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On December 03 2012 23:48 iamperfection wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 23:42 Promethelax wrote:On December 03 2012 23:40 iamperfection wrote:On December 03 2012 23:35 Promethelax wrote:On December 03 2012 23:32 iamperfection wrote:On December 03 2012 23:31 marvellosity wrote:On December 03 2012 23:29 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:On December 03 2012 23:27 marvellosity wrote:On December 03 2012 23:26 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Kickstart: you took the lead role for scum early but decided not to do anything with it. If any of this town had bothered to read mario mini (which no one should ever read it is longer than most of my text books) they would have had you pinned in about thirty seconds. Lucky for you no one did. You also played it safe and went for the townie making the most mistakes (Oats) unfortunately for you you attacked him as bad town or scum and said he needed to die either way. This is not a town mindset at all and should have triggered alarm bells in all of town. Your list post featured Oats as 'slightly scummy' you had tunneled him all day and he had not done anything to change your read a townie would see him as 'scummy scum scum, the scummiest thing since sliced red' not slightly scummy. You needed to make your reads and stick to them. Scum often want to sit back and allow town to make cases for them, you needed to make your cases stronger and to push them instead of being wishy washy. Your reaction to the Oats claim was a scum claim. When someone claims blue town does not automatically believe that as that person might be scum fake claiming; only scum believes them 100% because they know that player is not scum. After having made that mistake you should have stuck to it though, hard defending Oats would have given you a lot of town cred. Or going right for him and getting him lynched. You and Helo chose the easy way out and it lost you the game. Oh man, Kicks' D1 is the one I spent most time reading :/ Here's what I thought was happening: Kicks attacked Oats, I told him Oats actions weren't scummy because he painted a target on his own back and that lead Kicks to chill down a bit on the scum accusations. I'm not even sure that makes chronological sense. Was Mario the game where Shady got lynched early because of spazztastic play? I didn't follow that game, did scum push his lynch? Oh and thanks for your analysis <3 huh? no, Shady wasn't playing in Mario. Ok, was probably thinking about Liquid City... or something. yeah shady was mislynched there. that wasn't scum led, though. It was shady led I was so mad reading the thread and watching that lynch happen. It was so bad. He was cleary being an idiot because he was mad. Like the most minimal research into how livid he was about Kush/Grush/Chezinu etc would have made it clear what he was doing; he was way too try hard to be scum there. i tried to lynch scum. although when shady came back it looked super scummy and was pretty funny actually. maybe if I was in the game at that point I'd have seen him as scummy (his re-entrance was, who asked him for a photo of his plane? Shit was hilarious) but reading it from it outsiders prospective he was confirmed butthurt town it was annul who asked for the photo
that was priceless.
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Hapa's Post-Game Thoughts
Promethelax did a pretty good rundown of individual player advice, so instead I wanted to touch on a couple of the themes I found important in the game.
Early Day 1 Play
I feel that a lof of players (especially the town players) were extremely uncomfortable posting and talking in the early game. Part of being a good town is the ability to generate discussion (information), and the town miserably failed in that regard in the early game. The town was very inactive, and several players were getting away with a lot of inactivity.
Overall, I like where Mr. Cheesecake was going with this post:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381931¤tpage=9#166
It's a nice way to spark some discussion, but ultimately it didn't do enough. I personally like aggressively discussing policy (lurker-lynching for example) and pressing players for opinions on it. Other players throw around votes to pressure players in the early game. The point is, town players can't sit around and wait for things to magically start in the early game - you have to take initiative and try to get people to talk. "Forced" discussion is far better than none at all.
Early Scumhunting + Lynches
Aquanim gets the "best case of the game" award. He absolutely nailed why Kickstart's play was scummy:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381931¤tpage=18#344
Other early cases were not as good, however, it was hard to scumhunt in such a quiet atmosphere. As far as tips for early-game scumhunting - it's usually much better IMO to gun for players who are trying to "hide" and are posting less. Newbie scum (and even veteran scum) often fall in this category of players. Players drawing attention to themselves (like Oatsmaster) are much-less-likely to be scum. Mafia ultimately want to blend in, hide, survive, and mislynch townies - players (like Oats) who are posting wildly without any regard for their safety, are the polar opposite of mafia-mentality.
