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On October 29 2012 14:41 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
The only reason he wasn't modkilled was because he was due to be replaced. If he didn't vote on D1 then he shouldn't be around for d2.
And surprisingly Roco doesn't want to lynch Djo... Why not? Something smells super scummy about this entire situation. A lurker being scumbuddies with Djo just makes too much sense right now, especially with him returning the second he has the possibility of being lynched.
I don't think we can read into roco's latest statement. It could go either way IMO. I hope roco gets handled quickly as he's just going to be throwing out the most confusing garbage ever.
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On October 29 2012 14:43 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 14:41 Djodref wrote:@ RadCheck this out. On October 28 2012 23:50 Dandel Ion wrote:
What has Djo done for town?
What has Cheesecake done?
What has Rad done?
What has debears done?
Is nacktjogger even in this game? I can't tell. What about Roco? On October 28 2012 23:51 Dandel Ion wrote:
Oh Inig is also still alive. How could I forget this beacon of towniness? He did mention him once while SK tunneling me. I read that as just more sarcasm based on him not including inig in the "what has X done" post.
Ok but he only mentions Ini one time before posting this. In my eyes, it looks like that he was way more focused on a possible SK that on a possible scum.
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@djo I will look more into that claim tomorrow. For now, I'm going to watch something while I wind down for bed and refresh this in case something super interesting pops up.
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@Rad
I guess you're right. Still, it's just, ugh. This game, man.
Okay, so I'm really stunned by the return of prodigal son. That said, I really need to get some sleep.
An Important Note
Hurricane Sandy is approaching my front door. I may or may not have power when I wake up. If not, I obviously will not be posting for a while. So, If this is my last post:
Godspeed gentlemen, lynch Djodref.
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@cheese gl with the storm, I live in NC so I know how those go, also family in MD who are going to be getting it ^^
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Roco, stop posting. Everyone else, don't try to direct mod actions.
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Why we should lynch Dandel Ion
I'm pretty sure right now that Dandel Ion is scum. My main problem is that some of you people are firm believers that I'm mafia. I would like you to put aside your suspicions for the time it is going to take you to read this post and try to be as objective as you could be.
As Rad has said before, a townie should be always open to hear good arguments and be able to change his mind 
My main point is to promote a dandel's lynch. You might decide to lynch me anyway at the end of the day but you should try to remember this case for tomorrow in this case.
My main points against dandel are the following
- Lack of scumhunting
- Not promoting his lynch targets
- Not willing to lynch scum
Lack of scumhunting
+ Show Spoiler +If you check dandel's filter, you can notice that he has spent a good amount of time talking about policy during D1. It's making him looking active while not posting so much content. And he is encouraging people to do so even 12 hours the game has started. + Show Spoiler +On October 25 2012 21:29 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 20:10 Alsn wrote:Hey everyone, I can see the thirteenth player must have confirmed. Will start reading the thread soon but would just like to start off with some information: I'm Alsn and I've played in two mafias here on TL as well as a bunch of times using the SC2 custom map. My filters for those games can be found here(first game) and here(second game). I was an active observer in XXVII and the obs QT for that can be found here. With that out of the way, gl hf! Methinks you wanted to link this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361579 instead of XVIII twice. Now what do you think about: Lurker policy Other policy Your thoughts on the developments in this thread so far Not only you, but other people should address those 3 things too. Talking about poilcy is not exciting, I know, but we don't have much else to talk about right now, and I'd really prefer everyone to take a definite stance on things earlier instead of later. . Until now, dandel has actually one FoS against Roco and has written three cases. I personally find the cases to be lacking of content and being opportunity cases. Here you have the first case against Inig + Show Spoiler +On October 26 2012 19:55 Dandel Ion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2012 18:22 Inigmaticalism wrote:If I couldnt lynch any lurkers I really wouldnt want to lynch, but we have to. -Asln has posts (if im right) 3 posts so far. Almost just says 'Im here', but at least he contributes something (FOS at you mostly). I would want to vote for him later simply because he actually said something. -Sylvers interesting because he has tried to be helpful in his own way (role-hunting, player list repost), but once we made him clarify what he was doing hes been silent. Discouraged townie or having a hard time finding fact stuff to post? Really not sure. -Roco has 2 posts and says nothing. Yeah, policy stuff, but really policy stuff can be said at one time and then the player can vote however they really want to vote later. Once again, maybe townie shut down once he voiced his opinion? Cept hes scummier to me since he doesnt say anything. Roco and Asln, post a few more posts! They can be real simple, just give 1 or a few scum-reads and a few reasons/facts to back them up. Its ok if they rip you apart, they did me, its about getting some more info/different insight out there for town. -Dandel may be my biggest strong scum read. Its funny, most people go after those who post lots and those who post little, not those who post a decent amount(cheesecake, dandel) or not at all(oats, imcasey). Hes been fairly active, pushing different discussions here and there, nothing too major, thats what Ive been doing. Then he takes up a case against Roco, and not only is Roco probably the easiest target to target, but he doesnt even get real serious about it. He FOS to make it LOOk strong, but explains why hes being soft about it here: Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 19:23 Dandel Ion wrote:
@Roco:
Are you planning to lurk? (by your posts, it doesn't look like you plan on being active)
Care to explain to me how (probably) lurking yourself and lynching the most active players will help you find scum?
Also, answer Djo's questions pls. (especially the second one)
Until he manages to clarify that:
##FoS Roco
I know it's possible he's just... well, a noob, that's why I didn't straight up vote for him. In my first game, I suggested a No-lynch day1 (though I'd like to think that I was more logical about it)
But remember that we talked about playing the "newbie-card" in the beginning?
