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United States22154 Posts
On May 14 2011 10:25 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 10:17 GMarshal wrote:On May 14 2011 10:12 Ace wrote:On May 14 2011 10:06 GMarshal wrote:On May 14 2011 10:05 Ace wrote:
here we go again. Assigning roles before people pick. Disaster incoming. Where exactly does this cause "disaster" to me it looks like it causes accountability for anti-town roles and only for anti-town roles. Can you explain why its a bad idea? I'd really love to hear your input on this. accountability? lol did you read the last 3 PYP games? Yes, yes I did, I fail to see your point, if we know who has the PoD and we go into a double night then we vigi shoot him right off the bat, or lynch him if that isn't an option... Same with the other roles, assuming the plan is actually followed where is the flaw? And if its not followed what do you propose? Everyone picks whatever they want? I feel like thats going to end with the mafia holding enough powerful roles to roll over us by denying lynches/converting people. 1.) Can't know if your "assigned" roles went to the right person. 2.) Won't know if the role went to town or mafia For the chance of tying a few people to roles and not alignment you'll be giving Scum information on where the roles went. Lets not forget that unlike any other PYP game the amount of killing roles in this game are pretty high.
1.) *if* we agree to follow the plan then we will, because if they are town they will pick them, in the interest of benefiting the town, and if they are scum they don't want to be caught at a lie. And we'll be able to tell if the power was picked earlier since the person picking it will get vanilla. However I agree that this might be a weakness of the plan, is there any way to remedy it?
2.) It wont matter, if they are town they will never use the role, if they are mafia we will know if it is used, and will be able to kill them for it, thats the reason for assigning the activated anti-town roles to these players, rather than passive anti-town roles, its *really* easy to tell if they've been used.
On these people being killed by the mafia, then those anti-town roles are out of the game, rather than power roles, I dont see the issue with them being focused down.
I can't say I'm comfortable with letting townies pick whatever they want, I feel like thats going to lead to the mafia snagging powerful roles and the town overlapping too much in the role selection.
Still this plan cannot work if the people in those positions don't agree to it, so we should be in agreement before the draft order comes out.
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Just checking in to say that I have sent in my numbers and at the moment, I have no idea which role(s) I'd pick.
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Checking used roles doesn't really work. All mafia has to do if they're in the top 5 or whatever is pick a role that's really beneficial to them. Then they have their buddy that picks last take the role that they were supposed to take. Now if you check if the role went off....well it did.
Unless you want to assign check-picks to numbers 15-20 or something like that.
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United States22154 Posts
On May 14 2011 10:54 Scamp wrote:
Checking used roles doesn't really work. All mafia has to do if they're in the top 5 or whatever is pick a role that's really beneficial to them. Then they have their buddy that picks last take the role that they were supposed to take. Now if you check if the role went off....well it did.
Unless you want to assign check-picks to numbers 15-20 or something like that.
No, we don't want check-picks, those would saddle us with 5 more vanilas for no tangible benefit.
I think I'm missing your point though, lets say mafia lands on 8 and 8 is assigned to pick PoD, and he does not and his buddy at 25 does instead, then if the PoD goes of we lynch 8 and get a mafia, who has a different role, but is still scum, I don't see the flaw in that. I think I may be misunderstanding your post though...
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No, you're not misunderstanding my post but how you came up with that example is beyond me.
Unless all roles, when used, also show who used them. Which I don't think they do.
The only flaw otherwise is if the buddy gets killed.
And the check-picks was a joke. But at least I know you got it.
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United States22154 Posts
On May 14 2011 11:13 Scamp wrote:
No, you're not misunderstanding my post but how you came up with that example is beyond me.
Unless all roles, when used, also show who used them. Which I don't think they do.
The only flaw otherwise is if the buddy gets killed.
And the check-picks was a joke. But at least I know you got it.
Thats the thing, I picked powers that are obvious when used, if a vote rigger acts we know because the lead person didn't get lynched, if the PoD acts we know because the night is doubled, if the thief acts we know because someone claims they got vanillaized. I the GF acts we know because the mafia count jumps up unexpectedly
Thus if the town agrees to follow the plan then those roles will be guaranteed to be in those slots, since people agreed to do it, and if the roles are used we know the people in those slots are responsible for the usage of the power. If a person lies about following this plan they deserve what they have coming, and will die if the mafia uses the power, since they will be held responsible.
Does my plan make more sense now? Its essentially a way to nullify the one shot visible anti-town roles.
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United States22154 Posts
Oh, and I forgot, but the janitor *really* needs to be on that list, I forgot that it was in the game, but its insanely anti-town...
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Isn't it a little early to be arguing over role distribution? Right now, everyone is just picking numbers and reading over the role descriptions. If anything, we shouldn't be sharing too much information over roles or numbers, so that the Mafia has as little information as possible and can't manipulate the draft order to get (or worse, get assigned) a specific position/role.
