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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Ver, I'm having a problem with the Journalist role right now. A very effective way for mafia to use this role is to force a player to make false claims. Claims like how you're the role cop and found the PoD, or that your are a DT and found scum.
However, knowing this, i'm going to make sure I ask anyone who makes a claim to repeat themselves. And if they don't adamantly push that what they said is the truth, I'm going to disregard what they said. I realize that a player cannot insinuate they were journalisted in any way, but how far does that go? If a player makes a claim that they are a role cop and found the PoD, but then in their next post waffles as to whether we should lynch that player, is that against the rules? Or if they are a bit too easily convinced of an opposing veiwpoint, or seem to be pushing to focus attention elsewhere?
I guess what I'm saying is that because I know the journalist is in the game, my gut instinct is going to be to push anyone who makes a claim to back themselves up, and really post their feelings. Is this something I should be refraining from doing, or is this a problem for the journalist to make sure they don't force someone to say anything that's too black or white?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
To complete the triple-post hat trick, I just want to stress that the game has absolutely begun. Any players hanging back and waiting for day 1 are doing a disservice to the town. In both PYP 1 and 2 some players decided not to 'start playing' until the draft was over. All players need to be contributing now and furthering the pre-draft discussion.
+ Show Spoiler +Please disregard my off topic note at the end of my big post. If I could edit it out I would.
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Thats kinda the whole point of the journalist role, to have people make fake claims.
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Oh, and to those coming up with picking tactics, I'm noting going to be following them. I'm going to pick whatever I think is most fun, not whats most optimum.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 14 2011 20:24 deconduo wrote:
Oh, and to those coming up with picking tactics, I'm noting going to be following them. I'm going to pick whatever I think is most fun, not whats most optimum.
This argument has been made in past PYP games as well. I can certainly understand where it comes from, no one likes to be dictated to, and the point of mafia is to have fun. However, it's important to note that what you're basically saying is, "No matter if role-denial is a great thing for town, I'm going to do whats best for me". This is of course an anti-town and pro-mafia viewpoint, so I hope you understand that I'll probably view it as such, and may hold it against you as the game goes on. I'm not trying to be a jerk here or anything, just trying to point out how I see that particular viewpoint.
However, if you disagree and think that role-denial is NOT a great thing for the town, that's a different matter, and i encourage you to elaborate(which i'm sure folks some will).
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Some interesting thoughts already, I’ll see if I can add anything.
Regarding the setup: We know there is 6 mafia total, including mules. If we assume there is at least 1 mule, and probably 2, this leaves a mafia team consisting of 4 to 5 members. This put certain limits to the options for mafia with regards to strategy.
One possible mafia strategy is to pick an abundance of killing roles and carpet bomb the town in the hope of finishing the game fast, before detectives can get checks in and town can get reads on people. I don’t think mafia will choose this road, they only have 4-5 members, they don’t know the identity of mules, the plan is highly volatile because of medic saves + veterans, and lack of godfather/framer leaves them vulnerable.
On the other hand, 1 KP is very little in a 25 player game. With this many detective roles, they can’t afford a long drawn out game. It’s in my opinion safe to assume that mafia will aim for at least 1 extra KP role a la CPR doc. Hence it might be worth it to deny them the strongest KP roles, but there is absolutely no reason to assign every KP role. There is quite frankly stronger mafia alternatives.
Lastly I’d like to point to the fact that in every PYP so far the traitor has been picked by a townie. It’s safe to assume someone will be a jackass in this game as well. So we are really looking at a 7 person mafia team.
Regarding number picking, clashes was a great way to divide people in to groups in PYP3. While the randomness usually guarantee mafia a top spot, since they can blanket pick a range of numbers without clashing with each others, it also split the players into small groups with 1 mafia in each nicely (no one picks 4, everyone picks 7, true story).
@radfield
I will follow a plan assigning thief + the very most powerful mafia roles to the top spots, but in PYP3 there was a strong resistance towards following any sort of plan. I disagree with some of your picks on the lynch list, which I think can be fairly ok for a townie, but that is specifics. I’ll hopefully be able to give better feedback once I’ve thought some more of it.
