'd consider it a subset of hydra-ing. telling the host is probably good because the host might be like "hey toad it turns out john is scum in my game blah blah" or something if he doesn't know you're involved in a game + Show Spoiler [OffTopic-Question] +well if that happens you obviously stop it but I sometimes get the occasional "hey are you reading game-XXXXX? Could you read my case over *here* and tell me if I'm paranoid and my case doesn't make sense at all or what your thoughts about it are" when I'm not in the game myself and I never told anybody about it because I heard a lot of people are doing that and it's fine.
I just never read a statement about it. spoilered it. Guess I'm too offtopic here, sorry If I ever found out that someone did this in a game I was hosting without letting me know, I would modkill them. That's pretty much like being a hydra. Telling people what you're doing or playing as is one thing. But asking them to give you advice and analyze the game for you is not ok. nobody ever illicitly asks _me_ for advice ;_; i have no friends I think they're scared of you.
why would they be scared of me rofl i'm always so kind and gentle
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What the fuck? Like, what in the literal penis-inside-vagina fuck? How can you be so self-aware of playing like shitty dick and AT THE SAME TIME, IN THE SAME BREATH, DO A VOTE WITHOUT A REAL CASE? Like, I get it, austinmcc hasn't contributed, but that's not why people are up his ass. What about his reaction to the prplhz case? What about his subsequent defense and explanation? Did you actually read his filter or did you pull a lurker vote out of your ass? If you're gonna throw away your vote on a non-wagon, AT LEAST EXPLAIN YOURSELF. The other two did thatpoorly, but at least they made vague, groping attempts at it. I don't even know what your deal is.
I don't even know what to say about you three other than that if you really are town, if your mothers were reading this mafia game they'd be crying because she'd raised a useless townie
I don't think gentle when I think of you lol. I remember stuff like this. But it's still hilarious to read.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On March 10 2013 09:44 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +What the fuck? Like, what in the literal penis-inside-vagina fuck? How can you be so self-aware of playing like shitty dick and AT THE SAME TIME, IN THE SAME BREATH, DO A VOTE WITHOUT A REAL CASE? Like, I get it, austinmcc hasn't contributed, but that's not why people are up his ass. What about his reaction to the prplhz case? What about his subsequent defense and explanation? Did you actually read his filter or did you pull a lurker vote out of your ass? If you're gonna throw away your vote on a non-wagon, AT LEAST EXPLAIN YOURSELF. The other two did thatpoorly, but at least they made vague, groping attempts at it. I don't even know what your deal is.
I don't even know what to say about you three other than that if you really are town, if your mothers were reading this mafia game they'd be crying because she'd raised a useless townie I don't think gentle when I think of you lol. I remember stuff like this. But it's still hilarious to read.
i'm so gentle
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On March 10 2013 09:02 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 08:46 Toadesstern wrote:On March 10 2013 08:35 Blazinghand wrote:
I'd consider it a subset of hydra-ing. telling the host is probably good because the host might be like "hey toad it turns out john is scum in my game blah blah" or something if he doesn't know you're involved in a game + Show Spoiler [OffTopic-Question] +well if that happens you obviously stop it but I sometimes get the occasional "hey are you reading game-XXXXX? Could you read my case over *here* and tell me if I'm paranoid and my case doesn't make sense at all or what your thoughts about it are" when I'm not in the game myself and I never told anybody about it because I heard a lot of people are doing that and it's fine.
I just never read a statement about it. spoilered it. Guess I'm too offtopic here, sorry If I ever found out that someone did this in a game I was hosting without letting me know, I would modkill them. That's pretty much like being a hydra. Telling people what you're doing or playing as is one thing. But asking them to give you advice and analyze the game for you is not ok.
people do this all the time, it's not against any rules.
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We talked about it in PMs. I kinda misunderstood what he meant.
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[edits: tweaks on words]
Before I start for the avoidance of doubt, I will be categorical.
I believe the game of mafia as experienced by people on this site would be aided by the appropriate use of shadowing/mentoring.
Doing so will both mitigate the difficulties new players find in playing this sometimes emotionally charged game, it will also tend to generate a more capable group of players that will make it a more challenging and hence fun game for all. The increased rate of learning and the calmer perspective should also increase the retention rate. Many(&more) benefits are plausible.
While there are risks, as described below the concept of shadowing and mentoring and the fact that that causes some "information to leak", is not unique, and so other external social interactions will also probably sometimes cause some information to unavoidably leak.
The trick to minimise harm is to ensure that the information does not leak into the game. (or rather the minimum information). My solution for that is if at any time it is plausible I have information that leaked I act as if I do have the information. (thus it is not even possible to deduce if information actually leaked due to my actions. Why do that? Some information is more likely to leak than others. Even information about whether or not information leaked is information...!)
