EPTMy case on Zork:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315¤tpage=38#760
Newbie Mini Mafia XXII - Page 42
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
My case on Zork: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315¤tpage=38#760 | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10859 Posts
On August 03 2012 15:56 goodkarma wrote: @DarthPunk: I read Mord.'s terrible Keir arguement during the opening of the game, and I have seen his wishy-washy, noncommital arguements against people such as Prox. I agree with the cases brought against him. His actions certainly have made him look scummy, but I feel they are being taken into consideration without considering if he could play the same way as town. Look at where "scum reads" have gotten us days one and two. Golbat and Prox., in my opinion, played town terribly. But just as much as it was their responsibility to prove their innocence, it was ours to determine if their motivations could fit those of a townie playing badly. While I agree that Mord. could very well be scum, from what I've seen he could also be a town that isn't playing very well. Since that perspective hasn't been contributed by others, that is what I've brought to the "Mord. case." And as for my statistics: feel free to call it speculation, but if I'm right there are scum that have also contributed to the case against him and want him lynched. As for pursuing lurky-type persons? There are about three "lurkers," all of which have acted suspiciously (aRyuujin, Zork, JingleHell), and three mafia. There is no reason to assume that all mafia this game couldn't be "lurkers." Feel free to call me biased toward only lurkers, but remember I've also made a case against Prox who definitely wasn't a lurker in day 2. On the other hand, you are definitely biased toward only finding "loud scum." And there's no guarantee scum in the "loud" category even exist this game. The bottom line: scum is scum, no matter where they come from. My strongest reads happen to come from the "lurker" category right now. I have made what I feel to be a strong case against aRyuujin, and have added to the case against Zork. I encourage you to read what I've written on them, and tell me exactly why it is my case is weaker than your Mord. case. And I am 100% certain that aRyuujin, specifically, will not contribute any more than he already has. Everything about his play screams scum to me, perhaps just as much as everything about Mord. seems to scream scum to you. And unlike everyone else here, no further evidence is going to come up to convince others that hasn't shown already since he has become methodical with his "rehash arguement, make FoS, later make vote" routine. I feel justified in pushing my case for his lynch today, because I know that if he is scum (and I'm quite sure he is), and it gets to LYLO he will get a free pass thanks to people like you, and will be able to passively win the game. Ok I will read through them now and get back to you. This post is alot better as it doesn't contain WIFOM or speculation. Those things really rub me the wrong way. | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10859 Posts
On August 03 2012 16:54 Ange777 wrote: @Darthpunk: Please tell me why you think that my case on Zork is weaker? There literally IS a scumslip and yet you don't vote for him? My case on Zork: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315¤tpage=38#760 sure thing I was getting to those anyway. | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10859 Posts
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
We need 6/7 town to get lynch majority... With our current division, I just don't see that happening... I still believe that banding together around Shady was our best chance, and I hope he returns to provide his impressions with the most recently presented cases. I feel very uneasy about voting Mord. On top of the reasons I've already presented, aRyuujin, my top scum suspect, has also gotten onto that bandwaggon. If Shady comes back and decides Mord. is still his best choice, then fine. Until then: b]##unvote ##Vote: Zorkmid[/b] Zorkmid is an obvious scum. I sincerely hope that Darthpunk will change his vote. Even then, I can't help but feel that town is in trouble here. -_- I will be checking this forum again before the deadline, and will only consider changing my vote to one of the following to achieve a majority lynch: aRyuujin, JinglHells, or Shady's choice (if he ever provides an update post). Good luck all... | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
##Unvote ##Vote: Zorkmid | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10859 Posts
On August 03 2012 17:25 goodkarma wrote: [/b]@Shady, wherever you are: I hope you have good reason to be away from these forums... We need 6/7 town to get lynch majority... With our current division, I just don't see that happening... I still believe that banding together around Shady was our best chance, and I hope he returns to provide his impressions with the most recently presented cases. I feel very uneasy about voting Mord. On top of the reasons I've already presented, aRyuujin, my top scum suspect, has also gotten onto that bandwaggon. If Shady comes back and decides Mord. is still his best choice, then fine. Until then: b]##unvote ##Vote: Zorkmid Zorkmid is an obvious scum. I sincerely hope that Darthpunk will change his vote. Even then, I can't help but feel that town is in trouble here. -_- I will be checking this forum again before the deadline, and will only consider changing my vote to one of the following to achieve a majority lynch: aRyuujin, JinglHells, or Shady's choice (if he ever provides an update post). Good luck all... Can I just clarify before you leave why you are voting for Zork if Aryuujin is your top scum read. also. SEE waiting around for shady sands to see who to vote for is ridiculous. I am SO GLAD you are going back on that. | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10859 Posts
