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urashimakt
United States1591 Posts
On April 10 2011 16:03 Protactinium wrote: Fortress made of text. You've made a fatal miscalculation: your smurfs can be reported. I've double backed, I'm re-endorsing Proctatinium for Pardoner. Still against a black as mayor in case he has to peace out to avoid losing at any point in the game (probably near the end). | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
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DropBear
Australia4291 Posts
On April 10 2011 16:02 Protactinium wrote: Unless you actively lynch Assassins (who most likely are going to either keep quiet or try to act overly pro-town) or they are killed by Mafia, I don't complete my mission objective. I don't really care how long it takes: there are 40 people in this game with no extra Mafia KP and no hatters. Ladies and gents, this is why I am not voting for Protactinium. Should he be elected, the longer he stays in office the more desperate the other assassins will get. They have incentive to kill the bodyguards. What incentive does he have to do anything to help us? We're his shield. It's in his interest to stay til the end and the longer he stays in the more likely townies will die unnecessarily. I am much more comfortable voting for someone who is useful AND pro-town like chaoser or GMarshal. The back and forth between Kavdragon and DocH is suss and I don't trust either of them enough. | ||
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Protactinium
Canada550 Posts
On April 10 2011 14:27 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I was thinking this earlier: -before this, assassins only have incentive to kill other assassins -now assassins have incentive to kill bodyguards -it means nothing to the town of protactinium is killed -we have no way to force him to use his powers in a pro-town way. are we really going to waste a lynch on him just because he won't hit who the town tells him to? so this basically shifts assassin KP against us, I've changed my mind. You have no way to force me to use my powers in a pro-town way anyway, nor do you have any way of forcing anybody to do so. You can threaten a lynch, but that holds true for everybody. At the very least, going against the town entices people to lynch me. If elected, lynch is the only way I can die, sans Bodyguard deaths. If I don't follow pro-town policy (I wanted Detective or townie but ended up with this instead) I risk death by the only way I can die. Why anger the only people (oxymoronic enough since it pertains to the entirety of the town) who can make me lose? On April 10 2011 14:28 urashimakt wrote: I don't think the other assassins (if they're wise) are going to be throwing KP at town. It just wouldn't be an effective way to achieve their win condition unless they knew who the bodyguards are, which they aren't going to. As far as giving a powerful green role to a black, I don't agree. He has no reason to pardon anyone that we wouldn't, as far as I can tell. He does, however, bring abilities to the table that I think are more powerful than the pardon. Really, I don't care about having three extra votes or a Pardon. How often is Pardon even used? Very very very very infrequently. As in, it's almost negigible. Knowing the identity of two townies (as in, two people not to shoot) is nice, but it's not a deal maker. I bring about two extra invincible vigilantes to the town, and effectively extend the life of the Detective squadron by one day as well. On April 10 2011 14:34 GMarshal wrote: Let me be utterly honest here if I were an assassin and another assassin got elected I would probably say "fuck this" and start gunning for townies out of frustration. Or worse, trying to help the mafia snipe the bgs so I could have a shot at my target. One way an assassin could do this is by detecting a BG with his DT ability and then giving out that information. And yes he has reasons to pardon someone who we would not, lets say the second place person in a vote is someone who he thinks is an assassin he'll happily pardon the first place to get the other person hanged, and potentially win. Also we have no way to make him use his abilities for us, lets say he uses his KP on whoever the fuck he wants, what are we going to do waste a lynch on him and give the mafia another free round of kills? No, more likely than not we'll say "damn you, shoot who we want" and let him live, because we cannot afford to waste a lynch. or if we do lynch him we helped the scum team, congratulations a true lose/lose situation This is a BAD IDEA, we want townies in power, not assassins who are out only for themselves. Why so angry? Are you mad that you didn't think of this idea? Just stop a moment and think about this: Why are you pushing so hard? Ignoring random probability, you're as likely Mafia as the next guy. Personally, I think you're black. Yet you haven't been honest to the town about it, so why should we want you in power? There's a good chance you're an Assassin. Given how much you're talking about them, it seems you're desperately afraid of allowing me into office, since that would mean you lose. If you're intending to actually be of some use to this town, you wouldn't given two cents about me beyond a couple posts. Also, no offense, but you aren't the best player, if XXXVII means anything at all (you're getting better, I'll give you that!). You're not all too high yet on my list of "people who I'd trust to do the job, and do it well". Stop whining incessantly about Assassins and start actually looking for Mafia. I wouldn't even want to talk