EPTTL Mafia XXXVIII - Page 29
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
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Conversion
United States3308 Posts
On April 10 2011 15:02 Conversion wrote: Yes I am new and I would rather not speak because I'd make a lot of mistakes that would lead to scum reads from the players that can't differentiate from scum and bad townie play. Thanks, I like to know that I am terrible. You're a great help, Mr. "if you think someone is an assassin announce it" I never realized there was a part in there that said "if you're a terrible poster, I'm going to attack you for FoSing an assassin." | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On April 10 2011 14:39 DoctorHelvetica wrote: im gonna run because i can only trust myself here is my "policy" mayor: -use my votes on whoever i think is scummiest not who the "town" tells me to vote for -lynch kavdragon on day 1 pardoner: -pardon whoever i think is getting lynched on a dumb bandwagon even if the rest of the town is pretty sure they are scum that's it On April 01 2011 01:30 DoctorHelvetica wrote: can i please not be mayor We have our first major contradiction here. Pre-game he does not want to be mayor. He recieves his role pm and decides to run. FOS DrH On April 10 2011 12:39 chaoser wrote: I am willing, unlike Kita, to make the difficult choices. If I feel an unjust lynch is being made and that the second highest person being voted on is actually mafia, I will make that call and I will pardon. It will be an informed decision and I will explain my actions in a satisfactory way but I will not sit around twiddling my fingers when I think a wrong is about to occur. At least as pardoner, I promise to read the rules. It doesn't matter if the second highest person is mafia. When a pardon is used, no one is lynched. Sounds like you don't want the pardoner role in my hands. We're you planning to run for the pardoner specifically before I announced my campaign or after you saw me running? | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
Also I can agree with a GMarshal, chaoser mayoral campaign, choaser, you are in charge of the posters. Sorry kav, but I have to vote for my new running mate ##Unvote ##Vote: Chaoser | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On April 10 2011 15:10 Conversion wrote: Thanks, I like to know that I am terrible. You're a great help, Mr. "if you think someone is an assassin announce it" I never realized there was a part in there that said "if you're a terrible poster, I'm going to attack you for FoSing an assassin." build a bridge and get over it from your poorly constructed post it was easy to misunderstand that you thought eiii might have been mafia and were even implying he was a lynch candidate and instead of clearing up what you meant you got whiny and defensive and sarcastic and then try to flip it and make me look bad somehow not exactly the towniest way to conduct yourself but i have bigger fish to fry like mib and kavdragon On April 10 2011 15:10 chaoser wrote: You were a non-issue in my head lol. GM+chaoser for XXXVIII MAYORAL CAMPAIGN 2011! im actually offended | ||
Mig
United States4714 Posts
On April 10 2011 14:50 DoctorHelvetica wrote: it's just shit everyone else said, sounds like you're regurgitating the points strong players have made to make yourself sound agreeable somehow. if you were typing up that small post at the same time we already went through all that then you're the worlds slowest typist I am really slow. On April 10 2011 14:51 GMarshal wrote: So, to counteract the fact that you have been adding little let me ask you a few little questions Who is your #1 town read? Not counting inactives, who is your number 1 scum read? Who is your favorite Starcraft Player? #1 town read you- a lot of people vouched they could tell if you were mafia. If you were all mafia I don't think they would put themselves out there backing you because if you did end up being mafia it could be traced right back to all of them so I assume their opinions are genuine. #2 kavdragon but only because I didn't agree with his points about the assassin. I don't have any other real analysis. #3 for bw it was mondragon for sc2 jinro I guess I am playing pretty terribly so far regardless of what I am. All I can say is this is my first time playing and I was genuinely trying to help. As the game goes on and I learn I will provide better analysis. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On April 10 2011 15:13 GMarshal wrote: Frankly I think Dr.H is a terrible candidate for mayor, (no offense intended) as his track record in town leadership has mafia winning most times. I think he is a fine player, and I'm happy to have him doing analysis and such, but I dont want him in a position where the entire town follows him as he has a rather large tendency to second guess himself. Also I can agree with a GMarshal, chaoser mayoral campaign, choaser, you are in charge of the posters. Sorry kav, but I have to vote for my new running mate ##Unvote ##Vote: Chaoser note in insane mafia the game went to shit after i died and i was leading town to killing the mafia and had ace/pandain pinned down as mafia in my mind also in salem i just made a bad second guess mistake. not my fault everyone fucking claimed to me by day 2, i never asked for it | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On April 10 2011 15:12 kitaman27 wrote: 'Cmon now town. I go away for a couple hours and come back to see we are considering electing an assassin. He does not have a town win condition. He has no incentive to help town. All the people that were talking about how we need a strong "leader" in office, do you really think a third party would be that person? To lead the town to victory? Leave him to die by night kill. That's one less non-town we have to worry about. You may now commence the yelling of "OMG kita doesn't want to elect an assassin. He must be an assassin!" We have our first major contradiction here. Pre-game he does not want to be mayor. He recieves his role pm and decides to run. FOS DrH At least as pardoner, I promise to read the rules. It doesn't matter if the second highest person is mafia. When a pardon is used, no one is lynched. Sounds like you don't want the pardoner role in my hands. We're you planning to run for the pardoner specifically before I announced my campaign or after you saw me running? i changed my mind recently because i dont trust anyone else who is running id vote for tknter or whatever if he ran, thats the only person giving me a town read right now | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
FoS Kav, This might just be a meta thing, but I am not getting a huge town vibe out of you. I'm guessing you are an assassin though since if you were scum you probably would be a little more vocal. I generally like gmarshal, but I hope someone else runs for the vice-mayor role as I don't know what to think of chaoser just yet. Gmarshal is definitely a great asset to town and should be kept alive and be given extra voting privileges. ##Vote: Gmarshal | ||
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Protactinium
Canada550 Posts
On April 10 2011 13:24 GMarshal wrote: Protactinium I applaude your ballsy move, I however hate to have to condemn you to a painful death, since not having a townie as mayor hurts us, frankly the mayor and pardoner roles are extremely strong and we need them in the hands of the town. Also as an assassin you are likely to want to aim the lynch at other assasins. I offer you a counter deal, you put your kp/DT check at the service of the town and we will have medics protect you. Is as good as being the mayor, but it dosn't cost the town those roles. Still kudos for your balls of steel in making that claim I don't need to and I don't care to lynch other Assassins. I shoot them at night with my last bullet. As to your 'counter-deal', definitely no. Firstly, as some people have pointed out you aren't one hundred percent sure that we do have medics. While it would be slightly inane and ludicrous if we didn't, hosts have done weirder things. I'm pretty sure the last game I hosted (or was it the one before?) had naught but greens, one Vigilante, and three Veterans. And another game had no Detectives. Secondly, assuming we do have medics why would they waste their protection on non-town--i.e., myself? My third point (the case on the Pardoner) will be addressed below. On April 10 2011 13:25 tnkted wrote: Yeah I'm down with offering some medic protect on him but there is absolutely no way that we can give him the mayorship. As people have said multiple times, we need somebody who can be a good leader. People look to the mayor. He has a PM circle. If mayor isn't town the position is entirely wasted. On April 04 2011 01:06 BrownBear wrote: Mafia may PM each other. That's the only group that's allowed PMs in this setup unless I missed something. Also, can we please take the banlist discussion/dick waving elsewhere? Thanks. Only Mafia can PM each other. After this post there is no mention of any sort of correction. On April 10 2011 13:27 chaoser wrote: It's ballsy. He's probably Assassin so it all depends on whether we want him in office or not. We get 2KP and a role check. He gets to live until both bodyguards are dead. We don't get a proven leader/analyst protected. ##Vote Protactinium for now. That was ballsy as fuck. You've repeated this point in a later post, so I'll take the liberty of not responding to that one. For this one, I've already dropped a couple hints responding to GMarshal as to who I actually am. Once you figure out who I am, then you can judge if I'm qualified as a leader/analyst. On April 10 2011 13:28 GGQ wrote: If we are going with Protact, we should make him Pardoner, not Mayor obviously. We still get the valuable mayor role for town, and Protact has no motivation to use Pardoner powers unless town wants him to. When he wins the game, he leaves and all we lose is Pardoner power. It's a pretty good trade, I think. I support making him Pardoner. Pardoner is perfectly fine. Furthermore, let's analyze how elections have gone in past TL Mafia games--in