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We wont need to:
+ Show Spoiler +*note: There is a new rule in place. In the event that your first AND second numbers clash with another player you both go straight to the bottom of the order. So if 3 players picked [4][1], [4][1] and [4][7] the 2 players with [4][1] are bumped below the player that picked [4][7] along with the original bump. All in All the most unique number combination gets priority.
Simple right? Of course this is all done to support epic mind traps between Scum and Town for picking #s. Remember once this phase is done you will know the draft order publicly. You just wont know who picked what and what roles got picked ^_^.
We'll know the draft order publically, ie, everyone will know who got first pick. Inventor will almost certainly be the first role taken.
A question: if you got turned into vanilla, is it a good idea to claim? it would mean that that role is confirmed in the game, which would make a serious difference to town play if you claimed to try to get traitor or politician or something.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On May 14 2011 13:16 tnkted wrote:
We'll know the draft order publically, ie, everyone will know who got first pick. Inventor will almost certainly be the first role taken.
I mean using random numbers to determine who gets first pick, second pick, ect.
On May 14 2011 13:16 tnkted wrote:
A question: if you got turned into vanilla, is it a good idea to claim? it would mean that that role is confirmed in the game, which would make a serious difference to town play if you claimed to try to get traitor or politician or something.
Generally no, unless you have good reason to.
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Town roles
Bad Santa
Emperor
Priest
Kingmaker
Bodyguard
Assassin
Bullet Bill
Mafia 2 Detective
Mafia roles
Hero
Janitor
Thief
Journalist
Role Reverser
Hider
Bus Driver
Vote Rigger
Politician
Mafia XII Godfather
Caller Godfather
Pardoner
Prince o Darkness
Roleblocker
Agent of Chaos
I didn't include things that would be ovbiously strong for both parties. I picked things that I feel would favor that faction over the other one. For instance, a town bad santa can be game breaking, but that it isn't to say that a mafia one wouldn't be strong as well. Faking a "confirmed town list" could be deadly, but it's all negated if that bad santa dies. And I personally feel like the journalist can be pretty good for mafia, but absolutely useless for town. If anyone has any critique of this list or doesn't understand why I put them there, please tell me.
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United States22154 Posts
Fair enough, we can do that, I am now making a post breaking down the roles into five categories, KP role, Information Roles, Hit Blocking/retribution, Anti-Town and Miscellaneous
I also ranked them in order of perceived usefulness, 1 being the most useful. I'll discuss role synergies in a later post, some roles fall into multiple categories, I rated everything with two numbers, A Threat rating and a town power , the red number is how good it is for the mafia, the other how good it is for the town.
+ Show Spoiler [KP Roles] +
71 America - repeated shot day-vig, in the hands of the town almost as good as a double lynch every day, much potential to cause harm, but since its obvious who is using it its not too bad for us in the hands of the mafia
2 2CPR Doctor - a quirky compulsive vigilante
4 3Kingmaker - distributes out kills, like America huge potential for destruction, although not as good as nukes, and is slightly better for the mafia
5 4 Vigilante - 2 night KP
9 5 Chuiu Jack - 1 vigi shot, more useful than the day vigi, more dangerous too
1 6 Assassin - devastating in the hands of the mafia, as they can always guess town aligned and be right, since the ability is anonymous it is a free kp for the mafia every day, while in the hands of the town it is much less powerful, better then the day vigi because it is unable to kill innocents
10 7 Capitalist - 1 kill, role checks could be nice for either side, but not terribly useful
11 8Emperor -chooses a day 1 lynch, thats one KP, not a real must have though... double lynch is nice I guess
12 9Day Vigilante - 1 revealed KP
3 10 Bad Santa - Really powerful in the hands of the mafia, not so much in the hands of the town, in the hands of the mafia it equates two extra kills, in the hands of the town its pretty bad
6 11 Vote Rigger - 1 kp in the form of controlling the lynch, denies the town its own KP, it contains a double lynch which is good for the town
9 12Admiral Ackbar - huge destructive potential, if the mafia need to break a medic protect you can count on them using this.
10 13 Suicide Bomber - like the AA except only works at night, potentially destructive
14 14 Mad Hatter - subjective kp, not worrisome in the hands of the mafia, might be ok in the hands of the town
13 15Mafia 4 Hatter - like the mad hatter, except that it can suicide, 1 suicidal KP I guess
5-7? 9-10?Bomber Man - this role is too quirky to be considered too powerful, but it could unleash destruction if used correctly, I'm not sure of how to rank it.
3? 3?Hooker - interesting mechanic, a delayed set of KP, not sure how to treat it to be honest, its like compulsive vigi almost tentative ratings of 3/3
That was KP, working on the rest of the sets now, this will probably take some time
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I picked [1.5][0.5]. Am i doing it right?
...or we can get down to business: Node.
On May 14 2011 09:19 Node wrote:
Role received.
DUN DUN DUUUUUNNNNNNNNN
Cool story. What role did you get?
