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On May 05 2012 10:43 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 10:41 redFF wrote:
Didn't people get the hint after his last game went on for 5 days with no chance of a town win? Don't start that shit again. There was a chance of a town win, and as most people agreed (you obviously excluded), the only proper course of action was to play the game out.
The whole point is is that it was an obvious flaw in the rules and you should have acted appropriately and intervened as a mod. But I agree, let's not start this shit again.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On May 05 2012 10:44 redFF wrote:(from the op) Show nested quote +There will be no warnings for misbehavior, only forced replacement or modkill. He said in the rules he can modkill you when he wants, how he wants for whatever reason. You can't really complain. That said, I don't think games with weird rules like the above should be banlist approved.
I would say then that we are in agreement. I don't deny iGrok, as the host, has the right to modkill at his discretion within his rules. I believe a warning would be entirely appropriate. I do not believe I deserve a ban.
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United States22154 Posts
Note to self to look at this tomorrow and update the mafia sticky
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On May 05 2012 10:42 iGrok wrote:
There is a difference between playing aggressively and calling people worthless, posting gifs, saying things like "lol this kid" (twice in 30 minutes) and "come at me bro", statements which contribute nothing and have no purpose other than to piss people off. Your "playstyle" revolved around pissing people off and I warned the thread that bad behavior would be punished multiple times, including a warning that Mementoss had 1 minute to apologize or be modkilled. Clearly I was about to start modkilling players for bad behavior. So while yes, I was inconsistent in that I grew more strict as the game went on, I indicated this clearly in the thread.
This argument is good enough for me. I agree with a ban. I believe that players are too aggressive/mean to each other in the games these days. And it's pretty clear that iGrok was warning people for posting aggressively. Don't think of it as the ban list supporting a certain interpretation of the behavior rules, think of it as the ban list supporting the host's ability to control their thread. In this instance, iGrok warned the thread multiple times about acting aggressively and BH ignored that. iGrok shouldn't have to warn each user individually about their posting - it should have been clear that he was cracking down on the personal attacks and pointless aggression. Attack arguments, not people. You definitely crossed the line.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I did not ignore the warnings-- my play during Day 2 was substantially less aggressive than my D1. Play. Specifically regarding things like "lol this kid" and "come at me bro"--
The post in which I said "come at me bro" was like a page-long case:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=52#1033
+ Show Spoiler +On April 24 2012 18:40 BlazingJitsu wrote:Ottoxlol is scum. He's scum because of the FASHION in which he voted VE, and the way he hedged going into it-- and the way he's addressed the VE wagon since daybreak. Therefore, he has earned my ire. Here is the case.
Examining the VE wagon, the vote for him that stands out the most is Ottoxlol's vote. Let's take a look: Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 16:36 Ottoxlol wrote:
He has 5 votes right now against marv's 6.
Is he a good player?
He argued we shouldn't give any info to the scum then claim he's a JK.
If he did not claim and we lynch marv or anyone, then scum wouldnt kill him because he had votes.
This contradiction is enough for me to vote VE, everyone saying he is a good player, if he is indeed town JK he shouldn't have played this way. So I trust you guys on that he is good also that means he is a scum.
##Vote: VisceraEyes
This is a bullshit reason for voting VisceraEyes. If we take a look at it at it's core, he's basically saying "VE played in a sub-optimal way" as the basis for his case, but take a look at how he finishes his little case summary: Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 16:36 Ottoxlol wrote:
This contradiction is enough for me to vote VE, everyone saying he is a good player, if he is indeed town JK he shouldn't have played this way. So I trust you guys on that he is good also that means he is a scum.
He closes off his case by trying to abdicate responsibility for it. He knows VE is going to flip town, and he wants to blame other people when it happens without sounding inconsistent. Now, on its own, maybe this wouldn't be so bad. I mean, it's scummy as fuck, but maybe we have bigger targets, like Marv? Well, let's take a look on what Ottoxlol has been doing to "scumhunt" since D1: Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 15:52 Ottoxlol wrote:
I havent finished reading everything, but so far I had an idea
I thought I will write down the VE voters relationships maybe we can figure something out.
Sentinel attacked BM
Ottox did not attack anyone from this grp
marv attacked Zeph
BM defending Zeph and marv
laya attacking marv, defending zeph
Zeph attacking BM, and marv
I think this will not make a strong read, but I try
If Sentinel is scummy, we should investigate Zeph and vice versa
If laya is scummy we should investigate Zeph and vice versa
If marv is scummy we should investigate BM and vice versa
.