Ultimately the town settled on a lurker-lynch (Munk-E) for Day 1, which wasn't all that bad. Lynching a lurker in the early game is not ideal, but is acceptable in the absence of better options.
The Aquanim "Cases"
So the Aquanim lynch was terrrrribad. Most of the cases against him were largely emotionally driven as opposed to finding actual connections with mafia mentality. I picked out a few:
Mr. Cheesecake's Case:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381931¤tpage=52#1032
None of this makes Aquanim scummy, and largely twists his play and motives. Cheescake points to a post where Aqua is "spreading suspicion," when in fact he's carefully outlining the Munk-E lynch and pointing suspicion at one player (Heloknight). Cheesecake then points to Aquanim's neutrality, when in fact he points to posts where Aquanim is carefully considering all options and motivations for player's actions (really, really pro town).
SDM's Case:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381931¤tpage=54#1079
SDM also focuses on a bunch of things that don't make Auqa scummy. This is a pretty clear example of thinking waaaaaay too hard about a player. Aqua was trying to "deliberately focus on being original in an unnatural way"... wtf does that even mean? Lynching someone because they're trying to be original is a pretty bad idea. In fact, townies have just as much incentive (if not more incentive) to be original than scum.
Last Minute Bandwagons
On November 30 2012 11:36 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
I can hea Hapa typing up a post-game rant about last minute switches as we speak.
Yep.
So last-minute bandwagons can work sometimes. In Newbie XXIII, I lead a last-minute wagon on GoodKarma (Mafia Godfather). In Mario Mini Mafia, I was the victim of a last-minute wagon (I was Mafia Godfather  ). While swinging a last-minute lynch on scum is a tempting glory, it rarely works, and it's best not to rely on them. These wagons are usually very emotionally driven and can be very easily influenced by a reasonably active mafia.
The bandwagons in the two games I mentioned above worked for two reasons. 1) The town in both games was absurdly active. All the players had a great feel for the game and therefore lynching on "gut-feeling" was a very viable option. 2) The mafia in both games were rather inactive. This is especially true in Mario Mini, where I had something like 90% of my team's posts on Day 1.
So unless you're in a very active town and have a very good grasp of the "flow" of the game, I highly highly advise against such bandwagons. They're often doomed to fail, and the risk is usually much greater than the reward.
That's just about all I needed to cover. Ultimately town ended up winning the game because mafia got lazy towards the end. Kickstart and Heloknight tried too hard to blend in, and not enough time trying to actively push their objectives.
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11589 Posts
Thanks for the scum read guide Hapa.
Really, thanks for everyone who has posted anything about this game. Even obs QT with all of its bemoaning of my play has been extremely helpful in learning where I went wrong.
Again, thank you for hosting these newbie games, guys, it really makes me feel like I'm welcomed into this crazy community.
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I think y'all have been way too hard on yourselves in general. We vets have been spoiled with some pretty outstanding (and uncharacteristically experienced) newbie towns as of late. This game was very much a newbie newbie game - lotsa first time players. Mistakes are to be expected, and I thought it was quite normal given the average experience in the game.
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On December 04 2012 04:17 Hapahauli wrote:
Last Minute BandwagonsShow nested quote +On November 30 2012 11:36 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
I can hea Hapa typing up a post-game rant about last minute switches as we speak. Yep. So last-minute bandwagons can work sometimes. In Newbie XXIII, I lead a last-minute wagon on GoodKarma (Mafia Godfather). In Mario Mini Mafia, I was the victim of a last-minute wagon (I was Mafia Godfather ). While swinging a last-minute lynch on scum is a tempting glory, it rarely works, and it's best not to rely on them. These wagons are usually very emotionally driven and can be very easily influenced by a reasonably active mafia. The bandwagons in the two games I mentioned above worked for two reasons. 1) The town in both games was absurdly active. All the players had a great feel for the game and therefore lynching on "gut-feeling" was a very viable option. 2) The mafia in both games were rather inactive. This is especially true in Mario Mini, where I had something like 90% of my team's posts on Day 1. So unless you're in a very active town and have a very good grasp of the "flow" of the game, I highly highly advise against such bandwagons. They're often doomed to fail, and the risk is usually much greater than the reward.
But there so fun hapa
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Well, I'm a bit late to the party.
Lot's of folks have gone over the game and I don't feel like I have anything else to add regarding gameplay.