a separate post located below this one. On April 10 2011 13:28 tnkted wrote: Hmm... On the other hand this would give mafia incentive to be hunting for assassins as well... question for the vets: in games with assassins are assassin targets typically reds or greens? ie, do most assassins act like classic red, with lurking and trying to avoid attention, or do they act like classic greens with analysis and debate? As the person who hosted the past two games of TL Mafia (TL Mafia XXII and TL Mafia XXX) where there have been Assassins/Ninjas, I can tell you that those chosen were pretty low-key for the most part, hiding to avoid detection. And that's what I was planning to do--before I decided to actually have fun this game. As I said before, obviously I don't have to help the town at all. There's no legal, moral, or ethical incentive for me to do so! Both XXII and XXX were devoid of elections, so there was no real reason for Assassins to stick up. Interestingly enough, Asssassins didn't really 'win' in either game. They were lynched (jpak (Day 1) in XXII, and Pandain (Day 2) in XXX), killed by Mafia (tree.hugger and AcrossFiveJulys (Night 2) during XXII), or shot by other Assassins (VayeshMoru and Bill Murray shot each other simultaneously on Night 4 of XXX). Above, I used 'win' loosely: RebirthOfLeGenD completed his win condition in TL Mafia XXII by being the last one alive... after two assassins had been killed by Mafia and the third by town. None of these seven Assassins/Ninjas attempted to be (actually) pro-town. So what do you get out of all this information? Well, you've learned now that Assassins do not actually have a fun time. You can't talk to anybody in PM games (which both XXII and XXX were) comfortably--and in this game you can't even PM. You can't affect the real outcome of the game--nobody cared (<3 Foolishness) when the Assassins died/were removed. So what's different about XXXVIII? There's elections. Hail Captain Obvious! As I said, I want to actually make an impact on this game, and have fun while doing so. Sticking to the shadows does not constitute badassery outside of fictionalized worlds like the universe of Naruto. On April 10 2011 13:36 Eiii wrote: Also once his two assassin buddies die off, he gets removed from the game-- and we lose our nice 3-vote mayor (or pardoner). Unless you actively lynch Assassins (who most likely are going to either keep quiet or try to act overly pro-town) or they are killed by Mafia, I don't complete my mission objective. I don't really care how long it takes: there are 40 people in this game with no extra Mafia KP and no hatters, meaning it's going to last quite a while. As demonstrated below in the secondary post, elected roles really are not that good for town (as in, they're favoring Mafia if past statistics have anything to show for it), so it's not that big of a loss, and since I'm not leaving till quite near the end, the effect of losing your Assassin elected role is even more negligible once Mafia numbers are low. On April 10 2011 13:59 Kavdragon wrote: Oh man, Protact, you just made my day. That was brilliant, but not quite thought through enough. The biggest problem, first and foremost, is that other assassins will be gunning for our body guards if you were Mayor/Pardoner. You may have two KP you are willing to lend us, but is it worth it if all the other assassins are going to be attacking townies because of it? Another problem is that putting you in the position of Pardoner OR mayor would give you information about the bodyguards, something that would be quite valuable to the mafia. Since your win condition is not the same as our, I don't think that it would be wise for us to trust you with that information. I loved the idea when I first read it, because I was thinking about how the assassins don't have a conflict of interest with the town, so it'd be great to get them working for us, but the problem becomes that we have to pick one of you to work with. That will set all the others against the town, and that counteracts the usefulness in a pretty big way. I'm glad I could make your day. If you're town-aligned, hopefully my antics will continue to do so as this game rolls on. Pleasantries aside now, let's get down to addressing your points. Yes, the other Assassins can try to hunt for bodyguards. However, they have one role check and three kills. Given that there are 40 people in the game, that's quite a bit of townies. And if Assassins are going to slice them up with their banhammers (wait hammers can't slice), then good luck to them in finding the other Assassins out there! This shouldn't "set them against the town" any more than it already would have. An Assassin laying low isn't going to try to act like a blue role (for most cases--not including ballsy moves), or else they'll draw the attention of the Mafia as well. It's no fun being gunned down by everybody! Who cares if I get the list? (Besides you--and I'm only answering this redundant question since it makes the rest of the paragraph parallel!) I'm not here to kill townies. Am I going to leak