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On May 14 2011 20:57 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 20:24 deconduo wrote:
Oh, and to those coming up with picking tactics, I'm noting going to be following them. I'm going to pick whatever I think is most fun, not whats most optimum. This argument has been made in past PYP games as well. I can certainly understand where it comes from, no one likes to be dictated to, and the point of mafia is to have fun. However, it's important to note that what you're basically saying is, "No matter if role-denial is a great thing for town, I'm going to do whats best for me". This is of course an anti-town and pro-mafia viewpoint, so I hope you understand that I'll probably view it as such, and may hold it against you as the game goes on. I'm not trying to be a jerk here or anything, just trying to point out how I see that particular viewpoint. However, if you disagree and think that role-denial is NOT a great thing for the town, that's a different matter, and i encourage you to elaborate(which i'm sure folks some will).
My viewpoint is that the game starts after the roles have been picked. Any optimum picking strategy or awesome pick setup (like LSB's) just goes against my style of playing. I will be playing pro-town once the picks have gone through.
Regardless, to avoid confrontation I've chosen numbers in a way that I will hopefully be in the middle/end of the draft rather than the start.
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Proposition time! give me slot 1, and i will pick inventor of course. My first invention I will give to the last person on the queue. It will be called batmans vigilance. That night chosen guy will get a list of people visiting him, and they can choose to protect or hit one person from that list. Even if I don't get it, I think first slot should do this anyway. Using first and last slots don't allow for mischievous mafia tactics and we can assure that inventor was picked and we can protect him as well. Mafia would also be wary to hit the last slot, as he would likely take a defensive role. Id like to be inventor cause I literally have ten other roles id like to test. Figured it wouldn't hurt to ask. 
I also think solidifying the draft roles beyond the first three slots is a baaad idea. One traitor giving a "Fuck. You town"
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Oops hit post, better pick editor. I meant that traitor is a highly likely option in the first slots, and it makes denying seem like a less fun pick. Better off making one of the those neat percentage lists radfield.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Honestly, I think the percentage list I made in PYP2 was a poor idea. Me and Incog discussed it in thread at the end of that game, and I think I agree with the points he was making. It's more important for us to make a list of good/great roles for the town and then allow town players to do their own thing. It gives mafia less info, but will still hopefully get a lot of good pro-town roles into the mix.
I think what we want to focus on is a sparing list of roles to deny mafia, and then allow town players to choose at their own discretion.
I'm not actually sure how a traitor throws things off. The goal of assigned roles is to keep them either a) out of mafia hands, or b) in a known location. If someone picks traitor instead of say, Caller GF, then that still very likely keeps the Caller GF role out of mafia hands.(mafia wouldn't want to possibly waste a pick on an assigned role).
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Just saying if im in a top slot and town tellls me to pick a useless role for town just to deny mafia, 90% of the time id pick traitor instead. We should at least look into denying roles that town can use. Certain combos will need further attention, because just denying them won't be enough (kingmaker+politician)
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I don't think this assigning roles plan is a good idea at all. Why? Because everyone at the top of the list is going to be instantly targeted by mafia. Mafia wants to kill the inventor ASAP, they want to kill the politician, they want to kill the dirty cop. Virtually every single role that town would like to grab, whoever is the first townie in line is going to get killed.
This of course means that anyone who survives the first few nights but is in the top 5 is going to be on my shitlist, unless they've survived a hit already or something. Simple reason is this: Scum is going to get in top 5, and scum is going to shoot into top 5, because one of those 5 is going to have inventor, which is by far the most OP role in this game. Especially if you're creative. immune to actions, anyone? cakebomb? free caffemetamine (extra turn at night)? Autoframe? doublekill? the list goes on. Inventor is deadly in the hands of scum and even deadlier in the hands of town.
There has been some talk about a traitor; I hadn't realized this, but bums right. Somebody is certain to be an asshole. If I had to guess, I'd say its probably going to be somebody lower down on the list, who knew he/she wasn't going to be able to get medic, and chose traitor instead.
so when draft order is revealed: medics, if you get your roles, PROTECT THE TOP 5 OR SO.
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On May 15 2011 01:06 tnkted wrote:
I don't think this assigning roles plan is a good idea at all. Why? Because everyone at the top of the list is going to be instantly targeted by mafia. Mafia wants to kill the inventor ASAP, they want to kill the politician, they want to kill the dirty cop. Virtually every single role that town would like to grab, whoever is the first townie in line is going to get killed.