There is one thing that I'd like to say for the scumteam, though - don't give up!. It's not over until it's over. Townies are never ever as certain as they seem, I said this in the scum qt but I don't think I gave it enough weight. You have more chances of winning if you stick with it and try to be convincing in your posts. Uncertainty will inevitably start to manifest itself amongst the townies, and you will have excellent chances of winning.
To illustrate what I mean:
1) Excellent example of a fairly plausible scum victory that didn't happen because scum gave up:
SDM in NMMXXVIII.
Debears was onto SDM before he got lynched, and I realized too that SDM was actually scum right before town got into mylo. I made this post:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370487¤tpage=61#1215
Showing all the certainty and being as persuasive as I possibly could. HOWEVER, townies were still not convinced. Scum, of course, feels that it's too obvious that they are busted and naturally feel like they've lost, but this is not true!!! Townies are insecure lil sons of bitches. 48 hours is a looong time for the opinions to change.
Another excellent example is Djodref giving up in mario mini mafia. He had some town reads and was doing a fairly good job, but just because DarthPunk was onto him like a rabid dog, he felt pressured and gave up.
It's not over until it's over. Don't give up even if you feel that you have not a chance.
Here's a counter-example:
2) Excellent example of a busted scum that didn't give up and won:
DarthPunk in LVII
ShiaoPi was a CONFIRMED COP who, towards the end of the game, figured out the scumteam (DP + imallinson), in a five player game, and displayed near-absolute certainty and conviction.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=125#2486
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=125#2492
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=126#2507
imallinson flipped, and was in fact scum, and now DP was left being the "certain scumread" of a confirmed tracker in a three-way mylo.
This is like, THE situation for scum to give up. Luckily, though, grush and BM were the two remaining players and DP was able to AtE them to hell and seal the victory.
So what I mean here is, giving up is the worst thing you can possibly do, ever. It's impossible to be able to do something worse than giving up in order to win a game, so unless it's 100% crystal clear that you won't win, just don't fucking do it!
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Once again thanks to you all for your analysis, and in the case of coaches, co-hosts and Hapa, your time put into this game. Much appreciated.
Some day I will come back to read this game and 
EDIT:
Funnily enough, I already had this bookmarked 
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There needs to be more town coaches or they should give only very general advice. Currently I'm of the opinion that town coaches are allowing their knowledge of alignments of some of the players cloud their advice, whether intentionally or not. This is also why I do not coach unless I'm limited to coaching one player only. So this isn't criticism of any single coach, rather I consider this almost inevitable. Ideally coaches shouldn't even read the thread and only respond to very specific questions.
Coaches should not have access to Obs QT.
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On December 04 2012 21:00 syllogism wrote:
There needs to be more town coaches or they should give only very general advice. Currently I'm of the opinion that town coaches are allowing their knowledge of alignments of some of the players cloud their advice, whether intentionally or not. This is also why I do not coach unless I'm limited to coaching one player only. So this isn't criticism of any single coach, rather I consider this almost inevitable. Ideally coaches shouldn't even read the thread and only respond to very specific questions.
Coaches should not have access to Obs QT.
I disagree. I had completely wrong reads on some people, and Debears let me lynch one of the townies, haha. I knew he knew who was scum, but he literally asked me to analyze everyone and draw conclusions based on that, nothing more.
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On December 04 2012 23:08 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 21:00 syllogism wrote:
There needs to be more town coaches or they should give only very general advice. Currently I'm of the opinion that town coaches are allowing their knowledge of alignments of some of the players cloud their advice, whether intentionally or not. This is also why I do not coach unless I'm limited to coaching one player only. So this isn't criticism of any single coach, rather I consider this almost inevitable. Ideally coaches shouldn't even read the thread and only respond to very specific questions.
Coaches should not have access to Obs QT. I disagree. I had completely wrong reads on some people, and Debears let me lynch one of the townies, haha. I knew he knew who was scum, but he literally asked me to analyze everyone and draw conclusions based on that, nothing more.
Obviously every coach is different and the extra knowledge will not always shape the advice given. I know I for one could not stand giving advice that I know would lead someone into wrong direction, particularly if someone asks me a specific enough question. Sometimes the advice itself doesn't clearly point towards the correct answer, but it's possible to read between the lines what the advice giver truly thinks.
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EPT