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
Being confirmed town gives you so much opportunies to pressure others without having to worry about defending your own alignment and yet since the day post there has not been much from you besides that vote against Mordanis. Please come back and get active!! Town is awfully split right now and we need every single vote especially yours. | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10859 Posts
On August 03 2012 00:17 Zorkmid wrote: What are you talking about? I honestly can't see how one person, let alone two people would see this as a slip. Let me walk you through what I assumed to be pretty straight forward logic. I believe that no smart green or blue would have made the post that Prom did....but he did, hence I thought that he may be red. I'm speculating on the meaning of Prom's actions based on what I would do, nothing more, nothing less. I think that most people followed this logic just fine, as it contributed to Prom's mis-lynch. I don't post as often as many players, but at least what I do post has some thought behind it. Ok my analysis - ignoring the scum slip which I will get to later. Zork is playing really badly. He is playing really badly as town OR as scum. He has been confused more than once as to what is happening in the game, who he has suspicions on etc. On July 31 2012 22:02 Zorkmid wrote: I honestly just forgot about SS, but your accusation has led me to go back through his filter. I've noticed that he has never addressed my accusation about him. On August 03 2012 00:17 Zorkmid wrote: What are you talking about? I honestly can't see how one person, let alone two people would see this as a slip. Let me walk you through what I assumed to be pretty straight forward logic. I believe that no smart green or blue would have made the post that Prom did....but he did, hence I thought that he may be red. I'm speculating on the meaning of Prom's actions based on what I would do, nothing more, nothing less. I think that most people followed this logic just fine, as it contributed to Prom's mis-lynch. I don't post as often as many players, but at least what I do post has some thought behind it. Which makes me tend to believe him when he says that he is not paying attention to the thread because of IRL commitments. Because why? what are the scum motivations behind his posts? This is still bad play and hurts town. As I said earlier It isn't easy to get a scum read when there has been so little activity from him. His posts make no sense as either scum or town. He is Lurking though. If we get to LYLO and we have nothing to go off in terms of reads that is a major liability. on the scum slip. @ange777 I don't think your logic is as iron clad as you believe. On July 31 2012 22:46 Zorkmid wrote: I also think that your "relief post" is strange. It's sort of WIFOM, but I don't think that as a green or blue I would ever post something like that. It's just yelling out "I'm A TOWNIE huehuehue". I wouldn't post it because it reeks of redness What I think he is trying to say is this. He thinks saying this is scummy. No town player would need to say this, he is town so he wouldn't say it. It is WIFOM and speculation and is written poorly. (which I hate) yet can't see a scum motivation or plan for this. It is possible that he is scum and that this is the evidence. It is also possible that he is bad at explaining himself, a poor writer and you are reading too much into this. Your entire case is based around reading a few statements a certain way, and thus seems to be weaker than my case on mordanis and weaker than your case on mordanis (that you seem to have dropped off the face of the earth). If it comes to a no lynch situation I will be willing to change my vote. (as everyone should be) but at this time the cases on Mordanis are far stronger. If people are set on lynching lurky players aRyuujin is a stronger lynch IMO. He has less than a one page filter he votes Golbat day 1. went AFK for 2 cycles comes back and puts a vote on mord that just echos my position and then leaves again. I wish we still had a Vig cause aRyuujin has been and will increasingly become a serious liability. | ||
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
The slip I am talking about is not only WIFOM. It is literally a scumslip. On July 31 2012 22:46 Zorkmid wrote: I also think that your "relief post" is strange. It's sort of WIFOM, but I don't think that as a green or blue I would ever post something like that. It's just yelling out "I'm A TOWNIE huehuehue". I wouldn't post it because it reeks of redness On August 02 2012 21:42 Zorkmid wrote: So reasoning out what types of statements I think that greens and blues would or wouldn't make is my scumslip? My HUGE scumslip? Give me a break. One of the ways that I do analysis is to try and look at the suspicious posts through the lens of different roles. I tried explaining it earlier. A regular town player would just say: I wouldn't have posted that. Only being scum you would say: Oh, if I was town, I wouldn't have posted that. When Zork tries to explain that he used a different role to analyze he makes the second mistake. If he was town, he would not use a different role when he thinks about whether a town player would say that or not. I agree that the mindset thing might look a bit WIFOM. But the slip alone is damning enough to be sure that Zork is scum. Just have a look at