Thus during LX whether or not any information leaked from Aqua to me, I simply don't post anything anywhere. In that way both the information and even the meta information about whether or not information leaked cannot leak further. While that may seem stupidly excessive to some people, it is what I do. What is this leaking? During LIX, in under 5 mins of talking about other RL stuff Aqua just 'knew' I was scum. Aqua was co-hosting British and now that I have seen that sceanrio, in that scenario nothing will leak ever. I suspect over time the leaking while playing will subside a lot.
Leaking when real world contacts exist is hardest to plug; Usually in my view impossible to do so completely.
One reason I think, information leaks even via normal social online text interactions, is lack of awareness,
To me, examples of puzzles such as the Monty Hall problem, where many humans find it quite challenging to identify that there was indeed an information transfer, demonstrate that it is likely many humans will not realise just how much information leaks by what methods. (I have lost it, but in a thread here on TL, there is a whole class of meta information puzzles (typically mathematicians locked in dungeons. Visible Lights over everyone elses head, et al. In these puzzles information is derived not only from action but from the lack of action.)
Consider what happens (not if shadowing but just socially chatting) If I normally chat with you, but then that backs off (gets tight/careful?) while I and you are playing in game X... from your point of view has the conditional probability that I am scum gone up? Well it could also be other real life things taking my time so it cant be certain, but that out of game observation is information. (for players who are sick of rolling scum it might well mean the opposite) If I had an even more challenging and exciting role such as 3P and I stood chance of winning would that (time/willingness to chat outside) be even more indicative.
Once you start considering not just the hard knowledge of I have seen my PM but also the subtle inferential knowledge that scum reads are usually based on, truely stopping information leakage in mafia games is a challenging problem.
My personal solution is, at times when it is true or even just possible that I have knowledge to simply stop posting elsewhere. Thus recently while Aqua played in LX, it was possible information would leak to me so I posted nothing in this thread. As far as I know, nothing in this post indicates anything,(and he is now flipped) however _always_ not posting anything at all certainly conveys no information.
(Well it conveys no information if that decision is only based on the already public knowledge of who is in what game)
You might ask, "Is that an argument that Shadowing is bad as it makes an already potentially leaky information problem worse?" Well in fact given my experience, making shadowing a known and conscious decision might well reduce information leakage as players become more aware of all the ways their other normal social interaction might leak information outside the game thread. I know contemplating the strong potential for leakage of information from Aqua to me has made me ultra careful about what I do outside of a game thread. I now personally have policy of posting nothing anywhere if I am in a game or (have the possibility of) having (oopsies) information about a game. Thus while I wanted to post this message in this thread earlier I did not, as it is possible I had information about Aquas role in LX. + Show Spoiler + In LIX, he guessed mine in <5min of chatter about non mafia related things. By Guessed, I mean lynch with fire certainty.
(oopsies: information I have that I shouldn't but is unavoidable)
On February 24 2013 09:28 GMarshal wrote:
After the conclusion of Nomination Mafia, I thought it would be beneficial to make this thread. The point of this thread is to control and organize how shadowing works, so that games don't get overwhelmed with everyone shadowing and so that hosts and players are kept in the loop.
Shadowing - What is shadowing?
Shadowing is participating alongside one of the players of a game of Mafia. Think of it as sort of a reverse coaching. In traditional coaching, you as the player are asking for tips and advice from your coach in regards to your role and the game-state. In the case of shadowing, you are in direct contact with ONE player with the goal of getting insight into how that player perceives and plays their current game. The shadow never interacts directly with the game/thread or others involved with the game. It is a one-to-one relationship with a single player in a game.
As people may or may not have noticed I sometimes have rather unique view of the world. Shadowing is no different.
While shadowing/mentoring is a thing with a name and a description and it is being discussed, like the concept of tall people it is not exactly defined and there are greynesses. (FYI living vs inanimate, male vs female have similar problems, very few things in the world don't have a spectrum and are strictly categorical.)
I imagine that not everyone that plays this game is sitting in their mothers basement fed intravenously by a hose.
As such most people have outside social RL interactions where they bitch(vent) about stuff in their lives, and one of those things vented about is mafia and the other players in it.
Sometimes the people vented/spoken too have no knowledge, and simply nod wisely (and wish you'd go away).
Sometimes the people vented/spoken too have general knowledge of the game and suggest chilling out a bit.
Sometimes the people vented/spoken too have specific knowledge of the personalities involved.
The problem is if the people spoken to have knowledge of the particular game.
As such various strategies exist to minimise harm done to the game from information leaks to or from a person being shadowed.
If I shadow a player. I will
Not be at real time with the thread and ask questions. The beginning of a night is a better time to ask a towny mentor about what went down before the lynch. (Its also when they are more likely to have free time). Any subtle information transferred into the game by the question, at that point will tend to get diluted out of importance by the hard information from the Nks. If I delay my questions (about say a particular post from before the lynch to after the lynch, the mentor can probably still recall what they thought about it at the time (before they saw the flip) )
Shadowing scum is to me even trickier as i perceive a larger risk of the shadow aiding the scum player than a townie one.