it? It's not in my interest to do so. Why don't you trust me? Who else would you trust? The potential Mafia that could be (and most likely will) winning an elected role? Me having the list is win-win. I know who not to check or shoot, thus sparing the lives of two townspeople, and you get to sleep comfortably knowing that Mafia do not know the identity of bodyguards. Also, let me point out something pretty small about my win condition: it in fact does overlap with yours (the town's). I can't win if either side wins the game first. Therefore, if Mafia get to the point where they are outnumbering the town or will inevitably do so, I've already lost. Yes, having less people means it's more likely that I'll be able to cap one of my competitors, but they can do the same to me. However, if Mafia numbers decrease (and they shall when I plug them full of justice) then town will have quite a good time. If there's two Mafia left and I complete my win condition with 10-15 town left, then you guys easily win after that. From this, we can deduce that the Assassin optimally should play more of a town-aligned role in order to maximize his winning chances. Since I hardly have fun playing Mafia anymore, I'm seizing the chance and taking it to the extreme. On April 10 2011 14:00 GMarshal wrote: ... And to all the people who are arguing that losing the pardoner is worth it I disagree, because frankly I dont trust having someone with a non town win-con in office, especially considering that the threat of the pardon basically stops last minute bandwagons from scum and makes last minute vote switches much scarier for the scumteam. ... By the time the Mafia members decide that it's time to do this, they'll already be in a commanding position. Furthermore, I'm not the biggest fan of lynching for information, but information is good for the town--and the Pardoner stops the flip. Let's not even get started on how a Mafia Pardoner (and let's be real here, a Mafia member has every advantage in getting elected since he or she has a cadre of friends to back him/her up) could totally slay the town. As of this post, I have read only up to the beginning of page 27. Will address anything needing addressing shortly after. | ||
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Protactinium
Canada550 Posts
AMW - Mafia Mayor, Town Pardoner TL Mafia V - Town got both spots. Mafia didn't send any candidates for office, and were the weakest mafia team in TL Mafia History TL Mafia VII - Mafia Mayor, no 2nd elected office. TL Mafia VIII - Town gets both spots. Mafia fielded 2 candidates and 1 traitor for office. Town eventually self destructs on Mayor/Pardoner controversy. Pyrr's Mafia Game - Town gets both spots. TL Mafia XII - Town is voted into office and is subsequently offed day 3. TL Mafia XV - Mafia Mayor, Town (Detective) Pardoner Red Army Mafia - 3rd Party in Office (whose goal is to survive) Town win. BC's TL Mafia XVI - 2 Townies in office Incog's TL Mafia XVI - Mafia Sheriff, Town Mayor TL Mafia XVIII - Medic Mayor, Mafia Pardoner TL Mafia XX - DT Mayor, Town Bus Driver Pardoner In 13 games 17 town-aligned roles, 6 Mafia roles, and 1 third-party role have claimed elected spots. However, numbers aren't everything. Some of these games (lookin' at you, Caller of the Red Army and AMW,which was normal, but aborted without finishing) are not considered normal--that is, in the same vein as the one we are playing right now--and thus are statistically less useful. Furthermore, take into account that [excluding XX, one of the most ridiculously imbalanced games for reasons stated below, XVIII, which was a dual town-Mafia victory, and V, another ridiculously imbalanced game] the question of "who won these election-oriented games" is still out there. As for that, there have been 4 town victories and 5 Mafia victories given relatively normal circumstances. Given the ratio of town-aligned electees and Mafia-aligned electees, I'd say something is wrong. Also, using Ver's post (link is below) and arbitrarily and quantitatively giving out point values (1 for close, 2.5 for solid, and 4 for overwhelming) for wins, town's average win score is 7/4 = 1.75 (1+1+2.5+2.5). Meanwhile, Mafia scores higher, sitting at 10/4 = 2.5 (1+4+1+4). Of course, these scores and values are contrived by myself, but the point stands: town being elected isn't always helpful. However, Mafia being elected is pretty devastating, given the numbers. And, again, that's why it's good to have me: I'm not Mafia. And most likely, I'm going to be more useful than any town player to the town. I cannot attest to the details of all games in question since I was either not part of TL Mafia at the time or just too lazy to read up on the game. I will, however, go over the ones that I remember/watched/participated in. Those games tend to be the more recent ones, which not only are more indicative of "recent" town play, but are also a testament to the shifting metagame (don't kill me Chill) of TL Mafia. Also, take into consideration that AMW, II, V, and VII had way more players than the games of today.
