EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXII - Page 41
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On July 27 2012 06:43 Zorkmid wrote: Okay, so right off the bat here we have a question that puts the conversation in an awkward area. Why would we ever want to discuss a no-lynch on the first day? It's the kind of question that leaves us talking about crazy circumstances and not about who is scummy and who is not. Distraction from scum huntingI'm not saying that the "best town play" isn't to lynch scum, I'm just saying that in the absence of that inactivity and liars are the next logical targets. Warning: Nub question::::We HAVE to lynch someone each day, right? The results of this clarification are even less thrilling: On July 27 2012 06:48 Zorkmid wrote: So he's distracting the town with no-lynch talk and then dismissing himself from the conversation to keep the spotlight off. When he finally comes back, we find out how truly newbie he's going to act:I'll have to think about that for a little while, hopefully while I'm gone we'll hear more from the others! On July 27 2012 08:15 Zorkmid wrote: This is truly a gem: a totally hands off way to let others start the scum hunting without getting his hands dirty at all.This makes perfect sense to me, so how we determine who to target initially? + Show Spoiler [in which Zorkmid parrots Shady Sands] + On July 27 2012 22:11 Zorkmid wrote: Another of these people is Golbat: So far, Golbat has, in this order: voted Mordanis unvoted Mordanis FoS Mordanis His unvote seems to coincide with Mordanis's making a case on him. He claims he backed off the vote because: + Show Spoiler + This reminds me of that futurama ambassador from the neutral planet. "All I know is that my guy says maybe." I'm not sure what this could mean, but I think that it's worth pointing out. It's one of the stranger seeming posts I've read in this game. Is the deadline today at 17:00 EDT? I am suspicious of both of these players right now, but there's lots of daylight left. Earlier in that post he just writes what happened with Mordanis and Keirathi regarding the RB conversation, telling us that his take on Mordanis' back and forth with Keir regarding a RB came away with Mordanis seeming town: On July 27 2012 22:11 Zorkmid wrote: I don't know if a Zorkmid flip tells us anything about Mordanis but keep this in mind if you're ever thinking about it.I see this as a GIANT leap of reasoning, and I still see Mordanis's case as an attempt (albeit a clumbsy one) to get the ball rolling in XXII. These three posts happen, look at the timestamps, and more specifically the content of the posts, to see the irony: On July 28 2012 01:14 Zorkmid wrote: Activity seems woefully slow. I guess that most of you are on different clocks that I am. On July 29 2012 01:58 Zorkmid wrote: I'm at wonderland for b'day will be more active tomorrow. ##vote: golbat On July 30 2012 04:57 Zorkmid wrote: We have the perfect excuse (it was indeed his birthday, his icon proved it) and on top of it we have a complaint for lack of activity followed by... lack of activity! I see no pro-town actions here.I've been Partying for the last two days, just had a birthday. I did post ample reasoning for my vote against Golbat, it's here. I made my vote post from a Blue Jays game, (we won 8-3 yea!) but basically nothing of note happened in the thread since that analysis post, so I felt his strange play best merited my vote. (How fucking wrong was I? And 6 others as well. Not a good start). I'll make another analysis post in a little while. How long until night? This one gets sectioned out by itself for all the magic it contains: + Show Spoiler [in which we find anger] + On July 30 2012 09:14 Zorkmid wrote: Since we've been told that: All that we really know is that we have a roleblocker(medic or otherwise), and that that roleblocker saved a kill. (I don't buy the idea that mafia didn't use a KP, especially not in a newbie game). From this I can infer that the same person viewed as most dangerous by mafia, was viewed as the most valuable townie by the roleblocker. I'm too tired to do any analysis. And frankly from the tone about my posting, I don't have much desire to. I'll answer some questions: It does seem to be a fairly arbitrary reason to vote for Golbat, I agree. I'll be honest that at the time of my vote, I hadn't been following the game very closely, and Golbat was just the player I thought most likely to be scum as of the time of (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15625737). When I said "town vibe" (refering to Mordanis' case) I just believed he was just trying to get a conversation going, and the reasons he gave for it being a weak case rang true to me. Just saw this question as I was working on my post: Because why risk killing a townie without a good reason. If we lynch MrMedic (as an example of a lurker) and he flips green, what was the point? About Golbat, my reasons for voting for him are re-iterated in this post. I feel a little funny defending my vote to lynch a guy to someone who voted the same guy. Why'd YOU vote for him? Oh right, he played scummy as fuck. Rantddendum: Not so much a fluff post, but I'm sick of being called out for inactivity on a fridaynight/saturday. I was busy, handle it. Same goes for this shit, stop it. You too Keir. I've heard it from several people already. I'm busy, SHUT THE (expunged) UP. On July 30 2012 09:14 Zorkmid wrote: Are we setting up Mordanis as town here in case of the eventual fall? What does Zorkmid know about Mordanis that we don't? Or am I just going to far with these questions and Zorkmid is once again stating the obvious about Mordanis, as any town member is capable of? I'm inclined to believe this statement isn't indicative of alignment, but I want to emphasize it because once again we have Zorkmid coming to the defense of Mordanis.It does seem to be a fairly arbitrary reason to vote for Golbat, I agree. I'll be honest that at the time of my vote, I hadn't been following the game very closely, and Golbat was just the player I thought most likely to be scum as of the time of (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15625737). When I said "town vibe" (refering to Mordanis' case) I just believed he was just trying to get a conversation going, and the reasons he gave for it being a weak case rang true to me. On July 30 2012 23:50 Zorkmid wrote: Zorkmid seems perfectly happy to get eyes on the semi-active (at the time) goodkarma, who indeed was talking of lurkers instead of active players and in general not showing his hand. He later remedies this and has since opened up quite a bit more and currently has a FOS/case on.. Zorkmid! After reading the last 50 or 60 posts in this thread, one of the things that jumped out at me was this: Let's have a look at GK! Goodkarma says that he was hesistant to "join the Mordanis lynch bandwagon" early on in the game, a statement in keeping with his lurker policy. At this point he voted for aRyuujin, while averring his suspicions of MrMedic and Promethelax for the same reasons. He then changed his vote from aRyuujin to Golbat, at that time it was the 5th vote on Golbat. GK explains why he didn't vote for shady " he has provided some meaningful discussion for the town, and hasn't jumped on every bandwaggon he sees...". I'm curious as to why after dropping his vote on aRyujin, he leapt to Golbat next, and not those he was originally suspicious of: Myself, Obvious and MrMedic. I know I voted for the same guy, but I'm just a bit surprised at your choice to vote for Golbat given your "call to action". GK, would you have been likely to change your vote a second time, had Golbat done a better job of defending himself? In general, Zorkmid seems to have a pretty good handle on the ROLES of the game but not on the RULES. Why would Zorkmid know/share this information if he's been establishing himself as a complete newbie the whole game? On August 01 2012 04:37 Zorkmid wrote: Later on the game they could say: "I am a medic On day 1, I saved player X." Might be done to save a mafioso under pressure, or to try and draw out any blues. Finally Zorkmid decides his stance on a no-lynch: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15691175 On August 02 2012 11:21 Zorkmid wrote: Scum know it's dangerous to lurk after the first day. We even had a bunch of conversation talking about policy lynching lurkers to get everyone to participate. This implies that Zorkmid is OKAY with having lurkers around: he was willing to go for a no-lynch until he had more information by way a process in which lurkers flourish.About Golbat, I did find his play scummy, especially his on again-off again Mordanis suspicions. I didn't vote for him to avoid a no-lynch, I actually have no problem whatsoever with a no-lynch that early in the game. I believe that now we're getting to the point in the game where a no-lynch hurts more than it did earlier in the game, Scum is getting closer to a win. Barring a lucky save, we're going to lose 2 more townies in the next two nights. That said, another mis-lynch is even