On May 14 2011 10:19 Node wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 09:58 GMarshal wrote:Alright, discussion time it is, before we start I want to preface this with something I picked up in PYP3 On December 30 2010 16:32 Qatol wrote:
The town wants overlaps so the mafia are either forced into early positions/ roles they cannot use effectively without becoming suspicious or positions later in the draft where the mafia cannot be sure their desired roles will be available.
so, whatever you do, don't claim your numbers, we want to throw the mafia off, the last thing we want them is to be able to take two kp roles or something like that. Onto GM's Mafia Power denial plan. In this game there are several powers that are really, really anti town, and rather powerful, the GF's, the PoD and such. The easiest way to counter these powers is to know who has them, that way we avoid their usage by having someone responsible for them. For this reason I have created a draft of the most "anti-town" roles in the game and assigned numbers to pick them. If your number in the draft order coincides with this power then you *must* pick it, so we can control what roles the mafia has. 1-5- KP roles, America/CPR doc/inventor or roles you know you can use effectively (pupeteer, etc) I also advise that the MethMan be picked up there to encourage the mafia to not shoot into those roles. Position 6- Theif. We dont want the mafia to have this, since its even more anti-town than copycat in mafia hands, as it allows them to deny us a role and gain a powerful role. 7- Caller Godfather- since its extremely anti town and essentially adds a traitor to our ranks, its not something I want to worry about 8- PoD- again extremely anti town, lets deny its usage shall we? 9- vote rigger, like a pardoner on steroids, if a pardoner pardons we just lynch him, we have no way of catching the rigger, this way we know who he is from here on down people should choose what they feel they can use effectively and to the benefit of the town. By following this plan we eliminate the threat of 4 worrisome roles that can really hurt the town. This needs some refinement naturally, but it seems to me like a decent start. Also if any of these roles have been taken we know that the mafia is somewhere in the top five and *really* wants whatever role it is they took, thus we can focus our search on those Pardoner dosn't worry me as he must out himself to use his power and is then guaranteed to be made a pincushion by our vigis and other killing roles, and the threat of the copycat is nullified as long as we lynch someone low on the list. Just my initial thoughts, comments? I question whether it's a good idea to specifically deny the mafia powerful roles. There are certainly a few roles that would be extraordinarily powerful in the hands of the mafia, but there are enough good-to-very strong roles that if they didn't feel comfortable picking top-tier they could just go elsewhere. In addition, there's the more "quirky" roles where a well-executed tactic could be disastrous (for instance, check out the synergy between the mason and the agent of chaos) but difficult to predict and deny. I'd rather see the town prioritize the roles that would be really powerful in the hands of the town. For instance, the Assassin could basically be used as an alignment-checking DT that kills mafia when they find them. There's very little risk in having the role going to a townie. Other potentially good town roles include Cupid, Priest, and Jailkeeper. I haven't extensively gone into any other possibilities, but there's definitely good stuff out there.
Node's ideas are wrong, and wrong in a way that benefits mafia.
Mafia wants to get the powerful roles, and the will try to get them. Anything beyond this is WIFOM. We can build a list of roles that the mafia will likely try to obtain, and have town go after those roles. If a townie and a mafia try to get the same role, town wins: The ratio of mafia to townies is 1/4, so if we send one townie to block a role that the mafia want, we only allocate 1/4 of the manpower that the mafia has to in order to try for the role, and they have no better chance of getting that power than the townie does.
This is very similar to the reason that 1-1 trades work well.
I'm not saying that we should not go for pro-town roles, but that we need to also go for anti town roles. We have a manpower advantage over the mafia, and we should utilize it.
Compound this with the fact that node states his opinions very tentatively, and you've got yourself an FOS: node.
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List of invisible posters:
GMarshal
Kitaman27
tnkted
Bum's post is on spot. Fortunately, I already mapped out some stuff.
PYP Insane Game Plan
The optimal picking strategy revolves around this cute little role: Thief
You have the ability to steal the role of a specific player one time per game at night, meaning they lose their role and become vanilla, while you gain it. If you steal from a vanilla player, nothing happens to them and you gain nothing. You cannot steal the role of a traitor or mole. Neither you nor they may not use their role the cycle you steal from them. The following cycle after you steal you can use their role freely with the same limits taken from them. For example if the vote rigger already used his double lynch before you stole it, you will not be able to use it.
This role obsoletes the PYP1 and PYP3 role picking strategies. The mere existence of the thief on the role list means that it would be seriously harmful for mafia to know where the good roles are. Of course, it’s a no brainer that the good roles are in the beginning part of the list. So my only advice is that if you’re in the beginning of the list, seriously consider picking a role such as NRA member or Meth Man to deter the mafia from hitting/stealing roles from the top of the list.
Due to the fact that the mafia can coordinate numbers with each other while the town can’t, it is very likely that mafia will get a spot within the top 3. As shown by the past PYP games, mafia has gotten the first or second spot in all 3 games. Which means town will likely have to be on the defensive, as it is hard to guarantee that we can effectively deny mafia the thief role.
The amount of potential KP in this game is huge. This means that there is a huge potential for the game to end quickly. The basic town strategy should be to avoid KP roles, while going heavy on investigative and defensive roles to try to prolong the game.
