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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
In the past, newbie games were typically won by scum. However, in the past 4-5 months or so, newbie games are typically won by town. The chief factor in deciding who wins a newbie game is which side has the better players. Who plays better wins, regardless of complexity.
Don't even worry about the setup. In all likelihood in a game of this size you'll have like 2-3 blue roles (probably one roleblocking/protecting role, one shooting/information role, and a third role that could be either), and mafia will have 1-2 PRs, including a roleblocker or framer, or maybe a roleblocker and a GF.
In fact, the biggest downfall of newbie towns is spending time speculating on the setup rather than scumhunting. Speculating on the setup in normal, non-themed games is like universally a hugeeeee waste of time.
Summary:
step 1) scum hunt
step 2) win
step not a step) speculate endlessly on setup
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Actually BH, if I could expand on that:
step 1) Find scum #1
step 2) Find scum #2
step 3) Find scum #3
step 4) win
Don't merge steps 1-3; find one at a time, and don't try to make wild connection theories based on a multi-person scumteam when you don't have allignment information. That also tends to be the downfall of town in newbie games.
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Everyone is forgetting hints for how to play scum!
Step 1) Bus teammate #1
Step 2) Bus teammate #2
Step 3) Mislynch to solo glorious victory!
(Don't take what I say to be true... Or should you???)
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On September 02 2012 03:06 BioSC wrote:
Everyone is forgetting hints for how to play scum!
Step 1) Bus teammate #1
Step 2) Bus teammate #2
Step 3) Mislynch to solo glorious victory!
(Don't take what I say to be true... Or should you???)
what about never reading your role pm till until 2 scum have been lynched and truthfully scumhunting up until that point?
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screw all those advices
Just roll /rnd-12 d1 and lynch/shoot that guy. You're sure to kill the GF that way. That's the best method to play mafia and it's empirically proven to be flaweless.
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/coach
Hai folks, reporting in as town coach for this fine game! Townies and blue roles, feel free to PM me for coaching and advice (Mafia can also PM me for advice as well, but you'll also have a separate mafia-coach in your QuickTopic thread).
We'll set up a private QuickTopic thread where we'll converse (I will not release the QT without your consent).
This is an optional service - I will only provide help if you contact me!
Things I will help you with unconditionally:
- "I'm lost! What do I doooooo?!?!?"
- How to establish yourself as town
- How to defend yourself from attacks
- Persuasive writing and proofreading posts
- How to pressure a player
- "What questions should I be asking?"
- ...and more... just ask!
Things I will help you with moderately:
- "How do I/you scumhunt?"
- "Am I justified in suspecting this player?"
- "Did I write a good case against this player? Why?"
- "Who should I use my Cop/Medic/Roleblocker night-action on?"
Things I will not help with:
- Allignments of specific players.
- My reads on specific players.
- Antagonizing other players.
- "How do I make my e-penis larger?"
- "What race should I play in Starcraft 2?"
When in doubt, just ask. There's very little that I won't help with to some extent, and the worst I can say is "no comment" =)
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On September 02 2012 02:52 Blazinghand wrote:
In the past, newbie games were typically won by scum. However, in the past 4-5 months or so, newbie games are typically won by town. The chief factor in deciding who wins a newbie game is which side has the better players. Who plays better wins, regardless of complexity.
Don't even worry about the setup. In all likelihood in a game of this size you'll have like 2-3 blue roles (probably one roleblocking/protecting role, one shooting/information role, and a third role that could be either), and mafia will have 1-2 PRs, including a roleblocker or framer, or maybe a roleblocker and a GF.
In fact, the biggest downfall of newbie towns is spending time speculating on the setup rather than scumhunting. Speculating on the setup in normal, non-themed games is like universally a hugeeeee waste of time.
Summary:
step 1) scum hunt
step 2) win
step not a step) speculate endlessly on setup
When you say "spending time speculating about the setup", do you mean speculating about which roles are actually in play?
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On September 01 2012 23:18 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 16:28 kushm4sta wrote:On September 01 2012 12:58 Blazinghand wrote:
Roles look standard and simple to me There are ELEVEN roles. IRL mafia games I played there are only 3 roles. Also 3 of the roles make cops totally unreliable... Cop is basically a useless role. For all the cop knows, all 3 mafias could be godfathers, and all the townies could be millers. He doesn't know what roles are in play or how many, therefore any information he gets is totally unreliable. Taking a look at the types of setups used in past newbie games might help address your concerns. Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 18:31 Kreb wrote:
The newbie town is at a disadvantage at the start of the game because the lack of experience will create confusion. The added complexity of the setup removes most reasonably easy ways to clear townies and spot mobsters, which puts them at an even greater disadvantage. If you look in the maffia game library, you can see that the results are 15 - 4.