worse. About why the possibility of no-lynching appealed to me early game, was that it would give us more time to make a better informed lynch, reducing the chance of a mis-lynch of a town lurker on day 2. We all what happened there. However, at this critical juncture in the game, I think it more likely that a lurker would flip red than a lurker earlier in the game. The scumslip that Ange777 picked up: On August 03 2012 00:17 Zorkmid wrote: Regarding the red/blue portion, it really was too emphasized. I'd give BOTD if there wasn't a whole pile of evidence against Zorkmid, but this post exists so it's on the pile now. We've already established he's been playing newbie from the early game, so how does he know what a blue/green would or wouldn't say? Especially if that thing was said to draw a reaction, which for much of this game has been a necessary tactic to use.What are you talking about? I honestly can't see how one person, let alone two people would see this as a slip. Let me walk you through what I assumed to be pretty straight forward logic. I believe that no smart green or blue would have made the post that Prom did....but he did, hence I thought that he may be red. I'm speculating on the meaning of Prom's actions based on what I would do, nothing more, nothing less. I think that most people followed this logic just fine, as it contributed to Prom's mis-lynch. I don't post as often as many players, but at least what I do post has some thought behind it. Zorkmid's dismissal: On August 03 2012 01:38 Zorkmid wrote: Take it for what you will.By what logic does my saying "as a green or blue" prove that I'm red? If someone said, "if I were a cop, I'd check player X" would that prove they're not cops? Why are you tunnelling me with NOTHING? And finally, in lieu of making a case of his own, Zorkmid has elected to go with the confirmed-town's suspicions and place his vote on GoodKarma through a summary of their thoughts and a vote from himself. + Show Spoiler [spoiler all the things] + On August 03 2012 02:39 Zorkmid wrote: @Goodkarma I'm looking at your post about voting records. On day 2, both Keirathi and Prom voted for you. I want to examine their cases on you, since they were made by 2 confirmed townies, as well as Shady's. From Prom: + Show Spoiler + I know it is obscenely long don't worry. It is easy to simplify. There are three points. 1 the use of 'a' instead of 'my' 2 I told him not to do something that is actually against the rules 3 my overuse of the word town and 4 OMGUSOMGUSOMGUS seriously that is the entirety of his case against me. The only point which might be valid is the third but it was a joke (one I now regret obviously) since saying I was pro-town without being pro-town was how Kier had caught me in XIX. I honestly thought the use of town beers and a town line instead of town circle made it really obvious it was a joke. I should have known there were secret Romanians on TL Mafia. So karma: out of those three points one is pants-on-head, one is semantics and one is me being dumb enough to joke around. Where is this case you don't think I can respond to. You have talked about my posting habits as a possible fourth point but I can't do anything about that. I'm here while I am home and awake and that will continue until town wins or I am lynched/nk'd He follows all of this up with a decent case against the same lurker he wanted to lynch d1. Cases against semi-lurkers are the easiest to make as mafia and tunneling one player gives you an easy out when you are wrong about anything else. This play continues to read as scum to me and, therefore, ## Vote: Karma At the time, it seemed like a big part of his case on you was him just trying to turn the focus back onto you, which can indicate scumminess, but he wasn't. He believed your tunnelling, and accusations on "semi-lurkers" reads as scum behavior. I agree with him to the extent that those are the easier targets. You yourself are one of the least active posters so far (in a game fraught with inactivity). From Keir: + Show Spoiler + It doesn't make any sense for a townie to claim that he has reads and not share them before the night ends. If you had died, you never would have gotten to post them, and you would have completely wasted your time and hurt the thread overall. Were you completely unafraid of dying? Also, you said you would post them before the night ended in your previous post - Hide Spoiler - On July 29 2012 07:57 goodkarma wrote: With the day passed, and our first flip, I plan on making a rather lengthy analysis thread on top suspects. I promise to have it before night ends, but don't expect to see it for several hours. . I don't particularly like that you promised something and didn't deliver. After reading through the thread again, I still feel the strongest about GK and Obvious. However, I admit I am still super wary of Promethelax, but I don't know if he deserves a lynch yet. My real concern though is that if he is town, Mafia has very, very little reason to NK him at this point even if he doesn't get lynched. In our last game together, the fact that he was so obviously "pro-town" and still alive by the 4th day was really suspicious. I'm pretty torn about what to do regarding him, because if he IS town, mislynching him would hurt us fairly badly. I will say that his cases in this game, compared to his cases in XIX where he was scum, are 100% better. To use his own terms from the end of XIX: "I liked my pants-on-head retarded connection theories." There is one similarity from XIX and this game that I will mention that I haven't before. In day 1 on XIX, he pushed a case on another townie really hard, and then after day 1 he virtually quit mentioning it for no reason. Or rather, mentioned it a few times but without any real conviction or pressure. It kind of feels like the same thing he's done to Shady in this game. I think that the most salient point that Keir brought up in his case against you was your not sharing your reads before the night was over. You responded that: If I were a town player, + Show Spoiler + (shut up Ange) From Keir's will: + Show Spoiler + Regarding goodkarma, this is what I had to say and I want it remembered in my absence: I find repeatedly pushing to have lurkers lynched is an anti-town trait. Our goal is to lynch scum. You claim it's impossible to make solid reads on day 1, but without people making reads, our ability to get successful lynches later in the game diminishes. Repeatedly trying to sheep us back onto lurkers and away from active cases is suspicious. Just another re-iteration of Prom's point that lurkers are easier to form cases about, and the risk of a scum slip is lower as a result. I agree. From Shady: Shady never FoS'ed or Voted for you, but he has talked about you. + Show Spoiler + Here's my read on GK: I'm not really sure why he would zero in on aRyuujin like that. Basically GK's rationale for lynching people is: Filter people who "appear active" --> Find those who are active but who are light on the content --> Start analyzing and prepping for lynch. So he filtered 3 people out who appear active: aRyu MrMedic Promethelax Then he says hmmm aRyu is contributing the least... and then seems to forget about the other two and keep digging on aRyu. Now aRyu obviously doesn't do town any favors by making his defense consist of haikus, but the shift by GK to just focusing on aRyu was a little off to me. His shift Golbat was well-timed and well-explained, so nothing can be really inferred from that. I'm not suspicious of GK right now, but I am a little puzzled by why he would drop MrMedic and Promethelax so quickly from his list of suspicious inactives, given that MrMedic hasn't voted and Promethelax seems to space his posts 14 hours apart and ignored the giant debate on Mordanis/Golbat entirely. This a third player who suspects that GK's play is essentially focused on the easy targets, as well as continuing to tunnel them after they have defended themselves. @GoodKarma Your posts are big on encouraging others to post cases and contribute, but your filter is lacking in both regards. Prove me wrong! ##Vote GoodKarma So I finish this with an ##UNVOTE and a ##VOTE Zorkmid | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
