EPTScum wants chaos or a plan. A chaos under control is what they can't foresee.
Pick Your Power Insane! - Page 16
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
Scum wants chaos or a plan. A chaos under control is what they can't foresee. | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
On May 15 2011 04:08 Node wrote: Another thing to keep in mind is that the mafia doesn't necessarily have to go for the hyper-agressive, maximize-night-KP-style of play. All of the protection roles in the world won't help us if they go for a setup like Kingmaker, Hero, Politician, Emperor, Vote Rigger, Pardoner. They've got the tools to completely deny us the lynch. Because of this, I'm totally behind just giving town nearly free reign on the roles they think are "cool" -- we need a good mix to make wacky strategies like this more unlikely. I do think that it's a good idea to "forbid" a select few roles that are blatantly anti-town. However, I don't think it's really necessary to spell these out, since we're all smart enough to know that if Prince o' Darkness is rolechecked we've got scum on our hands. Also, is there anywhere we can see the numbers people have previously picked for the draft? I looked through the previous OPs, and they have the draft orders, but not the numbers themselves. this man is mafia a) wifoms b) totally encourages chaos c) wifoms more d) says one thing and then says another | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
On May 15 2011 04:21 Kurumi wrote: I am not up for any plan. If we choose one,we will have a major problem:they will try to find weakness of it,that's why I think planning has no future,we just need to use common sense (like Node wrote,picking PoD will most likely get You lynched,even if You will be townie) Focusing on KP,anti-KP,lynch roles has it pluses,but when You have A,enemy can have B,which effectively counters A or they just do some-kind of workaround. Scum wants chaos or a plan. A chaos under control is what they can't foresee. Feel like expanding on "chaos under control"? This post feels vaguely WIFOM. I think Radfield had an excellent idea in compiling a list of roles that are good for mafia, bad for town, which should be an automatic lynch. His list was: + Show Spoiler + NRA Member Hero Bomber Man Rock Star Emporer Day vig Vengeful player America and Kingmaker (see above) Zombie Admiral Ackbar Pardoner Cupid Prince of Darkness Suicide Bomber Politician Agent of Chaos Roleblocker Role Reverser Framer Copy Cat Recruiting Mason Bone Breaker Puppeteer Hooker to which I'd like to add: Janitor (why was this not already on there? It denies death information, which is one of the Town's best sources of information.) and remove: Day Vig (This doesn't help Mafia a whole lot, since the kill is very publicized and he can only shoot once, but it can be put to good use by the town, especially against lynch-dodging roles) Copycat (I wouldn't say this is extremely pro-mafia, anti-town. Chance s are, it'll get the role from the Day 1 lynch. Mafia won't get good use out of it if the Day 1 lynch is a pro-town, anti-mafia role.) Also, I don't know why there wasn't more surprise at: On May 14 2011 13:31 Incognito wrote: Whoops I meant only KillerSOS is mafia. KillerSOS's only posts in the thread were very short - that's true. Still, that's not nearly enough for a hard accusation at this point, I think. Elaborate, please? On May 15 2011 01:06 tnkted wrote: This of course means that anyone who survives the first few nights but is in the top 5 is going to be on my shitlist, unless they've survived a hit already or something. Simple reason is this: Scum is going to get in top 5, and scum is going to shoot into top 5, because one of those 5 is going to have inventor, which is by far the most OP role in this game. Especially if you're creative. immune to actions, anyone? cakebomb? free caffemetamine (extra turn at night)? Autoframe? doublekill? the list goes on. Inventor is deadly in the hands of scum and even deadlier in the hands of town. There has been some talk about a traitor; I hadn't realized this, but bums right. Somebody is certain to be an asshole. If I had to guess, I'd say its probably going to be somebody lower down on the list, who knew he/she wasn't going to be able to get medic, and chose traitor instead. so when draft order is revealed: medics, if you get your roles, PROTECT THE TOP 5 OR SO. i'm honestly confused by the combination of these two statements lastly, On May 15 2011 02:57 Caller wrote:tl:dr-bads being bad, also, if you're a mid/low pick, grab anti-kp roles. Mafia has virtually no reason to take them, unless they want to form a medic circlejerk, in which case by all means let them. I agree with this idea regarding mid/low picks. | ||
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
Am I allowed to use the Filter button? (the staff one) | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
The end goal being that we can more effectively counter the mafia's plans, or at the very least, make them wifom about it. I haven't had time to think about it enough to advocate actually coming up with a public plan to set in motion against the mafia, because it otherwise seems to me that mafia could easily manipulate/counter most public plans. But I do think that the town would benefit from that sort of discussion more than mafia would. For instance, My first thought for what I would do as mafia would be to blanket as many of the top spots as I can. For instance, pick 1-4 (or 5, depending on the number of mafia). There' a fair chance that one of those won't be conflicted, so they have a good chance of getting the top pick. (For instance, #4 wasn't conflicted in PYP3, so decon got top pick.) The second idea for me would be less risky, and that would be to pick very high numbers to ensure that there is no conflict between them and others. This would ensure that they all