The perspective of noob/shadow player who does not have the handicap of knowing who is scum when guessing which of the scum team mates are are lynch bait, or look townie. If you were approaching endgame any independent observation of how townie anyone looked might be helpful and hence to be avoided.
Thus
If I am shadowing a scum player, unless I knew the entire scum team I wont shadow scum player... I wont do that as my questions as an impartial outside observer provide information about how the rest of the scum team is perceived may have value. For me one of the the tricksiest parts of playing scum was guessing what uninformed(townie) people thought of me or my scum buddies. As scum I felt I had better handle on how scummy the townies thought the other townies were than on how scummy they thought my scum buddies were.
Its basically a convoluted and twisty subject, that clearly more inherently complex than Monty hall problem. As such thinking about it will improve(minimise) information leaks that occur by doing it, but also the leaks that occur via other social communications. Remembering that even severing social communications is communication, highlights just how hard sealing all the information leaks is. Getting so anal retentive about information leaks is also one of the easiest ways I can see to make this game no fun at all. The solution is balance, integrity, and gghf .
I probably have comments about how I think mentoring and shadowing could be most effective, if I manage to formulate those into something useful I suspect i would start a blog page for it as they would side track or fill up the thread as they will contain AxleLogic.
There were other comments about whether or not the Shadowing QT should be public. There are issues with both. if I mentored a player and explained things I might well find it useful to say things I would not state publicly. There are things I ma prepared to state to another player that i believe would be beneficial to them, but I am not prepared to state about another player. I dont think it takes a lot of imagination to think of things you might say to player that would be harmful rude and being a jerk if you said them publicly. Thus the actual definition of what is private and public might be useful.
I can also imagine a time (when i am better) when there might be things i would tell a noob about how I play but would be less keen to tell a peer competitor. There is also just a distinction between my inside voice and my out in public voice.
If I talk in shorthand with one person and there is misunderstanding its easy fixed. If what was initially considered to be private conversation then becomes published, all sorts of ramifications ensue.
Basically I will state that unless the public versus private nature of the conversation is well defined, then any mentoring shadowing conversations I hold will be under the presumption they are public and that would significantly impede the purpose of the process. If the shadowQT is publicly published afterwards I as a shadow/noob could just as easily make a fool of myself by asking the question in /obs and getting a vet answer there. If the shadowQT is published afterwards then while a vet might explain why they really did stuff in game to me, do they really want to tell everybody... I promise I will not be telling everyone all the ways I identify scum.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Yeah or you could just not play a game and shadow at the same time right
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The alternative to public shared info is to be as all-inclusive as you feel comfortable (at the arrangement of you and your shadowed player) in your summary post at the end of the game. Include relevant details that are game-applicable and communicate with your shadow or mentor, one way or the other, on what information you are sharing to ensure both parties are willing to publicize that information.
As to the above: As far as during the game, there are even tells that you can't control when it comes to communication. Do you auto-login to Skype or other messenger programs? You've potentially broadcast that you are on your computer to everyone on your friends list, some of them may even be in the game, which is something that has probably been discussed or dealt with in the past (I saw him posting in other threads, I saw him log onto Skype, I saw him commenting in an Obs QT of another game, and other various comments related to this scenario). All information is information, but not all of it can be easily interpreted and is more along the lines of speculation than actual information in my opinion. As a player I don't assume that just because someone logged into Skype it's actually them at their computer, for instance (made this mistake once and ended up talking to the wrong person on a shared device LOL)
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
My trick is to log into skype and into irc and stuff all the time when I'm afk. I also post in obs QTs when I'm afk. I used to post in threads when I'm afk but people got really mad at me for doing that so I don't do that any more.
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Shadowed Prome in LX, and Marv in Personality 2. Good fun was had, thanks Prome and Marv!
I tried to read that AxleGreaser post, but it's just not gonna happen. I think I might agree with him though?
I'm surprised more people haven't been availing themselves of the shadowing program so far; it's a fun way to learn about the game 
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On March 19 2013 14:36 warbaby wrote:Shadowed Prome in LX, and Marv in Personality 2. Good fun was had, thanks Prome and Marv! I tried to read that AxleGreaser post, but it's just not gonna happen. I think I might agree with him though? I'm surprised more people haven't been availing themselves of the shadowing program so far; it's a fun way to learn about the game
and me in British. Where I was actually useful.
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Don't fret, I already posted about that here.
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United Kingdom36158 Posts
warbaby had to shadow me in my worst game of mafia ever. typical.
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On March 19 2013 22:57 marvellosity wrote:
warbaby had to shadow me in my worst game of mafia ever. typical.
Would you say you were a shadow of your former self perhaps?
hur hur hur
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Hey War, you think you are ever going to in a game again? Or just keep shadowing until you emerge and are no longer Warbaby the grey but warbaby the white. An all powerful, reborn, mafia playing, wizard.