There is a case on Zork. I just feel like it is weaker than the case on Mordanis. Add that to the fact that mord is once again ad hearing to his Modus Operandi. On August 02 2012 15:04 Shady Sands wrote: He's set up a rhythm here: find a weakness that isn't directly related to being scummy (newbieness and past play), second an accusation, then sit back and watch the fireworks, and possibly set up a (mis)lynch for the next day if possible. All this smacks of a very aggressive scum play. That once again it seems like he is getting out of a lynch despite the mountain of evidence against him and without even addressing the cases against him. (which he has never done) and the fact that GK seems to be colluding to defend him, to me, without a doubt, mord is [r]scum[/r]. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On August 03 2012 11:32 Obvious.660 wrote: Almost clicked edit, shit. This is incorrect. 13 people total. 3 dead. 10 people = majority of 6. My apologies for the misinformation. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On August 03 2012 11:57 DarthPunk wrote: Besides the fact this makes Mord more suspicious (he has been under suspicion since day one and yet has survived two lynches) you both seem very coordinated in defending one another. You seem to be defending him on what you admit is assumptions and WIFOM. This is doing nothing but casting doubt on the very good cases against Mordanis which still have not been answered and are BEING IGNORED like the day one cases on him were. This is really weak and I don't see a Town motivation for you to use WIFOM and assumptions to cast doubt on strong cases that have not been answered once again. So what you're saying here, in other words, is: "I really like my case and anyone who doesn't agree with me is therefore against me. It's time I throw you under a bus..." I NEVER said that Mords's actions weren't suspicious, or that his play couldn't fit the play of a scum. However, I just don't see this compelling, damning evidence you seem to that shows that Mord is guilty. And as best I can see, the only way to truly "answer a case" is to lynch the guy. Mord is suspicious, but I feel that he is not the best candidate. And we don't have the luxury of another mislynch. In my opinion aRyuujin and Zork are better candidates right now. I have already conceded there might be some WIFOM in my Mord argument, so I can't see why you take such an aggressive stance. Especially since town's role is to get to the truth, not to persecute someone until lynch. My arguement brings more to the table to consider in the Mord case, and more information is always better than less. That being said: I don't expect that mafia in a noobie game are going to make really sophisticated plays, like trying to bus each other, and that's why I still feel my new analysis on Mord. is relevant. Sorry if you can't see it that way. So what's your next point?: On August 03 2012 12:09 DarthPunk wrote: To add to my previous case. So After Mord has roughly 4 votes you concoct a gambit to make everyone vote for who shady votes for regardless of what they want. Then you heavily imply that he should change his vote on mord. It was 3 votes by the way. And considering I already said that 6/7 town are needed to get majority vote this round to have any shot at lynching a scum, why is it you think mafia would feel any need whatsoever to try to sway the vote? If you haven't noticed, everyone is heavily divided in their lynch choices atm. If he is really mafia, your chances of lynching Mord are very low. I proposed to have Shady as the leader to unite all town together so that majority is easier to secure. With mafia so close to winning this game, telling town to unite under one (confirmed town) leader would be really scary for them. Your "gambit"-arguement is pretty absurd. On August 03 2012 12:03 DarthPunk wrote: OK What the Fuck? So if we mislynch we have no information whatsoever because everyone just votes for one person regardless of their read. This is Fucking Retarded. This is trying to limit discussion 16 hours out from vote. By no means am I trying to limit discussion. By all means, everyone shoud present their arguements, but Shady should make the final call. That's the only way I see town getting the majority they need to lynch a scum, especially with individuals like yourself with multiple scum reads but the determination to only try your own special candidate. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
On August 03 2012 12:57 DarthPunk wrote: on zorkmid There is a case on Zork. I just feel like it is weaker than the case on Mordanis. Add that to the fact that mord is once again ad hearing to his Modus Operandi. That once again it seems like he is getting out of a lynch despite the mountain of evidence against him and without even addressing the cases against him. (which he has never done) and the fact that GK seems to be colluding to defend him, to me, without a doubt, mord is [r]scum[/r]. There is a case on Zorkmid... At least we can agree with me on that. Your out-of-nowhere conspiracy theory, though, to use Prox's words, is "Pants-on-Head Retarded." I give the town a winning strategy: Get behind a (confirmed town!) leader so we can come to a consensus and lynch a scum. This is something that no intelligent scum would do when without leadership all they need to do to win right now is sit in one spot and lurk around. Your strategy, on the other hand, seems to be: Mord. way, or the highway + Show Spoiler + (clever, huh?  )#FoS DarthPunk All I hope is that Shady can rally everyone behind a candidate in time. And if he doesn't contribute any new discussion soon, I will be changing my vote to Mord to coincide with his. Even though I don't feel he's the strongest scum candidate, he definitely has done some scummy things, and to catch a scum at this time town needs to unite together. I recommend everyone to follow Shady's vote, as he's the only person right now town can trust. You may call it sheeping, but what's even worse is town sticks with their own scum reads on 2+ people, mafia lols, and no scum get lynched. TL;DR: United we stand. Divided we fall... | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
On August 03 2012 14:21 goodkarma wrote:So what you're saying here, in other words, is: "I really like my case and anyone who doesn't agree with me is therefore against me. It's time I throw you under a bus..." No. That is not what I am saying. I am saying that your reasoning behind defending Mord was, by your own admission, assumption and WIFOM. None of the cases on Mord have actually been answered. And your reasoning in your defense of him was essentially that he was too suspicious. I don't think is need to explain to you how null that argument is. On August 03 2012 14:21 goodkarma wrote: I NEVER said that Mords's actions weren't suspicious, or that his play couldn't fit the play of a scum. However, I just don't see this compelling, damning evidence you seem to that shows that Mord is guilty. And as best I can see, the only way to truly "answer a case" is to lynch the guy. Mord is suspicious, but I feel that he is not the best candidate. And we don't have the luxury of another mislynch. No, but you have never said anything specific to the case against Mord beside defending him twice immediately after he accumulated more than 1 vote. Otherwise you have ignored him. Completely. Despite the large amount of discussion around him. I am not going to bother arguing with you on the evidence against Mord as you seem to be dead set on defending him. There are several cases against him. none of them have been answered. Read them. On August 03 2012 14:21 goodkarma wrote: I have already conceded there might be some WIFOM in my Mord argument, so I can't see why you take such an aggressive stance. Especially since town's role is to get to the truth, not to persecute someone until lynch. My arguement brings more to the table to consider in the Mord case, and more information is always better than less. You have added no new information but WIFOM and speculation. your only posts on mord have been defending him since day 1 without any reasoning behind the defense, apart from that there are better candidates right now. Yet instead of posting cases on those you consider to have better cases you have only talked policy lynching lurkers. Your cases have continued to be on lurkers, and any posts not on lynching lurkers was defending mordanis really aggressively. On August 03 2012 14:21 goodkarma wrote: That being said: I don't expect that mafia in a noobie game are going to make really sophisticated plays, like trying to bus each other, and that's why I still feel my new analysis on Mord. is relevant. Sorry if you can't see it that way. Since when was WIFOM and speculation 'analysis'? You yourself admit that mord seems scummy and could be scummy yet you are defending him and quite vigorously without addressing the cases against him at all or saying anything but: He seems scummy and could be scum but he is too suspicious. and then proceed to chainsaw defend him. TLDR You have Ignored Mordanis entirely unless defending him. your entire defense consists of WIFOM and Speculation. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