So my read is there are 0 or 2 scums in the VE voter group, maybe we can use this later
This says absolutely nothing. This is Ottoxlol trying to push people who were on the VE wagon with some unhelpful WIFOM. Paying close attention to this post, you'll realize he doesn't actually push anyone as scum. This is unhelpful shitty dick play. This is scum play that he set up D1. This is Ottoxlol trying to pool the proverbial wool over the town's eyes by trying to appear helpful. Ottoxlol, you didn't want to take responsibility for your vote on VE, and you don't want to take responsibility for pushing others on his wagon. Your posts are waffling, unhelpful, and scummy. ##vote: OttoxlolCome at me bro
-Blazinghand
This is an entirely appropriate use of "come at me bro"
Granted, I did use "lol this kid" as a 1-line post-- in response to a 1-line post from another player. Was it the most appropriate of responses? Probably no. But was it banworthy? Certainly not.
I'd like to again state that I did not ignore the warnings, and in fact toned down my aggression a great deal in D2.
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I realize. I read the posts before making that post. You also said stuff like "this is unhelpful shitty dick play" in that post. I think your post was over the line and iGrok had made it clear that such posting was inappropriate. The video meme was also over the line.
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I disagree with Blazinghand ban. The only bad thing I've seen him do was calling one guy "that kid" twice.
Aggressive play?
Also remember gtrsrs? (I miss that guy he was a bro)
He was an aggressive player but the only thing making a difference between BH and him was that BH used images and gtrsrs did not. Since there was no rule regarding pictures in iGrok's game the ban is not justified.
Oh, and this!
So, no. Make a rule about pictures and we're set.
Pissing people off is a good tactic to see what people are hiding so I consider it something normal.
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We had people quit TL mafia because gtrsrs was too aggressive.... I think intentionally pissing people off to get a read on them is not a valid playstyle and should be punished accordingly. It is not worth it to sacrifice our player base just to accomodate an obnoxious playstyle.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 07 2012 01:03 Qatol wrote:
We had people quit TL mafia because gtrsrs was too aggressive.... I think intentionally pissing people off to get a read on them is not a valid playstyle and should be punished accordingly. It is not worth it to sacrifice our player base just to accomodate an obnoxious playstyle.
Agreed.
That being said, I'm not sure if Blazinghand's behavior merits a ban or not, but I'm almost always willing to defer to the hosts judgement(especially an experienced host).
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On May 07 2012 01:03 Qatol wrote:
We had people quit TL mafia because gtrsrs was too aggressive.... I think intentionally pissing people off to get a read on them is not a valid playstyle and should be punished accordingly. It is not worth it to sacrifice our player base just to accomodate an obnoxious playstyle.
Yeah gtrsrs was borderline dickish, but the point is he did not get banned. BH wasn't dickish at all. As I said, the only wrong thing is calling other guy "that kid" twice. We can't just forbid players from playing aggressively. It might be part of someone's game plan.
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As an impartial observer (lol) of LIII, I agree with Qatol for a change. While it's not uncommon for players to step over the line from aggressive scumhunting to abuse, roughly half of BH's day 1 posts contained unnecessary personal abuse. If there's any posting standard at all, BH violated it repeatedly.
There's an increasing divide in apparent behaviour standards between newbie and non-newbie games. Players come from newbie games where the principle of "attack the posts, not the player" applies, and then get viciously insulted because they dared to question a veteran's grossly anti-town posting style. It's ugly to watch, and it must be uglier to play.
On a practical note, it may help to include examples of exactly what isn't considered acceptable play in the general rules, because there's a serious problem with inconsistency.
On the subject of moderator inconsistency, I do think that iGrok should have modkilled BH halfway through day 1, given that the game's rules explicitly stated "no warnings for misbehavior". That's a secondary point, however, and in no way excuses BH's behaviour.
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On May 07 2012 02:14 jaj22 wrote:
On a practical note, it may help to include examples of exactly what isn't considered acceptable play in the general rules, because there's a serious problem with inconsistency.
Hmm this might work. I guess one thing we could consider (so hosts still can control the kind of behavior they want to see in their games) is to have an area for host-specific examples of inappropriate posts and then just have a list of potential examples? Its kinda hard to be more specific than that while allowing hosts to control their games. We would definitely need to work on a list as a community though.
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@Jaj: If I had modkilled everyone who misbehaved Day 1, the game would have ended. Perhaps that would have been preferable though.
@Kurumi
Borderline?
And of course you of all people would say that provocation is a completely valid playstyle. And I'm not even going to dispute that because it isn't worth the time and effort.
The Provocation/hyperaggression playstyle leads to worse games and more hatred. You are certainly free to allow anything you want in your games, but in my games (and I believe more and more hosts will follow this in the future, like GMarshal), provocation as a tactic will not be allowed. Just as Card-counting is a "valid strategy", but you aren't allowed to do so at casinos, strategies that ruin the game for others should be forbidden, and I made it clear that they were forbidden in my game.