his non-existent defense against my case. In his struggle to come up with a defense or any other topic, he even lies about the relief posting leading to Prom's mislynch and wants an explanation from MrMedic. This is not a thoughtful town player who has made one mistake. He slipped twice. He makes no try at defending himself besides saying that he can't catch my point about the slip. Add all of the above to the other problems we had with Zork: 1. semi-lurking 2. posting inconsistently 3. waiting for cases to sheep If you still have doubts about Zork, try to come up with a town motivation for the lack of defense against my case. Unfortunately there is none. Now think about a scum motivation for his play and recent absence. Yeah, trying to wriggle himself out of this situation. One more point which I believe proves my point is the weird case Jingle made on me. He started a case just after I had accused Zork. What a timing ... he claims that I had pressured him to give reads and than afterwards agreed with the single read he had offered until then. As he can't think of any town motivation for my behaviour, he votes me. I explain that asking for reads is a perfectly normal thing to do for any town player, especially if the one you are asking is a null read for every player. And I had made that case on Shady because I was still suspicious of him until his mason claim. After a lot of pointless discussion Jingle than claims that he can't see any town motivation for me being suspicious of Shady. Well but all my suspicions were stated in the case I made which originally made him think I am scummy. In my opinion it's such a contradiction and therefore not a real case on me but rather a hasty try to doubt my credibilty as I have hit home with my case on Zork. As I have stated previously, connection based cases are indeed dangerous which is why I won't pressure for a Jingle lynch until after we have lynched scum Zork. | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10859 Posts
On August 03 2012 00:17 Zorkmid wrote: I believe that no smart green or blue would have made the post that Prom did....but he did, hence I thought that he may be red. I'm speculating on the meaning of Prom's actions based on what I would do, nothing more, nothing less. This whilst far from enough to convince me of his innocence, IS a plausible explanation of his slip. I am not comfortable with risking a mislynch on a player based off reading one sentence a certain way when there is a plausible explanation which can cause it to be looked at in a different way. Remember the last 'scumslip' in this game. With golbat? I don't want a repeat of that. So I need more than the perceived Scumslip to go off on Zorkmid. The rest of the case is much less developed. 1. semi-lurking 2. posting inconsistently 3. waiting for cases to sheep These are all true. And I have read his filter several times. However, as I have said before, I feel the cases on mordanis are much stronger. In terms of the MrMedic thing that you have mentioned a few times. I noticed reading through his filter that he was actually talking about aRyuujin in the post you referenced. as I stated previously I can't see any logical motivation to his posting. Although I don't see how having little if any defense at all on a case against him proves his motive one way or another. If he wrote a disproportionate amount in his defense and on closer inspection it contained nothing of substance that would give me a definite scum vibe. but no defense at all? I can't see that helping scum OR town. If we are going to lynch a lurker which seems to be the other main argument against Zorkmid I would rather lynch the player with a 1 page filter than the one with a 3 page filter. As for the thing with jingle. I will need to read through it again. | ||
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
On August 03 2012 20:01 DarthPunk wrote: When I first saw it last night I saw it the same way that you do, but then I read this. This whilst far from enough to convince me of his innocence, IS a plausible explanation of his slip. I am not comfortable with risking a mislynch on a player based off reading one sentence a certain way when there is a plausible explanation which can cause it to be looked at in a different way. Remember the last 'scumslip' in this game. With golbat? I don't want a repeat of that. So I need more than the perceived Scumslip to go off on Zorkmid. The rest of the case is much less developed. 1. semi-lurking 2. posting inconsistently 3. waiting for cases to sheep These are all true. And I have read his filter several times. However, as I have said before, I feel the cases on mordanis are much stronger. In terms of the MrMedic thing that you have mentioned a few times. I noticed reading through his filter that he was actually talking about aRyuujin in the post you referenced. as I stated previously I can't see any logical motivation to his posting. Although I don't see how having little if any defense at all on a case against him proves his motive one way or another. If he wrote a disproportionate amount in his defense and on closer inspection it contained nothing of substance that would give me a definite scum vibe. but no defense at all? I can't see that helping scum OR town. If we are going to lynch a lurker which seems to be the other main argument against Zorkmid I would rather lynch the player with a 1 page filter than the one with a 3 page filter. As for the thing with jingle. I will need to read through it again. @DarthPunk: I hope you realize that the post you quoted by Zorkmid was the one where he lied about the relief post being made by Prom and leading to Prom's mislynch. I can only repeat myself. The relief post was made by goodkarma. And not by Prom. Zork lied! And he addressed both, aRyuujin and MrMedic in that post. I didn't vote for Golbat because of any kind of scumslip. I voted for him because I thought he behaved scummily. And now I am voting for Zork not because he is a lurker. But because of his slip in addition to his always wishy-washy stance. I think your case against Mordanis is good. But right now, I am not willing to vote for someone, whom I think has a decent chance of flipping scum when I am convinced that Zork will flip scum! | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10859 Posts