##UNVOTE ##VOTE Mordanis | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On August 02 2012 10:49 DarthPunk wrote: Hey guys. Just woke up and am going to dive into some Mafia! First of all I am all but convinced that Shady Sands is Mason. The slip is there, and he would have had to fabricate that day 1 with almost nothing to go off. So 99% certain that SS is green. I am going to go back through each of Keirathi and SS filters and see if they were onto anything. I do know however, that both have been suspicious of Obvious. I already had my eye on him and I am going to look through his filter very closely. @goodkarma, There is a post in my filter that addresses my position on Mordanis. At the point I posted that many people had stated they had small town reads on him and no one was contributing or commenting on my case against him. Whilst I did (and still do) have a scum read on mordanis the fact that my case was generating zero discussion and a fear that I was victim of confirmation bias. I felt that I was being unproductive by focusing on him too much. That being said, I have been following mordanis closely and there continue to be unresolved questions around him. Off the Top of my head I will state a few things that are wrong with mordanis. Day one he lead 3 cases against 3 now confirmed townies. He pursued them very aggresively but none of his cases had much merit. The first one he admitted to being dishonest with (didn't really believe there was a case on keir) and was based purely on WIFOM. + Show Spoiler + On July 28 2012 10:46 DarthPunk wrote: Good morning Everyone. First up some thoughts. Golbat I spent the majority of last night reading their filters trying to make sense of it. And it was seriously a mess. From the OMGUS accusations onward. Golbat flip-flops like it is going out of style. And Mordanis still uses a large amount of WIFOM to justify his arguments which just make it more difficult to understand what he is actually saying. One of mordanis' key arguments (claimed scumslip) against golbat was this While it is true that this may be used to hop on whatever bandwagon he wants without fear of reprisal. in the context of the conversation and a simple search through his filter says otherwise. Go read the thread. He was THE FIRST to cast suspicion onto Mord. Mordanis case is built upon the fact that he had insurance to jump on any bandwagon he wanted without fear of reprisal and then jumps on a bandwagon on him. Golbat almost immediately casts suspicion onto Mordanis, then states he may already have an idea of who may be scum. Yep, it seems like he was just backing up his previous claim of mordanis' scumminess. Mordanis Mordanis goes from pushing golbats case and 'scumslip' heavily, to voting shady in the space of a post. We would assume that this sudden change of heart would come with some clear and strong arguements right? Wrong Now this is the post where he flips from golbat onto shady. The first half of his post is meaningless and doesn't actually provide any information or a good reason to flip from someone he had been pursuing whom he believed had scumslipped. Shady could have read Mafia games elsewhere, not just TL. So the whole lie scenario is a stretch and to me doesn't mean anything. He then goes on to speculate on a reason town would lie. This is also meaningless and fails to add anything to the Shady case. the only part of Mordanis' post which gives any clue whatsoever as to why he flipped from his scum read to shady. He meta reads. But not golbats previous game. Obvious.660's. No mention of the strong arguments brought forward about shady by prom and subsequently ange777, no analysis of shady that actually adds anything. Next post after voting shady. what does he decide to do he makes another list in a similar vein as above He talks a big game. Lied and drew heat on himself so we could start scumhunting. I don't buy it. He is not following through. He is not contributing anything of substance. He is flipflopping whilst accusing others of the same. He is not doing the scumhunting he so desperately wanted to start. The case on golbat was a reaction to him casting a vote on mordanis, and he pushed that case throughout the majority of day. But then he jumped on shady sands with an explanation for leaving his previous 'Best scum read' as reading Obvious' filter from the previous game. So he jumped onto another case after leading a mislynch hard throughout day one. contributed very little to it. Tried to manufacture a scenario in which Shady 'lied' and spent several posts muddling the conversation with his case about shady's day 1 lynch scenario, that I personally felt was retarded. So after I pressure him on jumping the ship he built and keirathi somewhat defends shady, he jumps back on to the mislynch he created. The net effect of this play? leads a mislynch whilst sufficiently distancing himself from it through his SS tangent. He then accuses Ange777 of doing something extremely similar. After day 1 his posting whilst improving in clarity and making cases based on something other than WIFOM, have dramatically altered in style and frequency, yet still contain the internal contradictions I first took issue with. His case on prom + Show Spoiler + On July 31 2012 19:10 Mordanis wrote: I'm really confused by Promethelax's play. He just admonished me for fluff posts. His entire first page of his filter is fluff. He comments on my opening case being really bad, regardless of my alignment. Look at his first FOS: + Show Spoiler + On July 27 2012 18:55 Promethelax wrote: I'd like to bring some attention to Zorkmid: He starts with policy talk, as we all did. Follows it up with an immediate about face when he learns about the no-lynch option He leaves hoping for more from others and after that comes back with a question and than dissapears That was over ten hours ago, I don't get it. Where did you go Zork? I don't like his play so far and, thus, a FoS is declared. On July 27 2012 07:18 Promethelax wrote: Okay Ghost, will do. On July 27 2012 07:26 Promethelax wrote: You win for my favourite response ever. If you are ever in my neck of the woods hit me up and I'll buy you a drink just for that. On July 27 2012 07:37 Promethelax wrote: Unrelated to the discussion so far after reading Shady Sands' Op here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355847 I expect awesome posts from him/her. Slim Shady: you've got some awesome to live up to. Since we haven't been productive so far I would like us to turn our attention to pressure: I for one am concerned that MrMedic may not be a medic and is lying about his role in his name. Okay, what I'm actually concerned about is that all he posted is that he is here. I want more. On July 27 2012 07:38 Promethelax wrote: EBWOP: I'm also concerned that his post was edited. Watch yourself my man or Ghost will smite you with his mighty powers. On July 27 2012 08:27 Promethelax wrote: My girlfriend got home so I don't have time to read one last time before going to work. I'll see you in 10-12 hours. Good luck town. On July 27 2012 21:49 Promethelax wrote: Alright, I'll look into their filters and see if anything is popping there. What I found, and still find weird about shady is this: + Show Spoiler + On July 27 2012 08:38 Shady Sands wrote: I'm not sure how Keir telling RB not to use their powers equals Keir roleclaiming as RB. Of course Day 1 roleclaiming is suspicious but this post doesn't fit the bill. But if a clear consensus emerges that he's suspicious, I'd volunteer myself to watch his posting behavior. That said, I do think Day 1 scumhunting could work--but only after everyone (or nearly everyone) has posted. I'm going to go down the list of posters now and do a quick tally. Ange777 - No posts yet Keirathi - Six posts Promethelax - More than 10 posts alan133 - 1 "GLHF" post Mordanis - Three posts Obvious.660 - 2 posts MrMedic - 1 post, edited aRyuujin - 2 posts, both haiku DarthPunk - No posts yet goodkarma - No posts yet Golbat - No posts yet Shady Sands - 2 posts so far Zorkmid - 5 posts Players in order of activity: Promethelax Keirathi Zorkmid Mordanis Obvious.660 aRyuujin Shady Sands alan133 MrMedic -- Lurkers -- Ange777 Darthpunk goodkarma Golbat Once the remaining few lurkers have posted, then we can start scumhunting. The next task is to read through past mafia games and find those with successful Day 1 scumhunts--and see what common lessons can be drawn from them. I'm going to compile a list of those right now. Where he puts a lot of bull shit into the thread and nothing real. He literally used post counts to increase the size of his filter. the other thing in here I want to focus on is his lets wait attitude. for example: from the above post and others He also says that both of these things push town away from hunting for scum, attempting to prevent scum hunting is a huge scum trait. On top of this he misrepresents the facts in newbie 21 (I think) Hopeless1der was lynched d1 as scum so scum hunting has shown to be effective recently. He also replys to my advice by saying scum will blue snipe, they will kill players who won't vote for the right mislynch or who are tunneling scum. There are a million reasons for scum to shoot a bad town player so his first point is wrong and his second point again pushes us away from scum hunting since he insists that vigi shots are our most powerful tool. No they aren't. We are the most powerful town asset and scum hunting is the most powerful town tool. His next post tells us to wait for more people to post until we make cases and the one after that is a case... Sands tells us that we should still hold off even though this guy is the best lynch target. He also tells us that he will likely flip green based on (I assume) the statistics