Tier I Roles
Mafia 2 Detective + Vote Rigger
Inventor
Chuiu Jack
Modern Detective
Role Cop
Bullet Bill
PYP3 Veteran
Doctor
Bulletproof
Mafia 2 Detective combined with the Vote Rigger is a combo that allows us to break up the town into chunks and analyze with greater ease. The formula is simple. The Vote Rigger rigs the Day 1 Vote into 4 roughly equal blocks with 7, 6, 6, and 5 voters each. All the lurkers/suspicious people are piled onto one list, and the Modern Detective uses his vote check to check one vote block each day, starting with the lurkers. Town then proceeds to analyze the split lists, allowing for more focused analyses. The rest of the investigative roles are used to sort through the lists, while the defensive roles prolong the game and squeeze the mafia.
The Mafia will want these roles
Kingmaker + Politician
Thief
Caller Godfather
Roleblocker
Janitor
JailKeeper
Puppeteer
Hero
PYP3 Veteran
NRA Member
CPR Doctor
The best mafia combo pick is Kingmaker + Politician. This effectively gives mafia an unlimited anonymous unblockable dayvig power, capable of sniping off all the top town players. Caller Godfather is also an obvious mafia role. As anyone who’s read Caller’s Mafia V knows, Godfather recruiting high level townies with good roles is a town’s worst nightmare. Denying this role is iffy, as a mafia thief has plenty of time to try to find the role and steal it before it can actually be of use. Jailkeeper, roleblocker, and NRA member are powerful roles for the mafia that prevent investigations, and potentially save mafia from NKs. Hero and PYP 3 veteran cause town pain when mafia slip out of lynches and snipe off a townie. Lastly, puppeteer is surprisingly useful for a good mafia arguer, as it allows them to anonymously mislead town and cause tons of chaos in the thread. However, the most critical roles that we need to deny are the Thief, Politician, Jailkeeper, and Roleblocker. Due to the threat of a mafia thief, we can’t discuss precise strategy here, but townies should strongly consider picking one of these 4 roles.
By the way KillerSOS is mafia.
Also Node is mafia.
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Whoops I meant only KillerSOS is mafia. Node is fine. For now.
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2 FoSs and an outright mafia declaration and the day barely started. Not to mention Kavdragon's "Node posted tentatively" (what?)
Yup, I'm going to sleep.
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I hadn't thought of vote rigger + mafia 2 detective. I didn't realize that vote rigger was that strong lol, he can basically decide the lynch?
And politician and kingmaker, I like the way you think inco 
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On May 14 2011 13:21 bumatlarge wrote:
Town roles
Bad Santa
Emperor - Do NOT pick this role. At best, its weak role. At worst, it destroys our ability to use the vote rigger/Mafia 2 Detective combo day 1. If anyone picks this role, that is an auto-sign of anti-town. I mean, this role isn't that fun anyway, I don't know why you'd want it.
Priest - Due to the setup, this isn't a strong role. This game has a ton of potential for high KP, which makes resurrected townies less valuable. I'd rather have protective roles. Secondly, with high KP being thrown around, the chance that the priest dies before being able to resurrect is high
Kingmaker - As I noted in my previous post, this is a strong mafia role. In town's hands, its mediocre at best. The kingmaker has to give it to townies, which could be hard as the game goes on (can't give it to someone twice unless everyone is cycled through, which means the chance of mafia getting it is higher as time goes on.)
Bodyguard
Assassin
Bullet Bill
Mafia 2 Detective
Mafia roles
Hero
Janitor
Thief
Journalist
Role Reverser
Hider - Infinitely less powerfull than PYP3 veteran, jailkeeper, or bulletproof
Bus Driver
Vote Rigger Useful for the mafia, but not top priority for them. Unless they want to stop our strategy
Politician
Mafia XII Godfather - Too weak for mafia, as there are better options
Caller Godfather
Pardoner
Prince o Darkness
Roleblocker
Agent of Chaos - The role is only useful if recruiting mason is picked. Mafia won't pick this because if town doesn't pick recruiting mason, this role is useless. They have much better options. Town shouldn't pick this role anyway though.
I didn't include things that would be ovbiously strong for both parties. I picked things that I feel would favor that faction over the other one. For instance, a town bad santa can be game breaking, but that it isn't to say that a mafia one wouldn't be strong as well. Faking a "confirmed town list" could be deadly, but it's all negated if that bad santa dies. And I personally feel like the journalist can be pretty good for mafia, but absolutely useless for town. If anyone has any critique of this list or doesn't understand why I put them there, please tell me.
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United States22154 Posts
Frag, this is what I get for not reading carefully, I assumed the vote rigger simply determined the lynch result, not that it controlled everyones votes. If thats how it works then that is an absurdly broken combination. I like it, its going to put the mafia in a rough spot by day 3 if we can make it work.
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So how do we ensure we get vote rigger+Mafia 2 DT, and don't let mafia get both of politician and kingmaker?
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That was the most random accusation I've ever seen.