This of course means that anyone who survives the first few nights but is in the top 5 is going to be on my shitlist, unless they've survived a hit already or something. Simple reason is this: Scum is going to get in top 5, and scum is going to shoot into top 5, because one of those 5 is going to have inventor, which is by far the most OP role in this game. Especially if you're creative. immune to actions, anyone? cakebomb? free caffemetamine (extra turn at night)? Autoframe? doublekill? the list goes on. Inventor is deadly in the hands of scum and even deadlier in the hands of town.
There has been some talk about a traitor; I hadn't realized this, but bums right. Somebody is certain to be an asshole. If I had to guess, I'd say its probably going to be somebody lower down on the list, who knew he/she wasn't going to be able to get medic, and chose traitor instead.
so when draft order is revealed: medics, if you get your roles, PROTECT THE TOP 5 OR SO.
Along with this im sure somebody is going to just choose the role they want regardless of the draft order if they know the role is not going to be in high demand anyways.
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On May 04 2011 03:27 Ver wrote:Flamewheel is cohosting with me. Please pm him if you have any questions or concerns.Having cohosting powers make flamewheel extremely powerful this game.Cheating:Cheating includes (but is not limited to): 1. Posting after death. You may have one polite goodbye post, but it may not contain any potentially game-changing information. This suggests zombies and the resurrected dead can not talk.Posting: Question Font:Note: It is bolded green.Activity:You must post in this thread once per every 24 hours and vote every day while you are alive. If you fail to do so, you will be modkilled. If you are obviously trying to skirt the modkill requirement, you will be modkilled. In short, be active, contribute and nobody gets hurt. If you have to miss a 24 hour or more period, please inform me ahead of time and there won't be a problem. If you are really active and you happen to miss a vote, no big deal. This rule is in place to punish those who are not really even in the game. You will be given one warning before any modkill happens. This seems dangerous... Of all the games I have ever played, no one has explained to me how to properly contribute...Hopefully, I'm not skirting around... Seems this rule is to punish those that are not really in the game... How can one modkill one that is not in the game... What does it mean to be in the game..Spam:Spam is not tolerated, nor is any off-topic material. Do not discuss Proleague here. Do not talk about Starcraft II here. Play Mafia here. I will be extremely strict on any spammers. You do not need to have 250-400 posts by night 2. Think before you post and aim for a larger post than 3-5 small ones in succession. If you have a problem with anyone's excessive posting, please pm me and they will be warned. Second infraction gets a modkill. Let's keep this thread readable. This seems dangerous as well. This ties in to contributing.. What is considered spam? This is a tough question. I use to think that meaningless spamming was considered spam. But already in this game, two people got warned for spam praising how awesome I am with only a single post.. which were over an hour apart from eachother... Seems that this is to discourage communication within the game.. interesting..Editing: Editing is not allowed for any reason. Editing will result in a warning. After that, you will be modkilled. This is the one part of the site where it is okay to be double posting if absolutely necessary. While I ask for everybody to post as concisely as possible, post again if you have to edit anything Seems roles over ride this rule. Go go Editor!Play to win. Guys we need to play to win!You have been warned. Warned to play to win? uh oh...Game-specific rules: Clues: There are no clues. This is a myth, there are always clues.PMsPMs are not allowed in this game. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I guess I will have to balance my insanity within the thread.. Definitely trying to discourage communication this game..If you have not read all the rules, go back and do so. I will not compensate for ignorance![green] Uh oh... There is no compensation for my ignorance... even if I read the rules? This game is doomed!!![/green
Step 1: reading the rules -- completed.
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alright, my old joints are still aching up, but it's time for the old fire to come back into this old man's heart. Retirement hopefully hasn't dulled me all that much.
Anyways, things I've noticed so far. I haven't really kept track of many of you new whippersnapper mafia players, but here's what I have seen so far:
GMarshal posts a plan that's so shitty and unrealistic I'm not sure if it's intentionally weak.
Scamp makes bad arguments several times and flipflops more than the waffle I made for breakfast today.
Ace is semi-retired, as usual.
inb4 Chezinu spam.
Bumatlarge somehow has managed to make his posting quality improve since I last saw him. That being said, he doesn't really say anything.
Incognito is being, well, Incognito (huehue)
Radfield is anti-American. I propose we lynch him for patriotic purposes.
Nobody else I really recognize yet so I ignored the rest of your posts with great prejudice.
As for me, what I have to contribute to the current discussion? Nothing, because I think all this bickering about roles is silly.
