EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XVII - Page 25
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zelblade
Australia901 Posts
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
I'd like to open the question to everyone else as well. I'm not sure I'll get an answer from Unforgiven and I'd actually appreciate some sort of explanation if there is one. Is there any reason why a town player would claim vanilla? I honestly can't think of a good one. Between HeavOnEarth's awkward "bus" and Unforgiven's VT claim I think we have all the evidence we need. I feel pretty good about this. ##Vote: HeavOnEarth | ||
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alan133
Malaysia159 Posts
How do we lynch a dead guy  ##Vote: HeavOnEarth I agree. I thought people claiming "I am town" is weird already. Who would say they are not? I did not point it out because so many people started his/her first post by saying "Hi guys, I am town". However, claiming vanilla town is totally different. There is no reason to claim VT, unless you really like to WiFOM, which confuses fellow townies and scums alike, unless you are scum. @Correction to my previous post Now that I read it, I know that is not the case. He actually based his case on some observer's post, and it has been edited out. May I know about the original context of Xatalos's post? I feel kinda unfair because it's information that I can never ever get, and now s0Lsdice is gone I couldn't ask him. I am currently guessing this is the original context: I reread and noticed he only used Xatalos' post as one of the argument, not entirely based on it. However, this does not change my mind on his case. If Unforgiven_ve flipped town.. I don't consider that as a possibility. We will talk about it until he did. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
 ##Unvote: Dead guy ##Vote: Unforgiven_ve | ||
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
I saw the original post before it was edited. I think s0Lstice either misinterpreted Xatalos's post or read too much into it. The only thing of interest was that zelblade has been slipping information in the obs QT. But I could definitely see him doing this regardless of who is mafia. So I don't see this as evidence on unforgiven. | ||
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suki
Canada1159 Posts
In the end, there wasn't really a slip, but I do think s0lstice's point that the moderator actions are a big hint at unforgiven's real role has a lot of merit. In addition, I'd like to point out that in Mafia XV, unforgiven never once claimed that he was vanilla town or even town, despite being a VT. In that game unforgiven got a lot of heat for his posting style (which was pretty anti-town and confusing), but he never tried to claim VT/town and use that as an excuse. | ||
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sciberbia
United States1359 Posts
I'm pretty sure Xatalos's post went something like this: Hi s0Lstice. I've just been following the game a bit and posting reads in the obs QT. It's a shame I can't post them here because zelblade has been slipping information like crazy. oh now I see how you may misinterpret it. I'm pretty damn sure that Xatalos was implying that zelblade was slipping information in the obs QT. Hosts slip information in obs QT's all the time. | ||
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alan133
Malaysia159 Posts
I see. After reading rwhat mod said I thought it was weird s0Lstice based his argument on Xatalos's post. Mod Said: I commented on some stuff in the obs qt and xatalos posted something on the line of "zel slippin information in the obs qt". Not related to anything actually happening in the thread so you can ignore that ^^ from s0Lstice's case: I'll start with the point that Xatalos gave away. Look at how reluctant the mods are to kill this player Perhaps Xatalos gave away more than what mod and you mentioned to me, but basing on what you both said: "zelblade has been slipping information on the obs QT." More speculations and random thoughts drawn on this piece of information
Why is no one else commenting? @Unforgive_ve I am still waiting for your defence. @Golden_ve + Show Spoiler + I just noticed both your names ends with "_ve" I noticed you have not commented. You were active Day 1 and 2, why the sudden change after my case on you? Please don't be afraid to post because of that. There is only one more scum to go. | ||
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suki
Canada1159 Posts