Care to elaborate?
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On May 14 2011 13:28 Kavdragon wrote:I picked [1.5][0.5]. Am i doing it right? ...or we can get down to business: Node. Cool story. What role did you get? Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 10:19 Node wrote:On May 14 2011 09:58 GMarshal wrote:Alright, discussion time it is, before we start I want to preface this with something I picked up in PYP3 On December 30 2010 16:32 Qatol wrote:
The town wants overlaps so the mafia are either forced into early positions/ roles they cannot use effectively without becoming suspicious or positions later in the draft where the mafia cannot be sure their desired roles will be available.
so, whatever you do, don't claim your numbers, we want to throw the mafia off, the last thing we want them is to be able to take two kp roles or something like that. Onto GM's Mafia Power denial plan. In this game there are several powers that are really, really anti town, and rather powerful, the GF's, the PoD and such. The easiest way to counter these powers is to know who has them, that way we avoid their usage by having someone responsible for them. For this reason I have created a draft of the most "anti-town" roles in the game and assigned numbers to pick them. If your number in the draft order coincides with this power then you *must* pick it, so we can control what roles the mafia has. 1-5- KP roles, America/CPR doc/inventor or roles you know you can use effectively (pupeteer, etc) I also advise that the MethMan be picked up there to encourage the mafia to not shoot into those roles. Position 6- Theif. We dont want the mafia to have this, since its even more anti-town than copycat in mafia hands, as it allows them to deny us a role and gain a powerful role. 7- Caller Godfather- since its extremely anti town and essentially adds a traitor to our ranks, its not something I want to worry about 8- PoD- again extremely anti town, lets deny its usage shall we? 9- vote rigger, like a pardoner on steroids, if a pardoner pardons we just lynch him, we have no way of catching the rigger, this way we know who he is from here on down people should choose what they feel they can use effectively and to the benefit of the town. By following this plan we eliminate the threat of 4 worrisome roles that can really hurt the town. This needs some refinement naturally, but it seems to me like a decent start. Also if any of these roles have been taken we know that the mafia is somewhere in the top five and *really* wants whatever role it is they took, thus we can focus our search on those Pardoner dosn't worry me as he must out himself to use his power and is then guaranteed to be made a pincushion by our vigis and other killing roles, and the threat of the copycat is nullified as long as we lynch someone low on the list. Just my initial thoughts, comments? I question whether it's a good idea to specifically deny the mafia powerful roles. There are certainly a few roles that would be extraordinarily powerful in the hands of the mafia, but there are enough good-to-very strong roles that if they didn't feel comfortable picking top-tier they could just go elsewhere. In addition, there's the more "quirky" roles where a well-executed tactic could be disastrous (for instance, check out the synergy between the mason and the agent of chaos) but difficult to predict and deny. I'd rather see the town prioritize the roles that would be really powerful in the hands of the town. For instance, the Assassin could basically be used as an alignment-checking DT that kills mafia when they find them. There's very little risk in having the role going to a townie. Other potentially good town roles include Cupid, Priest, and Jailkeeper. I haven't extensively gone into any other possibilities, but there's definitely good stuff out there. Node's ideas are wrong, and wrong in a way that benefits mafia. Mafia wants to get the powerful roles, and the will try to get them. Anything beyond this is WIFOM. We can build a list of roles that the mafia will likely try to obtain, and have town go after those roles. If a townie and a mafia try to get the same role, town wins: The ratio of mafia to townies is 1/4, so if we send one townie to block a role that the mafia want, we only allocate 1/4 of the manpower that the mafia has to in order to try for the role, and they have no better chance of getting that power than the townie does. This is very similar to the reason that 1-1 trades work well. I'm not saying that we should not go for pro-town roles, but that we need to also go for anti town roles. We have a manpower advantage over the mafia, and we should utilize it. Compound this with the fact that node states his opinions very tentatively, and you've got yourself an FOS: node.
Let me put it this way. There are over twenty roles with the power to kill. There are 7 - 10 (depending on how you define them) with the ability to kill or give somebody else the power to kill every cycle. There are at least 5 roles that are only powerful when used by the mafia. If you think we can realistically keep all of those out of the hands of the mafia, well, there's not much I can do for you. I think the courses that the other PYP games took show that it's pretty hard to make things go according to plan, and those had closer to 25 roles as opposed to the ~65 available here.
Which is why I think it's important that instead of limiting the choices of the mafia (because they have enough choices that it's almost pointless to try aside from a select few really really powerful roles), it would be better to maximize the powers the town would have to work with.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Holy shit Chezinu is playing?
Oh man I like this game.
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I know, right? If this game isn't fun then I'm going to lose all hope in my ability to deduce anything.
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On May 14 2011 14:24 Node wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 13:28 Kavdragon wrote:I picked [1.5][0.5]. Am i doing it right? ...or we can get down to business: Node. On May 14 2011 09:19 Node wrote:
Role received.