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United Kingdom36158 Posts
On March 20 2013 02:56 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 22:57 marvellosity wrote:
warbaby had to shadow me in my worst game of mafia ever. typical. Would you say you were a shadow of your former self perhaps? hur hur hur
no u
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i feel like this is a bad idea
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United States22154 Posts
On March 20 2013 03:54 Caller wrote:
i feel like this is a bad idea
why?
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On March 20 2013 04:08 GMarshal wrote:why?
can u imagine if someone shadowed me
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If you genuinely don't care about helping players improve then you're free to not sign up as a mentor. Conversely if you do and sign up, I'm confident you'll do your best to ensure that your shadow learns something about the game. It's only as bad an idea as people care to make it.
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United Kingdom36158 Posts
please remove me from the list for now, i need to work on my style by myself for a bit.
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On March 20 2013 04:41 marvellosity wrote:
please remove me from the list for now, i need to work on my style by myself for a bit.
DON'T YOU FUCKING DARE
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On March 10 2013 09:02 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2013 08:46 Toadesstern wrote:On March 10 2013 08:35 Blazinghand wrote:
I'd consider it a subset of hydra-ing. telling the host is probably good because the host might be like "hey toad it turns out john is scum in my game blah blah" or something if he doesn't know you're involved in a game + Show Spoiler [OffTopic-Question] +well if that happens you obviously stop it but I sometimes get the occasional "hey are you reading game-XXXXX? Could you read my case over *here* and tell me if I'm paranoid and my case doesn't make sense at all or what your thoughts about it are" when I'm not in the game myself and I never told anybody about it because I heard a lot of people are doing that and it's fine.
I just never read a statement about it. spoilered it. Guess I'm too offtopic here, sorry If I ever found out that someone did this in a game I was hosting without letting me know, I would modkill them. That's pretty much like being a hydra. Telling people what you're doing or playing as is one thing. But asking them to give you advice and analyze the game for you is not ok.
eh i think someone offering advice is fine provided its things like, "stop thinking with your emotions step back and really think about what your doing."
Analyzing the game obviously is a bad bit but people routinely rant or ask a non player if they are reading x game and ask for things like "am I retarded for thinking blah" etc..
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On March 20 2013 02:59 Promethelax wrote:
Hey War, you think you are ever going to in a game again? Or just keep shadowing until you emerge and are no longer Warbaby the grey but warbaby the white. An all powerful, reborn, mafia playing, wizard.
I'm kind of waiting for the next normal game, and I'm still in a busy period with work.
Also, if anything I have a lower opinion of my own mafia skillz after following some more non-newbie games x.x; You and marv have certainly been helpful, but I'm even more sure now that I have no idea what the hell is going on with this infernal game
Right now I'm not shadowing anyone, either. If anyone's interested in mentoring me in an upcoming game, please shoot me a PM. Otherwise I'll try to get through my backlog at work and actually play soon
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United Kingdom36158 Posts
I... I have not been helpful.
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11589 Posts
Marv, don't get too down. Personality was an anomaly.
You've certainly helped me become a better player.
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On March 21 2013 02:00 warbaby wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 02:59 Promethelax wrote:
Hey War, you think you are ever going to in a game again? Or just keep shadowing until you emerge and are no longer Warbaby the grey but warbaby the white. An all powerful, reborn, mafia playing, wizard. Also, if anything I have a lower opinion of my own mafia skillz after following some more non-newbie games x.x; You and marv have certainly been helpful, but I'm even more sure now that I have no idea what the hell is going on with this infernal game
That's actually a good sign.
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On March 21 2013 02:00 warbaby wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2013 02:59 Promethelax wrote:
Hey War, you think you are ever going to in a game again? Or just keep shadowing until you emerge and are no longer Warbaby the grey but warbaby the white. An all powerful, reborn, mafia playing, wizard. I'm kind of waiting for the next normal game, and I'm still in a busy period with work. Also, if anything I have a lower opinion of my own mafia skillz after following some more non-newbie games x.x; You and marv have certainly been helpful, but I'm even more sure now that I have no idea what the hell is going on with this infernal game Right now I'm not shadowing anyone, either. If anyone's interested in mentoring me in an upcoming game, please shoot me a PM. Otherwise I'll try to get through my backlog at work and actually play soon
But knowing that you know nothing is the first step to knowing things. You are the most socratic of the mafia players.
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On March 21 2013 04:36 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 02:00 warbaby wrote:On March 20 2013 02:59 Promethelax wrote:
Hey War, you think you are ever going to in a game again? Or just keep shadowing until you emerge and are no longer Warbaby the grey but warbaby the white. An all powerful, reborn, mafia playing, wizard. I'm kind of waiting for the next normal game, and I'm still in a busy period with work. Also, if anything I have a lower opinion of my own mafia skillz after following some more non-newbie games x.x; You and marv have certainly been helpful, but I'm even more sure now that I have no idea what the hell is going on with this infernal game Right now I'm not shadowing anyone, either. If anyone's interested in mentoring me in an upcoming game, please shoot me a PM. Otherwise I'll try to get through my backlog at work and actually play soon But knowing that you know nothing is the first step to knowing things. You are the most socratic of the mafia players.