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United States22154 Posts
On May 14 2011 11:35 dreamflower wrote:
Isn't it a little early to be arguing over role distribution? Right now, everyone is just picking numbers and reading over the role descriptions. If anything, we shouldn't be sharing too much information over roles or numbers, so that the Mafia has as little information as possible and can't manipulate the draft order to get (or worse, get assigned) a specific position/role.
The thing with my denial plan is it shouldn't matter if mafia or town lands the role, and my fear is that if I wait till the draft order comes out the players in those positions will oppose it simply because they feel like those roles wouldn't be as much "fun" as the alternatives. However if you think it wise to wait to discuss it I suppose I can be agreeable to that. Also there has been no discussion of what numbers are being picked, and I want it to remain that way, as this way we increase clashes and disrupt the mafia, which can only be good for the town.
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While your plan does make more sense now, there are simply way too many factors for the plan to work in my eyes.
Furthermore, it seems to me like it'd be even easier for the mafia to direct the town. If the position at #8 does get revealed, now everyone has to focus on that person unless you want to lynch the hero of the town.
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I really really want the bus driver role. I can bug him until I get what I want! Do you guys realize how quick it is to fill up an inbox with 100+ messages when you use an automator?
I will bus myself again. >
+ Show Spoiler +jkjk, happy birthday! I do want bus driver though.
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On May 14 2011 10:36 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 10:25 Ace wrote:On May 14 2011 10:17 GMarshal wrote:On May 14 2011 10:12 Ace wrote:On May 14 2011 10:06 GMarshal wrote:On May 14 2011 10:05 Ace wrote:
here we go again. Assigning roles before people pick. Disaster incoming. Where exactly does this cause "disaster" to me it looks like it causes accountability for anti-town roles and only for anti-town roles. Can you explain why its a bad idea? I'd really love to hear your input on this. accountability? lol did you read the last 3 PYP games? Yes, yes I did, I fail to see your point, if we know who has the PoD and we go into a double night then we vigi shoot him right off the bat, or lynch him if that isn't an option... Same with the other roles, assuming the plan is actually followed where is the flaw? And if its not followed what do you propose? Everyone picks whatever they want? I feel like thats going to end with the mafia holding enough powerful roles to roll over us by denying lynches/converting people. 1.) Can't know if your "assigned" roles went to the right person. 2.) Won't know if the role went to town or mafia For the chance of tying a few people to roles and not alignment you'll be giving Scum information on where the roles went. Lets not forget that unlike any other PYP game the amount of killing roles in this game are pretty high. 1.) *if* we agree to follow the plan then we will, because if they are town they will pick them, in the interest of benefiting the town, and if they are scum they don't want to be caught at a lie. And we'll be able to tell if the power was picked earlier since the person picking it will get vanilla. However I agree that this might be a weakness of the plan, is there any way to remedy it? 2.) It wont matter, if they are town they will never use the role, if they are mafia we will know if it is used, and will be able to kill them for it, thats the reason for assigning the activated anti-town roles to these players, rather than passive anti-town roles, its *really* easy to tell if they've been used. On these people being killed by the mafia, then those anti-town roles are out of the game, rather than power roles, I dont see the issue with them being focused down. I can't say I'm comfortable with letting townies pick whatever they want, I feel like thats going to lead to the mafia snagging powerful roles and the town overlapping too much in the role selection. Still this plan cannot work if the people in those positions don't agree to it, so we should be in agreement before the draft order comes out.