DUN DUN DUUUUUNNNNNNNNN Cool story. What role did you get? On May 14 2011 10:19 Node wrote:On May 14 2011 09:58 GMarshal wrote:Alright, discussion time it is, before we start I want to preface this with something I picked up in PYP3 On December 30 2010 16:32 Qatol wrote:
The town wants overlaps so the mafia are either forced into early positions/ roles they cannot use effectively without becoming suspicious or positions later in the draft where the mafia cannot be sure their desired roles will be available.
so, whatever you do, don't claim your numbers, we want to throw the mafia off, the last thing we want them is to be able to take two kp roles or something like that. Onto GM's Mafia Power denial plan. In this game there are several powers that are really, really anti town, and rather powerful, the GF's, the PoD and such. The easiest way to counter these powers is to know who has them, that way we avoid their usage by having someone responsible for them. For this reason I have created a draft of the most "anti-town" roles in the game and assigned numbers to pick them. If your number in the draft order coincides with this power then you *must* pick it, so we can control what roles the mafia has. 1-5- KP roles, America/CPR doc/inventor or roles you know you can use effectively (pupeteer, etc) I also advise that the MethMan be picked up there to encourage the mafia to not shoot into those roles. Position 6- Theif. We dont want the mafia to have this, since its even more anti-town than copycat in mafia hands, as it allows them to deny us a role and gain a powerful role. 7- Caller Godfather- since its extremely anti town and essentially adds a traitor to our ranks, its not something I want to worry about 8- PoD- again extremely anti town, lets deny its usage shall we? 9- vote rigger, like a pardoner on steroids, if a pardoner pardons we just lynch him, we have no way of catching the rigger, this way we know who he is from here on down people should choose what they feel they can use effectively and to the benefit of the town. By following this plan we eliminate the threat of 4 worrisome roles that can really hurt the town. This needs some refinement naturally, but it seems to me like a decent start. Also if any of these roles have been taken we know that the mafia is somewhere in the top five and *really* wants whatever role it is they took, thus we can focus our search on those Pardoner dosn't worry me as he must out himself to use his power and is then guaranteed to be made a pincushion by our vigis and other killing roles, and the threat of the copycat is nullified as long as we lynch someone low on the list. Just my initial thoughts, comments? I question whether it's a good idea to specifically deny the mafia powerful roles. There are certainly a few roles that would be extraordinarily powerful in the hands of the mafia, but there are enough good-to-very strong roles that if they didn't feel comfortable picking top-tier they could just go elsewhere. In addition, there's the more "quirky" roles where a well-executed tactic could be disastrous (for instance, check out the synergy between the mason and the agent of chaos) but difficult to predict and deny. I'd rather see the town prioritize the roles that would be really powerful in the hands of the town. For instance, the Assassin could basically be used as an alignment-checking DT that kills mafia when they find them. There's very little risk in having the role going to a townie. Other potentially good town roles include Cupid, Priest, and Jailkeeper. I haven't extensively gone into any other possibilities, but there's definitely good stuff out there. Node's ideas are wrong, and wrong in a way that benefits mafia. Mafia wants to get the powerful roles, and the will try to get them. Anything beyond this is WIFOM. We can build a list of roles that the mafia will likely try to obtain, and have town go after those roles. If a townie and a mafia try to get the same role, town wins: The ratio of mafia to townies is 1/4, so if we send one townie to block a role that the mafia want, we only allocate 1/4 of the manpower that the mafia has to in order to try for the role, and they have no better chance of getting that power than the townie does. This is very similar to the reason that 1-1 trades work well. I'm not saying that we should not go for pro-town roles, but that we need to also go for anti town roles. We have a manpower advantage over the mafia, and we should utilize it. Compound this with the fact that node states his opinions very tentatively, and you've got yourself an FOS: node. Let me put it this way. There are over twenty roles with the power to kill. There are 7 - 10 (depending on how you define them) with the ability to kill or give somebody else the power to kill every cycle. There are at least 5 roles that are only powerful when used by the mafia. If you think we can realistically keep all of those out of the hands of the mafia, well, there's not much I can do for you. I think the courses that the other PYP games took show that it's pretty hard to make things go according to plan, and those had closer to 25 roles as opposed to the ~65 available here. Which is why I think it's important that instead of limiting the choices of the mafia (because they have enough choices that it's almost pointless to try aside from a select few really really powerful roles), it would be better to maximize the powers the town would have to work with.
That's what GMarshal is suggesting though. Of course we arn't going to be able to counter every move by the mafia. But there are those roles that are especially good for the mafia, and we need to try to deny them. KP roles may be good for the mafia, but they aren't the best. I'm talking about PoD, janitor, etc...
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United States2186 Posts
On May 14 2011 14:40 flamewheel wrote:
Holy shit Chezinu is playing?
Oh man I like this game.
On May 14 2011 15:20 Scamp wrote:
I know, right? If this game isn't fun then I'm going to lose all hope in my ability to deduce anything.
Die Spam!!! (Aka warning)
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I am so invisible that Incognito did not even mention me in his post!