You know nothing, Jon Snow(ethelax)
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Iceland22632 Posts
If kurumi's cool with it I'd be fine with talking to someone as I play his red game thing.
Only requirement: be on IRC at all times, and I play during european day hours. 10:00 GMT (+00:00) - 02:00 GMT (+00:00).
Usually more active in the evenings.
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I would love this with palmar, but going to treat it as part of my punishment.
This is like worse than sitting out a game
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
chillax on the self-flaggelation man
if you want to shadow a dude go ahead
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I'd love to shadow someone and learn more about thought processes when reading/posting during games.
Add me to the list!
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I'm interested in shadowing someone.
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It should be noted that this is an "active participant" program, in that people interested in shadowing should "actively" try and find someone to shadow, rather than sit around and wait for someone to contact them.
Frankly I'm not sure why GM put a "student" section in the OP, I'm certainly not going to try and find someone to come watch my posts in a game. Conversely, if anyone is interested in watching my posts in a game, I welcome the opportunity to share my thought process (for better or worse )
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United States22154 Posts
On March 28 2013 07:11 VisceraEyes wrote:It should be noted that this is an "active participant" program, in that people interested in shadowing should "actively" try and find someone to shadow, rather than sit around and wait for someone to contact them. Frankly I'm not sure why GM put a "student" section in the OP, I'm certainly not going to try and find someone to come watch my posts in a game. Conversely, if anyone is interested in watching my posts in a game, I welcome the opportunity to share my thought process (for better or worse )
Because I like lists, you're right that its the students initiative to find someone to shadow ^_^
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On March 28 2013 07:11 VisceraEyes wrote:It should be noted that this is an "active participant" program, in that people interested in shadowing should "actively" try and find someone to shadow, rather than sit around and wait for someone to contact them. Frankly I'm not sure why GM put a "student" section in the OP, I'm certainly not going to try and find someone to come watch my posts in a game. Conversely, if anyone is interested in watching my posts in a game, I welcome the opportunity to share my thought process (for better or worse )
Playing/watching with VE in your ear is good for anyone. You must trust me. Grab VE for his next game it will change your life. Or probably anyone who is willing to participate as well. Me and VE are the original pair and it's really fun. Just remember you'll get out of it what you put in.
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Scum also like lists. Generally speaking. Not that I'm calling you scum. Or am I?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On March 28 2013 07:14 VisceraEyes wrote:
Scum also like lists. Generally speaking. Not that I'm calling you scum. Or am I?
stop waffling! if you're not clear with your reads you can't help the town
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DON'T RUIN MY PRESSURE BH YOU SCUM BRO?!
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United States22154 Posts
##Activate: Dongle
##Open: Paradox Rift
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Maybe he'll come out in a time when he was able to play games. *fingerscrossed*
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United States22154 Posts
Day 3
It was time, and the consensus was clear, GMarshal was the next to go. A flustered and angry gonzaw cast the final vote, as VisceraEyes and Blazinghand looked on, impassive. As GMarshal stood in the town square surrounded by the mob, someone yelled "Any last words scum", and GMarshal smiled.
With a coy flip of his top hat, Mr.Wiggles set the noose around GMarshal's neck. As he approached the execution lever he paused, something was amiss, he turned just to see GMarshal flip the dongle in his pocket from off to on. And then all hell broke loose. With a puff of smoke GMarshal began to fade from existence as a rift opened in the skies above, but alas for him, VisceraEyes was too fast for him, a single blast from his harpoon gun peirced GMarshal through the chest, splattering a flustered Mr.Wiggles with Blood.
At the same time from the rift a storm of shards decended, looking for the man who had slain their master, and VisceraEyes soon found himself reduced to an agonizing pile of pudding, his harpoon gun still clutched in his fleshless hands.
Meanwhile Blazinghand had slunk off, the moment he saw the rift he knew that he had to activate the Sonic Disruptor. Alas gonzaw had divined his intentions and Blazinghand found him already standing before the wreckage of the machine, a confident smile on his face and a smile perched on his lips. "Too late" he simply said, firing twice into Blazinghand's chest, who fell backward into a pool of his own blood. Of course this meant that gonzaw never saw the explosion from the bomb hidden in the Sonic Disruptor.
At the main stage, Mr.Wiggles cowered below the stage amidst the shattered remnants of what he hoped was nothing important, just a machine labeled Eternium Chamber, and hoping that the storm of crying shards raining from above would spare him. Their unearthly cries masked the approach of a slinking figure behind him, and before he even knew he was dead Mr.Wiggles had been promptly decapitated as GreYMisT fed on his entrails. So preoccupied was GreYMisT on sating his unearthly hunger that he completely missed the sound of the pillars holding the stage crumbling under the hail outside. By the time he noticed the stage was collapsing, a rather large peice of wood was jutting from his chest, as his blood mixed with Mr.Wiggle's
From the balcony, iGrok pondered what this meant for the town. As the creature from the rift extended a single tendril towards him, his thoughts were cut short, as he vanished with a single scream of agony. Leaving behind only a stain
GMarshal the Third Party Guardian of Eternity has died and failed to fulfill his wincondition of protecting the Eternium Chamber!