Specifically relating to this ban, you are completely incorrect that "the only wrong this is calling the other guy "that kid". Here are some examples:
+ Show Spoiler +- This sentence is bad and I am an objectively worse person for having to have read it.
- Typically this is where I say "you can do better, marv" but really, ANYONE could do better. You're shitting on the town and trying to build up a post count without saying ANYTHING.
- @Marvellosity: Come at me bro.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UoMR0.gif)
- I'm not some shitty dick player who writes massive illegible posts
- Your questions are inane, much like yourself
- This post doesn't DO ANYTHING TO HELP THE TOWN IN EVEN THE MOST REMOTE FASHION.
- OH HEY THIS PARAGRAPH LITERALLY SAYS NOTHIGN. THIS PARAGRAPH LITERALLY SAYS NOTHING
- PARAGRAPH THREE YOU PUNK ASS MOTHER BONERIZERS
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RIH0y.jpg)
- DO A PARAGRAPH BY PARAGRAPH ANALYSIS. DO ANY ANALYSIS. DO ANYTHING AT ALL USEFUL. ANYTHING.
- Marv is unhelpful shitty dick scum
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4znk4.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GxTnK.gif)
- I'd rather be annoying than dull. Cause, well, that's you. Dull. not bright. slow.
- So I don't know why the dicks you guys are suddenly sitting on marv's cock.
- literally everything he posted before my last pont was shitty dick scum posting (mixed in with some crybaby whining about how I called him out about his shitty dick scum posting)
- ##still definitely voting the dicks out of: Marv
- I've actually been riding his ass, not his dick.
- VE is a moron and a giver-upper but he does this as town
- what should we do with a player who's being utterly worthless
- In this post Layabout avoids addressing the issue but he does be worthless
- Picture of himself eating a hat that is now unavailable
- Come at me bro
- lol this kid
- that's also my response to your "defense" btw
- lol this kid
- a shitty waffling catch-all shit-fling at the other wagon members
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fOwdC.gif)
So yes, he did get better as the game moved on and stopped using the phrase "shitty dick", but his behavior was still bad. I do not care if pissing people off is a valid tactic, it ruins the game for others.
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Well, then we should ban Ace and Palmar right away too.
EDIT:
Also I will never agree with hosts having drastically different rules than those stated in the standard OP if they want to use TL ban list.
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On May 07 2012 03:00 Kurumi wrote:
Well, then we should ban Ace and Palmar right away too.
and me, bugs, perm coag, jackal, kurumi, syllo, sandro depending on the game, mig, sometimes sheth, erandor, etc......
Hosts need to clearly establish with examples in every OP what is and isn't a violation of aggression standards. Every host has a different standard and given the fact in most games people will be far more offensive than "come at me bro" or "that kid" hosts should be happy with just how far as a forum overall we have come.
As for more hosts in the future moving towards completely nice, friendly 0 aggression games? Some will some wont.
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As a note, just seeing half those gifs would be why I would put a ban or the like on bh though. But I have personal hatred of gifs.
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TL Mafia games should be held to TL posting standards, at least until people can differentiate between attacking the argument and attacking the player.
If you want to have games which allow provocation, fine, but that should be the exception rather than the rule.
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On May 07 2012 03:30 iGrok wrote:
TL Mafia games should be held to TL posting standards, at least until people can differentiate between attacking the argument and attacking the player.
If you want to have games which allow provocation, fine, but that should be the exception rather than the rule.
I do agree with you for the most part, however making comments along the lines that are slightly borderline periodically to put someone on tilt I think should be fine. If a player continuously does it continuously then that is something to possibly be looked at. The issue also comes down to each host being able to agree to a specific standard. The issue with that is you have hosts on polar opposite spectrums on what is and isn't acceptable.
As a note, I also firmly believe aggression and to a degree "attacks" should be allowed as they are a mechanism that certainly helped me grow as a player as it gave me a reason to keep pushing forward to get better. Obviously not everyone is the same, but if there is very little confrontation (which is what aggression usually sparks) then people get bored.
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The Provocation/hyperaggression playstyle leads to worse games and more hatred. Oh opinions!
Honestly iGrok can do whatever he wants in his games.
But if a game uses a non-official OP and a non-official ruleset which includes "I can modkill you whenever I want with no warning for what I deem to be unacceptable behavior", it should not be tied to the banlist at all.
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On May 07 2012 05:23 redFF wrote:Show nested quote + The Provocation/hyperaggression playstyle leads to worse games and more hatred. Oh opinions! Honestly iGrok can do whatever he wants in his games. But if a game uses a non-official OP and a non-official ruleset which includes "I can modkill you whenever I want with no warning for what I deem to be unacceptable behavior", it should not be tied to the banlist at all.
I believe He did warn though
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EPT