Same goes for other people. I get a scummy feel off Roco, and I'm not going to ignore it because it's his first game. He also says how hes not going to let Roco slide, and thats exactly what hes done. Not one mention of Roco in the few posts hes made after that. And he seems to talk to all the semi-lurkers and Djo. Not sure if thats anything important, but Ill keep it in mind. THEN he tries to start EVEN MORE policy discussion, again, in my own words, "stupid (because I was frustrated) and pointless." Contributing to killing time rather than scum-hunting. No attempt to explain why not either, just getting everyones policy straight is "important": Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 21:29 Dandel Ion wrote:
Now what do you think about:
Lurker policy
Other policy
Your thoughts on the developments in this thread so far
Not only you, but other people should address those 3 things too.
Talking about policy is not exciting, I know, but we don't have much else to talk about right now, and I'd really prefer everyone to take a definite stance on things earlier instead of later. Like I said, because you can simply change your stance and have wonderful excuses like "of course Id lynch scum over my policy, duh" or whatever, its wasted time. Not only does it look like its a pro-town move, but I would think mafia would benefit more from town knowing how people were going to vote. Swing lynches easier. (And that BETTER NOT be wifom. Cause I think its a darn good idea). - I am most willing to Vote for Dandel, and if I have any time for more scumhunting, it will be on you dan. Please feel free to reply to this so I can think about what to do before lynch-time. -Mr. CC I like his style a lot, and have thought he was very townie. However, I need to actually read what hes said just like I just did to dandel to see if its content or fluff, but I REALLY need to sleep, so I cant. One of you lurkers (or someone), take up this job while Im lurking between now and lynch-time. Otherwise Ill get to it Day2 if Im still alive. The only thing against him is the post I made a few posts up about him giving me a seriously stern 'look', where its almost like he defends and attacks me at the same time. So....interesting. -Da0ud is somewhere among my roco dandel alsn (discounting no posters) list, but I honestly have no idea what hes said, and without knowing this knowledge I would be uncomfortable voting for him right now. -And that leaves the rest of you Ive made the risky leap of faith to label as townies for now: Djo, rad, debears, and Mr CC depending on what he says and when I read all his stuff. I am very hesitant to do this, but I think I will have plenty of time to change my vote. I would vote for you right now Dandel, and will do so at the end of the day if you fail to answer any of my questions, but while we wait for your responses I want to poke for more information. ##Vote: imcaseyTell me why I should not vote for you. Thanks for digging this up an hour before I would have addressed it anyways. This part is his defense from the post+ Show Spoiler +Why I FoS'd Roco: It should be clear from my post, I would have thought, but I wanted to pressure him. Into explaining himself, into making scumreads, anything. Sadly, he has not done that. You probably don't understand this concept, but one of the hardest things in Newbie games is finding out if somebody is bad-town or scum. Do you honestly think I would have an awesomesauce 100% scumread on somebody after 2 posts? No can do, sorry. Which is why I wanted him to post more, to find out. He's not done that, which makes him MORE suspicious to me. It can be an intentional strategy: He doesn't post after being under suspicion, then before the deadline he comes in to vote somebody, so he doesn't get modkilled. The thing now: If he does that, he's confirmed himself scum in my eyes. If he doesn't do that, he gets modkilled for not voting. Logical conclusion: Despite what I said yesterday about lynching him if he doesn't post (which I primarily said to get him to post), I don't really want to vote him TODAY. Because assuming he keeps the lurking up, he either confirms himself scum or gets modkilled. If he starts posting normally again, I'm gonna have to rethink that again, but seeing as he's been afk for >24 hours already, that's unlikely anyways. I explained why I like to emphasise lurker policy: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=19#362I even dumbed it down really hard in that post, you should be able to understand it. No, town benefits from having more information. Your argument IS WIFOM. Again. Stop it. What's even worse, is that you seem to possess the mental capability to UNDERSTAND lurker policy (reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=10#198Show nested quote +For lurking I think it seems even more of an issue in Newbie games than regular games because too many lurkers results in mafia wins most of the time in the Newbie games I looked at. That said, if we get any confirmed mafia I'll always vote confirmed mafias over suspicious lurkers. This quote, you not only show that you understand lurkers are a problem for town, yet you find me suspicious for trying to limit the lurking in this game? Because doing something that's good for town and bad for scum, through some random reason translates to "OH BOY THIS GUY IS SUSPICIOUS AS HELL" in your brain? I don't get it. You're not making sense imo. AND THE WORST PART: You do the same fucking thing you accuse me of doing to Roco, just worse. (because casey looks like a serious modkill candidate, and didn't say anything you could derive a scumread from. I was at least going for the lurker that had scummy posts, you just told yourself "Yes, going for a 25% chance of hitting scum is a good idea!") You're a hypocrite, and I think you're scum. But, in contrast to you, I won't just call you scummy in a big post and then vote a random dude that has a high chance of getting modkilled. I'm voting you! ##vote Inigmaticalism This post is basically saying that Ini's is using WIFOM arguments against dandel and voting for lurker. The timing is right for this OMGUS vote on Ini because I have already made my case about it and debears starts to be seriously concerned by Ini at this point. There is not enough content in my opinion to justify a vote on Ini. The second is the case on kush during N1. Please note that at the exception of Roco, he has only Ini as a serious scumread for D1. Anyway, here is the second scumhunting post of dandel in this game + Show Spoiler +On October 27 2012 22:36 Dandel Ion wrote:Okay, so here goes: Djo is looking really scummy now. Remember the slip calling daoud a townie? By now, I'm thinking that it actually was a scumslip. Djo just said "dw guise, it was a slip, but not a scumslip. Trust me!" And people actually did that. My take on that: He wanted to buddy up daoud, and slipped in the process. The day 1 cases against him didn't hold much ground in my eyes, but daoud's flip changes things. ##FoS DjoSo Djo is looking scummy, but I have an even stronger scumread, and I'll tunnel this one (like I promised I would!) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=28#547 (also some later posts, won't link all the relevant ones here) He comes into the thread, dismisses the Inig cases with some excuse about how he is "sharing his thoughts" (a convenient way to ignore WHAT those thoughts actually were), and proclaims daoud scum instead. now, the post where daoud voted Inig WAS weird. I'll admit that. I also commented on that when I read it. But it honestly was not such a big deal as Kush pretended it was. His further points on daoud: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=31#609He excused Djo's scumslip too easily. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=31#616He drags out a random quote of daoud from another game, and uses it as "evidence" that his meta is wrong. Later, he tries to imply a townread on Inig AND a way to subtly imply daoud is scum, just because Inig placed a useless vote on me. Note how this is actually a gigantic logical fallacy, since for this to hold true, he has to look at it from the perspective that Inig is scum, but he somehow draws the conclusion that town is more likely to do that? Wat? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=32#625http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=32#629I CONSIDER THIS A SCUMSLIP, since he does logic assuming Inig is scum, even though he doesn't get tired of soft-defending Inig and excusing him as "newbie town" (a horrible defense, I think we agreed on that already), and even when he says he considers it a null-tell, he is trying to make it look as something town is more likely to do (which, by the way, is wrong too) Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 22:06 kushm4sta wrote:
Someone give me a meta read on debears. Is he usually this angry and rambunctious? I don't know his meta but it seems kind of fake to me.