which seems, to me, to be a way to distance himself from a Mord town flip. What originally felt scummy to me in Sands' filter was this post where he says: Re-read that. Do yourself a favour and beat your face against a hard surface. He think that Mord will flip green unless he replys in the way that he (Sands) expects him to in which case he is red...alrighty than. I also hate this post: the bolded part at the end is essentially saying that we should lynch Golbat and if he is green lynch Mord. That seems to be setting us up for two mislynches and, if Sands ever flips red these two are pretty much confirmed town. So based on Sands' play I think that he is scum. He has earned my FoS and as of this moment he would be my vote if nothing changed between now and lynch. I'll be keeping my eye on him because, as he said, just replace Mord with Sands and you see the truth of the statement. He has to keep going and, as Keir well knows, loud scum are easy to find. The other thing that confuses me is the petulance with which Promethelax is trying to become the "town mayor". Here are a few examples: + Show Spoiler + On July 31 2012 17:33 Promethelax wrote: If you have set up questions ask the host otherwise you are just wasting thread space and padding your filter while adding nothing to the thread. On July 30 2012 18:14 Promethelax wrote: Sorry I'm on my way to bed and I figured I would quickly reply to Karma before falling asleep. I am sure I'll miss some points but the basic one of why is my play so different now than it was is that I work Tuesday-Saturday. I play better on my days off. As to the town leader thing: I just spent like ten minutes looking for the quote but couldn't find it. I think it was Marv who said (and I'm paraphrasing) "town needs two things, a good annalist and a good leader; they don't have to be the same person they just both have to exist" I'm not saying I should be a town leader or a town analyst, I am saying that town is following my analysis and that I am taking things said by players whom I greatly respect and trying to forge my town play around that. If the two things that town needs are a good leader and someone with good analysis I will try to provide both. I think you and I don't see eye to eye on what a town leader is. I'm not saying we should elect a mayor, I'm saying having someone who is clearly pro-town trying to create a pro-town environment is a necessity for town. By town leader I mean someone who is creating an environment where town flourishes even if the person creating that environment has their head up their ass on every single one of their reads. Essentially, from what I've read about XIX Promethelax kind of mauled town by getting into the "town circle", and controlling the game from there. I don't think a smart person could try the same strategy against people its already been used on and expect to win again. For that reason, Promethelax's inconsistent/illogical/ seems to be a mild indicator of scumminess. Also, being relatively inactive during one day reduces the amount of stuff any player needs to defend himself later. Edit before having to double post (EBHTDP) I am still confused by large parts of his play. For instance the part about lynching semi-lurkers seems sort of like what he's doing. GK hasn't posted nearly as many times as Prom himself, myself, Keir, Ange, Obvious, or Shady. 6 players of 12 left have 3 or more pages in their filter, the other 6 have 2. GK has spent a lot of his time defending himself, so if you take that away he's pretty lurky. But the caffeine is wearing off now, see y'all in the morning. Still, I like the content he generated with that post on GK, so I'll be watching Prom closely. I seriously need to pass out now though :/ He states many reasons why he thinks prom is scummy, yet the conclusion of the post doesn't really say anything and is incredibly wishy-washy. His next post + Show Spoiler + On August 01 2012 03:54 Mordanis wrote: My opinion on whom to lynch will be heavily influenced by what Prom and SS post. I will be able to vote (don't have anything to take me away) and if neither post in like 20 minutes, I'll just go ahead without their posts. He doesn't want to commit to anyone without having as much information as possible. To me this is very scummy. + Show Spoiler + On August 01 2012 04:50 Mordanis wrote: TT Was hoping I wouldn't have to do this, but here goes. I do not understand Promethelax's play. It has been at times hypocritical, illogical, and bad. I see very little scum motivation for the way he's been playing, assuming he's a competent player. I don't see any town motivation either, so I would prefer to wait to see if he continues to play the way he has. I haven't been able to look into GK's play much, and Promethelax's case on him isn't very strong, so I can't in good conscience vote for him unless I see another good case on him. Shady is in a similar position to Prom where he's had lurky play one day and weird play the other. Still, I can't seem to pin his play in this cycle as scummy. I don't know why people are suspicious of Zork. In other words, we have kind of a lousy set of cases today, for which I hold myself partly responsible. All in all though, I feel that Promethelax is the best target. His play could be described as a way to disrupt the scum-hunt, to get into a position of town-trust, to buddy up with players to make them feel bad for voting for him. I actually feel bad voting for him at this point, but he is my strongest read. ##Vote: Promethelax The half of the post in which he actually votes for someone Is actually spent being wishy-washy and distancing himself from a mis-lynch. He doesn't give any good reasons for jumping on the promethelax vote at the last minute. Doesn't state why he feels like it is a bad choice. doesn't really say anything. His play from the Golbat lynch onwards has been like night and day, there is a Dramatic shift in style and he is spending a lot of time trying to lay low, make wishy-washy conclusions mitigate damage etc. I have always found Mordanis to be suspicious. I continue to find him suspicious. I have watched him and will continue to watch him. So your claim to have been watching me the entire time. You jumped on my bandwagon before the cycle I was even lynched. Sweet. And yet you completely ignored me for the entirety of D2 while pushing your case on Prom. A case which was really weak. Why would you ignore someone you thought was scum for an entire 2 cycles (N2 also). Strange. I have no fucking clue what you mean about the case about my play D1. You say I lead the lynch hard and call that scummy but also call my suspicion of SS and my "lack of contribution" scummy. WTF does this mean. Then you call me retarded. Right. My case on Shady and what was apparently a blatant lie: Somehow not tunneling one player is scummy? Thinking about what things mean rather than being biased is scummy? I think changing opinions on who is the scummiest D1 is pretty aligned with town; the amount of information available to town changes very quickly that early in the game, whereas for scum they don't get much more than they started with. And how I distanced myself from the case when I wrote this + Show Spoiler + On July 29 2012 04:39 Mordanis wrote: Right now, I'm just going to post what my reads are to this point, regarding what has been posted in the last several hours. Shady: This post: + Show Spoiler + On July 28 2012 22:23 Shady Sands wrote: Ah, ok. I just found it a little wierd that you wouldn't mention at all the huge debate surrounding golbat or mordanis, instead only talking about aRyujin's haikus and my one-liner post. I'm going to write a defense post now--hope it addresses your concerns (and the concerns of anyone else who shares your line of thinking.) On July 29 2012 03:23 Shady Sands wrote: This was part of a discussion on whether or not to lynch Mordanis and whether or not to lynch Golbat. From my POV, it looked unlikely that scum would be bussing their own members on Day 1, given that Day 1 lynch rates tended to mislynches anyhow. Therefore, the first half of the statement--that if Mord flips red, Golbat (his main accuser) should be green/blue. I did not state this in the thread because I thought this was apparent. The second half of the statement--that if Mord flips green/blue, Golbat should be red--is because Golbat was, as Mord noted, the first person to start hinting at lynching Mord (before other people had even made up their minds about it) and also made that extremely suspicious "end all discussion, vote Mord" post. This smelled to me like either extremely bad town play (which I, as a general rule, try not to believe in--I think that most players will behave fairly intelligently) or a clear attempt by a red to push for a mislynch. So if Mord was innocent, then the likeliest red would be Golbat. Then, after writing that, I started reading through Golbat's posts themselves, and they suggested an added layer of guilt--especially his flip-flopping and multiple backtracking to defend himself. Then Golbat tried defending himself some more, and