Observers don't know the roles, but the hosts (including zelblade) do. Xatalos' quote doesn't give us any information, so lets not analyse it too deeply. Again to reference Mafia XV, in the obs QT late in the game one of the cohosts posted 'One person's play is really impressing me right now'. The observers used the time of posting of that line and compared it to who had posted most recently in the main thread and came to a conclusion who was the last mafia. There would have been no way for the players to garner any information if an observer had said 'the mods slipped in the obs qt'. What I'm trying to say is there's nothing to gain from analysing possible observer knowledge or observer reading. We should stick with what we know from the thread. | ||
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Unforgiven_ve
Venezuela1232 Posts
i will read starting the last NK! | ||
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Unforgiven_ve
Venezuela1232 Posts
Second, i want to respond to the most "stronger" argument against me, mods not killing me, i just can say this, i dont have a real or graphic way to prove it, (i dont know if its agains the rules to say this) but im gonna do it anyway. After a couple pm's whit the main host about some other thing i asked him to put me in the replacement list, a couple days after a got a pm asking if i was ready to replace MJ, i say "zomg yes lolz" BUT...i didnt counted whit some RL complications, this made it harder to get the pulse of the game and find time to read-post, like i already said, if you check my last couple post you will see i made them around the same time (after 12-1am here)... I can see the mods not killing because i personally asked for a spot and because they dont want this to become another "bunch of modkill-replacements game" (like the last game, i, suki, austin, xatalos shaopi, solstice, sciberbia etc etc played) 3- In the past game i posted a list of recommentations of i think the game should be played, i see some of you are taking a lot of information from past games, this is what i said + Show Spoiler + Also, i have a reccomendation, please people, dont use PAST games as a guide, people change their way of play everytime, the last (and only) game i played, town got fucked (in part) thanks to this...i was mafia, lurking, bad town play and bad reads based on past games granted us the victory, only 1 mafia died thanks to a very lucky shot. 4.- Me claiming Vanilla Townie: from my pov, i wanted to make scumhunting easier for the town, when i realized i wouldnt have much time to post, i decided to come clear and say my roles, that way people had one less player role to worry about, i know "you are giulty till proven otherwise" but i gave it a shot, suki you have a different game whit different players/roles everytime, you cant play all the games the same way (read above) (whitout taking in account RL situations and free time to read/play) 5 .- Solstice case against me + Show Spoiler + On June 19 2012 03:59 s0Lstice wrote: Anyway, yea. Last scum is Unforgiven_ve I'll start with the point that Xatalos gave away  Look at how reluctant the mods are to kill this player. No vote on D1 from Mouldy Jeb, he gets replaced. No vote on D2 from Unforgiven, he gets a warning. Is the last scum going to get mod-killed, resulting in a town win? Doubtful.Now let's look at Mouldy Jeb I'll start with another game he was in, where he was town. Here are some select posts. He explains his reads here, then takes a firm stance with a vote. Look at this game: His reasoning is pretty weak in both games, but it's far weaker in this game. The baseless suspicion of roflewaffles is very, very telling. Looks like newb scum trying to appear like he is pressuring his teammate. The most important thing, however, is no votes. It doesn't match, and it's scummy. Now, move to Unforgiven. He has been useless this game, except for a weak bus on roflwaffles, which gives him just a smidge of town credit. Maybe enough to keep him off the radar while he lurks with purpose. Look at how he dances around austin: This is just after he said his two main suspects were roflewaffles and austin. Now let's look at other games. NMM XV comes to mind. His filter is big, so I'll just highlight a few points. Again, just like MJ, the tone does not match. He is sure-footed and comes down hard on his reads. Here, not so much. I feel like this post is getting pretty big, so I won't pull quotes from NMM XIII, but go have a look. He was scum in that game, and he lurked with purpose. He bussed teammates as well. It looks A LOT like what's happening in this game. That leads me to my next point. This game, right now, feels a lot like XIII. The scum lurked, and town tore itself to pieces, destroying the people with content (who were all town) one by one. It's been a seemingly insurmountable task to find the last scum in this game, and we've already started the process of slowly cannibalizing ourselves. It seems insurmountable because we (I) cleared the last scum based on bussing arguments. A wise man (thanks Marv!) told me in coaching PM's that bussing is only