about Assassins but cursorily if I didn't have to. By the way, I don't write these posts with any malice. I just think it's a more effective way of getting my point across than to just blabber on for hours about data and inferences and past things that matter. Oh, and one more thing: 2nd Place: PARDONER: You are the deputy mayor, but because the mayor is an asshole who hogs all the power, you don't really do much except for one thing: Once per game, you may choose to pardon the lynch target for that particular day. You may invoke the power at any time during the day cycle you choose, and no lynch will happen that day. You enjoy the same bodyguard-protection the mayor has. You are not immune to lynch, and if you are the lynch target, you may not pardon yourself. If you're so keen on running for the elected roles, might want to actually know what they can do. Your post is completely indicative of "town-aligned electees doesn't mean useful for town". On April 10 2011 15:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote: As others have said, I think voting a black in is lose-lose. There's no guarantee he'll do anything to really help us, and then we lose our mayor/pardoner. Also, as far as medicing him goes, I think we can just drop the discussion on that until Day 2. Assassins can't do anything night one, so unless mafia wants to hit him, there's no need to waste a medic on him. If he still wants to negotiate for kills later, then we can do that when he's actually in a position to kill. However, just to add to that quickly, he's actually useless to town if he's not mayor/pardoner, because if he says he's hitting a town chosen target, mafia can just RB him, because he's outed himself publicly. So, we don't want him in office, and he can't help us out of office. So, overall, I don't think he can help town much, besides giving all the other assassins a non-town target for night 2. Right now, I'm most comfortable picking either GMarshal or Dr.H for mayor. I've gotten the strongest town reads from them, and they've both shown they're not afraid of trying to look for scum and lead town in the right direction. ^ My thoughts. It's a good point you have about roleblocking. But consider this. I've spent so much time and effort now (alas, poor me!... not really) into making my 'campaign' for election. Remember that US Presidential election involving Jackson when the losing party was bitter? I sure do! Of course, being bitter isn't part of the game. We Assassins have no emotion, after all. Of course, if I don't get elected that leaves me in an interesting spot. I don't really want to play this role, so I wouldn't mind if I died. However, in essence of "playing the game" the optimal (though still not very good) strategy would be to ally with the Mafia. Obviously, if I lose the election, theres no way I can help town without dying. Assassins aren't bulletproof nor do they have extra lives in this game, so if I try to be pro-town, mafia will just shoot me or roleblock me, nullifying me completely. Thats 100% certain death for me. This means that I'm forced to ally with the mafia. And that's relatively easy for me to do. The terms are simple, they don't roleblock me or shoot me, and I don't analyze them or shoot them. Played correctly, Assassins aren't a huge threat to either Mafia or town, nor are they gamebreaking like a lategame SK. On April 10 2011 15:36 darmousseh wrote: Wow, Protactinium is either a genius or an idiot. Only time will tell, but for the sake of town, having a pro-town player ensures that we will have someone in the best interest of town the entire game, rather than having someone who might suddenly switch in order to make things in his favor. I do like the ballsy play and it's better than voting in a scum, but i don't know. Sounds like a dangerous idea. FoS Kav, This might just be a meta thing, but I am not getting a huge town vibe out of you. I'm guessing you are an assassin though since if you were scum you probably would be a little more vocal. I generally like gmarshal, but I hope someone else runs for the vice-mayor role as I don't know what to think of chaoser just yet. Gmarshal is definitely a great asset to town and should be kept alive and be given extra voting privileges. ##Vote: Gmarshal Well, I'd like to think I'm not an idiot, so that leaves... Wait, are you sure you're not pigeonholing this a bit too much? Perhaps I'm just bored. Standard Mafia games are all the same, and they need something to spice them up. Also, how can I "switch things in order to make things in my favor"? The only possible thing I could do is to off a townsmember or pardon a Mafia if it seems if town is going to win too quickly. And at most, that either irks the town (killing townsperson) or gives the last [couple] Mafia an extra day. You lynch me after that. How am I gamebreaking? On April 10 2011 16:19 chaoser wrote: Go read the rest of it -_-. He wants to have fun, not wins ASAP. Probably be banned in any other part of the forum for saying something like that lol. And also that's a horribly anti-town thing to say. You're slightly off (to the both of you). I'm not doing this purely because I want to cause chaos and mayhem. I'm no Joker. I wanted to play town, and I wanted DT, and yet I'm not. Or am I? Consider this my way of living my dreams vicariously through a black-and-blue role. Interesting. There's a psychological resistance to people being willing to vote a black (third-party role) into office because of the fact that they do not share win conditions. However, as already stated, if you consider the win condition I have more carefully, there is nothing that incentivizes me, or the other Assassins, to be anti-town. Especially considering that once elected, I can only die by lynch. Lastly, consider the fact that some "townies" are pretty bad and play anti-town as town. Knowing who I am, you can rest assured that I will be pro-town. On April 10 2011 16:40 urashimakt wrote: You've made a fatal miscalculation: your smurfs can be reported. I've double backed, I'm re-endorsing Proctatinium for Pardoner. Still against a black as mayor in case he has to peace out to avoid losing at any point in the game (probably near the end). Wait, not related to the game, but are you saying you're going to report me for smurfing? Uh... I'm a staff member. I have several known smurfs running around. This is just for Mafia? | ||