Hello of course on Day1,hope we will have a lot fun from now on
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
OK, first off, why are people throwing accusations around? If you're suspicious of someone, sit on that and build a body of evidence until we can at least do something with it. An accusation at this point either puts a careless mafia on their gaurd, or throws a townie off his game. We need to be discussing roles and the drafting phase right now, not using our time to accuse/deny(not that this is really what's happening yet)
Kitaman, any plan to try and assign numbers to people is a poor plan. The best way to let things fall somewhat random is to let everyone send in their numbers blind. Of course this gives the mafia an advantage (they are slightly less blind) but any attempt to assign numbers helps mafia more than town.
However, we absolutely want to identify which Mafia roles are most powerful, and which roles are worth denying. And we absolutely want to discuss that today, BEFORE the draft list comes out. Once the draft list comes out, then mafia have more chance to argue to assign anti-town roles into their own hands. So lets have this discussion now.
+ Show Spoiler [Incognito's Post] +On May 14 2011 13:30 Incognito wrote:List of invisible posters:GMarshal
Kitaman27
tnktedBum's post is on spot. Fortunately, I already mapped out some stuff. PYP Insane Game Plan The optimal picking strategy revolves around this cute little role: Show nested quote +Thief
You have the ability to steal the role of a specific player one time per game at night, meaning they lose their role and become vanilla, while you gain it. If you steal from a vanilla player, nothing happens to them and you gain nothing. You cannot steal the role of a traitor or mole. Neither you nor they may not use their role the cycle you steal from them. The following cycle after you steal you can use their role freely with the same limits taken from them. For example if the vote rigger already used his double lynch before you stole it, you will not be able to use it. This role obsoletes the PYP1 and PYP3 role picking strategies. The mere existence of the thief on the role list means that it would be seriously harmful for mafia to know where the good roles are. Of course, it’s a no brainer that the good roles are in the beginning part of the list. So my only advice is that if you’re in the beginning of the list, seriously consider picking a role such as NRA member or Meth Man to deter the mafia from hitting/stealing roles from the top of the list. Due to the fact that the mafia can coordinate numbers with each other while the town can’t, it is very likely that mafia will get a spot within the top 3. As shown by the past PYP games, mafia has gotten the first or second spot in all 3 games. Which means town will likely have to be on the defensive, as it is hard to guarantee that we can effectively deny mafia the thief role. The amount of potential KP in this game is huge. This means that there is a huge potential for the game to end quickly. The basic town strategy should be to avoid KP roles, while going heavy on investigative and defensive roles to try to prolong the game. Tier I RolesMafia 2 Detective + Vote Rigger Inventor Chuiu Jack Modern Detective Role Cop Bullet Bill PYP3 Veteran Doctor Bulletproof Mafia 2 Detective combined with the Vote Rigger is a combo that allows us to break up the town into chunks and analyze with greater ease. The formula is simple. The Vote Rigger rigs the Day 1 Vote into 4 roughly equal blocks with 7, 6, 6, and 5 voters each. All the lurkers/suspicious people are piled onto one list, and the Modern Detective uses his vote check to check one vote block each day, starting with the lurkers. Town then proceeds to analyze the split lists, allowing for more focused analyses. The rest of the investigative roles are used to sort through the lists, while the defensive roles prolong the game and squeeze the mafia. The Mafia will want these rolesKingmaker + Politician Thief Caller Godfather Roleblocker Janitor JailKeeper Puppeteer Hero PYP3 Veteran NRA Member CPR Doctor The best mafia combo pick is Kingmaker + Politician. This effectively gives mafia an unlimited anonymous unblockable dayvig power, capable of sniping off all the top town players. Caller Godfather is also an obvious mafia role. As anyone who’s read Caller’s Mafia V knows, Godfather recruiting high level townies with good roles is a town’s worst nightmare. Denying this role is iffy, as a mafia thief has plenty of time to try to find the role and steal it before it can actually be of use. Jailkeeper, roleblocker, and NRA member are powerful roles for the mafia that prevent investigations, and potentially save mafia from NKs. Hero and PYP 3 veteran cause town pain when mafia slip out of lynches and snipe off a townie. Lastly, puppeteer is surprisingly useful for a good mafia arguer, as it allows them to anonymously mislead town and cause tons of chaos in the thread. However, the most critical roles that we need to deny are the Thief, Politician, Jailkeeper, and Roleblocker. Due to the threat of a mafia thief, we can’t discuss precise strategy here, but townies should strongly consider picking one of these 4 roles. By the way KillerSOS is mafia. Also Node is mafia.
I agree that thief is absolutely key to any attempt to assign roles. No point assigning mafia roles to certain slots if the thief can just swipe them. Therefore, any attempt to assign roles must begin with the thief at the #1 slot. If the thief attempts to swipe one of the mafia roles from further down the list, presumably the alarm is raised and someone gets lynched. Town will have plenty of KP in this game, so double claimers can much more easily be dealt with than in a regular game. (Making it much less advantageous for mafia to enact silliness)(Keep in mind though, that the journalist is going to be causing counter claims, traitor claims and all sorts of nastiness)
Incog, While your vote-rigger and mafia 2 Detective(M2DT) is a good plan, it hinges on two town players receiving the roles. There is absolutely no way for us to assure this Day 1, and frankly there is very little I would be confident in Day 2 or 3 except my own role checks(which of course no-one else would be confident of). If either of the roles fall into mafia hands, the plan is toast. If town gets both roles, mafia will kill either the VR or the M2DT, and the plan is toast again. A role centered plan like this is far too fragile to focus our investigative efforts on. While it's a good plan, it's not one that i can see working. Also, our goal during the game should not be on a fancy role play, it should be on scum-hunting, which i'm sure you agree with.