illogical for scum if it causes a scumbuddy to be lynched. When HeavOnEarth and roflewaffles bussed MJ, was there seriously any chance that he was getting lynched that day? No. Emphatically no. Them bussing him was not illogical, it was smart. Look at the confusion it caused. I bet Greymist has been in that scum QT insisting that they not be afraid to call each other out, and he was right of course. I'll even add NK analysis for the cherry on top. Why are our strong town reads still alive? Because we have been completely, utterly, wrong since Day 2 began. Unforgiven was free to blue snipe as he pleased (austin could look blue, no? he is cautious like a blue), because the big talkers were all wrong. Also, remember how the night action was so late? It's because Unforgiven has been busy, like he said. It all makes sense! FINALLY!!!!! Please let's kill Unforgiven_ve on day 3 and be done with this game. I want to feel the sweet taste of victory. On June 19 2012 08:44 Miltonkram wrote: @ s0Lstice I was reading through the filters when I noticed your posts on Unforgiven. I was a little skeptical of the case, it seemed like you were reading way too far into host actions and such. The only thing I found scummy was HeavOnEarth's "bus" of MJ D1. Nevertheless your posts caused me to do a double-check of Unforgiven's filter. I'd like everyone to take a look at this post. What purpose is there in claiming VT? If a player is vanilla they should be happy to take a bullet for our blue roles. Claiming vanilla does nothing for town. What does it do? Firstly, it makes it less suspicious when Unforgiven isn't shot during a night cycle. Secondly, it keeps Unforgiven from committing completely to information. Any actions a VT takes have the built in defense, "but I didn't have complete information." This seems advantageous since roflwaffles was still in the game at that time. If roflwaffles was still alive after N1, he could back down from the weak pressure he posted here. There is absolutely no reason for VT to claim VT. Lynch this guy. , mods not killing me and past games way of play being his first motivations, i would mark it as already answered. Me "dancing" around austin, it was just a hunch, for me it seemed he was trying too hard this time, but that was enough because i just read his filter and all the thread once, rolf's play was pretty standard.6.- alan133 + Show Spoiler + Please respond to your accusations. If you are blue please claim your night actions, now. + Show Spoiler + His opening post randomly attacks one target 7.- Milton again+ Show Spoiler + On June 19 2012 17:56 Miltonkram wrote: Back from work. Unforgiven, is there any reason why you claimed vanilla? I'd like to open the question to everyone else as well. I'm not sure I'll get an answer from Unforgiven and I'd actually appreciate some sort of explanation if there is one. Is there any reason why a town player would claim vanilla? I honestly can't think of a good one. Between HeavOnEarth's awkward "bus" and Unforgiven's VT claim I think we have all the evidence we need. I feel pretty good about this. ##Vote: HeavOnEarth 8.- Suki again + Show Spoiler + On June 20 2012 01:48 suki wrote: following up with what sciberbia said, Xatalos' original quote did not mention the Obs QT. Therefore, I took it as Xatalos was implying that zelblade had slipped information in the main thread. I interpreted it this way, and I think s0lstice did too. This prompted s0lstice to take a much closer look at the mod text, which lead to his theory that because unforgiven had not been modkilled after missing his vote, there was some meta information that could be gathered from it. In the end, there wasn't really a slip, but I do think s0lstice's point that the moderator actions are a big hint at unforgiven's real role has a lot of merit. In addition, I'd like to point out that in Mafia XV, unforgiven never once claimed that he was vanilla town or even town, despite being a VT. In that game unforgiven got a lot of heat for his posting style (which was pretty anti-town and confusing), but he never tried to claim VT/town and use that as an excuse. | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
Quick clarification, are you referring to mafia play here or just newbie play in general? No, im a simple Vanilla, about hard bussing a scum on day 1, this is a ridiculous way to start a MINI game, remember we are all newbies, WE ALL WANT TO STAY ALIVE THE MOST TIME WE CAN, a experimented player cannot say to one of his mates "hey, we are going to kill on day one, sorry for not letting you have some fun"...the only time i see this can happen is when one mafia cannot play because of (again) RL complications and he gladly sacrifices for his team, i dont see this happening in a newbie/mini game. | ||
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Unforgiven_ve
