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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
Jacob. I think that he is trying to play better. ok. Nah after reading his filter, he reads like excited town and posting a lot of irrelevence. Jacob, do you currently have any scum reads? Explain properly. Sonic. Im also thinking about yamato, but I hope that he will post more. I expect more from CC than yamato though, so maybe thats why I am so suspicious of him. | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
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JacobStrangelove
Australia1572 Posts
 But yeah I have been rather nonchalant.because you want me to be clearer (oats) Yamato is a scum read, his bit about. On November 25 2012 13:51 yamato77 wrote: If we sheep oats and lynch cheesecake, and he flips town, at least our day 2 lynch is an easy decision. Could be a way to try and get two town lynched with one stone. Saying it black and white like that. Before posting more than two posts (basically) he posts this On November 25 2012 14:16 yamato77 wrote: Still feel uneasy about me? Signals he is paranoid about what people think about him. Then does this On November 25 2012 14:53 yamato77 wrote: I don't really care for your topics of discussion, but that's about it. On November 25 2012 15:09 yamato77 wrote: I think the discussion is fine as it is. On November 25 2012 15:12 yamato77 wrote: That is, between Aqua and I, the only other 2 people actively keeping up. whaa? On November 26 2012 05:34 yamato77 wrote: Mr. Cheesecake is playing without contributing. He's written a lot, but most of it is absolutely useless to a town looking for scum. His policy discussion and talk about other mafia games he's played doesn't help hunt for other players, it seems like more of a defense for himself. Then he calls out two players, myself and Helo, trying to draw attention away from himself. None of this reads town to me, at all. Mentioned this before but it is exactly what he was doing but trying to call someone else out for it. And he swings a lot. Plenty of contradiction. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On November 26 2012 17:01 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Aqua, that's all you got after all this discussion? It is not. (Apologies, this took a while to write, and yes, I was aware of the hypocrisy.) tl;dr: I believe Kickstart is scum. Kickstart's First Post Kickstart's first post was completely contentless. Some rambling about a previous game he's played, just filling space, and the same jab at Oatsmaster that pretty much every other player made. SDM and Jacob had the same material to work with and gave some sensible analysis. And then, after four hours of lurking... DING DING DING DING DING ...Kickstart jumps on Oatsmaster's CC vote. On November 25 2012 21:27 Kickstart wrote: First off your format for your vote is wrong, secondly saying you are "intensely serious" is not a case on cheesecake. Frankly this is ridiculous and so anti-town so far that if it continues I don't think we should keep you around because this is either scum play or bad town play. The beginning of your filter is all fluff, which isn't that big of a deal since it is the start of the game and I don't really expect anything amazing from anyone, but then you post: I already told you before, if you are suspicious of someone you need to make a better post than that, you need to make a case against the person providing reasons for why they are suspicious. Then there is this: Why would you bring up "think about if I was scum", that is not a town mindset. Scum are the ones who would say something like that, all town needs to do is let their actions show that they are being pro-town, and so far you arent. And then the final straw for me so far is this: So you say yeah ok me saying cheese is scum without providing any reasoning is a bit extreme, THEN YOU DO IT ANYWAYS????? This is unacceptable. I suggest you start making some real cases, untill then: ##vote: Oatsmaster Kickstart claims Oatsmaster's vote is "anti-town", or "if it continues I don't think we should keep you around because this is either scum play or bad town play". How in the hell is voting for your top scum read anti town? Especially when the thread has stagnated. Also, trying to remove guilt from himself if/when Oats flips town ("I told you guys he might be bad town anyway, remember?") I'll grant you Oatsmaster is not playing cautious obv-town, but I don't really see anything he's done as being exceptionally scum motivated. What kind of newbie scum randomly tunnels someone within their first three posts? For reference, a post about Oatsmaster which meets with more of my approval is HeloKnight's return #246. Sure, it's not entirely original, but at least he's making an effort. HeloKnight is LOOKING FOR SCUMINESS in Oatsmaster with this post, not saying "Take your vote off Cheesecake because it's bad." Kickstart's subsquent posts don't inspire a lot of town feeling in me either. Next were some short postsposts, which seem to be more about defending Cheesecake than looking for Oats scum. On November 25 2012 22:02 Kickstart wrote: This is stupid btw, we should be scumhunting. If you are going to vote someone, you need to show why you think they are scum. I showed why your posting so far and your vote is crap, and you have still refused to make a case or provide adequate reasoning for your vote. We need to be finding scum - so do it and stop wasting time. With that I will ask again: Can you give