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Protactinium
Canada550 Posts
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DropBear
Australia4291 Posts
On April 10 2011 16:06 kitaman27 wrote: I stopped reading here. The assassin, whose goal is the kill other assassins, is trying to tell us he doesn't want to lynch assassins. Good point by Kita. You are going to direct lynches at them, yes you are not. There is pretty blatant contradiction here. More thoughts to follow. | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
On April 10 2011 16:59 DropBear wrote: Hi everyone, just got home. First thing that struck me is how many people are running for mayor. Ladies and gents, this is why I am not voting for Protactinium. Should he be elected, the longer he stays in office the more desperate the other assassins will get. They have incentive to kill the bodyguards. What incentive does he have to do anything to help us? We're his shield. It's in his interest to stay til the end and the longer he stays in the more likely townies will die unnecessarily. I am much more comfortable voting for someone who is useful AND pro-town like chaoser or GMarshal. The back and forth between Kavdragon and DocH is suss and I don't trust either of them enough. I think it's been covered but assassins acting desperate won't help them win. They have incentive to kill bodyguards yes, but shooting indiscriminately into town isn't going to net them bodyguard kills. It's a 40 man game. They have 3 KP a piece, 1 of which has to be used on an assassin. So really they all have 2 KP apiece to use whichever way they feel like. Aside from hunting other assassins, you really think they're all going to be trying to kill bodyguards which they don't know who is? If anything they'll try to kill each other off first, hope mafia hits bodyguards and then when all the bodyguards are dead, shoot Prot. There's no reason for them to throw their KP away trying to kill BG when they don't know how they are. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On April 10 2011 17:02 Protactinium wrote: However, in essence of "playing the game" the optimal (though still not very good) strategy would be to ally with the Mafia. Obviously, if I lose the election, theres no way I can help town without dying. The game is just hours in and he is already threatening town. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
On April 10 2011 17:05 DropBear wrote: I forgot to highlight the bit saying unless you actively lynch assassins, he doesn't win. Basically, he wants us to lynch assassin's for him. Good point by Kita. You are going to direct lynches at them, yes you are not. There is pretty blatant contradiction here. More thoughts to follow. He does win, he doesn't need to lynch assassins to win, he just needs them to all be dead. Whether that's from his own KP, mafia's KP or lynch, doesn't matter. The moment we think he's not playing "pro-town" we can lynch him. Just like how any other player would be dealt with. If a mayor was red and playing anti-town, we lynch. If it was a green who was elected and he was plying subpar and anti-town, we'd lynch. We basically treat everyone who's in a mayor position in the same way. At least he brings two KP and a check to the table. He has no real reason to go against town. There's no way he'll win the assassin game by day 2, not even close. At most he'll win late game. I say we give him pardoner, use his sexy sexy brain and KP/check powers and profit. It'd then be in the mafia's best interest to take out black so that the assassin game can end early and Prot is whisked off. That's good for town cause then they need to focus on black, not green. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On April 10 2011 17:11 chaoser wrote: He does win, he doesn't need to lynch assassins to win, he just needs them to all be dead. Whether that's from his own KP, mafia's KP or lynch, doesn't matter. The moment we think he's not playing "pro-town" we can lynch him. What's to stop him from blackmailing town with the identities of the bodyguards once we decide the time has come? Or maybe the identity of the medic/dt? He certainly wouldn't go down without a fight, plus that's a lynch we should be using on scum, not black. On April 10 2011 17:11 chaoser wrote: At least he brings two KP and a check to the table. He has no real reason to go against town. There's no way he'll win the assassin game by day 2, not even close. At most he'll win late game. I say we give him pardoner, use his sexy sexy brain and KP/check powers and profit. It'd then be in the mafia's best interest to take out black so that the assassin game can end early and Prot is whisked off. That's good for town cause then they need to focus on black, not green. Shooting scum does not further his win condition. If he shoots, its going to be because he thinks he is hitting an assassin. He brought up a good point earlier. If town wins, he loses. Why are you defending him so much? | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
