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On June 14 2011 13:14 sandroba wrote:
@chaos yes, if I'm gf the plan pretty much screws town over, but you can still lynch me if a lot of blues are dead night1.
You didn't read the plan carefully. If I'm miller the DT will NOT manson me, so I'll post that he didn't and we ignore the plan. If there are no DTs in the first 15 it's the same.
Mafia doesn't know if there are medics on the first 10 so they have to risk hitting me and getting their kp blocked OR letting the plan work. You are assuming mafia has knowledge of this which they do not.
If you flipped red to a check you would have to die anyway which means the dt has to find a way to get you killed.
I will say this purely as someone who ran Salem mafia. You do not, and I repeat do not, try and organize the blues through 1 person. The room for infiltration/leakage of the entire town blue network would screw the entire town. Talking about how to operate in thread is by far the safest, as well as letting blues act properly with their mason links.
Small cells are always better against mafia than one large circle. Especially given this setup.
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hell, even if you are town, Mafia is simply gonna spam you with PMs claiming there DTs and messing with you. There are so many ways this could go wrong...
Its night fucking Zero! Do not claim. No plans. That is all.
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This game starting night 0 is weird as hell.
To start with. As sandroba proposed his plan and I have already said nay to it. I will move onto something I believe to be more useful.
I attempted to do this in PTP but was sadly shot instantly and it was completely ignored. Huge mistake by the town in that game but lets try and get it running this time shall we.
Zodiac list time.
Rebirthoflegend
BloodyC0bbler
Node
Mr.Wiggles
Kitaman
Opz
Youngminii
Scamp
Everyone should be watching players very closely on this list. We as a group will draw insane scrutiny from town and as such dt checks should be used on anyone not us. The group of us should be forced to prove our worth to town. It also provides us with a list that if there are any reds in shooting into becomes dangerous as it lowers the possible hiding spots for them. This should effectively keep veteran townies alive and kicking longer while letting medics work elsewhere.
Dts should be firing into people who are likely to be inactive, or have posted something insanely suspicious. Medics should protect anyone who is not listed above.
Note: This is for night 0 and potentially night 1 only. Past that time frame enough information should be garnered in thread for blues to act properly and the vets to properly distinguish sides.
As a general note. No dt check sandroba as based on his proposed plan no matter what he appears as it cannot be trusted.
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If I return red to a check the DT can get me killed by mansoning someone else (since he won't manson me after I return red) and using him to as mouth to push for my lynch. However I'm not red lol.
How can mafia mess with me? They have to guess my role AND I'll only tell them who to check. What advantage can mafia derive from this?
Maybe organizing blues through one person is not ideal, but it's a start. People still have another manson oportunity which they can use in case I die/ they opt to not trust me.
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err, guys. Just to point something out. It's "mason" not "manson" "mansion" or any other aberration of the word.
On a game related note. This is a NORMAL set up, regardless of whatever this silly PM mechanic is. Focus on behavioral analysis because there is no way to legitimately break the game set up that doesn't come with considerable risk.
Think of it this way, in a normal set up with the ability to PM, would you ever recommend a mass role claim Day 2? No, so why the hell would this be any different? Hint: It's not.
Focus on behavioral analysis and putting pressure on people, that is how towns have won games in the past, and that's how we will win this game. Making a plan to abuse format is always secondary to behavioral analysis in any set up.
My next set of grievances would be that.
1. We can't be sure of your alignment.
2. This plan sucks.
3. I don't know anything of your ability to competently deal with an influx of PM's and sort out the bullshit from the nonbullshit.
4. Plan sucks.
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On June 14 2011 13:30 sandroba wrote:
If I return red to a check the DT can get me killed by mansoning someone else (since he won't manson me after I return red) and using him to as mouth to push for my lynch. However I'm not red lol.
How can mafia mess with me? They have to guess my role AND I'll only tell them who to check. What advantage can mafia derive from this?
Maybe organizing blues through one person is not ideal, but it's a start. People still have another manson oportunity which they can use in case I die/ they opt to not trust me.
so a dt checks you, you flip insert whatever role. They know you could be whatever role you appear or gf. So if you flip red, you could be miller or goon. Dt random masons someone else and tells them to get you offed. Wait, now they have to blind trust someone? Or do another check and hope the person they then check pans out?
Dt's shoudl not claim their role early game. They need time to clear people or damn them. They can push in thread or the like without directly inferring their role based on the information their checks give but should not be claiming to anyone this early. Once you can be sure someone is clear you can claim via mason, but not this early.
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I support the zodiac list as is. This should highly discourage mafia to shoot town veteran players, as it would draw more suspicion towards the people left on the list and make those players be forced to contribute and act extremelly pro-town if they want to avoid being lynched. This should also free our medics and dts to protect/check elsewhere for the same reasons.
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On June 14 2011 13:28 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Zodiac list time.
Rebirthoflegend
BloodyC0bbler
Node
Mr.Wiggles
Kitaman
Opz
Youngminii
Scamp
I'd also like to suggest that people on this list, if you're on towns side of course, to start posting, because you know, getting killed Night 0 sucks.
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On June 14 2011 13:37 sandroba wrote:
I support the zodiac list as is. This should highly discourage mafia to shoot town veteran players, as it would draw more suspicion towards the people left on the list and make those players be forced to contribute and act extremelly pro-town if they want to avoid being lynched. This should also free our medics and dts to protect/check elsewhere for the same reasons.
This entire post is already in BC's post. You didn't say a single thing that he didn't say.