And also his little stunt in the pony thread could be something to try to convince people following that thread that he is town.
(I actually did this when I got mafia several games ago) You played scum WITH debears. Don't act like you don't know him. His scum meta is something you should be perfectly familiar with. So I don't believe your "I don't know" bullshit. It just looks like you're trying to sow baseless suspicions. Same with this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=36#713You're trying to imply suspicious behaviour in another thread, from a relatively random comment, that doesn't neccessarily have anything to do with this game at all. That's bad enough. But then the part about how he PM'd you? wtf is this even trying to accomplish? If somebody PMs you, and you actually have a problem with it, you PM the host. Don't go into the thread to wave it around. And then you act like it's a null read anyways? WHY THANK YOU FOR THIS CONTRIBUTION You're just trying to shit up the thread and undermine the position of somebody that most people (including me) have a townread on. ##FoS Kush So here I'm becoming suddenly scummy because of the flip of daoud. My previous slip on him becomes a scumslip and changes everything. I personally don't like this part because of my alignment but I know it is not incriminating in itself. But if this slip has made him changing his mind about his read on me, he couldn't accuse me of being SK in the future, couldn't he ? Concerning kush, we know already that kush was town. I'm saying once again that this is quite opportunistic. Dandel knows kush and I'm pretty sure he knows what happens when you tunnel him: Kush starts a flame war and gets mislynched. I'm not saying that suspecting kush was bad (kush always looks scummy) but it sure is to tell him something like "I'm gonna tunnel you to death". You are sure to get some disruption if you are doing it that way. Remember that we should try to promote good atmosphere in this thread. And here is the last case of dandel. He seems to have forget that he changed his mind about me because I was having extra-information. He says that he has a SK read on him without backing it up properly (it is a feeling, you know). + Show Spoiler +On October 28 2012 20:03 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 10:17 Djodref wrote:On October 28 2012 09:41 Dandel Ion wrote:
Djodref, why are you being so certain that mafia is responsible for the kill on Sylver?
Is there something you want to tell us? @ dandelPlease show me in my post where I'm "so certain". I'm using conditional verbal forms... >.> Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 09:29 Djodref wrote:I think sylver has been killed for this post On October 25 2012 13:44 sylverfyre wrote:
I feel like asking everyone a loaded question, but one that makes sense for a newbie game:
If you're not completely new to mafia (maybe you've played a few games IRL/elsewhere, or this isn't your first game on TL)
What's your favorite role to play in mafia?
I feel like I'm one of few who actively enjoys being a vanilla townie more than scum or a power-townie. It feels that much better when you're part of a victory! Maybe I'm wrong in this being an uncommon choice of favorite role, though. I would say mafia was trying to snipe a blue and managed to do it. Regarding Kush death, I would say vig or SK. Both makes sense. But jailkeeper + vig + detective seems imba so I think we have a SK. Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 09:31 Djodref wrote:
By the way, if mafia is blue sniping, I would think that they have nobody on their ass right now. Your posts heavily imply that mafia is bluesniping Sylver, and you don't even aknowledge the possibility that Kush was the scum KP. Cheesecake's point about how fast you found a good reason to kill Sylver is also pretty good in my opinion. I mean, I checked his filter again, too, but I didn't even really think about that. To me, it sounds plausible that you've thought about it beforehand. I just want you to admit shooting either of them. You could still be scum, but the read I'm getting from you really strongly is SK. Now, my sample size is not the biggest, but I played a single game with a SK. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=367548 (doesn't say in the OP, but it's thrawn) And your play feels SO MUCH like thrawn's that game, it's not even funny. Since there's been no Vig claim, I'll have to assume a SK in the game now. Because it doesn't really make sense to NOT claim vig, he'd have no shots left, and would be, for all intents and purposes, be confirmed town. Which is something I'd like very much, at this point. Reasons to not claim Vig: If you're actually the SK and you'd incriminate yourself when there comes another night with 2 NKs. That's it. Conclusion: Djo is either SK, or scum. Both are reasons to lynch him, to me. ##Vote DjodrefThat said, does anybody even care about this game anymore?...
Not promoting his lynch targets
+ Show Spoiler +In this paragraph, I'm going to talk mainly about how dandel handled Ini. This two guy was dandel target during D1 and he kept Ini at the top of his scumlist all the time as far as I know. This is a post 10hours before the lynch + Show Spoiler +On October 26 2012 23:07 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 22:56 Djodref wrote:On October 26 2012 22:47 Dandel Ion wrote:
Man, I did get a bit emotional, I admit, but I really do consider him scummy. Not just because he accused me specifically.
