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On September 01 2012 18:31 Kreb wrote:
I like the roles. To me they add depth to the game.
If there only was a cop and no miller/godfather, it just seems like he randomly could find a scum on the first or second night and that would give a huge advantage to the town. Later in the game he will undoubtedly have reads on 2-3 people and it seems extremely powerful. He might be able to finish the game by himself when theres 6-7 people left and maybe he has reads on 2-3 of them. At the right time, he roleclaim and reveals all his reads. He might even sacrifice himself to prove his reads are right and still win. To me that sounds rather boring. Winning as town should be done through successful day discussions, not through a cop randomly hitting perfect reads and then just finishing it by himself.
The cool thing about having a police with 100% accuracy is that it puts pressure on the maffia. While the town needs to figure out who's scum/townie, the mobsters need to figure out who's the police.
I don't think playing police is as easy as you make it out to be. The police can get night killed, which means he needs to leave hints. If they're too vague the town won't be able to spot them. Many maffia games have been lost because the police doesn't manage to get his peaks across. At the same time, if they're too obvious, the mobsters will be able to spot him and kill him off. The town needs to combat this with leaving fake hints as police cover, which in turn will provide info to the town if a fake police is getting lynched. With the current setup I doubt that police covering is a good strategy, at least it's way less important, which removes a cool part of the game.
The newbie town is at a disadvantage at the start of the game because the lack of experience will create confusion. The added complexity of the setup removes most reasonably easy ways to clear townies and spot mobsters, which puts them at an even greater disadvantage. If you look in the maffia game library, you can see that the results are 15 - 4.
Anyway, this is meant as feedback, not criticism. I'm obviously fine playing with this setup, that's what I signed up for. If a more experience player can comment on my thoughts I would appreciate it though. Perhaps this setup is awesome for reasons I haven't realized. My guess is that in a newbie game, the town is at least at a 75/25 disadvantage from the start.
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Yeah, it'd be pretty stupid if the game was decided purely with blue actions. I think blues make the game more interesting, but they can't be too powerful. Otherwise it's just a game of speculation and boredom for vanilla townies.
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lol sonic once the game starts make sure you don't edit your posts
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Not exactly a host / co-host but Kita said he's fine with me coaching so just to stick out a little:
sup dudes. PM me with anything you want. So far there's no plan in wether I coach town, mafia or both at the same time but I'd assume I'm coaching both right now and yeah don't worry, can deal with that.
So if you've got a question just shoot me a pm.
I'm obviously not going to answer questions like "who do you think is mafia?" but anything else is fine I guess.
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Will a vanilla townie know if he got roleblocked?
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On September 01 2012 20:12 Toadesstern wrote:
Not exactly a host / co-host but Kita said he's fine with me coaching so just to stick out a little:
sup dudes. PM me with anything you want. So far there's no plan in wether I coach town, mafia or both at the same time but I'd assume I'm coaching both right now and yeah don't worry, can deal with that.
So if you've got a question just shoot me a pm.
I'm obviously not going to answer questions like "who do you think is mafia?" but anything else is fine I guess.
Can we start asking question before the game starts?
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Will a townie know if he got rolecopped?
Are mobsters allowed to communicate privately 24/7?
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On September 01 2012 20:28 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 20:12 Toadesstern wrote:
Not exactly a host / co-host but Kita said he's fine with me coaching so just to stick out a little:
sup dudes. PM me with anything you want. So far there's no plan in wether I coach town, mafia or both at the same time but I'd assume I'm coaching both right now and yeah don't worry, can deal with that.
So if you've got a question just shoot me a pm.
I'm obviously not going to answer questions like "who do you think is mafia?" but anything else is fine I guess. Can we start asking question before the game starts?
no idea :p
I'm sticking with answering no questions in the thread pre-game unless one of the hosts gets in here telling me/us otherwise to be on the safe side :p
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On September 01 2012 20:30 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Are mobsters allowed to communicate privately 24/7?
yeah, example from newbie 24. that may not be the exact means for this game but I expect the same thing or something similar
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yeah anything like that, irc, skype conversations or TL-pms are 24/7 allowed for mafia.
People get notified when roleblocked no matter wether or not they got a role or not in 99% of the games. I'm saying 99% because Kita's the host and he could change it for some weird reasons but in general if a RB roleblocks someone that guy is going to get a pm along the lines of "dude you totally got roleblocked tonight!" no matter of alignment, no matter of role.
People being rolecopped or being targeted by information roles in general don't get a notification in 99% of the cases. Same reasoning for saying 99% like the last time.