us a reason why you think Cheese is scummy and why you voted for him? "This is stupid btw, we should be scumhunting." Do as I say, not as I do? None of Kickstart's posts are about Oatsmaster being scum, just about Oatsmaster being bad (specifically, his vote on Cheese being bad). On November 25 2012 22:40 Kickstart wrote: You two seem to be agreeing that you don't think Oats is scum. Can you explain his vote onto cheese then, because he apparently can't provide a decent explanation for it himself. How is throwing a random vote onto someone without giving any sort of decent explanation town play? All Oats' vote has done is sow confusion because of how pointless it seems to be - which is scummy. Now if you have actual reasons to vote for someone, and present them to everyone, then discussion can flow from it and we can better assess everyone and get some reads going - but as I said you didn't provide that so have only managed to cause confusion. So aside from waiting for a decent explanation from Oats, I would like for some other people to actually get involved in the thread, so far discussion has been between a few people and on not a very broad spectrum of topics, neither of which is good for town at this point. GUYS GUYS WHY ARE YOU NOT PUSHING MY MISLYNCH WAGON FOR ME GUYS And then there was some more defence of Cheesecake. On November 26 2012 06:09 Kickstart wrote: Lol wow I missed that post from yama, glad you pointed it out SDM because yeah it is suspicious. @ Yamato77 You saying Cheese doesn't read town is nice and all, but I am more interested (as I think SDM has said (and you better not accuse me of what you accused cheese of SDM!)) in if you read him as scum. Do you have any scum reads at all? As far as I can tell you are just saying you are suspicious of cheese because he said he was suspicious of you.... Pretty opportunistic poke at yamato, but doesn't lose sight of his main goal - defend the cheesecake! Kickstart also pokes lurkers a lot - easy to do as scum or town. No judgement here. Conclusion: Everyone else commented on Oatsmaster's read and vote based on how they reflected on Oatsmaster. Kickstart appears to be placing a much greater emphasis on how a vote for Cheesecake is bad. In particular, I believe Kickstart was the only one who wanted Oatsmaster to take his CC vote back (which doesn't make any sense, what's done is done and Oatsmaster will just take more flak if he does). Besides Oatsmaster, Kickstart hasn't looked for scum anywhere else at all, and I don't think his scumhunting on Oatsmaster is genuine. His only priority appears to be defending Cheesecake. There are three possibilities: (1) Kickstart is scum, knows Mr. Cheesecake is town and is white-knighting him. A lot. (2) Kickstart and Mr. Cheesecake are both scum and Kickstart is defending his scumbuddy. (3) Kickstart is town, has a town read on Mr. Cheesecake (correct or not) and for some reason feels the need to defend him vehemently against all attacks, in lieu of any actual search for scum. I don't buy (3), and so ##Vote: Kickstart | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
On November 26 2012 16:49 Aquanim wrote: I require more posts from Munk-E to make any kind of a read on him. Post some more stuff Munk-E, look for scum (somewhere other than in Oatsmaster's early contributions, there's plenty more to read now). If your posts have new content this vote will disappear. But what about your reads on people that do post more? If you're not making reads on people you've got information on, why does it even matter if Munk posts more? This post and vote just seems like an excuse not to take a stance on anything. This is where I'm at right now: I guess I'm leaning mostly townards Yamato or Aqua right now. Munk's first two posts were unimpressive and pretty null, he needs to post more indeed. He's not engaging in any discussions and just makes a long case/rant about Oats. In this game that seems to be just about enough to stay alive, and doing just about enough to stay alive but not more is usually what scum wants to do. I'm quite undecided about Jacob, I need time to solve that riddle. Oats is weird and I'm not sure what to make of it. He seems to have latched on to CC for no good reason. It may be confirmation bias but it's kind of scummy. My initial read was genuine and slight town and while he's kind of working on turning that read around, I don't see him as a lynch candidate right now. Kick came off as genuine in my exchange with him regarding Oats. He's been a slight town read in part because of this and in part because he seems to be trying to scum hunt. While I'm not convinced I don't see myself wanting to lynch one of the few people scum hunting. I think Cake is a good enough player to get himself out of th case I made against him earlier. I have to admit though that the meta part of that case was rather weak. His play in this game is somewhere in between his spazzy play in XXX and uptight play in XXIX. In the end that probably means null. He conceded to the point about cock-riding, which I feel may be an indication of honesty (town trait). He also continued to pursue Yamato rehashing my points even after I called him out for it, which makes it seem like he was genuinely suspicious of him (a scum might be hesistant to doing this). All in all, CC has shown some effort and arguments that's been enough for me to doubt him being a good D1 candidate. Helo has moved himself into a more null/slight town read after my earlier suspicion. | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