I fell asleep reading this
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On May 14 2011 12:07 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 10:36 GMarshal wrote:On May 14 2011 10:25 Ace wrote:On May 14 2011 10:17 GMarshal wrote:On May 14 2011 10:12 Ace wrote:On May 14 2011 10:06 GMarshal wrote:On May 14 2011 10:05 Ace wrote:
here we go again. Assigning roles before people pick. Disaster incoming. Where exactly does this cause "disaster" to me it looks like it causes accountability for anti-town roles and only for anti-town roles. Can you explain why its a bad idea? I'd really love to hear your input on this. accountability? lol did you read the last 3 PYP games? Yes, yes I did, I fail to see your point, if we know who has the PoD and we go into a double night then we vigi shoot him right off the bat, or lynch him if that isn't an option... Same with the other roles, assuming the plan is actually followed where is the flaw? And if its not followed what do you propose? Everyone picks whatever they want? I feel like thats going to end with the mafia holding enough powerful roles to roll over us by denying lynches/converting people. 1.) Can't know if your "assigned" roles went to the right person. 2.) Won't know if the role went to town or mafia For the chance of tying a few people to roles and not alignment you'll be giving Scum information on where the roles went. Lets not forget that unlike any other PYP game the amount of killing roles in this game are pretty high. 1.) *if* we agree to follow the plan then we will, because if they are town they will pick them, in the interest of benefiting the town, and if they are scum they don't want to be caught at a lie. And we'll be able to tell if the power was picked earlier since the person picking it will get vanilla. However I agree that this might be a weakness of the plan, is there any way to remedy it? 2.) It wont matter, if they are town they will never use the role, if they are mafia we will know if it is used, and will be able to kill them for it, thats the reason for assigning the activated anti-town roles to these players, rather than passive anti-town roles, its *really* easy to tell if they've been used. On these people being killed by the mafia, then those anti-town roles are out of the game, rather than power roles, I dont see the issue with them being focused down. I can't say I'm comfortable with letting townies pick whatever they want, I feel like thats going to lead to the mafia snagging powerful roles and the town overlapping too much in the role selection. Still this plan cannot work if the people in those positions don't agree to it, so we should be in agreement before the draft order comes out. I fell asleep reading this
Cool story bro.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On May 14 2011 12:07 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 10:36 GMarshal wrote:On May 14 2011 10:25 Ace wrote:On May 14 2011 10:17 GMarshal wrote:On May 14 2011 10:12 Ace wrote:On May 14 2011 10:06 GMarshal wrote:On May 14 2011 10:05 Ace wrote:
here we go again. Assigning roles before people pick. Disaster incoming. Where exactly does this cause "disaster" to me it looks like it causes accountability for anti-town roles and only for anti-town roles. Can you explain why its a bad idea? I'd really love to hear your input on this. accountability? lol did you read the last 3 PYP games? Yes, yes I did, I fail to see your point, if we know who has the PoD and we go into a double night then we vigi shoot him right off the bat, or lynch him if that isn't an option... Same with the other roles, assuming the plan is actually followed where is the flaw? And if its not followed what do you propose? Everyone picks whatever they want? I feel like thats going to end with the mafia holding enough powerful roles to roll over us by denying lynches/converting people. 1.) Can't know if your "assigned" roles went to the right person. 2.) Won't know if the role went to town or mafia For the chance of tying a few people to roles and not alignment you'll be giving Scum information on where the roles went. Lets not forget that unlike any other PYP game the amount of killing roles in this game are pretty high. 1.) *if* we agree to follow the plan then we will, because if they are town they will pick them, in the interest of benefiting the town, and if they are scum they don't want to be caught at a lie. And we'll be able to tell if the power was picked earlier since the person picking it will get vanilla. However I agree that this might be a weakness of the plan, is there any way to remedy it? 2.) It wont matter, if they are town they will never use the role, if they are mafia we will know if it is used, and will be able to kill them for it, thats the reason for assigning the activated anti-town roles to these players, rather than passive anti-town roles, its *really* easy to tell if they've been used. On these people being killed by the mafia, then those anti-town roles are out of the game, rather than power roles, I dont see the issue with them being focused down. I can't say I'm comfortable with letting townies pick whatever they want, I feel like thats going to lead to the mafia snagging powerful roles and the town overlapping too much in the role selection. Still this plan cannot work if the people in those positions don't agree to it, so we should be in agreement before the draft order comes out. I fell asleep reading this
Don't mind Ace. Its normal for people to start to get senile at his age.
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Nice, let's go a trucking.
Instead of making a fail list, let's try to breakdown the strongest roles and see if there is any do or die stuff. There are way too many good roles to check everything, so I think we should consider town combos that would be difficult for mafia to circumvent, and mafia combos that will make it difficult for town.
Also if someone threw together a list in order of strongest to weakest roles, I'd love to see it. I meant to do that earlier but I blew it off ;P I'll start going through them now. Its best to just STFU about your numbers and then announce them after. PYP3 taught me that even people shouting "[1][1]!!!1!1!" helps scum. I guess you can consider it mindgames to them but I think it's ultimately pointless.
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*nods in agreement with bum's post*
I'm not doing any work though. I feel like relaxing this game.
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HEY GUYS! I'm Chezinu!
AND I JUST FINISHED MY LAST FINAL EXAM LESS THAN 3 HOURS AGO!!!!
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you feel like relaxing every game ace
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On May 14 2011 12:43 chaoser wrote:
you feel like relaxing every game ace
HES POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS! OBV SCUM!
...ok not really :/
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
This kinda takes the fun out of it, but would everyone agree if it was possible, determining the draft order by randomly assigning numbers would benefit town as it removes the mafia advantage of preventing clashing?
The only problems would be:
1) Coming up with a fair system to "randomly" generate the numbers. I'm sure we could come up with some system that takes a future event like the length of the 1st GSL finals game mod 25 to generate the order.
2) Everyone has to agree to using the random numbers. However, since the draft order is public, we will be able to narrow down who submitted the wrong numbers.
Thoughts?
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EPT
