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On August 03 2012 21:41 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 21:34 Ange777 wrote:
And that's why not keeping up with the correct facts and misquoting other player's statements can't be only deemed as a tell for bad town players but has to make him scummy as well. Yep. You are exactly right. that is why I can't be 100% sure if he is playing badly as scum or playing badly as town.
So tell me why you say that the mistake seems to only give you a town vibe? Or did I misunderstand that earlier post?
On August 03 2012 21:03 DarthPunk wrote:
He is making mistakes. But there doesn't seem to be a discernible motive behind them.
If these mistakes in some way furthered an agenda they would be a lot more worrying to me than just making mistakes for no reason whatsoever.
This actually makes me lean towards just a bad townie more than anything. Why as scum would he make such obvious mistakes and cast suspicion on him for nothing? To me it seems less likely for scum to make stupid mistakes like this exactly because they are more likely to be careful.
Even mords day 1 posting was better than this. What made it scummy? he was actively pursuing an agenda. If zork has an agenda with his mistakes it is to make everyone super suspicious of him. This is the reason I don't think these mistakes can be used as 100% proof of his scumminess as you do.
On August 03 2012 22:13 DarthPunk wrote:
@ange777
We seem to have exactly the same positions as each other on our respective lynches. I don't supposed I have convinced you to vote for Mordanis again?
Sorry no :D I really hope that Shady, alan and aRyuujin show up though. I have not seen them take part in this discussion so maybe they will consider my case on Zork.
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I'll be out now and will hopefully be back 1-2 hours before the deadline.
@DarthPunk: You said you will re-read my case on Jingle? What's your opinion?
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It gives me more of a town vibe because scum are more likely to be careful and not make stupid mistakes like Zork is making. But as you say, making mistakes like that does not mean he is town and he could just as likely be scum.
What I don't understand about the mistakes he made, and this didn't come across in your case on him, Is what motivation could he have for playing so badly? All the other mistakes that have been made in this game to me seem to have been trying to confuse peoples cases, distance themselves from mislynches, cause a mislynch etc.
Thoughts?
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@Jingle @Ange777
On August 03 2012 22:19 Ange777 wrote:
@DarthPunk: You said you will re-read my case on Jingle? What's your opinion?
On August 03 2012 06:01 Ange777 wrote:
But only a couple of hours later (to be precise directly after I had posted my case against Zork) you had miraculously not only finished reading the thread, no you also had a very strong conviction that I am scummy. Based on arguments you yet have to show me. And while you have been tunneling me you have totally ignored my case on Zork based on his scumslip and the following reactions.
Would you please give me a town motivation for ignoring the case on Zork? Oh, and please keep in mind, attacking me doesn't qualify as a defense! [/b]
So this is just wrong. Jingle started airing suspicions against you well before you started going after zork. In no way is the jingle situation between you and him relevant to the zork case. I don't know why you would draw that connection at all. If you had read the last game you will see that jingle caught scum by Identifying and avoiding a similar situation so it is understandable that he would be on the look out for a repeat of that. Your response to him was OMGUS and WIFOM. I can understand why he finds you suspicious, particularly when you immediately become super aggressive towards him when he posts a case on you. I don't really think you have a case on him to be honest.
I initially had a small town read on you but after actually reading through the discussion between yourself and jingle I am starting to worry about you. Your reaction to jingle's pressure was an incredibly disproportionate response, and trying to draw a connection to a case you posted hours after jingle had first cast suspicion on you is very suspicious to me.
I don't see any connections whatsoever between Jingles pressure on you and your case on zork. I have no idea why you would try and draw a connection that wasn't there. It seems to be OMGUS. but I don't like the fact that several aspects of your case (Jingle connection, MrMedic post) seem to have fallen apart on closer inspection and the fact that many of the other points could just be bad town play, makes me even more wary of following your lynch on Zork. It seems like it is just an attempt to make an easy mislynch on a lurky bad town player.
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I just came back from working after hours.