I can see, however, that Ingi lynch will probably not go through today, since nobody wants to support it.
I'm keeping my vote on him for now (because, conversely, I don't find the Djo suspicions to be too compelling) and I still have hope that maybe some people will look at it the same way. @DandelWe have plurality lynch system, so we don't need to consolidate, and I have no idea how many people are actually going to vote today... Could you tell us more about why you want to lynch Ini ? You just HAVE to ask this while I'm getting second thoughts about it... My case, combined with my defense of his post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=25#482I should probably have split the two better, I guess. What made my originally suspicious (apart from the whole not-doing-anything he did for a long time), I explained here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=20#382I didn't word to too agressively, because just this one thing wouldn't make him scum alone. But, both of those factors combined, he's (still) my stronged scumread right now. And here is one hour before the lynch On October 27 2012 08:08 Dandel Ion wrote:
Okay, so far, I've not seen anything that would make me unvote inig, or alleviate my scumread on him.
So I'm going to keep my vote on him unless somebody claims scum within the hour. So basically he has done nothing to push his strongest scumread to be lynched. Once again, I'm going to show debears as an example. Debears was fighting to get Ini lynched. Dandel didn't care. Not pushing your scumreads is a big scumtell in my book. But we are not over with Ini. Please look at his "last will" post before D2. You are supposed to be serious in these posts. + Show Spoiler +On October 28 2012 08:54 Dandel Ion wrote:
If I'm dead, please lynch Kush.
2nd priority would be Inig.
- I would be tremendously surprised if there isn't at least one scum between the two of them.
I get a strong town feeling from Rad. Once he learns how to make a proper case, you should (at least) listen to him.
debears I'm leaning town, Djo I'm leaning scum, but those reads are not as strong.
Everyone else is pretty null to me, with only slight feel-reads in either direction, or real proper null reads. So right after the beginning of D2, one of the two is certainly scum in his opinion.He is leaning scum on me. If it is not kush, it has to be Ini. But is he pushing for an Ini lynch for D2 ? No, because he has found a better target, the SK.
Not willing to lynch scum
+ Show Spoiler +
This part is the most incriminating one in my opinion. If you read dandel's filter from the end of N1 to the beginning of D2, you can guess that he has a very strong scumread on Ini, which he doesn't mention so much during the beginning of D2 (you know, because he doesn't care so much about it after all). And he has suddenly a strong SK read on me.
"You could still be scum, but the read I'm getting from you really strongly is SK." his own words
And then he proceeds to forget about Ini and proceeds to push my lynch.
Who is choosing SK over scum ? mafia especially in a 5vs3vs1 situation
You have to understand that going after the SK is a very strong scumtell in this situation. And he supposedly has an almost confirmed mafia player to vote instead of me at that moment.
I'm willing to stay up all night long to discuss these reasons over and over again. They are strong indicatives of scumplay. Please give me your feedback ^^
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Regarding the beginning of D2, I find it quite weird that dandel considered the possibility for Kush to have been killed by the mafia. He has played a game were he was mafia and he had kush as a self-claimed jailkeeper and they didn't even kill him.
Kush is never night killed by the mafia, even if he fears it a lot, that is known 
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lol
I have just dog this up in debears filter. I bring it up here for the lulz and for the lulz only
On October 26 2012 00:49 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 00:46 sylverfyre wrote:On October 26 2012 00:37 Dandel Ion wrote:On October 26 2012 00:35 sylverfyre wrote:On October 26 2012 00:24 Djodref wrote:
@sylver
I don't care about who hasn't posted right now. I want to know what info you were expecting to get by asking your question. I was making that list because I wasn't even sure myself who/how many people hadn't spoken up. I was trying to stir something up and you can also consider it a kind of "roleclaim-lite" (I hardly expect anyone to claim they enjoy playing scum when I ask ingame, but i think it could have been interesting to see if some people said they like a particular pro-town power-role.) So, you admit you were rolefishing? Yes, I am trying to get people to talk about roles without doing something as ridiculous as asking for a D1 mass claim. Also I am trying to get to know the other players in general. No, No. No. No. No. Talking about roles is stupid. It gives the mafia stuff to go on when looking for nk candidates. DON'T DO IT.
I think that someone caught up on this, if you know what I mean
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Is Roco imb4 vote on dandel going to be taking in account in the vote count ?
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Insulting people is my town meta now?
I did not ask for this...
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 29 2012 03:51 debears wrote:wow lol posted it in the last newbie. Thrawn we did the same thing :/ fuck me lol A Second case on Djo Since my first case, Djo hasn't done much to help my read on him. In fact, after rereading his filter again, I'd say my scumread on him is even stronger. Points in the original case/cases1) Stated and Acted as though he had a town read on me day 1, then denies it when pressured by Rad Have my actions ever indicated that I have been doubted my read on you ? I fucked up my wording in my response to Rad's post. Go read this post again and add a 100% in the sentence to get "I don't consider him as 100% town" and you'll see that everything is going to make a lot of sense2) His two scumslips (slips as he calls them) - Dau0d town comment and the slip when talking about Alsn's fOS I don't remember the slip in Alsn's FoS. Could you please bring it up ? I have looked your first case again and I didn't find it.3) Wanting me to "Take care of Rad" day 1 Same, I had a town read on you and you are pressing your targets enough.The Day 1 lynch+ Show Spoiler +First, I want to point out his indecisiveness and apparent apathy to who he wanted lynched. Djo's first actual pursuit was Inig. He was pressing on Inig pretty well. However, when asked who he would want to lynch, he says Sylver (with his vote on Inig) On October 27 2012 00:51 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 00:42 kushm4sta wrote:
More on daoud:
He seems much more careful about what he says this game than last game.