get in above those who conflicted. In PYP3, this would have resulted with the mafia getting the 4th-8/9th picks. With that sort of draft, they could very easily pick up several powerful roles, even if they missed the best ones. Of those two, I think that the latter is more likely, so I think that conflict will be a bad thing for the town. Obviously if we plan for the latter, the former becomes more powerful, and they will likely chose that. Because of this, I don't think that any sort of number theory will be that useful in public. (Though there might be some delicious wifom cake in there somewhere for us to throw at them) But again, the discussion about what mafia would do is not for making a public plan based on it, but to help private plans. Anyone else have ideas on what mafia will try as far as number picking goes? | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Imo the top spots should hog as many as the detective roles as possible, and let the middle pickers take prot roles. Mafia having extra KP isn't that scary if there are many prot + known investigation roles to stop them. In essence everyone could literally role claim and just go down the line forming investigations and without a brutal amount of KP Scum would be powerless to stop it. | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On May 15 2011 04:08 Node wrote: Also, is there anywhere we can see the numbers people have previously picked for the draft? I looked through the previous OPs, and they have the draft orders, but not the numbers themselves. Because I think it'll only add to the wifom within your scum team. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=176529¤tpage=17#340 | ||
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
On May 15 2011 04:21 Kurumi wrote: I am not up for any plan. If we choose one,we will have a major problem:they will try to find weakness of it,that's why I think planning has no future,we just need to use common sense (like Node wrote,picking PoD will most likely get You lynched,even if You will be townie) Focusing on KP,anti-KP,lynch roles has it pluses,but when You have A,enemy can have B,which effectively counters A or they just do some-kind of workaround. Scum wants chaos or a plan. A chaos under control is what they can't foresee. | ||
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Eiii
United States2566 Posts
On May 15 2011 06:34 Ace wrote: Good idea but trying to figure out what the mafia will pick is pretty much a crapshot at this point. There are just too many roles that are dangerous. Like Radfield iirc said - our best bet is to lynch anyone caught with clearly anti-town roles. This way no one can get away with " I was just picking this to deny Mafia from it" excuses. This is the plan I like most. In the last PYP game, structuring the picks too much caused a good bit of confusion and in the end, didn't really help with anything. I'm going to be picking a pro-town role no matter where I fall, and I think it's smart to hold everyone else to the same expectation. | ||
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
To add again to Radfield's list, Assassin is also extremely strong for mafia because mafia know all the alignments at the start, so as far as I can tell it's a free additional KP with few drawbacks. | ||
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bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
Role and queue analysis are the prime agenda. And mason is god damn useless for scum. No levelheaded scum will pick it. Tried it, and it sucked. Only drew attention, and they aren't deceiving anyone in this game. If mafia wants to prove me wrong, go ahead and pick it over the hundred other better roles. Pure towny role IMO. (obv not to say you shouldn't have a natural suspicion upon getting inducted into circles, but Im just talking from experience) | ||
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Kavdragon
United States1251 Posts
On May 15 2011 06:34 Ace wrote: Good idea but trying to figure out what the mafia will pick is pretty much a crapshot at this point. There are just too many roles that are dangerous. Like Radfield iirc said - our best bet is to lynch anyone caught with clearly anti-town roles. This way no one can get away with " I was just picking this to deny Mafia from it" excuses. Imo the top spots should hog as many as the detective roles as possible, and let the middle pickers take prot roles. Mafia having extra KP isn't that scary if there are many prot + known investigation roles to stop them. In essence everyone could literally role claim and just go down the line forming investigations and without a brutal amount of KP Scum would be powerless to stop it. Right, but it's not just about figuring out what the mafia will do. By nature of the fact that it will be a public discussion, it's nearly impossible. But it gives us something else to talk about, put more information and opinions out there which will be very helpful for analyzing afterwards. In addition, if we find out that the #1 draft person is mafia, then it's likely that they blanketed the top picks, and didn't chose the high numbers. This will give us information that there will likely be mafia in those tied up in the conflicting high numbers. Alternatively, if we find a mafia who picked a high number then we gain the information that it's less likely for there to be mafia tied up in conflicting high numbers. (The specifics might be wrong, but the general idea is not. We stand to gain information on how the whole mafia worked by looking at what some of them did.) The only way to avoid this sort of profiling is to not make an organized attempt on the numbers, in which case we win anyways. | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On May 15 2011 06:37 infinitestory wrote: I don't like this "let's stop planning" idea. I don't want to entirely stop planning,I just think that