looked even more scummy, etc. etc. Golbat: His latest post: + Show Spoiler + On July 28 2012 13:46 Golbat wrote: I'll probably be able to read the thread before I have to go to work tomorrow morning, but in case I don't get that chance, ##Vote aRyujin This is why I am voting for him: His haiku style makes it easy for him to fill up his posts with a shit load of waffle and some nearly baseless accusations and almost get away with it. I hope in between now and deadline the eye of suspicion takes a long, hard look at him, because his confusing waffle is nothing short of a full-on impediment to real discussion. I would also consider voting for Shady Sands, depending on the consensus of the town for these reasons : His direct swap from "I agree with golbat, let's lynch Mord" after Mord drew such attention to himself to "Let's lynch Golbat and then Mord, because one of them HAS to be scum" after people started questioning me is something that I don't think anybody else agreed with. The way he seemed so concrete about who we should lynch for multiple days is really suspicious. We should be picking lynches on a day by day basis as more discussion takes place, not queue up our votes for several days straight. Right now these two seem to me to be the most scummy. Of course, if someone else decides to act scummy as all get out, i'd be happy to vote for them as well, but at the moment these two seem the most suspicious. Hopefully i'll be able to get back and read/contribute more in the morning, as i'll be at work when the deadline hits and won't be home for three or four hours after that. For now, I'll be going to vote for Golbat, but I want to make it clear that I think that a no-lynch at this point would be disastrous, so I would change to keep this from happening. ##Vote: Golbat Can we get another vote count? Plz! DP again misreads my post on Prom. I said I was confused by his play, I did not say it was scummy. DP then goes on to say that my not wanting to vote without information is scummy. Why? Scum know the flip, and with their handy-dandy knowledge of who's who its a lot easier to understand peoples' play. Who is killed doesn't matter as much to scum either because as long as it furthers their goal of remaining undetected, they are happy with the result. They keep their kp. Town, on the other hand, gets only one vote for one lynch per day. With very limited information, trying to get information before voting seems rather more suited towards town play than scum. Again DP completely ignores what he just posted on me to build his nonsensical case on me. The previous thing that he called me out for being wishy-washy is my reason for thinking the lynch on Prom was a bad choice. Prom's play was confusing, but it didn't help scum really. He called me out for thinking it was a weak case but ignores my explanation for why and then calls me out for not explaining why I thought it was a weak case. Wow, that logic seemed pretty circular. Long story short, the few things in this case that might seem weird have no justification for why they are scummy, and the rest is DP citing one short period of time and calling me out for doing one thing and the opposite of that thing. DP is either too busy eating glue to think, too biased to think critically, or scum. A final note to DP: I really don't hate you. But your play has been incredibly obnoxious (Really, you've been focused only on me except for a brief interlude pushing a case on Prom) to me and your refusal to even clarify your argument and your ignoring of what I have posted in defence and calling it weak without explaining is at best rude, at worst rude and incredibly arrogant. Hopefully you'll stop acting to this way, and if not then I guess I'll just have to avoid you, because I don't like people who are mean for the sake of being mean. Please read the part in the OP where it says "This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing." Edit before having to double post: On August 03 2012 15:10 Obvious.660 wrote: I'm willing to get behind the Mordanis vote (Shady Sands' vote candidate) to secure a lynch, as I'm hoping he's not going to change it at this point. Probably should switch now, tomorrow is 12 hours on my feet in the heat and I'm out the door as soon as I wake up and get ready. I'll try to check in to see what's up in 8 hours or so but honestly, probably won't get the chance until ~24 hours from now. Good luck, friends. ##UNVOTE ##VOTE Mordanis So you're jumping on a bandwagon and leaving, along with Aryuu, and hoping that I'm going to be lynched over anyone else. This is seriously the dumbest vote I've ever seen. Seriously, does everyone just hate me with a passion? | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
On August 03 2012 14:50 goodkarma wrote: There is a case on Zorkmid... At least we can agree with me on that. Your out-of-nowhere conspiracy theory, though, to use Prox's words, is "Pants-on-Head Retarded." I give the town a winning strategy: Get behind a (confirmed town!) leader so we can come to a consensus and lynch a scum. This is something that no intelligent scum would do when without leadership all they need to do to win right now is sit in one spot and lurk around. Your strategy, on the other hand, seems to be: Mord. way, or the highway + Show Spoiler + (clever, huh? )#FoS DarthPunk All I hope is that Shady can rally everyone behind a candidate in time. And if he doesn't contribute any new discussion soon, I will be changing my vote to Mord to coincide with his. Even though I don't feel he's the strongest scum candidate, he definitely has done some scummy things, and to catch a scum at this time town needs to unite together. I recommend everyone to follow Shady's vote, as he's the only person right now town can trust. You may call it sheeping, but what's even worse is town sticks with their own scum reads on 2+ people, mafia lols, and no scum get lynched. TL;DR: United we stand. Divided we fall... Let me Illustrate why I disagree with your 'plan' of everyone vote who shady votes. I feel that this is MORE LIKELY to lead to a mislynch. You are taking away the power of our votes. you a reducing the robustness of the town by removing their tools (read their Vote) to find scum. It is a lot easier for scum if they know the outcome of a vote by reading one players position. It is a lot easier for scum to manipulate the vote of one player. A robust discussion with the ability to vote for your strongest read is to my mind a lot more valuable than a plan for the entire town to sheep one player. This sort of plan reeks of anti town play. On August 03 2012 14:50 goodkarma wrote: I give the town a winning strategy: Get behind a (confirmed town!) leader so we can come to a consensus and lynch a scum. This is something that no intelligent scum would do when without leadership all they need to do to win right now is sit in one spot and lurk around. It is great to have a confirmed town. and certainly you should give weight to his opinions. But I hardly call your plan a 'town winning strategy' blindly sheeping Shady Sands will reduce discussion because what point is there in making cases if we just blindly sheep one player? The main arguement you seem to be making is that because the town is divided [b]Right now[/b] we need to sheep shady. None of us are stupid. i have stated before and have stated again. If it comes down to a situation in which i am required to alter my vote in order to prevent a no lynch I will do that. So will everyone else here. The rest of your case against me seems to be OMGUS. I am pursuing Mord as he is by far my strongest read. The cases against him have not been answered and his quietly sitting behind the zorkmid case that ange777 made and "watching the fireworks" as shady put it. On August 03 2012 14:50 goodkarma wrote: Your strategy, on the other hand, seems to be: Mord. way, or the highway + Show Spoiler + (clever, huh? )Do you want me to cast suspicion on the entire town? It seems you have a vested interest in me discontinuing my case against mord. As I have said before I will alter my vote to prevent a no lynch or if i feel another case is stronger than the case on mord. I will not however, apologise for going after my strongest scum read and continuing to do so when he has not contributed an adequate defense. If you want to bring any real cases against me or anyone else I will be happy to read them and respond. That would be preferable to your posting today which has contained a chainsaw defense of mordanis, OMGUS, WIFOM and your 'town saving' let's sheep shady sands initiative. | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