@Mordanis
I am disappointed. No one ever look at any case I wrote. Are they that bad? Am I being ignored? No. Not even Mordanis feels he needs to waste his energy posting a defence. Do you think it suck so bad it does not even matter, or you are just ignoring it, like how you have been ignoring other people's case on you, for being widely inactive, and over-apologetic. Why was MY post never taken seriously all the time? Do I suck that bad?
Why are you ignoring my defence on your case against me? Did you just randomly pick two players and attack them? Once one of them sparked a Zorkmid bandwagon you totally forgotten about me? Do I still deserve my FOS or not? Did my defence cleared myself out of doubt or not?
Why are you playing in such a way? You started the first ever case, and lingers on it despite you're calling yourself "trying to spark the scumhunt?" Why do you switch to Golbat, Shady and Golbat again? Are you desperate to hunt scum, or are you desperate to lead spark a mislynch?
@Ange
Yes. I saw your case on Zork. I don't see the OBVIOUS SCUM SLIP. Your arguments on him was that he is wishy-washy, never built a real case himself, which yourself suggested that it satisfies a whole lot of players in this particular game.
Then you jumped to OMG I MISSED SCUM SLIP.
I failed to understand how speaking from a thrid-person's PoV imply you aren't part of that person's circle? SO you are also suggesting Mordanis must not be scum because he is speaking from a thrid-person's PoV every single time he talk about scum's possible motivation? + Show Spoiler +I can't believe I missed that TOWN SLIP!
@Zorkmid
What the heck is your game? Where the fuck did you go? Why did you go out and posted that "SCUM SLIP"? Why are you making such a big deal about a stupid relief post? Why do reading your filter makes me want to vote for you so bloody much?
Why did you sheep? Why were your cases a rehash of everyone else's case? Where is your own reads? You and all the lurkers are all hurting town, or is being INCREDIBLY LAZY SCUMS.
@JingleHell
+ Show Spoiler +What the hell? What's up with that most painfully narrow tunnel I have ever seen? Why do you make me regret saying I adore your play?
How does:
- suggesting you to post more reads because you are new and might open more perspective to town
- proceed to post another case on people HE ALREADY HAVE HIS FOS ON
- OH WAIT! HIS CASE HAS THE SAME AS MY TARGET!!! I DON'T GET IT!!!
Why do he needs to explain a townie motive? How do you explain one? What motive could he have, at all.
How about, give me a townie motive for tunnelling and voting on such a ridiculous case? I don't see a townie motive. Mind explaining yourself? I suggest you drop your case on Ange, and votes one of the candidates here instead, as it is very possible that there is a SCUM in here. + Show Spoiler +Oh wait I need to explain a townie motivation. How about REDUCING THE RISK OF GETTING A NO LYNCH?.
In all seriousness, mind posting something that is other than:
+ Show Spoiler +Target's latest defence against No! You did not explain a town motive! I vote you ##v0t3 example1
over a thousand times?
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You know, I don't care how you feel about my play, although that feels like an attempt to stroke my ego and get me to listen to you.
If you don't understand how I think it's fishy that someone (to paraphrase) wants me to not tunnel and then adds evidence to the only case I've made I can't help you. What I can do is remember that there's probably a fair number of active scum left, and wonder why you're defending Ange so staunchly when he's not even in danger at the moment.
If you've joined the list of people who don't understand the definition of motive, and refuse to look it up, that's great, but don't expect me to change my mind based on your ignorance.
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On August 03 2012 23:35 alan133 wrote:
@Mordanis
I am disappointed. No one ever look at any case I wrote. Are they that bad? Am I being ignored? No. Not even Mordanis feels he needs to waste his energy posting a defence. Do you think it suck so bad it does not even matter, or you are just ignoring it, like how you have been ignoring other people's case on you, for being widely inactive, and over-apologetic. Why was MY post never taken seriously all the time? Do I suck that bad?
