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Well I don't get why it's like, either L's plan or my plan. It's not like they overlap.
And like, it just takes 2 people to agree with L's plan for it to happen, whether we like it or not. It takes considerable amount of town effort to go ahead with my plan. And by now I've given up on trying to convince town of any plan. I mean look at Qatol, he's like well known awesome amazing top notch player. He asked town to claim their numbers in PYP, nothing about their roles, and everyone had to freak out like crazy. And that's Qatol.
I had a plan for someone claiming copycat. It was implemented with much struggle and a lot of town opposed it but in the end it helped us catch one of the mafia (which was the one that stole the copycat role). So hey, that's just what I do. I don't go around having vibes or looking for tells, I just look for logic, consistency, and mostly on day 1 I look for ways to break the game.
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What if zeks says that, and then we're all like omg what if he's jail keeper? And then he goes on and says he's mason to make himself safe. If the real masons saw that, maybe the real masons both disagrees with L's plan and think that zeks could be jail keeper or some important role we don't want to kill? Just a possibility to throw out there.
Also, we can confirm that people can PM each other by asking one of them to post an encrypted message in the thread, and then later on if we need to confirm the other guy (ex. if the first guy dies and the second guy is about to be lynched) we can have him give us the key to the message and the message will decrypt to say like, [...] is my mason partner or something like that. So if zeks dies, and then two people try to claim to be his mason partner, we can use that to verify it?
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On July 02 2010 13:37 Korynne wrote:
I mean look at Qatol, he's like well known awesome amazing top notch player. He asked town to claim their numbers in PYP, nothing about their roles, and everyone had to freak out like crazy. And that's Qatol.
Using my previous games to help push your cause! I feel so.... used!
+ Show Spoiler +Note: I have no idea who has what role. Don't read anything into this.
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On July 02 2010 13:41 Korynne wrote:
What if zeks says that, and then we're all like omg what if he's jail keeper? And then he goes on and says he's mason to make himself safe. If the real masons saw that, maybe the real masons both disagrees with L's plan and think that zeks could be jail keeper or some important role we don't want to kill? Just a possibility to throw out there.
Also, we can confirm that people can PM each other by asking one of them to post an encrypted message in the thread, and then later on if we need to confirm the other guy (ex. if the first guy dies and the second guy is about to be lynched) we can have him give us the key to the message and the message will decrypt to say like, [...] is my mason partner or something like that. So if zeks dies, and then two people try to claim to be his mason partner, we can use that to verify it?
We can just use his post death post to do that.
Anyways, sleep time for me.
As a parting topic; the roleblocker 'plan' isn't dead either. There are a few variations I can think of using ordered, random or voted groups to create roleblock patterns. I haven't thought everything through regarding those, but we have the night to talk about it too, so no huge rush.
G'night bromigos.
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On July 02 2010 13:41 Korynne wrote:
What if zeks says that, and then we're all like omg what if he's jail keeper? And then he goes on and says he's mason to make himself safe. If the real masons saw that, maybe the real masons both disagrees with L's plan and think that zeks could be jail keeper or some important role we don't want to kill? Just a possibility to throw out there.
Meh, WIFOM.
Also, we can confirm that people can PM each other by asking one of them to post an encrypted message in the thread, and then later on if we need to confirm the other guy (ex. if the first guy dies and the second guy is about to be lynched) we can have him give us the key to the message and the message will decrypt to say like, [...] is my mason partner or something like that. So if zeks dies, and then two people try to claim to be his mason partner, we can use that to verify it?
No objections here.
We can just use his post death post to do that.
I think the idea is to keep the second mason hidden until he's at L-1. If the first mason was to die, that would mean the Jailer was killed so it would be in our best interest for Zeks not to reveal the second mason in a death post.
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On July 02 2010 13:25 L wrote:
YI, I want you to explain in detail why you don't buy it, because you just made the fishiest post in the first 25 pages by far. It's really quite simple. I call out zeks for being abnormal and quiet. zeks responds by posting in a manner that advocates your plan and effectively clears him if the masons agree with me that your plan is not better than remaining secret.
Now zeks is in a position where you will defend him and the jailkeeper may protect him (and so he can never be DT'd). Even with this, I'm not sure that it's best for a real mason to come out if zeks is lying.
Your plan was only effective if you had town alignment on it before a mason coming forward. There definitely was not alignment on it. At this point, even if I agreed with you, it doesn't mean the masons do. So now the whole thing is fishy.
All this being said, it only screws the town over somewhat. The question is whether the jailkeeper wants to commit to protecting zeks. If zeks is for real, obviously we want to cover. If zeks is a fake (and if he were, I would figure him to either be traitor or goon, not godfather), we'll be wasting a bunch of jailkeeper actions up until when the real masons decide to come out.
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That's ridiculous YI. The masons would never let Zeks run wild acting as one of them. Fundamental flaw in your reasoning.
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We can't just say that youngminii. Maybe /you/ would never let Zeks do that if you were the mason. But masons can talk to each other and they know more than we do as town by knowing each others roles so they might decide it's a good idea depending on what they know. Maybe one of them's a roleblocker and so they'll just roleblock zeks and see what happens and tell us the results tomorrow.
You can't just say, oh masons would never do that. The whole point is that people kind of all do whatever, they don't really listen to you. I guess I'm finally starting to get it. Somebody is not going to like whatever plan whoever puts out, and if that person is the mason, and convinces the other mason. Well we would have zeks running around while everyone thinks he's a mason. I mean I'd say 80% chance he's mason, we just have to keep that 20% in mind if anything weird shows up.