Anyway, this is meant as feedback, not criticism. I'm obviously fine playing with this setup, that's what I signed up for. If a more experience player can comment on my thoughts I would appreciate it though. Perhaps this setup is awesome for reasons I haven't realized. My guess is that in a newbie game, the town is at least at a 75/25 disadvantage from the start. Generally we select setups that are balanced as a normal game, without taking into account that newer players are playing. As this is generally a learning experience, I think a skewed setup would cause people to make incorrect assumptions once they move on to the non-newbie games. The results may have started 15-4, but town has won the majority of the recent games, so I'm not sure the sample size is large enough to call it a 75/25 disadvantage. Adding more than 2-3 roles may add complexity to the setup, but I don't think it impacts balance as much. Compared to a cop only setup, the possibility of medic role forces the mafia to decide between hitting the strongest player in the thread or hitting a player that is less likely to be saved. Framers and millers are present in the role list because we never want a sitatuion where a town can win simply by following the blue's night actions.
Alright, makes sense. Thinking a little bit about this setup I think it has the potential of being a great game. Let's get this rolling!
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On September 02 2012 06:29 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 02:52 Blazinghand wrote:
In the past, newbie games were typically won by scum. However, in the past 4-5 months or so, newbie games are typically won by town. The chief factor in deciding who wins a newbie game is which side has the better players. Who plays better wins, regardless of complexity.
Don't even worry about the setup. In all likelihood in a game of this size you'll have like 2-3 blue roles (probably one roleblocking/protecting role, one shooting/information role, and a third role that could be either), and mafia will have 1-2 PRs, including a roleblocker or framer, or maybe a roleblocker and a GF.
In fact, the biggest downfall of newbie towns is spending time speculating on the setup rather than scumhunting. Speculating on the setup in normal, non-themed games is like universally a hugeeeee waste of time.
Summary:
step 1) scum hunt
step 2) win
step not a step) speculate endlessly on setup
When you say "spending time speculating about the setup", do you mean speculating about which roles are actually in play?
So the setup is what we call "semi-open" - the town knows what roles could exist, but not necessary what roles exist/how many (generally in a game of this size, there are 2-3 blue roles among the 9 total town-alligned players).
There's no way to know what roles exist, and as such, there's really no point in talking about them. Remember, town can win without power roles through analyzing posts and intent of other players. Town's primary objective is to analyze posts and find and lynch mafia members - talking about blue roles generally wastes time when you could be hunting for mafia.
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Are we waiting for confirmations? We need repalcements?
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I have actually never seen a newbie 12 player set-up with 3 blue roles.
Actually the F11 for 12 players makes it possible that there's either: 0, 1 or 2 blue roles for town so I wouldn't exactly say there's going to be 2-3 PRs :p
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On September 02 2012 08:31 Toadesstern wrote:
I have actually never seen a newbie 12 player set-up with 3 blue roles.
Actually the F11 for 12 players makes it possible that there's either: 0, 1 or 2 blue roles for town so I wouldn't exactly say there's going to be 2-3 PRs :p
I think it depends on the algorithm the host uses, and depends on the relative power/balance of the roles:
XX had a Tracker, Doctor, and Detective
XXI had 2 Veterans and a JailKeep
XXIV had a Jailkeeper, Doctor, and Vigilante
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As far as I'm aware, the game WILL be starting at 9PM EDT (roughly 1.5 hours)
I will be sending out role PMs about 30 mins prior to the start of the game, then posting the 1st day post at 9. I would ask that players don't post between sending role PM's and the start of the game, I will remind you all of course. Good luck, have fun!
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On September 02 2012 08:34 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 08:31 Toadesstern wrote:
I have actually never seen a newbie 12 player set-up with 3 blue roles.
Actually the F11 for 12 players makes it possible that there's either: 0, 1 or 2 blue roles for town so I wouldn't exactly say there's going to be 2-3 PRs :p I think it depends on the algorithm the host uses, and depends on the relative power/balance of the roles: XX had a Tracker, Doctor, and Detective XXI had 2 Veterans and a JailKeep XXIV had a Jailkeeper, Doctor, and Vigilante
yes of course it depends on the mafia PRs but in the orignial 12-man F11 a 3-blue case was not implemented. That's why I'm kinda shocked that you and apparently BH as well consider it more likely to be a 3-blue game and don't even include something like a 0 blues or 1 blue games in your thoughts, which has happened a lot as well :p
Anyways we probably shouldn't talk about this or kita kicks us out of his game 
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On September 02 2012 08:42 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 08:34 Hapahauli wrote:On September 02 2012 08:31 Toadesstern wrote:
I have actually never seen a newbie 12 player set-up with 3 blue roles.
Actually the F11 for 12 players makes it possible that there's either: 0, 1 or 2 blue roles for town so I wouldn't exactly say there's going to be 2-3 PRs :p I think it depends on the algorithm the host uses, and depends on the relative power/balance of the roles: XX had a Tracker, Doctor, and Detective XXI had 2 Veterans and a JailKeep XXIV had a Jailkeeper, Doctor, and Vigilante yes of course it depends on the mafia PRs but in the orignial 12-man F11 a 3-blue case was not implemented. That's why I'm kinda shocked that you and apparently BH as well consider it more likely to be a 3-blue game and don't even include something like a 0 blues or 1 blue games in your thoughts, which has happened a lot as well :p ...