planning EVERYTHING is bad. We need to leave some space for random events,because as I said every plan has a flaw and we're planning here,nowhere else and everyone else sees it,be it Townie or Scum. If we go with "Ok guys,lets take as much kp roles as we can" 1.You can shoot everyone who is alive during the night 2.Wait until You supposedly know who to kill Is that good? Of course not,because with 1 we kill each other and with 2 we have only posts to analyse (they're good enough sometimes though) But if we go with "Ok guys,lets make majority of our roles KP,but don't forget 2-3 DT roles" Now we're cooking,but we're still left with two options,shoot blindly or wait. If we go with "Ok guys,lets make majority of our roles KP,take 2 DT and at least 2 anti-KP roles" This is a bad idea,mostly because our kills can be covered by another Townie,rendering mass kill(a bad option)worse than it was before,because You're left with no kills and no KP(mostly) My point is we can say that we mostly need X,take it,but we can't plan entire game because it leaves us with certain possibilities(I think You call it WIFOM?). The crazier combo we are going to have,the more effective it should be because it would have slight advantages and small disadvantages,not huge adv/disadv or small adv/huge disadv. | ||
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bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
On May 15 2011 06:49 infinitestory wrote: whoops To add again to Radfield's list, Assassin is also extremely strong for mafia because mafia know all the alignments at the start, so as far as I can tell it's a free additional KP with few drawbacks. Disagree, I think a town assassin is insane. They aren't considered to have a gun. They can just guess red everytime and never risk killing a townie. And I believe since their action is outed, since ver will say whether they targeted for role or red? Assassin cannot target alignment, just red or role, correct? And if they fail, will you reveal how the assassin sent the hit? (red or role) | ||
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
On May 15 2011 07:02 bumatlarge wrote: Disagree, I think a town assassin is insane. They aren't considered to have a gun. They can just guess red everytime and never risk killing a townie. And I believe since their action is outed, since ver will say whether they targeted for role or red? Assassin cannot target alignment, just red or role, correct? And if they fail, will you reveal how the assassin sent the hit? (red or role) Oh hmm, that looks like a misunderstanding on my part. If assassin can't target by both alignments, then it doesn't help mafia nearly as much. Assassin can't just guess red repeatedly either, though, since he loses his hit power if he gets it wrong. | ||
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
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tnkted
United States1359 Posts
Speaking of which, you just posted another point about mason I want to address: On May 15 2011 06:53 bumatlarge wrote: Mason is god damn useless for scum. No levelheaded scum will pick it. Tried it, and it sucked. Only drew attention, and they aren't deceiving anyone in this game. If mafia wants to prove me wrong, go ahead and pick it over the hundred other better roles. Pure towny role IMO. (obv not to say you shouldn't have a natural suspicion upon getting inducted into circles, but Im just talking from experience) I haven't ever played in a PM game (other than insane) so I'm not entirely sure how mason circles work traditionally. If I had to guess, I'd say that nobody in the mason circle trusts each other anyway until they're confirmed via dt checks and whatnot. IIRC, there are two separate mason circles in this game; if both of them are chosen (by either town or mafia) those circles are going to get very large very quickly, especially if we have a player who shares both circles. Bigger circles = higher chance of a AoC getting in. IMO, mason (recruiting mason even more so) is an extremely dangerous role that could easily kill a huge chunk of townies at the worst possible time. AoC and Mason = superscummy roles if both of them are taken. If somebody who has played in a PM game or a mason game could tell me how those generally play out, that'd be great. :D Regarding ace's post: On May 15 2011 06:34 Ace wrote: Good idea but trying to figure out what the mafia will pick is pretty much a crapshot at this point. There are just too many roles that are dangerous. Like Radfield iirc said - our best bet is to lynch anyone caught with clearly anti-town roles. This way no one can get away with " I was just picking this to deny Mafia from it" excuses. Imo the top spots should hog as many as the detective roles as possible, and let the middle pickers take prot roles. Mafia having extra KP isn't that scary if there are many prot + known investigation roles to stop them. In essence everyone could literally role claim and just go down the line forming investigations and without a brutal amount of KP Scum would be powerless to stop it. I agree that DTs are the most important roles. Depending on where you are in the list, here is what I personally would choose (and you should too!). From most important to least important (color coded as blue=town, red = scummy): "everything" roles (ie, inventor) Dts Medics (and jailer) information roles (tracker, watcher, etc, perhaps witch) Vet roles (including killproof roles like bulletproof) Killing roles role block/redirection roles (ie, busdriver, role reverser, NRA member, thief) Vote manipulation roles Does that seem right to everybody? If you rolecheck somebody and they're on the lower part of this list, the chance that they are scum rise dramatically. | ||
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bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
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