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On September 01 2012 19:42 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 18:31 Kreb wrote:
I like the roles. To me they add depth to the game.
If there only was a cop and no miller/godfather, it just seems like he randomly could find a scum on the first or second night and that would give a huge advantage to the town. Later in the game he will undoubtedly have reads on 2-3 people and it seems extremely powerful. He might be able to finish the game by himself when theres 6-7 people left and maybe he has reads on 2-3 of them. At the right time, he roleclaim and reveals all his reads. He might even sacrifice himself to prove his reads are right and still win. To me that sounds rather boring. Winning as town should be done through successful day discussions, not through a cop randomly hitting perfect reads and then just finishing it by himself.
The cool thing about having a police with 100% accuracy is that it puts pressure on the maffia. While the town needs to figure out who's scum/townie, the mobsters need to figure out who's the police. I don't think playing police is as easy as you make it out to be. The police can get night killed, which means he needs to leave hints. If they're too vague the town won't be able to spot them. Many maffia games have been lost because the police doesn't manage to get his peaks across. At the same time, if they're too obvious, the mobsters will be able to spot him and kill him off. The town needs to combat this with leaving fake hints as police cover, which in turn will provide info to the town if a fake police is getting lynched. With the current setup I doubt that police covering is a good strategy, at least it's way less important, which removes a cool part of the game. The newbie town is at a disadvantage at the start of the game because the lack of experience will create confusion. The added complexity of the setup removes most reasonably easy ways to clear townies and spot mobsters, which puts them at an even greater disadvantage. If you look in the maffia game library, you can see that the results are 15 - 4. Anyway, this is meant as feedback, not criticism. I'm obviously fine playing with this setup, that's what I signed up for. If a more experience player can comment on my thoughts I would appreciate it though. Perhaps this setup is awesome for reasons I haven't realized. My guess is that in a newbie game, the town is at least at a 75/25 disadvantage from the start.
Link to the mafia game library?
Personally I looked at the ongoing mafia games thread and looked at ending posts.
XX - Town win
XXI - Mafia win
XXII - Town win
XXIII - Town win
XXIV - Didnt find
XXV - Town win
15-4 for mafia....?
Edit (yes I know I cant do it when game starts =) ): Found XXIV thread. Town win. So we have 5-1 to town last 6 newbie mafias. I'd definitely not want a 100% cop then...
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jeez guys some of us are gonna start off the game with 2 page filters already. fos on all yall.
GLHF
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Will there be messages distinguishing betweem different types of Blocking?
Example: A is twonie and B is mafia. B tries to kill A during the nightr but it doesnt succeed. The following things might have happened:
- Medic saved A
- Jailer saved A
- Jailer blocked B
- A is a Veteran and survived
What message will B get at dawn? Will it simply say "Your kill was unsuccessful" and as such leave all options open? Or will it say, "target was saved/target was not there/you were blocket/attack was successful but target survived" to distinguish between the four options?
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On September 01 2012 21:16 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 19:42 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:On September 01 2012 18:31 Kreb wrote:
I like the roles. To me they add depth to the game.
If there only was a cop and no miller/godfather, it just seems like he randomly could find a scum on the first or second night and that would give a huge advantage to the town. Later in the game he will undoubtedly have reads on 2-3 people and it seems extremely powerful. He might be able to finish the game by himself when theres 6-7 people left and maybe he has reads on 2-3 of them. At the right time, he roleclaim and reveals all his reads. He might even sacrifice himself to prove his reads are right and still win. To me that sounds rather boring. Winning as town should be done through successful day discussions, not through a cop randomly hitting perfect reads and then just finishing it by himself.
The cool thing about having a police with 100% accuracy is that it puts pressure on the maffia. While the town needs to figure out who's scum/townie, the mobsters need to figure out who's the police. I don't think playing police is as easy as you make it out to be. The police can get night killed, which means he needs to leave hints. If they're too vague the town won't be able to spot them. Many maffia games have been lost because the police doesn't manage to get his peaks across. At the same time, if they're too obvious, the mobsters will be able to spot him and kill him off. The town needs to combat this with leaving fake hints as police cover, which in turn will provide info to the town if a fake police is getting lynched. With the current setup I doubt that police covering is a good strategy, at least it's way less important, which removes a cool part of the game. The newbie town is at a disadvantage at the start of the game because the lack of experience will create confusion. The added complexity of the setup removes most reasonably easy ways to clear townies and spot mobsters, which puts them at an even greater disadvantage. If you look in the maffia game library, you can see that the results are 15 - 4. Anyway, this is meant as feedback, not criticism. I'm obviously fine playing with this setup, that's what I signed up for. If a more experience player can comment on my thoughts I would appreciate it though. Perhaps this setup is awesome for reasons I haven't realized. My guess is that in a newbie game, the town is at least at a 75/25 disadvantage from the start. Link to the mafia game library? Personally I looked at the ongoing mafia games thread and looked at ending posts. XX - Town win XXI - Mafia win XXII - Town win XXIII - Town win XXIV - Didnt find XXV - Town win 15-4 for mafia....? Edit (yes I know I cant do it when game starts =) ): Found XXIV thread. Town win. So we have 5-1 to town last 6 newbie mafias. I'd definitely not want a 100% cop then...