Venezuela1232 Posts
Now, if someone has any doubt/question i would gladly answer it. So...people...we can be sure of something, we have one last good/lucky mafia...i will just post my reasons for alan: town suki: town sciberbia: neutral crossfire: neutral Miltonkram mafia My reasons (this is all 100% filter based) First, His good samaritan side + Show Spoiler + It looks like he's a non-native English speaker. I can understand him having difficulty with the language, let alone conveying a tone that pressures other players. If that's the case I would like to hear more of what he has to say. He's shown a willingness to think deeply and consider all possible lines of play that I think may be valuable to the town. By no means am I clearing him of suspicion, but there is a certain townie logic to some of his actions now that I think more about it. I think we have several better lynch targets anyway. I'll outline who I will support for lynch in my next post. If you check his filter you see he has never been really pressured, being under the radar in general all the 3 days, he has fired some innocent question about "his reads" but never really putting pressure + Show Spoiler + roflwaffles55 I'm suspicious of this guy based on two of his posts. First one is a response to s0Lstice/sciberbia: Sure! When it comes to lynching lurkers I would agree in that it shouldn't be the focus, and would prefer to lynch someone acting scummy day 1. As to NL, I am firmly against it and if we can't get a clear majority on scummy-acting folks then we should at least lynch a lurker, especially on D1 and 2. Notice the eager to please tone of his post. I'm looking at it as a possible scumslip. His 2nd suspicious post: I agree that I may have been a bit too aggressive right off the bat, but I implore you to look at my arguments and his, and take more from it then just an overzealous attempt on my part. ##unvote alan133 There you go, I'm still suspicious, but I may have underestimated the significance of a vote. Notice how self-conscious he is in this post, especially in that last line. I realize that several players weren't interested in his case, but there is absolutely no harm in keeping pressure on a player until they give you a satisfactory defense. Essentially he backs down from his pressure based on a tiny reprimand from Crossfire. It seems like he's trying to keep himself out of the spotlight. @ roflwaffles Ok, I see what you're saying. I thought you were completely backing off of alan even though you've made a decent case against him. I still don't like the fact that you took your vote off of him based on a wrist-slap from Crossfire, but I guess I misunderstood your intent. Since you're still pursuing your case on alan the unvote seems less scummy. HeavOnEarth I was checking on the game at work + Show Spoiler + when I noticed this post and it struck me oddly. was sort of waiting for MJ to post something after he was like hurr durr ima post soon. i took a look at his previous game though and his posts seem consistent from when he was townie. hes really not helping at all, and definitely still looks scum, but it feels like poor town play rather than mafia. as for golden im still undecided since he hasnt posted anything what the fuck -_-. why sign up if ur not gonna fucking play but i guess i doubt hes mafia, i would've expected at least a simple reply to my accusations if he was mafia by now. but it seems he just doesnt give a fuck @_@ idk. kinda confused at this point This just seems like an excuse for a lack of activity. He explains that he's waiting on MJ even though there's plenty of other things going on in the thread. He's also frustrated by one lurker (Golden) even though he's played Mafia before and knows that lurking usually happens in every game. The confused tone is what really gets me. I feel like town would push through the confusion and post reads no matter what. His "confusion" looks like an excuse not to post to me. And after seeing Heaven is going to be lynched and its impossible to stop it he post this: + Show Spoiler + On June 15 2012 04:59 Miltonkram wrote: Oops, slept in a bit later than I'd planned. s0Lstice, I'm inclined to agree with you. HeavOnEarth looks like the best lynch candidate. Everybody, I'd suggest you take a look at him. His filter is not particularly long, but I think there is enough scummy behavior there to warrant a vote. ##Vote: HeavOnEarth On June 15 2012 05:48 Miltonkram wrote: @ Heaven There are a lot of people jumping on your case really quickly. Not gonna lie, it's making me a little nervous. Please post some sort of defense or at the very least what kind of reads you have on players whenever you have the time. When he sees rolf is going to be killed/lynched after the case against him, he tries to gain some credit