On August 03 2012 15:23 Mordanis wrote: A final note to DP: I really don't hate you. But your play has been incredibly obnoxious (Really, you've been focused only on me except for a brief interlude pushing a case on Prom) to me and your refusal to even clarify your argument and your ignoring of what I have posted in defence and calling it weak without explaining is at best rude, at worst rude and incredibly arrogant. Hopefully you'll stop acting to this way, and if not then I guess I'll just have to avoid you, because I don't like people who are mean for the sake of being mean. Please read the part in the OP where it says "This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing." Before I address your post I wanted to respond to this, because I feel really bad about it. To Mord and anyone else that may be offended by my posting I apologise. To me this is a game and when I attack peoples posts I am just attacking their posts in the game, not them personally. I don't hate anyone here at all. Far from it. I am trying my best to play the game. Follow my reads etc. I really do not want to upset or offend anyone. And I especially do not want to make the game so unfun for people that they wish to stop playing. If whilst I pursue scum and make cases and counter cases etc. I come across that way, I once again apologise. Perhaps this is not the game for me. I will continue playing this game out. I am a friendly guy in real life but if this is a consistent feeling amongst all the players here then I do not like making others feel bad and therefore this will probably be my last game. Nonetheless. I am going to read your post and respond. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
I read Mord.'s terrible Keir arguement during the opening of the game, and I have seen his wishy-washy, noncommital arguements against people such as Prox. I agree with the cases brought against him. His actions certainly have made him look scummy, but I feel they are being taken into consideration without considering if he could play the same way as town. Look at where "scum reads" have gotten us days one and two. Golbat and Prox., in my opinion, played town terribly. But just as much as it was their responsibility to prove their innocence, it was ours to determine if their motivations could fit those of a townie playing badly. While I agree that Mord. could very well be scum, from what I've seen he could also be a town that isn't playing very well. Since that perspective hasn't been contributed by others, that is what I've brought to the "Mord. case." And as for my statistics: feel free to call it speculation, but if I'm right there are scum that have also contributed to the case against him and want him lynched. As for pursuing lurky-type persons? There are about three "lurkers," all of which have acted suspiciously (aRyuujin, Zork, JingleHell), and three mafia. There is no reason to assume that all mafia this game couldn't be "lurkers." Feel free to call me biased toward only lurkers, but remember I've also made a case against Prox who definitely wasn't a lurker in day 2. On the other hand, you are definitely biased toward only finding "loud scum." And there's no guarantee scum in the "loud" category even exist this game. The bottom line: scum is scum, no matter where they come from. My strongest reads happen to come from the "lurker" category right now. I have made what I feel to be a strong case against aRyuujin, and have added to the case against Zork. I encourage you to read what I've written on them, and tell me exactly why it is my case is weaker than your Mord. case. And I am 100% certain that aRyuujin, specifically, will not contribute any more than he already has. Everything about his play screams scum to me, perhaps just as much as everything about Mord. seems to scream scum to you. And unlike everyone else here, no further evidence is going to come up to convince others that hasn't shown already since he has become methodical with his "rehash arguement, make FoS, later make vote" routine. I feel justified in pushing my case for his lynch today, because I know that if he is scum (and I'm quite sure he is), and it gets to LYLO he will get a free pass thanks to people like you, and will be able to passively win the game. | ||
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On August 03 2012 15:10 Obvious.660 wrote: I'm willing to get behind the Mordanis vote (Shady Sands' vote candidate) to secure a lynch, as I'm hoping he's not going to change it at this point. Probably should switch now, tomorrow is 12 hours on my feet in the heat and I'm out the door as soon as I wake up and get ready. I'll try to check in to see what's up in 8 hours or so but honestly, probably won't get the chance until ~24 hours from now. Good luck, friends. ##UNVOTE ##VOTE Mordanis Okay. Here it is. I can't in good conscience trust Shady Sands implicitly. He's been wrong about 1-Golbat. 2-Promethelax and quite possibly he's now wrong about 3-Mordanis (maybe 4th will be Obvious?). We also can't trust GoodKarma at his word for voting with Shady Sands. If we could have, he would have switched already. So, fuck it. I'm going back on this vote I just posted and putting it to Zorkmid. I didn't spend 2 hours on my post only to piss it away because some clown told me otherwise. I broke my own rule. WE VOTE FOR SCUM HERE. I've got to put my vote back on Zorkmid or I won't sleep tonight. ##UNVOTE ##VOTE Zorkmid | ||
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
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ObviousOne
United States3704 Posts
On August 03 2012 16:23 Ange777 wrote: Ok, I just got up and quickly skimmed through and I really can't believe that people are not voting for Zork .... I can only urge you to go back and read my case against him and his defense against it! I don't trust you, either. | ||
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
You have suspicions against me? Fire away. | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
On August 03 2012 15:50 DarthPunk wrote: Before I address your post I wanted to respond to this, because I feel really bad about it. To Mord and anyone else that may be offended by my posting I apologise. To me this is a game and when I attack peoples posts I am just attacking their posts in the game, not them personally. I don't hate anyone here at all. Far from it. I am trying my best to play the game. Follow my reads etc. I really do not want to upset or offend anyone. And I especially do not want to make the game so unfun for people that they wish to stop playing. If whilst I pursue scum and make cases and counter cases etc. I come across that way, I once again apologise. Perhaps this is not the game for me. I will continue playing this game out. I am a friendly guy in real life but if this is a consistent feeling amongst all the players here then I do not like making others feel bad and therefore this will probably be my last game. Nonetheless. I am going to read your post and respond. It's not that you're using impolite language or arguing purely ad hominem, its just that you're tunneling me in what seems to be a very biased fashion. You refuse to clarify arguments because you're so convinced of them, but won't even respond to defense other than saying it wasn't satisfactory. It's one thing to hunt for scum, another to just push a case regardless of what the person you've been working on posts or does. Really, you tunneled me D1 and N1, and you're back at it harder N2, and you won't even dignify my attempts to absolve myself with thought. Had you actually gone through the trouble of arguing a case, rather than posting a case and then ignoring everything I've posted, I'd be totally cool with it. You don't have to quit playing, in fact I'd say you should play much more, but it sucks to be tunneled and ignored for basically the entire game. If you are able to make argue case that is so convincing I can't dig my way out of it, I'll be happy to die a good townie death (our two previous townies' lynchings have sort of been duds, no defense, not posting good cases but instead just sort of disagreeing on principle) and see if I can't nail some scum in my dying hours. I am not afraid of dying, I am afraid of dying for no reason. Anyways, I'm done defending myself, because at this point compiling analyses is infinitely preferable to defending myself ad nauseam, regardless of whether I am lynched or not. The scum hunt must never be stopped! I'll be back ~4 hours before the deadline, and I'll start reading through at that point. See you all in the morning! | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