For the categorized list of TL Mafia games and the outcomes, look at Ver's post here. It's a bit out of date, but it makes for a good read into the history of TL Mafia. This was originally supposed to be part of the first post, but it became an entity of its own. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On April 10 2011 16:02 Protactinium wrote: I don't need to and I don't care to lynch other Assassins. I shoot them at night with my last bullet. I stopped reading here. The assassin, whose goal is the kill other assassins, is trying to tell us he doesn't want to lynch assassins. | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
You've repeated this point in a later post, so I'll take the liberty of not responding to that one. For this one, I've already dropped a couple hints responding to GMarshal as to who I actually am. Once you figure out who I am, then you can judge if I'm qualified as a leader/analyst. I remember who you are now =P. Ok, i'm willing to give up my spot for yous. ##vote Protacinium | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
On April 10 2011 16:07 chaoser wrote: I remember who you are now =P. Ok, i'm willing to give up my spot for yous. ##vote Protacinium To clarify, he is both a decent leader and analyst. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On April 10 2011 16:17 chaoser wrote: To clarify, he is both a decent leader and analyst. -__- | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
On April 10 2011 16:06 kitaman27 wrote: I stopped reading here. The assassin, whose goal is the kill other assassins, is trying to tell us he doesn't want to lynch assassins. Go read the rest of it -_-. He wants to have fun, not wins ASAP. Probably be banned in any other part of the forum for saying something like that lol. And also that's a horribly anti-town thing to say. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
If town wants you as pardoner, then there is nothing I can do to stop them, obviously, but for the record my previous argument that if we elect you we have no means of controlling you other than wasting a lynch still stands. I don't want to make you die night one. but I will not vote for someone who I think does not have the towns best interests at heart, sorry. | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
On April 10 2011 16:28 GMarshal wrote: Sorry Protactinium but despite the fact that you make compelling arguments and are a great player, its an undeniable fact that you have a non-town win condition, and I dont think you'll be using all your powers to further our win. If town wants you as pardoner, then there is nothing I can do to stop them, obviously, but for the record my previous argument that if we elect you we have no means of controlling you other than wasting a lynch still stands. I don't want to make you die night one. but I will not vote for someone who I think does not have the towns best interests at heart, sorry. That's debatable though. To vote into office someone who is not that great at leading/analyzing would mean bad things for town too. Like we had previously discussed, a leader/analyst would be the best choice to vote into office. And prot can do that. Just look at his massive info filled post just now, clearly he is able to do it. While his win condition is different from ours it doesn't mean that it is against ours. In fact it has some overlap. There's no reason for prot to go "out of control" so there's no real reason for us to "control him". For him to go out of control is for him to fuck his win condition out the window and lose so he'll be playing protown. He's pretty much running on the same platform everyone else is running on "I'll be pro-town" except he is 99% transparent. He already talked about the reason why playing pro-town black is better than playing pro-red black. I wish I had pm so we could sort out the logic a bit better but I really see almost no problems with electing prot. They would be negligible at best. | ||
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