VisceraEyes the Town Bone Golem has been shattered by the storm of chaos!
Blazinghand the Progressive Faction Irate Scientist has been shot!
gonzaw the Mafia Gunmaster has fallen into a trap!
Mr.Wiggles the Town Elector has been devoured, his essence stolen!
GreYMisT the Scum Devourer has been killed by the storm of chaos and has failed to meet his alternate wincondition of capturing five essences!
iGrok the Progressive Faction Machinist and Undercover Operator has been killed by the storm of chaos.
The Dongle has been destroyed
The Sonic Disruptor has been destroyed
The Eternium Chamber has been unsealed, Eternium counter exists, Eternium counter is set to 5!
Bomb 2 has gone off
The Sword of Ecstasy is in play
The Rift of Paradox is now open, chaos set to maximum!
Paradox Event in 12 hours
Counters:
Luck: 3/11
Technology: 4/?
Danger: 7/10
Chaos: 10/10
Hidden: 3/10
Eternium: 5/?
?????: ?/?
Storm rules are in effect, no items may be traded
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On March 28 2013 09:12 GMarshal wrote:Day 3 It was time, and the consensus was clear, GMarshal was the next to go. A flustered and angry gonzaw cast the final vote, as VisceraEyes and Blazinghand looked on, impassive. As GMarshal stood in the town square surrounded by the mob, someone yelled "Any last words scum", and GMarshal smiled. With a coy flip of his top hat, Mr.Wiggles set the noose around GMarshal's neck. As he approached the execution lever he paused, something was amiss, he turned just to see GMarshal flip the dongle in his pocket from off to on. And then all hell broke loose. With a puff of smoke GMarshal began to fade from existence as a rift opened in the skies above, but alas for him, VisceraEyes was too fast for him, a single blast from his harpoon gun peirced GMarshal through the chest, splattering a flustered Mr.Wiggles with Blood. At the same time from the rift a storm of shards decended, looking for the man who had slain their master, and VisceraEyes soon found himself reduced to an agonizing pile of pudding, his harpoon gun still clutched in his fleshless hands. Meanwhile Blazinghand had slunk off, the moment he saw the rift he knew that he had to activate the Sonic Disruptor. Alas gonzaw had divined his intentions and Blazinghand found him already standing before the wreckage of the machine, a confident smile on his face and a smile perched on his lips. "Too late" he simply said, firing twice into Blazinghand's chest, who fell backward into a pool of his own blood. Of course this meant that gonzaw never saw the explosion from the bomb hidden in the Sonic Disruptor. At the main stage, Mr.Wiggles cowered below the stage amidst the shattered remnants of what he hoped was nothing important, just a machine labeled Eternium Chamber, and hoping that the storm of crying shards raining from above would spare him. Their unearthly cries masked the approach of a slinking figure behind him, and before he even knew he was dead Mr.Wiggles had been promptly decapitated as GreYMisT fed on his entrails. So preoccupied was GreYMisT on sating his unearthly hunger that he completely missed the sound of the pillars holding the stage crumbling under the hail outside. By the time he noticed the stage was collapsing, a rather large peice of wood was jutting from his chest, as his blood mixed with Mr.Wiggle'sFrom the balcony, iGrok pondered what this meant for the town. As the creature from the rift extended a single tendril towards him, his thoughts were cut short, as he vanished with a single scream of agony. Leaving behind only a stain
GMarshal the Third Party Guardian of Eternity has died and failed to fulfill his wincondition of protecting the Eternium Chamber! VisceraEyes the Town Bone Golem has been shattered by the storm of chaos! Blazinghand the Progressive Faction Irate Scientist has been shot! gonzaw the Mafia Gunmaster has fallen into a trap! Mr.Wiggles the Town Elector has been devoured, his essence stolen! GreYMis the Scum Devourer has been killed by the storm of chaos and has failed to meet his alternate wincondition of capturing five essences! iGrok the Progressive Faction Machinist and Undercover Operator has been killed by the storm of chaos. The Dongle has been destroyed The Sonic Disruptor has been destroyed The Eternium Chamber has been unsealed, Eternium counter exists, Eternium counter is set to 5!Bomb 2 has gone offThe Sword of Ecstasy is in playThe Rift of Paradox is now open, chaos set to maximum!Paradox Event in 12 hours
Counters: Luck: 3/11 Technology: 4/? Danger: 7/10 Chaos: 10/10 Hidden: 3/10 ?????: ?/? Storm rules are in effect, no items may be traded
CHRIST I THOUGHT THERE WERE ONLY EIGHT CHAOS COUNTERS GM YOU DESERVE TO LOSE
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##Resurrect: Use Flask of Immortal Peril
##Pay: 100 denari
##Announce: "The skies have fallen, only to have the warriors rise. I, servant of Dushara, will see the land returned to the gods"
##Sacrifice: Virgin of the 72 inner eyes
##Operate: The Rift
##Summon: The Almighty Warrior God Al-Qaum
##Cast: The Spell of the Bounded: Dja-Ibn-Ulkhumek
(Flask of Immortal Peril cease action)
##Final Act (Passive Added Ability)->Possess marvellosity, the Progressive Faction Patriarch