Bad play? I dont think so. | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
On November 26 2012 17:28 JacobStrangelove wrote: Hey I asked questions "just wondering why the aggressive comments" I do expect answers just because I don't say "this is a question" trust me when he reads that he probably will answer. Theory was implied But yeah I have been rather nonchalant.Yeah that's a fair point, but if you think Kick's comment was allignment indicative I would've expected you to put some pressure. Instead you kind of just left it out there for others to either go with or ignore. As far as your Yamato case goes, what you point out is nothing new (I know claim that, you were just clarifying). A lot of it is stuff I've thought about and I think commented on. The problem I have is it feels like one of this cases I convince myself is good but end up being crap. It's just to easy to make. D1 it's very easy for scum not to leave those obvious openings. This is why I'm intrigued about Aqua's case on Kick. On surface Kick isn't scummy, but scum usually won't be scummy on the first day, at least D1 (I have yet to read the case though). | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
On November 26 2012 17:48 Oatsmaster wrote: I really dont know how you guys can be condemning me for voting for CC when none of you have a town read on him. Bad play? I dont think so. This is not a good argument. You're not supposed to vote on people you think others think are scummy. Scum vote this town way. If you're town you should vote on someone you think is scummy and you should be able to explain why. Just because I don't have a town read on CC doesn't mean I think it's a good idea to vote on him without a good scum read. Besides, townies tend to be suspicious of everything, you seem to be suspicious of only CC. That's not town mentality. | ||
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JacobStrangelove
Australia1572 Posts
On November 26 2012 17:57 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Yeah that's a fair point, but if you think Kick's comment was allignment indicative I would've expected you to put some pressure. Instead you kind of just left it out there for others to either go with or ignore. As far as your Yamato case goes, what you point out is nothing new (I know claim that, you were just clarifying). A lot of it is stuff I've thought about and I think commented on. The problem I have is it feels like one of this cases I convince myself is good but end up being crap. It's just to easy to make. D1 it's very easy for scum not to leave those obvious openings. This is why I'm intrigued about Aqua's case on Kick. On surface Kick isn't scummy, but scum usually won't be scummy on the first day, at least D1 (I have yet to read the case though). Yeah, to be honest though and this is probably bad play on my part but my meta is very well there is this... and this! Until I get a solid above 60% read. (unless I find someone to omgus on) But the meta thing is indicative a little at least (considering day one) and aqua's case while going over a few things already mentioned was well put together. I think most likely scum are yamato and kick, aqua came out with a good post so... that puts munkey in a worse light comparatively (as far as lurking goes) CC is kinda like kick in away which is interesting. I don't have much else to say until these guys get back in the thread tbh. | ||
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JacobStrangelove
Australia1572 Posts
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
If not, why not? If so, why aren't you voting him? Do you find someone else scummier? | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On November 25 2012 14:16 yamato77 wrote: Still feel uneasy about me? When I saw this post originally, I thought the same thing that I've been seeing in your reads - that it seems like anxious scum. This was in reference to a post I made which (among other things) said I was uneasy about yamato. However, yamato (and CC) had posted since my last refresh and I then posted that I'd been ninja-d a lot. I can well believe that yamato might have thought I'd made the second post because my uneasiness about him had been nullified. Could well still be scum paranoia, but there's a reasonable innocent explanation too. I'm still thinking about the rest of the case. | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
On November 26 2012 18:12 JacobStrangelove wrote: yeah oats while his initial style was very townlike in my opinion has also been quite inconsistent tunnling as well like sonic mentioned however I think his style (and this is only a feel read) is more town like though. Aside from sparking decision early nothing he's done is very pro-town. Of course we want every townie to be pro-town, but I don't think it's very allignment indicative. There are some things I've pointed out that can be seen as scum mentality, but in the end I don't even manage to convince myself he's scum (I'm usually quite good at convincing myself as long as I try hard :p). I have the same feeling as you. It's hard to put to words, but I guess the best description still is to obviously scummy to be scum. This goes back to the same old argument: Scum primary objective is to try not to look like scum. I have a hard time believing that's Oats' primary objective. As far as the Kick case goes it's quite reasonable: - He's only going after Oats, which is an obvious and easy target. - He's defending CC pretty hard, aka white knighting (assuming CC is town). Kick is rather cautious. I'd say his style of writing is rather formal and for the lack of a better word, cold (not a lot of excitement). I expect from newbie scum. I'm sure CC can relate to this from his first scum game. It was true for me in my first scum game (and to a lesser extent also my second). It was true to Xatalos in my first scum game. Debears in his first scum game. To make my point short, it's often the case. This has given me a slight suspicion towards Kick, but I've really not thought it was worth acting on such a suspicion, because he's been active and "making sense" (unfortunately I have a tendency to think people "making sense" are townies, but like I've explain before it seems townies are more often logically incoherrent while scum will be more focused on appearing to "make sense"). I think Kick is worth considering. Aqua has moved himself off my list having made a good case with some thinking that runs a deeper than this-dude-looks-scummy-on-the-surface case. Munk and Yamato are still up there, but for my wishy-washy reasonings I expressed earlier I'm kind of doubting a vote on Yamato. I will have to go back and look at why I thought Kick was townie to begin with. It's probably mostly because he was the first to make some sort of case. The genuine feel I got from our discussion about Oats was because it seemed to me like he genuinely didn't realize why it was a bad case. After all, it's pretty common for newbies not to look for motivation and rather just look for weird/bad behaviour. | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On November 26 2012 16:57 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Oats, do you have any other scum reads? In a game where 90% of the players look like scum I'm having a hard time seeing a townie so convinced of a target at this point. I'm also legitimately concerned about Jacob and Aqua. They really seem to not want to take a stance on anything. Jacob seems really wishy-washy and not very interested in finding a lynch candidate. He's showing no sense of urgency at all and quite satisfied with the current state of the game, which I would expect scum to be right now because we're really heading nowhere and activity is low. I'm soon heading off to school and I would've liked to be able to narrow down my potential list of lynch candidates, but there are probably 5 players I'd consider now. I don't think I saw anything from you about Jacob after this post. Do you still feel this way about Jacob? | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
There are a few of his comments and actions that struck me as weird. For example he seemed to sheep me pretty hard on Yamato. This happened at the same time I made my case on CC. I found it a bit weird he focused on my smaller side-not of Yamato while I was siding with his biggest scum read making a big case on CC. His last comment also kind of strikes me as a I-think-this-is-the-way-town-thinks type post, but I'm afraid that's me starting to suffer from confirmation bias. On November 26 2012 10:33 Kickstart wrote: Right well I am going to go to sleep so won't be on for several hours, I am glad to see that there has been a decent amount of new discussion and hope to find more when I wake up and I will weigh in on everything then and try and find them scum after some well needed rest. About Jacob's note on Kick's meta. It may or may not be an important point. I remember in XXVIII Djo was newbie town and defended other newbie towns, just to in his next newbie game make a case against a newbie town because of his newbie town traits. I thought that was scummy as hell, but he turned out town. I really need to start study now  | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
On November 26 2012 18:56 Aquanim wrote: I don't think I saw anything from you about Jacob after this post. Do you still feel this way about Jacob? I posted this shortly after: "I'm quite undecided about Jacob, I need time to solve that riddle." Me and Jacob played XXVI together where he was town and I was scum. My recollection of that game is not 100%, but as far as I can remember he was kind of wishy-washy and used a lot of circle arguments which ended up with indecisive reads. So him not taking decisive stands here doesn't have to be scummy. He did show a lot of effort in trying to solve the game though, which I think he is lacking in this game. That seems to be a bit uncharacterstic and as the same time quite common for scum. We also played in XXVII where he was scum and I townie. They killed me off N1 so I don't have too much information. I did get the feeling he was kind of buddying me in that game though, or at least concerned about me not suspecting him. I'm getting a similar feeling here, but it's a really weak argument. Jacob usually puts in a lot of effort though so I don't really want to see him lynched D1 for those weak reasons. If he's town he'll be a late game asset, if he's scum at least he's likely to post a lot and we'll get a better read. I think his activity will pick up and especially in late game. I think he'll be really excited to solve the game if he's town. As scum it's really hard to be very active late game and if he's not very active I'd become really concerned. Keep this in mind if I'm not around, him being active doesn't necessarily mean he's town, but if he isn't excited about solving the game and posting a lot I'd be vary. | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
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