On April 10 2011 17:21 kitaman27 wrote: What's to stop him from blackmailing town with the identities of the bodyguards once we decide the time has come? Or maybe the identity of the medic/dt? He certainly wouldn't go down without a fight, plus that's a lynch we should be using on scum, not black. Shooting scum does not further his win condition. If he shoots, its going to be because he thinks he is hitting an assassin. He brought up a good point earlier. If town wins, he loses. Why are you defending him so much? Because once he blackmails he's lost the game. It's game over for him. He won't be able to win the assassin game cause we'll lynch him the next day. What's the point of doing something that is akin to fucking your own win condition out the window? He has no reason to help black just as he has no inherent reason to help town. But he's making a call and saying, I will help town. It's already been explained that black playing pro-town is a better game plan then to play pro-red. It's been proven in a few games too where black ended up selling his services to help town in return for protection/checks. Shooting scum doesn't further his win condition, yes. But becoming protected by bodyguards does. He can't be killed till the BGs die. In return he'll give town control over two of his KP and his check. You think town is going to win from two KP and a check and then he screws himself over? Please. Most likely he'll be close to winning by mid-late game at the earliest. Why am I defending him so much? Why do you ask? Let's think about the choices: 1) I'm black - lawl, why would black help black get into office, no 2) I'm red - lawl, why would I cut my team's chances of getting into office by letting a black into office, especially one that says he'll give town 2 KP and a check who can also prove himself since he can't be roleblocked, no 3) I'm green and I can see the inherent positives that he brings to the table and that the negatives are negligible at best given all the other risks we are taking with other candidates. At least his platform has more substance than anyone else out there that is pretty much "PLEASE BELIEVE ME!! I'M TOWN!" - ding ding ding You are either black, red, or stupid town. You can pick. | ||
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DropBear
Australia4291 Posts
On April 10 2011 17:11 chaoser wrote: He does win, he doesn't need to lynch assassins to win, he just needs them to all be dead. Whether that's from his own KP, mafia's KP or lynch, doesn't matter. The moment we think he's not playing "pro-town" we can lynch him. Just like how any other player would be dealt with. If a mayor was red and playing anti-town, we lynch. If it was a green who was elected and he was plying subpar and anti-town, we'd lynch. We basically treat everyone who's in a mayor position in the same way. At least he brings two KP and a check to the table. He has no real reason to go against town. There's no way he'll win the assassin game by day 2, not even close. At most he'll win late game. I say we give him pardoner, use his sexy sexy brain and KP/check powers and profit. It'd then be in the mafia's best interest to take out black so that the assassin game can end early and Prot is whisked off. That's good for town cause then they need to focus on black, not green. As I said, the longer it takes for him to win, the more likely bodyguards or randoms townies get killed by the other assassins. With this many players there are likely to be a few as well. Much higher chance of crossfire. I was actually going to vote for you lol. I'm not so sure now. Candidates so far: Kavdragon GMarshal chaoser Protactinium kitaman27 Kenpachi DoctorHelvetica I'm not sure I'm comfortable with DocH, I'm definitely not comfortable with Protactinium. For mine the two most obvious towns are kitaman and chaoser. I am leaning toward one of them. For now, ##Vote: kitaman27 | ||
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DropBear
Australia4291 Posts
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
As I said, the longer it takes for him to win, the more likely bodyguards or randoms townies get killed by the other assassins. With this many players there are likely to be a few as well. Much higher chance of crossfire. They have 3 KP a piece, 1 of which has to be used on an assassin. So really they all have 2 KP apiece to use whichever way they feel like. Aside from hunting other assassins, you really think they're all going to be trying to randomly kill bodyguards which they don't know? If anything they'll try to kill each other off first, hope mafia hits bodyguards and then when all the bodyguards are dead, shoot Prot. There's no reason for them to throw their KP away trying to kill BG when they don't know who they are. | ||
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AirbladeOrange
United States2571 Posts
For the mayor situation, it just seems so difficult to actually pick a good mayor at the beginning of the game. Everyone who's running seems like they have an equally valid reason for why people should vote for them. Hell, I probably would have run if I weren't temp banned. My instincts tell me to vote for the flashy guy. Marshal seems like he would be a guy with a fancy looking suit based on the pretty pictures presented in his campaign post. | ||
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urashimakt
United States1591 Posts