posting this + Show Spoiler + On June 16 2012 07:33 Miltonkram wrote: Hey guys, just got caught up on the thread. Figured I'd throw in my two cents while I've got time. The case against roflwaffles is the closest I've seen to a slam dunk case in any of the games I've played in. There's not much I can add to it. Proceed to string him up with my blessing unless of course we have a vigi, then just shoot the poor bastard. Not much to add in suggestions for blue players either. Just breadcrumb your night actions so we can come back to them later. I'll have more analysis up shortly. Then he just goes whit the bandwagon and puts me as a sure mafia trying to gain one more day, expecting for a (almost sure) suki misslynch tomorrow, me + nk + suki would leave 3 town and 1 mafia, he just wants to gain some time and try to get another misslynch on golden/cross +NK =GG and after all this, his subconscious betrays him and post this On June 19 2012 18:48 Miltonkram wrote: Wow. I can't believe I did that. Work was pretty brutal tonight and I'm extremely tired. I meant to vote Unforgiven. My bad ##Vote: HeavOnEarth ##Unvote: Dead guy ##Vote: Unforgiven_ve Yeah, gg. I will try and check in tomorrow. sciberbia, suki and alan, please read milton filter's and put yourself in his position, read his posts, analyze his neutral play, under the radar in all the game | ||
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Unforgiven_ve
Venezuela1232 Posts
On June 20 2012 07:49 Miltonkram wrote: @ Unforgiven Quick clarification, are you referring to mafia play here or just newbie play in general? Newbie games my scummy friend | ||
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Unforgiven_ve
Venezuela1232 Posts
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suki
Canada1159 Posts
Now there are two things about last game's unforgiven that I remember. The first is, you got frustrated at everyone and started insulting people when they wouldn't listen to you, and you refused to explain your reads half the time. The second is, you were right for pretty much the entire game. You called me out almost instantly for being scum, and you called heist and Xatalos out really early too. You are really good at reading people and scum hunting. So in order to get yourself out of this situation I want to see you analyse the remaining players in the game and tell me who you think is scum, and why. If you really are scum, I have no doubt that you'll slip. If you're town, then you'll be able to help with a town victory. And if you somehow fail to convince us, then either the game will end come lynch time or your reads will help us secure a victory for the town in the end. | ||
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suki
Canada1159 Posts
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
We seem to have consolidated on Unforgiven for our lynch today. Do not let this kill discussion! I see no harm in moving our discussion forward. At this point our scum player has no one to defend but himself/herself. There is no one on the scum team left to protect anymore so any comments that our scum player makes are with the full intent of making himself/herself look as townie as possible as opposed to covering the tracks of another player. I say this because suki and I are likely the next players on the chopping block. Under this reasoning there's almost nothing we can do to convince town of our innocence. There's nothing suki can do to convince me she isn't scum if Unforgiven flips green, and, if I'm thinking correctly from any of the confirmed town players' viewpoints, there is nothing that I can do to convince you of my innocence. Back to my point. We're lynching Unforgiven today but there is no harm in getting things out of the way for future discussion. If the game continues after this day cycle because Unforgiven flips green (I find it really unlikely at this point), either suki or I is next. First of all, is this correct? Do you guys have any questions for either of us or things you need clarified about our play? If this is correct and you decide on lynching one of us, consolidate on it quickly and let us know that there is no way we can defend ourselves. That way, if we're town, we can spend our time helping out as much as possible rather than wasting it on a defense that no one will listen to anyway. Edit: Just saw Unforgiven's case on me. Posting this anyway. Not really seeing anything in it that sciberbia hasn't already pointed out. Will respond to it shortly after I've reread it a couple times. | ||
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Unforgiven_ve
Venezuela1232 Posts
##Vote Miltonkram | ||
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Miltonkram
United States310 Posts
I'll be back later tonight. | ||
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