All we do is cause stupid townies to clump up and try to get the same 5 or 6 roles, which screws us in the long run. Instead of thinking about roles we should immediately be focusing on, which is stupid because the first few roles are going to be a total crapshoot anyways, because it's Nash equilibrium to go [1][1], we should be focusing on roles that people in mid and late queue should take. Doctors/Medic/Bodyguards are a necessary role in this sense to dampen kp, both from mafia as well as overzealous townies or even third parties if there are any. In fact, the more KP dampening we have, the better. Things like NRA member will discourage KP, and we should pick up the medic and martyr too. Jack is also good, as is veteran. Things that punish scum for attacking, things that make scum have to heavily think about their actions, things that force them to WifoM, instead of concentrating on the three or four roles that seem op. One player, regardless of role, isn't going to do jack in this game. I can't wait for someone to be all happy that he got this or that role, and is going to totally pwn all those mafia noobs, only to get blindsided by some random town vig who pops his cap.
tl:dr-bads being bad, also, if you're a mid/low pick, grab anti-kp roles. Mafia has virtually no reason to take them, unless they want to form a medic circlejerk, in which case by all means let them.
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Barundar - The mafia know who the mole(s) are. The moles don't know they're moles or who the mafia are until day 3.
Caller - I dunno how you can call my arguments bad if you think GMarshal's plan is weak. And while I certainly didn't understand some of the intricacies of his plan I certainly didn't flip-flop on anything.
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So, here's a quick list of KP dampening roles:
Chuiu Jack
Caller Veteran
Mafia 4 Veteran
Medic
Doctor
Bullet Proof
Bodyguard
Bus Driver- Arguably, this can be used as a strong protective role for town. If the identity/role of a strong town player becomes known, the bus driver can bus them away from danger. As well, if for whatever reason the identity of the bulletproof player becomes known, the bus driver can bus them around with pro-town players and effectively become a medic.
Also, if we are going to go ahead with any kind of plan which sets certain roles to certain queue positions, they must be solidified before the queue is known. So, if you say: "These five roles go to the first five", you better be giving them a specific order before we have the player-order. This will stop mafia from trying to salvage the roles in any way by asking for certain roles for certain queue positions. I'm not entirely sure at the moment whether assigning roles is good or not, but if you are proposing role-assignments like that, anyone trying to arrange the order after the queue is known will look very suspicious to me, at least.
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Another thing to keep in mind is that the mafia doesn't necessarily have to go for the hyper-agressive, maximize-night-KP-style of play. All of the protection roles in the world won't help us if they go for a setup like Kingmaker, Hero, Politician, Emperor, Vote Rigger, Pardoner. They've got the tools to completely deny us the lynch. Because of this, I'm totally behind just giving town nearly free reign on the roles they think are "cool" -- we need a good mix to make wacky strategies like this more unlikely.
I do think that it's a good idea to "forbid" a select few roles that are blatantly anti-town. However, I don't think it's really necessary to spell these out, since we're all smart enough to know that if Prince o' Darkness is rolechecked we've got scum on our hands.
Also, is there anywhere we can see the numbers people have previously picked for the draft? I looked through the previous OPs, and they have the draft orders, but not the numbers themselves.
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Well the thing about that, is there's 19 town, and from my quick run-through, maybe 7 defensive roles. Now, you can't expect them all to be chosen, but it's in our benefit to at least grab a few of them. This will ensure a good mix as well, because there will still be more than enough town to grab investigative roles, as well as any KP roles we may need.
The thing I'm worried about, is finding a way to prevent role-overlap. It's better for us if mafia overlap, but it's easier for town to overlap. Right now, I'm drawing a blank on ways to prevent town overlap besides complete role-assignment, which I don't think is a good idea. So, if anyone else has ideas for minimizing town overlap, it would be nice if you shared.
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Barundar - The mafia know who the mole(s) are. The moles don't know they're moles or who the mafia are until day 3.
I see, cheers for pointing it out. I think my point still stands, moles + traitor is still some mafia that won't initially aim for mafia power roles, limiting mafia's options.
Assuming 4 mafia, I guess my mafia "dream team" would be caller gf + CPR doc + either incogs kingmaker/politician combo or inventor/thief. Blocking just a few of these would be beneficial for town in my opinion.
On May 15 2011 01:06 tnkted wrote:
I hadn't realized this, but bums right.
I should put "Bum ≠ Barundar" in my sig 
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EPT