On August 03 2012 15:23 Mordanis wrote: So your claim to have been watching me the entire time. You jumped on my bandwagon before the cycle I was even lynched. Sweet. And yet you completely ignored me for the entirety of D2 while pushing your case on Prom. A case which was really weak. Why would you ignore someone you thought was scum for an entire 2 cycles (N2 also). Strange. Although this doesn't address the cases against you I will respond. I posted about you several times during day 2. They are contained within the case you quoted. I don't like to post much during night cycles as all it does is give mafia additional information upon which they can make a night kill. We can't lynch at night so I don't see the point in showing your hand. On August 03 2012 15:23 Mordanis wrote: I have no fucking clue what you mean about the case about my play D1. You say I lead the lynch hard and call that scummy but also call my suspicion of SS and my "lack of contribution" scummy. WTF does this mean. Then you call me retarded. Right. This has all been stated previously. But you seem to want me to state it all gain so here goes. The thing scummy with your day one play is that you lead the mislynch of Golbat for pretty much the entire day. After the bandwagon had started rolling you said that you read obvious' filter from the previous game and that convinced you enough that Golbat was townie that you unvoted him. You then second the position of others and voted Shady Sands without basing it on reasoning or adding anything to the case. The reason I believe this is scummy You lead a mislynch then once the ball was rolling you switched voted onto someone elses case. I believe you did that in order to distance you self from the mislynch and to set up a potential mis-lynch day 2. After receiving pressure from this turn of events from myself and Keirathi. you revert to your original position on Golbat. You were still one of the last to vote for golbat, despite leading his mislynch and amidst the confusion i believe you achieved your goal. To lead a mislynch on golbat whilst attempting to distance yourself from it, and potentially set up a mislynch on shady sands for the following cycle. I Have stated this a few times. I apologise if it was not clear enough to understand. On August 03 2012 15:23 Mordanis wrote: DP again misreads my post on Prom. I said I was confused by his play, I did not say it was scummy. You posted a case on him and stated he was mildly scummy. Furthermore you were incredibly wishy-washy in your conclusion. Which is the main thing that is scummy because it was a dramatic shift in style from your day 1 play and allowed you to follow the position of others without sticking your neck out. On July 31 2012 19:10 Mordanis wrote: Essentially, from what I've read about XIX Promethelax kind of mauled town by getting into the "town circle", and controlling the game from there. I don't think a smart person could try the same strategy against people its already been used on and expect to win again. For that reason, Promethelax's inconsistent/illogical/ seems to be a mild indicator of scumminess. Also, being relatively inactive during one day reduces the amount of stuff any player needs to defend himself later. Edit before having to double post (EBHTDP) I am still confused by large parts of his play. For instance the part about lynching semi-lurkers seems sort of like what he's doing. GK hasn't posted nearly as many times as Prom himself, myself, Keir, Ange, Obvious, or Shady. 6 players of 12 left have 3 or more pages in their filter, the other 6 have 2. GK has spent a lot of his time defending himself, so if you take that away he's pretty lurky. But the caffeine is wearing off now, see y'all in the morning. Still, I like the content he generated with that post on GK, so I'll be watching Prom closely. I seriously need to pass out now though :/[/QUOTE] On August 03 2012 15:23 Mordanis wrote: DP then goes on to say that my not wanting to vote without information is scummy. Why? Scum know the flip, and with their handy-dandy knowledge of who's who its a lot easier to understand peoples' play. Who is killed doesn't matter as much to scum either because as long as it furthers their goal of remaining undetected, they are happy with the result. They keep their kp. Town, on the other hand, gets only one vote for one lynch per day. With very limited information, trying to get information before voting seems rather more suited towards town play than scum. I disagree. You had all day to review the thread, filters and to post cases. Yet the posts you made were very wishy-washy. etc and non-committal. Waiting to see who others will vote for is scummy behaviour because it allows you to just join the most popular bandwagon in order to seem less conspicuous. Which is Exactly what you did in the end. During your vote you were wishy-washy and it seemed you were distancing yourself from the mislynch. I feel like what i have already posted on this topic makes sense. If you didn't think prox was scum why did you vote for him? If you did why were you so wishywashy and attempt to distance yourself from the lynch before he flipped the elegant solution is that you knew he was going to flip green and wanted to distance yourself from the mislynch but still ensure it happened. Therefore I feel it is scummy. On August 03 2012 15:23 Mordanis wrote: Again DP completely ignores what he just posted on me to build his nonsensical case on me. The previous thing that he called me out for being wishy-washy is my reason for thinking the lynch on Prom was a bad choice. Prom's play was confusing, but it didn't help scum really. He called me out for thinking it was a weak case but ignores my explanation for why and then calls me out for not explaining why I thought it was a weak case. Wow, that logic seemed pretty circular. Long story short, the few things in this case that might seem weird have no justification for why they are scummy, and the rest is DP citing one short period of time and calling me out for doing one thing and the opposite of that thing. DP is either too busy eating glue to think, too biased to think critically, or scum. I really don't understand this argument at all really. This is not true at all. I thought the cases on you were quite clear and I didn't feel the need to repeat the cases against you again. Your explanations I feel have not been adequate and seem to confirm you are scum because your defense of the case against you has been a mess. Others can understand the points and cases against you. I just assumed you would too. (as I said previously I am sorry if you feel I have been/am being rude and obnoxious towards you. I am just arguing my case it is not personal) | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
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DarthPunk
Australia10854 Posts
On August 03 2012 16:50 DarthPunk wrote: Although this doesn't address the cases against you I will respond. I posted about you several times during day 2. They are contained within the case you quoted. I don't like to post much during night cycles as all it does is give mafia additional information upon which they can make a night kill. We can't lynch at night so I don't see the point in showing your hand. This has all been stated previously. But you seem to want me to state it all gain so here goes. The thing scummy with your day one play is that you lead the mislynch of Golbat for pretty much the entire day. After the bandwagon had started rolling you said that you read obvious' filter from the previous game and that convinced you enough that Golbat was townie that you unvoted him. You then second the position of others and voted Shady Sands without basing it on reasoning or adding anything to the case. The reason I believe this is scummy You lead a mislynch then once the ball was rolling you switched voted onto someone elses case. I believe you did that in order to distance you self from the mislynch and to set up a potential mis-lynch day 2. After receiving pressure from this turn of events from myself and Keirathi. you revert to your original position on Golbat. You were still one of the last to vote for golbat, despite leading his mislynch and amidst the confusion i believe you achieved your goal. To lead a mislynch on golbat whilst attempting to distance yourself from it, and potentially set up a mislynch on shady sands for the following cycle. I Have stated this a few times. I apologise if it was not clear enough to understand. I disagree. You had all day to review the thread, filters and to post cases. Yet the posts you made were very wishy-washy. etc and non-committal. Waiting to see who others will vote for is scummy behaviour because it allows you to just join the most popular bandwagon in order to seem less conspicuous. Which is Exactly what you did in the end. During your vote you were wishy-washy and it seemed you were distancing yourself from the mislynch. I feel like what i have already posted on this topic makes sense. If you didn't think prox was scum why did you vote for him? If you did why were you so wishywashy and attempt to distance yourself from the lynch before he flipped the elegant solution is that you knew he was going to flip green and wanted to distance yourself from the mislynch but still ensure it happened. Therefore I feel it is scummy. I really don't understand this argument at all really. This is not true at all. I thought the cases on you were quite clear and I didn't feel the need to repeat the cases against you again. Your explanations I feel have not been adequate and seem to confirm you are scum because your defense of the case against you has been a mess. Others can understand the points and cases against you. I just assumed you would too. (as I said previously I am sorry if you feel I have been/am being rude and obnoxious towards you. I am just arguing my case it is not personal) | ||
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