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United States22154 Posts
On March 28 2013 10:17 gonzaw wrote:
##Resurrect: Use Flask of Immortal Peril
##Pay: 100 denari
##Announce: "The skies have fallen, only to have the warriors rise. I, servant of Dushara, will see the land returned to the gods"
##Sacrifice: Virgin of the 72 inner eyes
##Operate: The Rift
##Summon: The Almighty Warrior God Al-Qaum
##Cast: The Spell of the Bounded: Dja-Ibn-Ulkhumek
(Flask of Immortal Peril cease action)
##Final Act (Passive Added Ability)->Possess marvellosity, the Progressive Faction Patriarch
Dead players can't use items. Read the Flask's description *carefully*
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whatever happened to catastrophe mafia
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What the actual fuck is going on in herrrr
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The thing that stuck out most for me was the word "dongle". Heh. Dongle.
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On March 28 2013 10:42 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 10:17 gonzaw wrote:
##Resurrect: Use Flask of Immortal Peril
##Pay: 100 denari
##Announce: "The skies have fallen, only to have the warriors rise. I, servant of Dushara, will see the land returned to the gods"
##Sacrifice: Virgin of the 72 inner eyes
##Operate: The Rift
##Summon: The Almighty Warrior God Al-Qaum
##Cast: The Spell of the Bounded: Dja-Ibn-Ulkhumek
(Flask of Immortal Peril cease action)
##Final Act (Passive Added Ability)->Possess marvellosity, the Progressive Faction Patriarch Dead players can't use items. Read the Flask's description *carefully*
The description says "At the moment of death, this flask shines with the light of the 8 heavenly kingdoms, granting the bearer only a few minutes to live before succumbing to his eternal slumber...".
Unless I got that wrong, it means I can post "##Resurrect: Use Flask of Immortal Peril" at the moment of death, but since I can't post right with the Day post (since I can't know if I die beforehand), then I do so immediately after!
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I regret I didn't /in.
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I have been in the whole time but I didn't even make the player list. I must have been the co-host. Yes! That explains everything!
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United States22154 Posts
On March 28 2013 12:56 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 10:42 GMarshal wrote:On March 28 2013 10:17 gonzaw wrote:
##Resurrect: Use Flask of Immortal Peril
##Pay: 100 denari
##Announce: "The skies have fallen, only to have the warriors rise. I, servant of Dushara, will see the land returned to the gods"
##Sacrifice: Virgin of the 72 inner eyes
##Operate: The Rift
##Summon: The Almighty Warrior God Al-Qaum
##Cast: The Spell of the Bounded: Dja-Ibn-Ulkhumek
(Flask of Immortal Peril cease action)
##Final Act (Passive Added Ability)->Possess marvellosity, the Progressive Faction Patriarch Dead players can't use items. Read the Flask's description *carefully* The description says "At the moment of death, this flask shines with the light of the 8 heavenly kingdoms, granting the bearer only a few minutes to live before succumbing to his eternal slumber...".
Unless I got that wrong, it means I can post "##Resurrect: Use Flask of Immortal Peril" at the moment of death, but since I can't post right with the Day post (since I can't know if I die beforehand), then I do so immediately after!
Looks like someone tampered with the label on that thing!
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Yes, I believe there is another role that can do that
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Oh yea, you can throw me in the list of mentors.
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Looking to shadow scum specifically. PM if you're willing. Can be an ongoing game if it's started recently. I'll clear it with the host and all that just need some red red love.
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People who are still interested in this concept and looking for someone to shadow please contact me. I have some free time coming up and would love to help someone come into their own in mafia. I'm a good talker and stuff.
I'd love for this to become a more common occurrence as the three or four times which I am aware of it occurring the newbies and the vets benefited from the system.
OO I know is still around and could comment on this from the perspective of the shadow while Marv, VE and myself would, I am sure, all be happy to discuss it from the perspective of the player being shadowed. If warbaby still exists maybe he would be willing to talk a little about the process as well.
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I would love to shadow. I'm certainly not new, but I am bad.
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On December 05 2013 10:28 Risen wrote:
I would love to shadow. I'm certainly not new, but I am bad.
but you won heavyweights and maintained the most awesome diary ever! :>
awesome bump - wasn't aware of this. really busy in the next few weeks but definitely interested.