Last games his posts were like WTF is this weird guy talking about.
This game they look like he doesn't want to catch anyone's attention.
Why we shouldn't lynch djodref today:
He does look pretty scummy. But I don't see how anyone can have a lot of certainty in that read.
Combination of high activity and low certainty means he should not lynch him.
Also realize that djodref is in a position where he NEEDS to evolve his meta whether he is town or scum.
His first game he played as a noob, understandable because it was his first game. His second game, he pretended to be a noob as a scum strat. I think showing that he is better than the newb he pretended to be last game would be the natural play for town djodref, and also scum djodref trying to appear as town djodref.
Djo: who out of the active players seems scummiest to you? Also why did you bring up how you want to lynch a lurker without even trying to pressure your scumreads? @KushDebears and Rad are looking quite ok. I'm leaning town for both of them. I'm waiting for Cheese to post what he has to say about me because I'm still null on him. I didn't like some posts from sylver but he had some nice reactions during our latest fight. I need some time to look at dandel. I didn't like the way he voted Inig, but he said he was not sure even. I would say sylver right now... But I've been spending too much time defending myself. I need to calm down and re-read some filters for a while. A couple of posts later, he unvotes and states why he doesn't want to lynch Inig suddenly. On October 27 2012 01:03 Djodref wrote:
Regarding an Inig's lynch, I'm not comfortable with it...
In my opinion, he had a positive response after my case against him. I doubt that he could be a scum after that. His role claim was looking really sincere. If he can improve his presence in the thread and his scumhunting, I don't want to lynch him. I'm going to unvote him.
I would cast my vote on Roco or imcasey if they magically reappear. I'll wake up early tomorrow to see if the bandwagon is still against me or not.
If you are town, do not sheep and cast your vote against me. Read my filter and make your own opinion by yourself.
You are going to feel some heat if you cast your vote too lightly because I'm going to flip green.
I'm sorry but I need some sleep guys
## Unvote
That's quite the turnaround after the pressure and vote On October 27 2012 08:20 Djodref wrote:
@debears
No, I'm not comfortable with any of the lynches to be honest. I'm looking at their filter over and over again and try to find some little clues...
Regarding Inig, I should vote him if I was only a rational machine (no scumhunting at the beginning, wishy washy on Cheese, voting imcasey unexpectedly, the slip you have found, etc...) but I feel him as sincere in his posts.a
Not sure why he claimed though.
Regarding daoud, I have no reasons to vote for him at the exception of his hasty vote. His only reason for not voting Inig was that Inig seemed "sincere". In fact, he said that it would be rational to lynch Inig based on his posting. That one post is a huge contradiction. Notice how during his time, he puts suspicion on Sylver. Also, notice the timing of the unvote. He unvoted when there were other people agreeing with his case. That's really weird combined with the "he's sincere" reasoning on Inig.
On October 27 2012 08:53 Djodref wrote:
ok, I'm really doubting my previous case against you. And you are actually trying to participate.
I don't want to lynch you today.
Problem is I don't want to lynch daoud neither.
What should I do ?
I was in an impossible situation. I had and I still have a strong gut feeling for a newbie town Ini after that he has answered to my case. I'm feeling him sincere when he role claim VT even if his filter is full of scummy shits. I was trying to convince myself by looking at the scummy parts only but it didn't work. I couldn't see myself voting him.
On the other hand, I didn't want to lynch daoud but I didn't fight against it and that was my biggest mistake. More on daoud's vote on the next part.
I'm sorry to add some WIFOM but I would never had done this kind of shit as scum. Check my game in the Looney, I'm striving for not standing out.Djo's approach on Dau0d+ Show Spoiler +Despite Djo's suspicions on Inig and Sylver, he ends up voting Dau0d. Why? Lets see On October 27 2012 08:56 Djodref wrote:
## Vote daoud
Because his involvement in this game has not been great so far... Not the greatest reasoning. He does provide some reasoning right after though. On October 27 2012 08:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 08:46 debears wrote:
Bad word choice on my part. Bad = weak in my post.
And the same points on inig and dauod.
1) semi lurker
2) town reads/ percent town reads
3) generally blending in
Give me Allow me to ameliorate for you, sir. 1.) Inig was a semi lurker to begin with. As of late, he has been posting more and with greater content. Da0ud, on the other hand, has contributed much less and is still lurking. 2.) Let's look at both of their percentage town reads. Inigs:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 16:17 Inigmaticalism wrote:
I would label Djo as like 70% town. Hes been consistent and contributing. I think hes gone after me too long to be mafia. He has talked an awful lot though. Its probably more likely, with all his questions and style of scumhunting, thats hes a vigi or SK or something like that, seeing who he can get lynched (who he thinks is scum if hes vigi, etc), and then who he cant hes found his night targets. Just a thought.
Da0ud's:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 22:41 da0ud wrote:
Talking about smileyDjo he has put a lot of pressure on people. Asking open questions etc. For having played a game with him where he played to nice lovable newbie card, I believe he is trying to step up and actually be a leader for town. I put him 90% town.
Inig has more reason for considering Djo town, and puts it at 70% (leaning town). He says he's been consistent, obviously posting alot, and going after him of all people. He likes this, and even offers some counter-roles that he could be instead of mafia. Da0ud on the other hand only says "hey, he's asking questions, must be 90% (almost definitely town)" I find Da0uds reasons for thinking Djo town less plausible than Inigs, and he almost considers him town. 3.) Inig has been more distinguished in asking questions / contributing. His theory on Dandel is intriguing and unique, and something I may want to follow up on in the future. His vote of imcasey and Dandel is anything BUT blending in. Notice his reasoning. It's literally almost the same for Inig. Yet, he feels that Inig was "more distinguished in asking questions/contributing". I don't get it. Also, he didn't think Dau0d's meta was different than Dau0d's town game when he posted this earlier. On October 27 2012 00:53 Djodref wrote:
Regarding daoud, I don't want to lynch him because he has reacted quite fast and naturally to my slip.