I think the only thing we need to focus on right now is which mafia roles are so bad for town, that we should try to assign them. Roles that are really good for us don't need to be discussed that much right now, as they should not be assigned at all. We want to leave those pro-town choices in the hands of townies and deny mafia any extra info. We can make a suggestions list of highly pro-town roles tomorrow after the draft order comes out.
So, what roles are very bad for town? Many have made suggestions already, and some I disagree with, as some roles can be effectively nuetered.
America: This is NOT a scary role. The easiest way to solve the America role is to say this: ANYONE WHO USES THE AMERICA POWER DIES. No pro-town player should be taking this role. We have a glut of other excellent pro-town roles, so there is not need to take this. Having this role in the game makes things only harder for town.
Kingmaker: Again, this is not a scary role. Once again, NO TOWN PLAYER SHOULD TAKE THIS ROLE. However, that doesn't stop the mafia from taking the role and hiding. Therefore, if anyone ever gets made king, they must abide by a majority decision on whom to lynch. So, at the start of the day, whomever is the king declares it, and we treat the day as a double lynch. Failure to lynch with the majority gets you killed, plain and simple. This effectively nueters this roles potential danger in mafia hands. Also, this allows any role cop to instantly identify a mafia if they have this role.
There are far too many anti-town roles to deny them all to the mafia, so the next best thing is to all collectively agree as a town, that certain roles we will not take. In particular, any role that is good as a mafia, but bad as a townie, should not be taken by a town player. Firstly it's a waste of a good potential townie role, and second you're not necessarily denying the mafia anything, since there are so many good mafia roles. Also, by agreeing as a town to not take certain roles, it means if a role cop every finds someone with that role, or if it ever comes to light during the course of the game that someone is a particular role, then we have found a mafia.
I'm proposing that we form a list of roles that will NOT be taken by any town player. Anyone found with one of these roles will be lynched. Roles that are good for mafia, but fairly useless for town are as follows:
NRA Member
Hero
Bomber Man
Rock Star
Emporer
Day vig
Vengeful player
America and Kingmaker (see above)
Zombie
Admiral Ackbar
Pardoner
Cupid
Prince of Darkness
Suicide Bomber
Politician
Agent of Chaos
Roleblocker
Role Reverser
Framer
Copy Cat
Recruiting Mason
Bone Breaker
Puppeteer
Hooker
(this is a rough list, I went through it pretty quickly, but the idea is there, so lets refine it)
The vast majority of these roles are useless in town hands except for denial purposes. Because of this, I see very little likelyhood of the mafia taking these roles. The mafia want to focus on taking roles that are good for them, AND good for town, as this has the effect of giving them a good role, and denying town a good role. Yes this plan allows mafia the pick of this litter for roles, but these are mostly second rate roles for mafia members, and open themselves up to any and all role checks.
Several roles are in fact powerful enough for us to take notice. In particular: Inventor, CPR Doctor, Journalist, Vote Rigger, and Caller GF
Inventor. We absolutely must know where this role is. If pro-mafia inventions start getting thrown around, we need to know where to lynch. Also, a pro-town Inventor should be handing out copious amounts of Bulletproof Vests.
Ver, does whatever get invented during the night show up in the day post like in PYP1?
CPR Doctor basically doubles mafia KP. Not sure how we best use this role, but we want to know where it is.
Journalist will cause all kinds of false claims and couterclaims. Insanely powerful. Knowing where this role is at least allows a town player with a KP role to kill the journalist if the power gets used on them.
Vote Rigger is obviously bad, but by knowing where he/she is we can get an easy lynch if this power gets used.
Caller GF is obviously bad.
I propose we assign these five roles, along with thief, to the first 5 people in order. Yes, some of these roles may end up in mafia hands, but I honestly don't know how we avoid that. At least this way the roles are exposed and far less frightening than if they are allowed to go unknown into the draft. By knowing where these roles are, town gains more power.
Some notes on other roles:
PYP3 Veteran has the ability to survive a lynch. This is a very anti-town power, since if someone gets voted to be lynched, we want that player to get lynched, otherwise town will be wasting time trying to lynch them again. For this reason, I think this role should also go on the No-Pick-List. (Also, having this in the game would allow mafia to take the hero role, and then claim PYP3Vet when they dodged a lynch. Not something we want to happen.)
Bad Santa seems like a scary role, but I don't think it is. It only gives the mafia 1 extra KP during the entire game. This makes it a good role for mafia, but there are plenty of other roles which do the same thing. Also, this role can be effective in town hands as well. The bad santa role effectively won the game for us in PYP2.