I know how you feel. I feel like my cases on mord are never answered properly and then a bandwagon forms that mord starts or jumps onto and someone is mislynched
On August 03 2012 23:35 alan133 wrote:
Why are you ignoring my defence on your case against me? Did you just randomly pick two players and attack them? Once one of them sparked a Zorkmid bandwagon you totally forgotten about me? Do I still deserve my FOS or not? Did my defence cleared myself out of doubt or not?
On August 02 2012 15:04 Shady Sands wrote:
He's set up a rhythm here: find a weakness that isn't directly related to being scummy (newbieness and past play), second an accusation, then sit back and watch the fireworks, and possibly set up a (mis)lynch for the next day if possible. All this smacks of a very aggressive scum play.
YEP
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ok. it's 2am. i am going to have a short sleep and be back before deadline.
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Hey Jingle, if I may have a moment of your time. I'm about to head out the door for the rest of the day but I wanted to ask you about something. Based on our last game together, you played a fairy suspicious-of-all town and weren't abashed of moving on to better targets as they sprung up. My question to you is this: do you not find it more suspicious than the situation you are looking at with Ange that Zorkmid has come under fire recently and the town is suddenly super active? This Mord case seems like a direct counter-wagon to Zork, the kind that appears when scum is close to getting lynched. Given that Mord has been under vague suspicions since the beginning of the game, don't you think it's fair that you take a good shake at voicing at least your own opinion on the case I and others have been making against Zork? Ange may be suspicious and all but you can see for yourself that there are bigger fish to deal with today. I'm leaving for about 13 hours right after this post it's just something that occurred to me overnight trying to fall asleep.
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On August 04 2012 00:46 Obvious.660 wrote:
Hey Jingle, if I may have a moment of your time. I'm about to head out the door for the rest of the day but I wanted to ask you about something. Based on our last game together, you played a fairy suspicious-of-all town and weren't abashed of moving on to better targets as they sprung up. My question to you is this: do you not find it more suspicious than the situation you are looking at with Ange that Zorkmid has come under fire recently and the town is suddenly super active? This Mord case seems like a direct counter-wagon to Zork, the kind that appears when scum is close to getting lynched. Given that Mord has been under vague suspicions since the beginning of the game, don't you think it's fair that you take a good shake at voicing at least your own opinion on the case I and others have been making against Zork? Ange may be suspicious and all but you can see for yourself that there are bigger fish to deal with today. I'm leaving for about 13 hours right after this post it's just something that occurred to me overnight trying to fall asleep.
I think that in a game going this well for scum, a direct counter wagon would be incredibly stupid, throwing someone under the bus would be better. At the very least, I think the scum votes are probably split, unless they're completely ignoring their coach, because their coach would be telling them not to risk guilt by association on the entire team when they're doing this well with so many sheep in town.
Long story short, it's possible, but I personally find it unlikely due to the incredible level of risk involved, and wouldn't be terribly surprised if both are actually town.
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On August 04 2012 00:46 Obvious.660 wrote:
Hey Jingle, if I may have a moment of your time. I'm about to head out the door for the rest of the day but I wanted to ask you about something. Based on our last game together, you played a fairy suspicious-of-all town and weren't abashed of moving on to better targets as they sprung up. My question to you is this: do you not find it more suspicious than the situation you are looking at with Ange that Zorkmid has come under fire recently and the town is suddenly super active? This Mord case seems like a direct counter-wagon to Zork, the kind that appears when scum is close to getting lynched. Given that Mord has been under vague suspicions since the beginning of the game, don't you think it's fair that you take a good shake at voicing at least your own opinion on the case I and others have been making against Zork? Ange may be suspicious and all but you can see for yourself that there are bigger fish to deal with today. I'm leaving for about 13 hours right after this post it's just something that occurred to me overnight trying to fall asleep.
I don't see how the mord case is a 'counter-wagon' to anything. Read through the thread. The case on mord began before the case on zork even started. Even Ange777 made a case on mord before she started her case on Zork. The case against him has not been answered aside from asking what the case against him was when several cases on him had been posted he has done nothing but second ange's position and then disappeared from the thread.
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So NO ONE has changed their votes lol.