Him posting some nonsense about the possibility of a SK just after totally fits his meta.
He needs to post a lot more though... He flip-flopped onto Dau0d after kush's case while spreading suspicion onto 2 other plays (slyverfyre and Inig). His reasoning for moving his suspicion around was poor at the best. To me, it seems like he didn't care who got lynchedThis was posted after the lynch On October 27 2012 17:53 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 08:20 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Okay I just got back, and will be here pre and post lynch.
My thoughts on the current state of affairs. It seems the lynch is in favor of Inig, but Da0ud following close behind. My vote on Djo is obviously not doing any good. I still consider him suspicious, and he is by no means off the hook. My efforts right now are better spent deciding who is a better lynch candidate: Da0ud or Inig.
/snip
@ CheeseAt this point, were you considering that daoud and Inig were better candidate than me ? You have been suspecting me for quite a long time D1 and you suddenly prefer to lynch daoud because some replacement came in and told you he was scummy ? You alsmost didn't consider him at all until that point yet you have no problem with lynching him instead of your top scumread (which was me) ? I'm pretty surprised that you didn't try to push my lynch. Isn't this similar to what Djo did? Yet Djo is calling him out for it? Djo had no considerations of Dau0d until the kush case was posted. On October 27 2012 23:19 Djodref wrote:"That being said, you were my best scum read at the time; but there was no chance of you being lynched." @ CheeseHere is a quote from you. Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 12:50 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
/snip
The constant asking for info on Ingi / diverting attention, his useless "are you mafia?" question that I pointed out earlier, the inability to adequately answer some of the accusations/questions thrown at him. It doesn't add up. Actually, it does add up. I'm thinking he's scum. I've had a FoS on you for quite some time now, Djodref. Time to upgrade it.
##Vote: Djodref As you can see, I was a little more than your best scumread. Nevertheless, you gave little to no protest about lynching daoud or ini over me. Big scumtell in my book. Have a look at debears reactions when people started to vote daoud. He was trying to push his case until the end.This commitment is a big towntell. Where was your reaction when you came back to thhe tread and realized that a lynch on me was "not possible" ? No protest, no comments about other people being stupid or whatever, not trying to push my lynch. And you proceeding to compare the percentage daoud and Ini were giving for their townread on me to decide who to lynch between the two... do you have any comments to do on this ? FoS Cheese Yet again, a FOS for hypocritical reasoning. Not only did Djo drop his top scumread for poor reasoning, he voted for Dau0d for poor reasoning. And now he's spreading suspicion on CheeseCake. This post, however, is the kicker On October 27 2012 08:00 Djodref wrote:
@ Cheese
What the fuck are you doing with your vote still on my back ?
Come in the thread and choose who you want to lynch today between daoud and Ini. Tell us your reasons about it ! Djo told him to change his vote in the first place!!!!!!!!!! Then, he tries to accuse Cheese of scum since Cheese did it???? Wow. Djo has little meta to go on with only 2 games. However, there are differences from his town game and scum game. These differences, related to this game, are not damning by any means, but do support that Djo could be scum. 1) Djo is capable of being active as scum. His filter was roughly 9 pgs as scum in Looney I was active but I was much less interacting with the other players. I was posting a lot of big posts by myself and I was taking a great advantage of the different timezones. I'm globally more active in this game.2)His case format this game compared to his other games http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=372945¤tpage=58#1147 - Game as scum http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374466¤tpage=23#441 - this game Look at the shocking similarities. Now, this could be how he likes to post now, since this is only his 3rd game. However, in looking at his first newbie as cop, no posts have the same format (Correct me if I'm wrong on this Djo) You are not wrong at all but it is just because I found a format that I like to do my cases. I'm still learning you know 3) Personality - Djo's personality this game is similar to his other games as cop and mafia. Take out the newbie card play, and he sounds the same in all 3. Thus, his personality is a null tell, but it mean that he can be mafia sorry for the incoming WIFOMA general comment on my meta is that I was playing quite safe in the Looney game. I would have never slipped if I was scum in this game. I would have never painted a red target on me with wishy washy votes at the end of D1. I would have not been standing out and everything. I've played a beautiful scum game in Looney and I'm not downgrading my play here because I'm not taking the newbie seriously. Obviously, I'm a better mafia player than a town player. Sorry for this but don't you dare fucking lynch me !A Common FallacyI think this game has fallen into the trap of activity = town. That is not always the case. Take a long hard look at Djo's filter and this case. His filter is huge and it was a bitch to go through. Mafia can hide in a big filter. I encourage everyone to take a long look at my filter and forge his own opinion. DO NOT SHEEP DEBEARS CASE !Djo is my number 2 scum read besides Dandel right now. I still need to see if Dandel even comes back (and defends himself properly + has something to contribute) before I would think of voting Djo. Let me know if you need clarification on anything. Reading Djo's filter + writing out the case = sucks
I'm addressing debears case in this post.
As usual, my comments are in bold font in the spoiler.
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On October 29 2012 19:20 Djodref wrote:Regarding the beginning of D2, I find it quite weird that dandel considered the possibility for Kush to have been killed by the mafia. He has played a game were he was mafia and he had kush as a self-claimed jailkeeper and they didn't even kill him. Kush is never night killed by the mafia, even if he fears it a lot, that is known
Oh god, can you be quiet about this?
Yes, I even said this in this thread, I wouldn't NK Kush as scum. But that doesn't mean that other people wouldn't, too.
I find it weird that you DIDN'T consider the possibility. Only now the Kush shot is claimed, so you didn't think about it because you are scum, and you shot Sylver.