Prince of Darkness is also not a scary role. Mafia only have a KP of 1, so once again, this only gives the mafia 1 extra KP. In addition, town will have a ton of night powers(there are 15 investigative powers in the game) so this is as good for town as for mafia.
If you disagree with the ideas in this post, please point out the problems in the general idea, not in the details. Don't nitpick in otherwords, and don't throw the whole plan out because you disagree with some details. If you agree with some of the ideas here, feel free to argue about the details and lets try to refine it
Here is my role list I made before the game started. Some things I have since valued higher or lower, but it's a general breakdown for those who would like to look at it.
+ Show Spoiler [role list breakdown] +
I've organized the list with two numbers, pro-mafia value first, pro-town value second. I'm sure i've mis-valued somethings, but don't quibble with the values unless i'm way off base. This is a general reference only.
List by pro-townitude:
Inventor 5 5
Capitalist (role cop + vig) 5 5
Chuiu Jack 3 5
Modern Detective 2 5
Priest 2 5
Assassin 2 5
NKVD Agent(Alignment Cop) 1 5
Caller Godfather 5 4
PYP 3 Veteran 5 4
Bad Santa 4 4
Vigilante 4 4
Mafia 4 Veteran 3 4
Role Cop 3 4
jailkeeper 3 4
Mafia 2 Detective 2 4
Veteran 2 4
Mad Hatter 2 4
Mafia 4 Hatter 2 4
Bullet Proof 2 4
Bullet Bill 2 4
Witch 2 4
Medic 1 4
Parity Cop 1 4
NRA Member 5 3
Vote Rigger 5 3
Rock Star 4 3
Emperor 4 3
Day Vigilante 4 3
Vengeful Player 4 3
America 4 3
Kingmaker 4 3
Mason 3 3
bus driver 3 3
Hider 2 3
Dirty Cop 2 3
Alignment Cop 1 3
Doctor 1 3
Meth Man 1 3
Watcher 1 3
Hero 5 2
Zombie 4 2
Admiral Ackbar 4 2
Pardoner 4 2
Cupid 4 2
Suicide Bomber 3 2
Politician 3 2
Journalist 3 2
Copy Cat 2 2
Janitor 2 2
Recruiting Mason 2 2
Hooker 1 2
Martyr 1 2
Tracker 1 2
Bodygaurd 1 2
Mafia XII Godfather 5 1
Bomber Man 5 1
Thief 5 1
Prince o Darkness 4 1
CPR Doctor 4 1
Agent of Chaos 3 1
Roleblocker 3 1
Role Reverser 3 1
Framer 3 1
Bone Breaker 2 1
Puppeteer 2 1
Mafia VIII Traitor 1 1
Village Idiot 1 1
Village Idiot 1 1
Clue Detective
Mafia Role List
Inventor 5 5
Capitalist (role cop + vig) 5 5
Caller Godfather 5 4
PYP 3 Veteran 5 4
NRA Member 5 3
Vote Rigger 5 3
Hero 5 2
Mafia XII Godfather 5 1
Bomber Man 5 1
Thief 5 1
Bad Santa 4 4
Vigilante 4 4
Rock Star 4 3
Emperor 4 3
Day Vigilante 4 3
Vengeful Player 4 3
America 4 3
Kingmaker 4 3
Zombie 4 2
Admiral Ackbar 4 2
Pardoner 4 2
Cupid 4 2
Prince o Darkness 4 1
CPR Doctor 4 1
Chuiu Jack 3 5
Mafia 4 Veteran 3 4
Role Cop 3 4
jailkeeper 3 4
Mason 3 3
bus driver 3 3
Suicide Bomber 3 2
Politician 3 2
Journalist 3 2
Agent of Chaos 3 1
Roleblocker 3 1
Role Reverser 3 1
Framer 3 1
Modern Detective 2 5
Priest 2 5
Assassin 2 5
Mafia 2 Detective 2 4
Veteran 2 4
Mad Hatter 2 4
Mafia 4 Hatter 2 4
Bullet Proof 2 4
Bullet Bill 2 4
Witch 2 4
Hider 2 3
Dirty Cop 2 3
Copy Cat 2 2
Janitor 2 2
Recruiting Mason 2 2
Bone Breaker 2 1
Puppeteer 2 1
NKVD Agent(Alignment Cop) 1 5
Medic 1 4
Parity Cop 1 4
Alignment Cop 1 3
Doctor 1 3
Meth Man 1 3
Watcher 1 3
Hooker 1 2
Martyr 1 2
Tracker 1 2
Bodygaurd 1 2
Mafia VIII Traitor 1 1
Village Idiot 1 1
Village Idiot 1 1
Off topic but important!! I'm using chrome, and am having some difficulties. When i click a spoiler tag on someones post, it doesnt open and instead just sends me to the top of the screen. Also, when i try to click the bold or italic or quote button, etc in the reply box, nothing happens. Anyone know how i can fix this? I could use Firefox, which works fine, but it is really slow on my computer. Thanks
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