This is where I was looking: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=274334#6
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I think you reversed the role of A and B somewhere in there, that situation was kinda confusing
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On September 01 2012 21:51 Kreb wrote:
Will there be messages distinguishing betweem different types of Blocking?
Example: A is twonie and B is mafia. B tries to kill A during the nightr but it doesnt succeed. The following things might have happened:
- Medic saved A
- Jailer saved A
- Jailer blocked B
- A is a Veteran and survived
What message will B get at dawn? Will it simply say "Your kill was unsuccessful" and as such leave all options open? Or will it say, "target was saved/target was not there/you were blocket/attack was successful but target survived" to distinguish between the four options?
Roleblocks are dealt with prior to night actions. Kind of like a 2 stage process.
Firstly all roleblock actions are dealt with. Next thing is everything else. So if you roleblock someone who was about to shoot you that shot won't happen to begin with, so obviously the guy who would have been shot, if not for the RB, won't end up getting a notification because nothing happened to him to begin with.
+ Show Spoiler [confusion!] +A Jailer is not allowed to target himself but even if he was it wouldn't work because he'd target himself, which would end up roleblocking himself and prevent him from jailing himself in stage-1 of the night I guess?
B doesn't get a message at all unless he was roleblocked. So if he get's a roleblock message and his target is still alive it's fairly self-explanatory that his shot wasn't triggered because of the roleblock.
If he ended up shooting someone but the target survived (without being roleblocked himself) he won't get a notification either because the shot was successful. It's just that it took away the protection and not the life of his target. So at that point B has no clue wether he shot a vet or someone being protected.
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On September 01 2012 21:53 thrawn2112 wrote:
I think you reversed the role of A and B somewhere in there, that situation was kinda confusing
Yea I fixed it in an edit.
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On September 01 2012 22:01 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 21:51 Kreb wrote:
Will there be messages distinguishing betweem different types of Blocking?
Example: A is twonie and B is mafia. B tries to kill A during the nightr but it doesnt succeed. The following things might have happened:
- Medic saved A
- Jailer saved A
- Jailer blocked B
- A is a Veteran and survived
What message will B get at dawn? Will it simply say "Your kill was unsuccessful" and as such leave all options open? Or will it say, "target was saved/target was not there/you were blocket/attack was successful but target survived" to distinguish between the four options?
Roleblocks are dealt with prior to night actions. Kind of like a 2 stage process. Firstly all roleblock actions are dealt with. Next thing is everything else. So if you roleblock someone who was about to shoot you that shot won't happen to begin with, so obviously the guy who would have been shot, if not for the RB, won't end up getting a notification because nothing happened to him to begin with. + Show Spoiler [confusion!] +A Jailer is not allowed to target himself but even if he was it wouldn't work because he'd target himself, which would end up roleblocking himself and prevent him from jailing himself in stage-1 of the night I guess? B doesn't get a message at all unless he was roleblocked. So if he get's a roleblock message and his target is still alive it's fairly self-explanatory that his shot wasn't triggered because of the roleblock. If he ended up shooting someone but the target survived (without being roleblocked himself) he won't get a notification either because the shot was successful. It's just that it took away the protection and not the life of his target. So at that point B has no clue wether he shot a vet or someone being protected.
So 1, 2, 4 are undistinguable (is that a word?  ) while 3 recieves a "blocked" message!
Thanks!
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On September 01 2012 16:28 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 12:58 Blazinghand wrote:
Roles look standard and simple to me There are ELEVEN roles. IRL mafia games I played there are only 3 roles. Also 3 of the roles make cops totally unreliable... Cop is basically a useless role. For all the cop knows, all 3 mafias could be godfathers, and all the townies could be millers. He doesn't know what roles are in play or how many, therefore any information he gets is totally unreliable.
Taking a look at the types of setups used in past newbie games might help address your concerns.