You seriously like substituting scumhunting with NK speculation. Only a bit more than 12 hours left in the day, and you still use your NK speculation nonsense to try and justify a scumread that you know is wrong.
Why? because your other arguments are things like "His cases on day 1 on people with ~2 posts were lacking in content" Well, no shit. You tell me a way to get content in there, and we can talk again.
btw, let's revisit how YOU explained your initial vote on Inig:
On October 26 2012 09:16 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 08:34 Inigmaticalism wrote:
Right now I dont have any scum reads, only town reads which Ive already said in earlier posts. So I would lynch one of the lurkers probably. Also, Djo you seem to be the only one really going after me, so while your asking everyone what they think of me, you should answer your own question. what you you think of me?
-Should be back to post something in around 6-7 hours. I have already my eyes on you and I think that your posts lack content and scumhunting. You are my top scumread right now. Let's assume that the lurkers are going to get modkill today, who would you like to lynch ? Vote-pressuring you ## Vote Inig
Now, that's a case of content! You even back off your "top" scumread in the same post by saying you are just pressuring him.
You later make a post saying the same exact thing, just with a huge bolded "WHY WE SHOULD LYNCH INIG" as the title.
In there, you rehash the point other people already made (Me, for example) about the WIFOM as the only additional thing to explain the upgrade from "just pressuring".
WIFOM/association zone, enter at own risk:
+ Show Spoiler +I think Roco is in a scumteam with Djo.
It explains why nobody really defended Djo yet (although he wasn't particularily in danger day 1), and also how he hasn't been modkilled yet. But he comes into the thread now, and tries to vote me for a really shady reason? I guess we know which wagon he would prefer...
Also, Djo often tries to defend himself by pointing out that nobody is defending him, which I interpret as him trying to get even a slight advantage out of being in a scumteam with lurkers.
I consider this vote as Roco claiming scum, and he shows he doesn't want to lynch Djo.
Why is he so obvious about it? It's his first game AND he's been afk for most of it. I sure don't expect subtlety from him.
_____________________
By this theory, the third scum is probably Nachkt. Inig is actually unlikely with how Djo was over him day1 for no good reason.
I don't have a scumread on Alsn, even though I am disappointed in his play so far. If the third scum is active, however, it would likely be debears, since I consider him experienced enough to not defend a scumbuddy if need be. But I also don't have a scumread on debears, so by process of elimination, it pretty much has to be Djo/Roco/Nachkt
Djo tried to bus Nachkt early in day 1, probably because NAchkt told him he wouldn't come back, so Djo tried to salvage towncred for himself, for catching scum, instead of watching him get modkilled.
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@ dandel
Why did you no try to push the lynch of Inig at the end of D1 ?
Why did you consider me as a possible SK when the key thing that had made you changed your mind was my scumslip ?
Why do you want to lynch a SK over a mafia player ?
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By the way if you think that I am scum, please bring your case against me because I have not seen one so far...
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And I'm sorry to tell you this but my case against Ini, while not having a lot of content, is better than my initial voting post that you quoted. Please find it in the spoiler...
+ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2012 12:22 Djodref wrote:
Why we should lynch Inig
First of all, I would like you to read Inig's filter before you read this case. It's not going to take you long time and you should also make your own opinion by yourself. I would like to lynch Inig for the following reasons
- Total lack of scumhunting
- Emotionally detached from this game
- Attempt to gain town cred by using a WIFOM argument
Total lack of scumhunting+ Show Spoiler +Even if he is claiming that he has done some scumhunting, Inig has not given us any scumread and has asked a total of two questions to other players. He is not putting pressure or anyone or trying to understand the motives of anyone. On October 25 2012 15:39 Inigmaticalism wrote:
Ah yes i see, the 'why' is more important than the 'what'. Excellent, Sylver answer Djo when u wake up. On October 26 2012 08:34 Inigmaticalism wrote:
Right now I dont have any scum reads, only town reads which Ive already said in earlier posts. So I would lynch one of the lurkers probably. Also, Djo you seem to be the only one really going after me, so while your asking everyone what they think of me, you should answer your own question. what you you think of me?
-Should be back to post something in around 6-7 hours. As you can see, he is not really committing, even when he asks some questions. When I'm reading Inig's filter, I have the feeling that he is spectating this game and not a part of it. This is a characteristic of mafia players. He tries to look active by telling us what is going on in the thread in his view but he is not giving us extra information. This post is a perfect example of such an empty posing style. On October 25 2012 15:27 Inigmaticalism wrote:I have a thought regarding the Rad-Debears argument, over the whole 'confidence' thing. Its possible Im wrong, but it seems that Rad views the world in a more 'logical' way, meaning that in this case (playing mafia) having sound logic and scum reads will naturally result in confidence from said logic. Debears may happen to be more 'emotional', in this case where having a strong will/confidence allows for people like him (and me) to be very logical when there is a strong emotional base beneath them. You've both brought up the pros and cons about each type of viewpoint, so it should be beneficial if you guys watch out for each other. It seems you've both explained what you meant fairly well, and Im especially glad to see this post from you Rad cause I was getting slightly worried. Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 14:11 Rad wrote:
EBWOP - I also agree that there's no point in lynching a lurker over a clear scum read. That's not what I said originally but is what he's trying to make it seem like I said. Ha just saw you summed up my analysis for me: Show nested quote +You're pushing for "have confidence, the scum will show" while I'm pushing for "find the scum, if you're confident push it, otherwise we should lynch lurker". That stance seems completely reasonable to me. Does it not to you? @ sylver You seem fairly energetic. Also, don't really think "What's your favorite role to play in mafia?" keeps us all that focused on scum hunting, but as it may be some clever scheme of yours Ill bite. ......Well actually I won't because I realized I was typing how I play the game. How clever. Loaded question indeed. This is the most incriminating point in my opinion. Please have a careful look at the following part from Ini in bold font. On October 26 2012 03:42 Inigmaticalism wrote:
/snip
As for everyone else I need to read their posts again. It seems my scum-hunting has so far resulted in town-finding, but thats how its gone. Also, I deliberately dodged sylvers question about what your favorite role is to play to show I was town(which, ironically because he was role hunting, still answered his question). I would never have posted such an awkward response if I was mafia, I would have simply ignored the question all together, but it seems no one took it that way. How can you show that you are town by not answering question ? Why does he bring something like this up ? Mafia players usually try to get as much town cred as they can, for whatever weird reason. I think he knows his reason to claim town are bad and that's why he is backing it up by a WIFOM argument.