Yeah for some reason, most of my newbie games have been with 3 blue roles. 2 in the event of something really powerful (i.e Medic/Detective). Really haven't seen a setup with 1 blue in any recent newbie games, though I wish a host would mess around with a 0 blue setup with more townies or something to balance things out.
Anyways we probably shouldn't talk about this or kita kicks us out of his game
I DO WAT I WANT! WHATEVA WHATEVA!
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On September 02 2012 08:59 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 08:42 Toadesstern wrote:On September 02 2012 08:34 Hapahauli wrote:On September 02 2012 08:31 Toadesstern wrote:
I have actually never seen a newbie 12 player set-up with 3 blue roles.
Actually the F11 for 12 players makes it possible that there's either: 0, 1 or 2 blue roles for town so I wouldn't exactly say there's going to be 2-3 PRs :p I think it depends on the algorithm the host uses, and depends on the relative power/balance of the roles: XX had a Tracker, Doctor, and Detective XXI had 2 Veterans and a JailKeep XXIV had a Jailkeeper, Doctor, and Vigilante yes of course it depends on the mafia PRs but in the orignial 12-man F11 a 3-blue case was not implemented. That's why I'm kinda shocked that you and apparently BH as well consider it more likely to be a 3-blue game and don't even include something like a 0 blues or 1 blue games in your thoughts, which has happened a lot as well :p ... Yeah for some reason, most of my newbie games have been with 3 blue roles. 2 in the event of something really powerful (i.e Medic/Detective). Really haven't seen a setup with 1 blue in any recent newbie games, though I wish a host would mess around with a 0 blue setup with more townies or something to balance things out. Show nested quote +Anyways we probably shouldn't talk about this or kita kicks us out of his game I DO WAT I WANT! WHATEVA WHATEVA!
Just do the Toad from WoF to balance things out.
"Hey wbg, let's give mafia a framer for the lulz to freak them out"
"lol, best idea ever"
ended up making them pretty paranoid and probably hurt them because of the assumptions they had.
So 9VT vs 2goon+1framer is probably balanced, whereas 9VT vs 3goon is not :p
as weird as that may sound.
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I'm DrH and I'm best at playing scum ( i suck really bad at town)
I'd like to /coach scum players if I could, I think it'd be fun. don't listen to anything toadesstern tells you for one
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On September 02 2012 09:08 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2012 08:59 Hapahauli wrote:On September 02 2012 08:42 Toadesstern wrote:On September 02 2012 08:34 Hapahauli wrote:On September 02 2012 08:31 Toadesstern wrote:
I have actually never seen a newbie 12 player set-up with 3 blue roles.
Actually the F11 for 12 players makes it possible that there's either: 0, 1 or 2 blue roles for town so I wouldn't exactly say there's going to be 2-3 PRs :p I think it depends on the algorithm the host uses, and depends on the relative power/balance of the roles: XX had a Tracker, Doctor, and Detective XXI had 2 Veterans and a JailKeep XXIV had a Jailkeeper, Doctor, and Vigilante yes of course it depends on the mafia PRs but in the orignial 12-man F11 a 3-blue case was not implemented. That's why I'm kinda shocked that you and apparently BH as well consider it more likely to be a 3-blue game and don't even include something like a 0 blues or 1 blue games in your thoughts, which has happened a lot as well :p ... Yeah for some reason, most of my newbie games have been with 3 blue roles. 2 in the event of something really powerful (i.e Medic/Detective). Really haven't seen a setup with 1 blue in any recent newbie games, though I wish a host would mess around with a 0 blue setup with more townies or something to balance things out. Anyways we probably shouldn't talk about this or kita kicks us out of his game I DO WAT I WANT! WHATEVA WHATEVA! Just do the Toad from WoF to balance things out. "Hey wbg, let's give mafia a framer for the lulz to freak them out" "lol, best idea ever" ended up making them pretty paranoid and probably hurt them because of the assumptions they had. So 9VT vs 2goon+1framer is probably balanced, whereas 9VT vs 3goon is not :p as weird as that may sound.
Oh man! When I played Mafia in XXI, we had a framer, thought there was a DT, and made like 2 awful attempts at detective snipes when the blue roles were 2 Vets + Jailkeep T_T
Probably works lol
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Alrighty kiddos, Role PM's are being sent out now.
A few reminders:
1) Please don't post here until the daypost is... posted.
2) No referencing the names of any coaches you may have. (BUT DO USE THEM, THEY ARE REALLY GOOD)
3) Have fun, hunt scum. (Unless you are scum, then hunt townies.)
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EPT