On September 01 2012 18:31 Kreb wrote:
The newbie town is at a disadvantage at the start of the game because the lack of experience will create confusion. The added complexity of the setup removes most reasonably easy ways to clear townies and spot mobsters, which puts them at an even greater disadvantage. If you look in the maffia game library, you can see that the results are 15 - 4.
Anyway, this is meant as feedback, not criticism. I'm obviously fine playing with this setup, that's what I signed up for. If a more experience player can comment on my thoughts I would appreciate it though. Perhaps this setup is awesome for reasons I haven't realized. My guess is that in a newbie game, the town is at least at a 75/25 disadvantage from the start.
Generally we select setups that are balanced as a normal game, without taking into account that newer players are playing. As this is generally a learning experience, I think a skewed setup would cause people to make incorrect assumptions once they move on to the non-newbie games. The results may have started 15-4, but town has won the majority of the recent games, so I'm not sure the sample size is large enough to call it a 75/25 disadvantage.
Adding more than 2-3 roles may add complexity to the setup, but I don't think it impacts balance as much. Compared to a cop only setup, the possibility of medic role forces the mafia to decide between hitting the strongest player in the thread or hitting a player that is less likely to be saved. Framers and millers are present in the role list because we never want a sitatuion where a town can win simply by following the blue's night actions.
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On September 01 2012 22:16 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 22:01 Toadesstern wrote:On September 01 2012 21:51 Kreb wrote:
Will there be messages distinguishing betweem different types of Blocking?
Example: A is twonie and B is mafia. B tries to kill A during the nightr but it doesnt succeed. The following things might have happened:
- Medic saved A
- Jailer saved A
- Jailer blocked B
- A is a Veteran and survived
What message will B get at dawn? Will it simply say "Your kill was unsuccessful" and as such leave all options open? Or will it say, "target was saved/target was not there/you were blocket/attack was successful but target survived" to distinguish between the four options?
Roleblocks are dealt with prior to night actions. Kind of like a 2 stage process. Firstly all roleblock actions are dealt with. Next thing is everything else. So if you roleblock someone who was about to shoot you that shot won't happen to begin with, so obviously the guy who would have been shot, if not for the RB, won't end up getting a notification because nothing happened to him to begin with. + Show Spoiler [confusion!] +A Jailer is not allowed to target himself but even if he was it wouldn't work because he'd target himself, which would end up roleblocking himself and prevent him from jailing himself in stage-1 of the night I guess? B doesn't get a message at all unless he was roleblocked. So if he get's a roleblock message and his target is still alive it's fairly self-explanatory that his shot wasn't triggered because of the roleblock. If he ended up shooting someone but the target survived (without being roleblocked himself) he won't get a notification either because the shot was successful. It's just that it took away the protection and not the life of his target. So at that point B has no clue wether he shot a vet or someone being protected. So 1, 2, 4 are undistinguable (is that a word? ) while 3 recieves a "blocked" message! Thanks!
not sure about the jailer to be honest but I'd say so in this set-up considering the description of the role.
There's different definitions of "jailers" that are being used all the time. In this set-up he apparently is a combination of a medic and a RB which probably means that he's delt with like a medic when it comes down to safes, which would imply that the jailer get's a notification if he successfully safes someone as well, which I'm not to sure about.
Sometimes (actually most times considering the games I played) the jailer is something that makes his target completly untargetable by everything. Because he locks his target up nothing will hit him, no matter if he's targeted by 1KP, by 2 KP, by 18517158KP, by information roles (like a DT) or by whatever else you've got in stock + Show Spoiler [unnecessary information] + unless he gets targeted by a 2nd guy who wants to roleblock him, because roleblock and jailer both happen at the same time before everything else. That means that the guy gets roleblocked twice instead of just getting roleblocked by the jailer :p
Though the "protection" in the description of the jailer role heavily implies that he's just a combination of a RB and a medic like I mentioned and therefore can only protect from 1KP per night and won't make his target untargetable.
On September 01 2012 23:18 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 16:28 kushm4sta wrote:On September 01 2012 12:58 Blazinghand wrote:
Roles look standard and simple to me There are ELEVEN roles. IRL mafia games I played there are only 3 roles. Also 3 of the roles make cops totally unreliable... Cop is basically a useless role. For all the cop knows, all 3 mafias could be godfathers, and all the townies could be millers. He doesn't know what roles are in play or how many, therefore any information he gets is totally unreliable. Taking a look at the types of setups used in past newbie games might help address your concerns.
Quick. Ask Igrok for his pw and host with his account including setups like "everyone is a jester" or "every townie is a townie-GF. Every mafia is a mafia-medic" :p
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EPT