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I'm already sick to death of the talk about the mason system going around so far. Is it really that important to save your mason choices for later and/or not use any early? Quite personally I find the whole mason thing to be useless. People really seem hung up on it so maybe there's something about it I'm not getting.
What can you accomplish with it? You get a nice town circle going? I already know of a place the town circle can talk, it's called the thread. Everyone in the circle has to be a confirmed townie, and if you're a confirmed townie then everyone knows it. Obviously this mason thing can change if you're a DT and if you're a DT I hope you're smart enough to use it well.
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@San's plan
There's also the situation where no DT checks you, or you are GF, and you claim to have been checked. No DT will counterclaim you, as they don't know if other DTs have claimed to you to not. Then, all blue roles claim to you, and instant carnage for town. Any plan that involves mass claims early into the game is bad. If you have a blue role, use your own discretion and act intelligently.
@BC
I can agree to that Zodiac list, and I don't think there's any changes I'd make to it right now.
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@BC I won't go into detail as to how a DT should opt to out me if I'm red as I know I'm not. And yes, I'm asking for blind trust that I'm not GF, because if the DT chooses to trust me it can be extremelly beneficial to town. I have no way of knowing no one else's aligment except my own, so I'm trying to work with the tools I have. A coordinated blue circle, even if it's small, is very advantageous and this is the fastest way of producing one.
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On June 14 2011 13:44 Scamp wrote:
I'm already sick to death of the talk about the mason system going around so far. Is it really that important to save your mason choices for later and/or not use any early? Quite personally I find the whole mason thing to be useless. People really seem hung up on it so maybe there's something about it I'm not getting.
What can you accomplish with it? You get a nice town circle going? I already know of a place the town circle can talk, it's called the thread. Everyone in the circle has to be a confirmed townie, and if you're a confirmed townie then everyone knows it. Obviously this mason thing can change if you're a DT and if you're a DT I hope you're smart enough to use it well.
Well, in my eyes you can use PMs to scum hunt. Pressure people, ask them for their reads. I think it's harder for mafia to be upfront and sincere in PM, than it is in thread, when they have more time to think up their responses and possibly get others on their scum team to edit. You can also look for scum tells, like if what they're saying in PM is different from what they're saying in the thread.
At least, that's how I see it. Less of a place to be green together, and more of a place to scum hunt. It's also good to bounce analysis back and forth. This can be used for scum hunting too, as it's hard for mafia to come up with good reasons someone's mafia, and if they're town, it's nice to get a second perspective on things. However, analysis should still be posted in thread, for the benefit of town at large.
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On June 14 2011 13:44 Scamp wrote:
I'm already sick to death of the talk about the mason system going around so far. Is it really that important to save your mason choices for later and/or not use any early? Quite personally I find the whole mason thing to be useless. People really seem hung up on it so maybe there's something about it I'm not getting.
What can you accomplish with it? You get a nice town circle going? I already know of a place the town circle can talk, it's called the thread. Everyone in the circle has to be a confirmed townie, and if you're a confirmed townie then everyone knows it. Obviously this mason thing can change if you're a DT and if you're a DT I hope you're smart enough to use it well.
I don't know if you've ever played a pm game of mafia before, but it can be very beneficial to discuss things with only one or two people that you trust to be town. You can make plans and lay traps for mafia. Don't underestimate the power of your mason ability.
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@wiggles I described this scenario on my original plan. If I'm mafia 1)I'm risking to be insta outed by a DT check 2)If I lie and claim someone checked me, if there is a DT who actually checked me (which I have no way of knowing since he won't mason me if I return red) he can istantly out me as mafia.
So no, in that scenario there is no possible bad outcome for town.
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Oh hey I made it on a list.
Did sandroba say that it discourages mafia from killing people on the list? Because I'm pretty sure BC said for medics to protect people not on the list, thus the people who are on the list are wide open.
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On June 14 2011 13:49 GGQ wrote:
I don't know if you've ever played a pm game of mafia before, but it can be very beneficial to discuss things with only one or two people that you trust to be town. You can make plans and lay traps for mafia. Don't underestimate the power of your mason ability.
You give me one good example of this happening in a previous mafia game or I vote for your lynch day 1.
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On June 14 2011 13:49 sandroba wrote:
@wiggles I described this scenario on my original plan. If I'm mafia 1)I'm risking to be insta outed by a DT check 2)If I lie and claim someone checked me, if there is a DT who actually checked me (which I have no way of knowing since he won't mason me if I return red) he can istantly out me as mafia.
So no, in that scenario there is no possible bad outcome for town.
1) You could be a miller
2) DT has to reveal himself to out you, either in the thread or to someone chosen randomly that he has no idea if he can trust.
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On June 14 2011 13:50 Scamp wrote:
Oh hey I made it on a list.
Did sandroba say that it discourages mafia from killing people on the list? Because I'm pretty sure BC said for medics to protect people not on the list, thus the people who are on the list are wide open.
The advantage of it is if there are any reds in the list (i would assume there is at least one if not more) that shooting into the list this early on potentially outs themselves. It potentially protects people without the use of a med and lets them instead prot more likely blue snipes.
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On June 14 2011 13:50 Scamp wrote:
Oh hey I made it on a list.
Did sandroba say that it discourages mafia from killing people on the list? Because I'm pretty sure BC said for medics to protect people not on the list, thus the people who are on the list are wide open.
I think the point, is that there's likely to be one, if not more, mafia on the list. Then, as people on the list die, the others start to look more suspicious. Mafia might not want to shoot into the list, as it outs their own members. As well, I believe it's mostly for putting pressure on the people who figure on the list, as they are expected to contribute to town, and will be scrutinized.
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EPT