Yeah I know he said the wrong person. He is very confused and constantly make mistakes. But if you replace prom with GK the intent behind it is Plausible. On August 03 2012 01:55 Zorkmid wrote: I think that you, just like MrMedic, owe us an explanation of who you would have voted for and why. If it weren't for the Mod lowering the number of votes required, there would have been a no-lynch. This is the post you are referencing correct? he is asking aRyuujin to write a post like MrMedic did after MrMedic missed the day 1 lynch. that's all. I was wondering what you were talking about in regards to that but it seems you misunderstood. His writing isn't great. On August 03 2012 20:01 DarthPunk wrote: I think your case against Mordanis is good. But right now, I am not willing to vote for someone, whom I think has a decent chance of flipping scum when I am convinced that Zork will flip scum! This is the problem I have as well. | ||
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
On August 03 2012 20:35 DarthPunk wrote: Yeah I know he said the wrong person. He is very confused and constantly make mistakes. But if you replace prom with GK the intent behind it is Plausible. But he should not make these mistakes. He claims that he is a thoughtful poster and therefore has not contributed that much as other players may have. Being this thoughtful such an obvious mistake should not happen. This should prove that his lurking has nothing to do with being thoughtful and careful rather than he is intentionally lurking. On August 03 2012 00:17 Zorkmid wrote: I don't post as often as many players, but at least what I do post has some thought behind it. About the MrMedic thing: Ok, I can see another way to explain that. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
Ange777 ( 1 ): JingleHell aRyuujin ( 0 ): goodkarma ( 1 ): Mordanis ( 4 ): alan133, Shady Sands, aRyuujin, DarthPunk Zorkmid ( 4 ): Ange777, Mordanis, Currently no one is set to be lynched! Majority is 6. Just over 9 hours remain in Day 3 ! | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10859 Posts
If these mistakes in some way furthered an agenda they would be a lot more worrying to me than just making mistakes for no reason whatsoever. This actually makes me lean towards just a bad townie more than anything. Why as scum would he make such obvious mistakes and cast suspicion on him for nothing? To me it seems less likely for scum to make stupid mistakes like this exactly because they are more likely to be careful. Even mords day 1 posting was better than this. What made it scummy? he was actively pursuing an agenda. If zork has an agenda with his mistakes it is to make everyone super suspicious of him. This is the reason I don't think these mistakes can be used as 100% proof of his scumminess as you do. | ||
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
On August 03 2012 21:03 DarthPunk wrote: He is making mistakes. But there doesn't seem to be a discernible motive behind them. If these mistakes in some way furthered an agenda they would be a lot more worrying to me than just making mistakes for no reason whatsoever. This actually makes me lean towards just a bad townie more than anything. Why as scum would he make such obvious mistakes and cast suspicion on him for nothing? To me it seems less likely for scum to make stupid mistakes like this exactly because they are more likely to be careful. Even mords day 1 posting was better than this. What made it scummy? he was actively pursuing an agenda. If zork has an agenda with his mistakes it is to make everyone super suspicious of him. This is the reason I don't think these mistakes can be used as 100% proof of his scumminess as you do. Okay, your explanation is as lot of WIFOM but I guess you could say the same to mine :D When town plays mafia, they don't know any other role than their own. Therefore everything that's said will be scrutinzed and read over and over again in every little detail. When scum plays mafia, they know everyone's roles. Therefore they are more looking for things that can be used to make other people scummy than analyzing every post town has made. So they will focus on what they can use and maybe be a little lazy when reading. And that's why not keeping up with the correct facts and misquoting other player's statements can't be only deemed as a tell for bad town players but has to make him scummy as well. | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10859 Posts
On August 03 2012 21:34 Ange777 wrote: And that's why not keeping up with the correct facts and misquoting other player's statements can't be only deemed as a tell for bad town players but has to make him scummy as well. Yep. You are exactly right. that is why I can't be 100% sure if he is playing badly as scum or playing badly as town. | ||
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DarthPunk
Australia10859 Posts
We seem to have exactly the same positions as each other on our respective lynches. I don't supposed I have convinced you to vote for Mordanis again? | ||
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