On April 10 2011 17:02 Protactinium wrote: Wait, not related to the game, but are you saying you're going to report me for smurfing? Uh... I'm a staff member. I have several known smurfs running around. This is just for Mafia? Nope, it was just a joke from complaining about your face spam before the game started. Had no actual intention to report a well-known member for doing something that's not against any rules anywhere. Sorry, I suppose it was a little far out there. On April 10 2011 17:07 chaoser wrote: I think it's been covered but assassins acting desperate won't help them win. They have incentive to kill bodyguards yes, but shooting indiscriminately into town isn't going to net them bodyguard kills. It's a 40 man game. They have 3 KP a piece, 1 of which has to be used on an assassin. So really they all have 2 KP apiece to use whichever way they feel like. Aside from hunting other assassins, you really think they're all going to be trying to kill bodyguards which they don't know who is? If anything they'll try to kill each other off first, hope mafia hits bodyguards and then when all the bodyguards are dead, shoot Prot. There's no reason for them to throw their KP away trying to kill BG when they don't know how they are. This. Assassins that are playing to win are not going to be a threat. Protactinium can't ally with with the Mafia if he can't talk to them, and by BrownBear's ruling so far he can't do that via PM. Being an assassin is still going to be a waiting game, they'll just have a target they can't hit until very late into the game. The ability to pardon grants him no power to reach his own win condition. It's true that we can't force him to hold to his word about using his 2 hammers and 1 rolecheck in our favor, but there's very little reason for him not to. He only needs 1 hammer to win his game. More importantly, if he's ingratiated to play as town while he sits around for days doing nothing then we gain the analysis of a veteran. I think it's worth it. On April 10 2011 17:10 kitaman27 wrote: The game is just hours in and he is already threatening town. Well, seeing as Mafia can only PM Mafia and no one else is allowed to PM, I'd be super impressed if he managed to somehow backstab us by allying with the Mafia. | ||
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TranceStorm
1616 Posts
On April 10 2011 18:25 urashimakt wrote: Well, seeing as Mafia can only PM Mafia and no one else is allowed to PM, I'd be super impressed if he managed to somehow backstab us by allying with the Mafia. There is always the possibility that he is a mafia pretending to be an assassin in order to win himself an elected position on the merits of the arguments he listed earlier. But I'm not particularly inclined to this view because as of right now because that strategy would be exceedingly risky at the very beginning of the game. If we were to elect Protactinium, at the very least, we would make sure that a clear non-mafia were elected for the time being. However, I am concerned about his commitment to being pro-town if elected. From his own admission, he says that: Obviously, if I lose the election, theres no way I can help town without dying. Assassins aren't bulletproof nor do they have extra lives in this game, so if I try to be pro-town, mafia will just shoot me or roleblock me, nullifying me completely. Thats 100% certain death for me. This means that I'm forced to ally with the mafia. And that's relatively easy for me to do. The terms are simple, they don't roleblock me or shoot me, and I don't analyze them or shoot them. Played correctly, Assassins aren't a huge threat to either Mafia or town, nor are they gamebreaking like a lategame SK. Of course, what should happen if he were to be elected, and both bodyguards were to die? The chances are slim of course, but the fact is that he could switch sides at critical moments (i.e. when he is one of the deciding votes between the mafia and town). In the early game, Protactinium would definitely be town-sided, but resulting changes to the circumstances of the game could radically change his allegiances. Oh and lastly, I don't think he would be able to 'ally with mafia' like he claims if he weren't elected since another assassin would take him out to further their own chances at victory. Like other people of reiterated, I would recommend that the pardoner would be the best position for Protactinium on the basis that an assassin would have little reason to ever pardon someone, but at the same time, we have a confirmed non-mafia who is able to give good analysis of player behavior and who will survive for the later stages of the game. | ||
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Robellicose
England245 Posts
FoS DoctorHelvetica ##Vote GMarshal | ||
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aidnai
United States1159 Posts
DrH, will you please shut up a bit? you are playing the same way you did back in insane 1... I want the new players to speak up, but it won't happen if you keep biting their heads off and/or drowning them with your spamming. Instead of reacting to every little thing you disagree with, wait and see who else disagrees, who lets it slide, who likes it, etc. I would consider protact a good candidate for pardoner or mayor. One question that is vital though: I have never seen town use "gift KP" well, so how do you intend to put your KP to town use? especially with a town this size, a vote is going to be a nightmare. You could have the mayor pick your targets, but that puts even more power into one pair of hands. Leaving it to your discretion is...lawl. | ||
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