Also like I said, zeks, you should post an encrypted message in the thread, and give the key to your mason partner. If you die and we ever need to verify your partner, we will be using that key to do it.
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On July 02 2010 14:24 Korynne wrote:
Also like I said, zeks, you should post an encrypted message in the thread, and give the key to your mason partner. If you die and we ever need to verify your partner, we will be using that key to do it.
Yes, definitely do this.
As for your theory about zeks potentially being scum... I find it highly unlikely. It would be a very risky move for mafia. What are they going to gain right now if masons don't contest his claim? one night of having him jailed? Kinda not worth it at all for giving up a scum when one of the masons comes out tomorrow to say he's full of it.
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Do what Korynne said.
Also, guys, too much paranoia around zeks being mason. I'll say this once: IF YOU KNOW ZEKS ISN'T MASON (as in, you are), CLAIM NOW.
Come on, mafia isn't going to pull a dumb stunt like that on day 1 when there's only one of him, and the GF sure as hell isn't going to try.
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I dont get how Ls plan interfears with K:s.
I admit that K:s plan is maybe still flawed but its still the best one out there. And I think that it will give us an advantage if it is used correctly. The jailer complicates things since we would ideally want him to protect both the mason and the roleblocked person. I guess we have to go with mason for now.
- Let DTs investigate whoever they want.
-Lets lynch an inactive/someone who poses scummy
- If there is no kill from the mafia roleblock second day as well.
I think we should go with this plan til we can find a better one.
also I propose:
# Roleblock YellowInk
# Lynch Abenson or ElyAs
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The masons should claim now I think if not Zeks is one of them.
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There are serious issues if you think masons allowing scum to run around with a false claim is okay.
Hence, I vote to roleblock yellowink.
I don't really care who we lynch if it's an inactive.
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Glad we're agreeing to use Korynne's RB plan in addition to the mason one - obviously they aren't mutually exclusive. At the end of the day keep in mind that, while we can dedicate considerable resources to these plans, they are not "game solvers" but "odds improvers"- old school post analysis or a DT check will probably still carry the day.
Using the mason as an impartial judge is fine, but still relies on their sound judgement. Information-wise they do have a small advantage over the rest of us: knowledge of / the ability to communicate with one other person. This is not a huge bit of help when it comes to improving our odds, but it's something. Perhaps Chez had a different idea on how to use the masons - he mentioned "rushing" the mafia in his original post but never fully developed that suggestion. I'd love to hear more about the "rush".
The RB plan I like a bit more as it could buy us a bit more time for checks, as far as I can tell.
Assuming zeks is confirmed, I also believe that as of now (ie: on day 1) Korynne and BM are town. We already know BrownY is town because of the computer access slip-up. youngminii and YellowInk make way too many careless mistakes to my mind to be GF... so I would cross them off the list as well. L / Chezinu... moderately helpful and not out of character. I see no reason to push for lynching them on day 1, but would not necessarily remove them from the GF list.
Thegilaboy seems to purposely do just enough to stay off the radar with weak posts like this:
On July 02 2010 12:09 Thegilaboy wrote:
So zeks will be our friendly townie leader? Sounds good to me, thank god he wasn't claiming jail keeper lol.
Which of the following should we base our lynch vote on:
1. Scumminess of posting
2. Inactivity
3. Likelihood they were the first mafia recruit
4. Some other factor
Inactives: Abenson, ElyAs.
TL;DR - I still think we should use the RB plan. Based on the little info we now have, I will vote for one of Thegilaboy, Abenson or ElyAs.
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Wait so Qatol is an crooked-evil-yet-green-town-aligned Lawyer?
Also reading this thread makes it seem like my mind wants to leave my body.
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i'm going to vote with zeks i guess since i feel like he is likely town until we have a counter claim
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zeks, who are you going to vote for?
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On July 02 2010 09:35 Divinek wrote:
oh my god ive been working 12 hour shifts and just been skimming to stay alive i will post something more useful after i sift through all these new pages, of which i assume are 70% bm spam Still need to hear from you. Moving vote here until satisfied. Work sucks. =\
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On July 02 2010 14:24 Korynne wrote:
Also like I said, zeks, you should post an encrypted message in the thread, and give the key to your mason partner. If you die and we ever need to verify your partner, we will be using that key to do it. I agree with this. But mind you, everyone, that if zeks isn't a mason, he's probably either the traitor (in which case no one will pick up his key - which is fine), or the goon (in which case he'll pass the key on to his team tomorrow). So the key won't hold too much weight until we have a coroner check out zeks' corpse.
Because of this fact, you could say that the key holds weight if someone decodes it since it's putting scum at risk whenever a coroner flips zeks' corpse. However, the tool would still be there for the goon to use should they desire to put weight into some particular argument at some particular time if this came up.
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On July 02 2010 16:22 YellowInk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 14:24 Korynne wrote:
Also like I said, zeks, you should post an encrypted message in the thread, and give the key to your mason partner. If you die and we ever need to verify your partner, we will be using that key to do it. I agree with this. But mind you, everyone, that if zeks isn't a mason, he's probably either the traitor (in which case no one will pick up his key - which is fine), or the goon (in which case he'll pass the key on to his team tomorrow). So the key won't hold too much weight until we have a coroner check out zeks' corpse. Because of this fact, you could say that the key holds weight if someone decodes it since it's putting scum at risk whenever a coroner flips zeks' corpse. However, the tool would still be there for the goon to use should they desire to put weight into some particular argument at some particular time if this came up.
I think the point is more that if the 2nd mason is going to be lynched, they can decode using the PM'd key to prove their innocence.
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EPT