I'll say this now: Shady hasn't participated in over a day... If he had participated to any degree this past 24 hours town would have been in much better shape now. Town had a great opportunity to get back into this game by rallying behind him, but now that opportunity is slipping through our fingers...
Considering the stubbornness with which both JingleHell and Zork have voted for their candidates and haven't tried to help with securing a lynch majority, it is clear as day to me that they are scum.
Then there is only one scum remaining, and he is voting FOR ONE OF THE TWO CANDIDATES with four votes. With Zork pegged as scum, one of the three remaining people is also scum: alan133, aRyuujin, Darthpunk.
I said before that I would stand by Shady Sands, after he had already voted for Mord. Instead of helping town, he's afked, and in the process has let town down  . I am nearly 100% certain at this point that Mord. is innocent, but shady is only confirmed town meaning EVERY TOWN REMAINING would have to vote for the other candidate, Zork, for Zork to be lynched. That's simply not going to happen. And at this point, it feels just as unlikely that whichever other two town are on Mord. will be changing their votes... In other words, I'm pretty sure today is no-lynch.
There is also the possibility that JingleHell and Zork would tack onto the innocent candidate bandwaggon, which could secure the majority, but would condemn them as scum. I don't see that happening, though honestly it is their best move (lol) since it would guarantee LYLO for town.
Ironically, if town no lynches today, a situation I hadn't considered, town in fact still isn't in LYLO.
This is a situation I hadn't accounted for, but the complete gridlock in the voting has clearly demonstrated where some of the scum are. A lot of information has been presented from voting patterns even without a lynch.
So while I could switch my vote to an innocent man, and stay true to my word, I prefer hypocrisy.
My plan with Shady as leader is still the best chance for town, and hopefully town will realize that tomorrow. But the biggest component of that plan, Shady himself, needs to become proactive in rallying town together for that plan to work.
Further, if we were just to lynch: Zork and JingleHell the next two days, and cop were to survive, then:
We could go from a 1/3 chance to catch the last scum and win to a much better chance (not 100%... the last scum could still be godfather..., ((1/3)(1/3)+(1)(2/3))*100 = ~78% if you really wanted to know).
I know that some might consider everything I've just said speculation, but nothing in this game is certain. I strongly believe that today's voting patterns have pegged two scum, and provided us the place to look for the last one. I look forward to hearing everyone's opinions tonight.
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On August 04 2012 01:00 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 00:46 Obvious.660 wrote:
Hey Jingle, if I may have a moment of your time. I'm about to head out the door for the rest of the day but I wanted to ask you about something. Based on our last game together, you played a fairy suspicious-of-all town and weren't abashed of moving on to better targets as they sprung up. My question to you is this: do you not find it more suspicious than the situation you are looking at with Ange that Zorkmid has come under fire recently and the town is suddenly super active? This Mord case seems like a direct counter-wagon to Zork, the kind that appears when scum is close to getting lynched. Given that Mord has been under vague suspicions since the beginning of the game, don't you think it's fair that you take a good shake at voicing at least your own opinion on the case I and others have been making against Zork? Ange may be suspicious and all but you can see for yourself that there are bigger fish to deal with today. I'm leaving for about 13 hours right after this post it's just something that occurred to me overnight trying to fall asleep. I don't see how the mord case is a 'counter-wagon' to anything. Read through the thread. The case on mord began before the case on zork even started. Even Ange777 made a case on mord before she started her case on Zork. The case against him has not been answered aside from asking what the case against him was when several cases on him had been posted he has done nothing but second ange's position and then disappeared from the thread.
I'm actually more nervous about Obvious's reasoning for the way he addressed me here than I am about what he suggested. I already explained why I think it's a silly scenario, but I have a natural distrust for people who try to win me over on WIFOM and diplomacy, rather than a good case.
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Ok, trying to say "You're next because you don't agree with me", when there's not some sort of rock solid evidence...
You're right, I've been too stubborn. People aren't ready to vote for Ange.