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Scum top tier. Town bottom tier. It's a problem 
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On December 05 2013 12:11 Risen wrote:Scum top tier. Town bottom tier. It's a problem
Serious q cos im not familiar with your scum game.
Is the scum top tier *BECAUSE* of town being bottom tier?
i.e. leeway is giving to you that isnt to players of a higher standard town game?
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On December 05 2013 12:15 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 12:11 Risen wrote:Scum top tier. Town bottom tier. It's a problem Serious q cos im not familiar with your scum game. Is the scum top tier *BECAUSE* of town being bottom tier? i.e. leeway is giving to you that isnt to players of a higher standard town game?
I honestly don't think so. That is a good question, though.
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I think I'd learn a lot from both having a green newbie shadowing me and by shadowing a more experienced player.
On December 05 2013 12:37 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 12:15 Mocsta wrote:On December 05 2013 12:11 Risen wrote:Scum top tier. Town bottom tier. It's a problem Serious q cos im not familiar with your scum game. Is the scum top tier *BECAUSE* of town being bottom tier? i.e. leeway is giving to you that isnt to players of a higher standard town game? I honestly don't think so. That is a good question, though.
Different question: is the town bottom tier because of scum being top tier? Do you get mislynched *because* people are wary of your scumgame?
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On December 05 2013 12:37 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 12:15 Mocsta wrote:On December 05 2013 12:11 Risen wrote:Scum top tier. Town bottom tier. It's a problem Serious q cos im not familiar with your scum game. Is the scum top tier *BECAUSE* of town being bottom tier? i.e. leeway is giving to you that isnt to players of a higher standard town game? I honestly don't think so. That is a good question, though.
As top tier town more of your cases need to be right and on scum.
As town Risen(today), less of you cases have to be right.
As scum Risen, I would be fairly sure that other players dont regard a bad (not top tier) case on fellow towny read of theirs as a sure scum sign from you. They know you can be and are wrong as town.
If you become better as town, and habitually put out cases that make sense to other top tier townies. Then as scum you're going to have to learn to fake them.
Not trying to talk you out of learning to improve town, more pointing how much "fun" it will be trying.
Getting better is work. That is why being better is worth something.
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On December 05 2013 13:58 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 12:37 Risen wrote:On December 05 2013 12:15 Mocsta wrote:On December 05 2013 12:11 Risen wrote:Scum top tier. Town bottom tier. It's a problem Serious q cos im not familiar with your scum game. Is the scum top tier *BECAUSE* of town being bottom tier? i.e. leeway is giving to you that isnt to players of a higher standard town game? I honestly don't think so. That is a good question, though. As top tier town more of your cases need to be right and on scum. As town Risen(today), less of you cases have to be right. As scum Risen, I would be fairly sure that other players dont regard a bad (not top tier) case on fellow towny read of theirs as a sure scum sign from you. They know you can be and are wrong as town. If you become better as town, and habitually put out cases that make sense to other top tier townies. Then as scum you're going to have to learn to fake them. Not trying to talk you out of learning to improve town, more pointing how much "fun" it will be trying. Getting better is work. That is why being better is worth something.
Huuough
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Well anyway /shadow epic town ppls pm me
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On December 05 2013 18:24 Alakaslam wrote:
Well anyway /shadow epic town ppls pm me
You have to PM us actually. I'm all booked up right now but if you are interested in the next few months I might be able to fit you in. If you want something sooner I'm sure you could find someone else willing to take you on.
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This thread gave a neat idea for a new game: Shadow mini mafia.
9 (or 11) experienced players that are all shadowed by inexperienced players. Then either replace all the original players by their shadow after 2 days or follow it up instantly with a new game with all the shadows to try to make them apply what they learned from shadowing immediately.
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would prefer the direct follow up version. With the caveat that those who shadowed one alignment but rolled the other would not have learned much of use and you couldn't mirror the alignments. WAIT! YOU TOTALLY COULD. Reveal who the shadows are, do not reveal who they shadow. Each shadow gets the same alignment they shadowed. Could be epic.
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On December 05 2013 19:43 Promethelax wrote:
would prefer the direct follow up version. With the caveat that those who shadowed one alignment but rolled the other would not have learned much of use and you couldn't mirror the alignments. WAIT! YOU TOTALLY COULD. Reveal who the shadows are, do not reveal who they shadow. Each shadow gets the same alignment they shadowed. Could be epic.
I'm down
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I think that shadow mini sounds really cool.
I also want to /in as a shadow with no particular preference for player or game, really just as soon as is feasible.
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We're working on setting one up as we speak. I have no idea when/if it will occur but let it be known that attempts are being made to create such a game.
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11589 Posts
I would offer to be a player to be shadowed, but I'm not playing much anymore.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nwp-JJybdas/ToW7eZoqFZI/AAAAAAAAByw/j9tdcqhM42I/s320/challenge.jpg)