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Dear Djo,
I wasn't 100% sure about Inig.
I said you were either SK or scum (this time I made it the "right" way around, just for you) because I had a scumread on you, and you posted this NK speculation nonsense you like so much. The way you were going on about how it was impossible that scum shot kush made me think you killed him, after you didn't claim Vig when I asked you about it, I thought SK was more likely.
It is not really a matter of lynching a SK OVER scum. You had a good chance of flipping either, and since Kush died, I didn't really have any strong scumreads left.
So in the end, you were my strongest scumread AND a SK candidate.
Lynching you was a win-win situation in my mind.
Now that the shot on Kush is accounted for, you are back to "only" being my top scumread.
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I admit that the content is not so much better but it matters a lot to promote your lynch targets. You should push for your lynches if you are town. And you have failed to do that...
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On October 29 2012 20:55 Djodref wrote:And I'm sorry to tell you this but my case against Ini, while not having a lot of content, is better than my initial voting post that you quoted. Please find it in the spoiler... + Show Spoiler +On October 26 2012 12:22 Djodref wrote:
Why we should lynch Inig
First of all, I would like you to read Inig's filter before you read this case. It's not going to take you long time and you should also make your own opinion by yourself. I would like to lynch Inig for the following reasons
- Total lack of scumhunting
- Emotionally detached from this game
- Attempt to gain town cred by using a WIFOM argument
Total lack of scumhunting+ Show Spoiler +Even if he is claiming that he has done some scumhunting, Inig has not given us any scumread and has asked a total of two questions to other players. He is not putting pressure or anyone or trying to understand the motives of anyone. On October 25 2012 15:39 Inigmaticalism wrote:
Ah yes i see, the 'why' is more important than the 'what'. Excellent, Sylver answer Djo when u wake up. On October 26 2012 08:34 Inigmaticalism wrote:
Right now I dont have any scum reads, only town reads which Ive already said in earlier posts. So I would lynch one of the lurkers probably. Also, Djo you seem to be the only one really going after me, so while your asking everyone what they think of me, you should answer your own question. what you you think of me?
-Should be back to post something in around 6-7 hours. As you can see, he is not really committing, even when he asks some questions. When I'm reading Inig's filter, I have the feeling that he is spectating this game and not a part of it. This is a characteristic of mafia players. He tries to look active by telling us what is going on in the thread in his view but he is not giving us extra information. This post is a perfect example of such an empty posing style. On October 25 2012 15:27 Inigmaticalism wrote:I have a thought regarding the Rad-Debears argument, over the whole 'confidence' thing. Its possible Im wrong, but it seems that Rad views the world in a more 'logical' way, meaning that in this case (playing mafia) having sound logic and scum reads will naturally result in confidence from said logic. Debears may happen to be more 'emotional', in this case where having a strong will/confidence allows for people like him (and me) to be very logical when there is a strong emotional base beneath them. You've both brought up the pros and cons about each type of viewpoint, so it should be beneficial if you guys watch out for each other. It seems you've both explained what you meant fairly well, and Im especially glad to see this post from you Rad cause I was getting slightly worried. Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 14:11 Rad wrote:
EBWOP - I also agree that there's no point in lynching a lurker over a clear scum read. That's not what I said originally but is what he's trying to make it seem like I said. Ha just saw you summed up my analysis for me: Show nested quote +You're pushing for "have confidence, the scum will show" while I'm pushing for "find the scum, if you're confident push it, otherwise we should lynch lurker". That stance seems completely reasonable to me. Does it not to you? @ sylver You seem fairly energetic. Also, don't really think "What's your favorite role to play in mafia?" keeps us all that focused on scum hunting, but as it may be some clever scheme of yours Ill bite. ......Well actually I won't because I realized I was typing how I play the game. How clever. Loaded question indeed. This is the most incriminating point in my opinion. Please have a careful look at the following part from Ini in bold font. On October 26 2012 03:42 Inigmaticalism wrote:
/snip
As for everyone else I need to read their posts again. It seems my scum-hunting has so far resulted in town-finding, but thats how its gone. Also, I deliberately dodged sylvers question about what your favorite role is to play to show I was town(which, ironically because he was role hunting, still answered his question). I would never have posted such an awkward response if I was mafia, I would have simply ignored the question all together, but it seems no one took it that way. How can you show that you are town by not answering question ? Why does he bring something like this up ? Mafia players usually try to get as much town cred as they can, for whatever weird reason. I think he knows his reason to claim town are bad and that's why he is backing it up by a WIFOM argument.
I mentioned that.
In case you can't find it, let me quote that part.
You later make a post saying the same exact thing, just with a huge bolded "WHY WE SHOULD LYNCH INIG" as the title.
In there, you rehash the point other people already made (Me, for example) about the WIFOM as the only additional thing to explain the upgrade from "just pressuring".
I don't think it's better. You repeat 2 points, then you add the WIFOM that has been talked about already.
There was nothing original in that post, the only thing that's actually better is the formatting.
Do you think formatting is a suitable substitute for scumhunting?
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EPT