##Unvote
##Vote GK
You seem awfully convinced that certain people are scum based on flips that haven't happened, and that's kind of an obvious slip.
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Actually, too many sheep to try and shift things this late.
##Unvote
##Vote Mordanis
Just because I don't trust Ange or GK, I'll get my vote counter to theirs.
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seriously?
On August 04 2012 01:01 goodkarma wrote:Considering the stubbornness with which both JingleHell and Zork have voted for their candidates and haven't tried to help with securing a lynch majority, it is clear as day to me that they are scum. Then there is only one scum remaining, and he is voting FOR ONE OF THE TWO CANDIDATES with four votes. With Zork pegged as scum, one of the three remaining people is also scum: alan133, aRyuujin, Darthpunk. I said before that I would stand by Shady Sands, after he had already voted for Mord. Instead of helping town, he's afked, and in the process has let town down . I am nearly 100% certain at this point that Mord. is innocent, but shady is only confirmed town meaning EVERY TOWN REMAINING would have to vote for the other candidate, Zork, for Zork to be lynched. That's simply not going to happen. And at this point, it feels just as unlikely that whichever other two town are on Mord. will be changing their votes... In other words, I'm pretty sure today is no-lynch. There is also the possibility that JingleHell and Zork would tack onto the innocent candidate bandwaggon, which could secure the majority, but would condemn them as scum. I don't see that happening, though honestly it is their best move (lol) since it would guarantee LYLO for town. Ironically, if town no lynches today, a situation I hadn't considered, town in fact still isn't in LYLO. This is a situation I hadn't accounted for, but the complete gridlock in the voting has clearly demonstrated where some of the scum are. A lot of information has been presented from voting patterns even without a lynch. So while I could switch my vote to an innocent man, and stay true to my word, I prefer hypocrisy. My plan with Shady as leader is still the best chance for town, and hopefully town will realize that tomorrow. But the biggest component of that plan, Shady himself, needs to become proactive in rallying town together for that plan to work. Further, if we were just to lynch: Zork and JingleHell the next two days, and cop were to survive, then: We could go from a 1/3 chance to catch the last scum and win to a much better chance (not 100%... the last scum could still be godfather..., ((1/3)(1/3)+(1)(2/3))*100 = ~78% if you really wanted to know). I know that some might consider everything I've just said speculation, but nothing in this game is certain. I strongly believe that today's voting patterns have pegged two scum, and provided us the place to look for the last one. I look forward to hearing everyone's opinions tonight.
Wait how did mord go from suspicious to a confirmed town?
ok this is the most retarded thing I have ever read. You have spent the best part of the day saying we should all lynch who shady wants in order to secure a lynch, and now you are saying we should no lynch. Everyone who hasn't voted your way is now potentially scum and this
Considering the stubbornness with which both JingleHell and Zork have voted for their candidates and haven't tried to help with securing a lynch majority, it is clear as day to me that they are scum.
Is not a read, not a case. Do you think if zork was around he wouldn't vote for mord to save himself. Jingle has a case against ange777 that has not been answered. But Somehow not answering cases against you is a sure way to prove you are town. WTF?
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I mean honestly. I can't even begin to express how badly my mind is blown at that post.
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Just thought you should know that my TL mafia ban from a year ago all began from being tunneled as a townie.
This quote from Zorkmid is a little weird. Moving on...
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I think that in a game going this well for scum, a direct counter wagon would be incredibly stupid, throwing someone under the bus would be better. At the very least, I think the scum votes are probably split, unless they're completely ignoring their coach, because their coach would be telling them not to risk guilt by association on the entire team when they're doing this well with so many sheep in town.
Long story short, it's possible, but I personally find it unlikely due to the incredible level of risk involved, and wouldn't be terribly surprised if both are actually town.
This does not make sense with
Just because I don't trust Ange or GK, I'll get my vote counter to theirs.
We know that as town we have to stand together to make a successful lynch, and that splitting votes to counter is not an indicator of innocence. So why would Jinglehell do it?
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EPT
