Its like playing the first 30 minutes of the champions league final indoors or on sand. It makes absolutely zero sense to do it. That is not what they get paid for, not what they practiced, and a final should showcase the best available teams and play in what they are best at.
this isn't much of a counter. It is the expectation of the norm. I might as well say that it made absolutely zero sense for boxer to use defensive structures to exploit his opponent in the finals of a broodwar tournament, because that's clearly not what a finals SHOULD look like.
Yes, I am aware there is a significant difference in that boxer didn't agree with yellow to play cheese games, but the point is that it is my and your opinion what a finals should or should not look like. It is not codified anywhere, and frankly we do not know when someone might come up with another boxer bunker rush. I would prefer, however, that even failed attempts to generate such a non-conventional scenario are treated with a little more respect than this.
All that the finals of a tournament must be is within the rules, and carried out in an atmosphere of sportsmanship. If the rules fail to generate the sort of games that *should* be had, then it is the fault of the rules, not the players.
While it might not be in the rules, I think most people would agree that playing ARAM isn't an ideal strategy in league of legends. It's a bit different I think than the Boxer scenario. I don't see how, if you REALLY want to win a game of league, you'd never ever recall to the fountain to heal because you want to ensure the enemy can get kills too.
There's certain strategies/ideas in league that have formed that are fairly concrete and won't change. If you want to win, you should probably try to get more kills/gold than the enemy. There were moments in the ARAM where scarra or someone else on dig would literally just run into the enemy team to kill themselves so they could go back and spend their money. This strategy makes literally no sense if you are trying to win the game.
I like some of the basketball comparisons throughout the thread. Theres a time and place for having fun and a time and place for hard competition. This past season, the Miami Heat played the Oklahoma City Thunder in the finals. I spent over $2000 dollars to go to game 2 of the finals. Theres nothing in the rules saying OKC or Miami HAD to play defense throughout the game vs just making spectacular offensive dunks, etc. However, I would have been very disappointed if I had watched the game and neither team gave it their all. Especially in the Finals, where they have fought hard matches against other teams to even get there.
In the NBA, the All Star game/weekend allows for players to joke around/have fun within a game of basketball. You often see scores of 150+ points for both teams because neither wants to really play a real game (defense, etc). Its a show, not a competition. Its a chance for fans to see the players having fun and showing some skills. An equivalent event in league of legends would be great to see. I believe at IPL they had a few "just for fun" show matches or fan matches. However, MLG was not putting on a "for fun" tournament.
I don't think they should really be punished, and I don't think it really matters, but I am a bit disappointed in the teams.
EDIT: To clarify, I realize the ARAM has nothing to do with this situation (dig/crs not getting the prize money), but I think the ARAM brings up an interesting discussion.
On August 27 2012 23:47 torg wrote: It seems that people dont know the reason for MLG withdrawing prize money. it was NOT because of the ARAM itself. It was because they made a deal splitting the prizemoney. This is called matchfixing in other sports, but i no longer think of LOL as an esports at all.
MLG will probably add into player registration terms for next event that no aram or other bs is allowed.
after watching travis' explanation video, it seems as if the VP of MLG was confused as to what it effectively meant to ARAM because he doesn't play league of legends. His tweet, in which he says that "everyone in the audience knew they were colluding," only makes sense if the "collusion" that he's talking about is the ARAM part. So MLG is mad that these two teams aren't taking things seriously and decides to punish them. They use the most evil sounding word to describe what they're doing: "collusion."
Posts from guys like Redbeard are probably misinformed--it's very hard to get an official word on this because the information is spread across so many different websites. Additionally, Riot wouldn't make an accusation of collusion as a post on a message board, they make it in a big
Curse has said that they did not agree to throw the match beforehand in both of their videos. If they lied about this and continued to lie after they were caught, it would be a really huge deal and essentially no organization would have any reason to trust them at all; considering they are among the world's biggest teams, it would hurt the reputation of all LoL teams and cripple it as an esport for years.
You know, I was very much entertained by the ARAM, but I can also 100% see why the ruling was made. I was wondering during the game how it didn't count as match fixing, despite the fact that I was laughing my ass off. It was obviously something they agreed to do, it was clearly a bit trolly.
I'd say the best thing to do is find a way to show some support for the teams if you liked it, and accept the ruling, because it most certainly wasn't as tryhard competitive as I'd expect, regardless of being awesome.
ARAM is on rerun right now and by the way crumbzz confirmed for worst ashe ever dont think he hit a single arrow lol.
@ Jinglehell now that you menton it and I think about it, agreeing on an aram before the game is kinda matchfixing/colluding already, didnt see it from that point of view so far.
After seeing MLG arena few weeks ago I was really starting to enjoy and get into LoL and coming around to the fact it was growing as an esport. Now this? If your players/teams don't even take the game seriously, it doesn't bode well for it growing. You bet your ass the Koreans would never have pulled that shit. This scene still has so far to go, if it even gets that chance. So much immaturity and unprofessional conduct, from interviewing pillows at a live event to colluding finals and playing joke games on the main stage of the biggest American Esports event. It may go over well with hardcore players or nerdy kids, but it isnt competition and what professional esports is about. Reminds me a ton of the WoW arena scene, and we saw how that turned out. I'd like to see harsher punishment and see RIOT ban them for the rest of the year, but they want their money too badly to do that. LoL needs to learn from how shit is done in starcraft and in the Asian scenes. Current behavior just shows the whole world its a bunch of nerdy immature kids playing around like they try to report all the time and it effects/hurts not just LoL but esports in general. Get your act together!
Way I see it, if they'd decided to just go all mid, but still made competitive, rational picks, it MIGHT have not been on the same level. But having played a few ARAMs with friends, I know exactly how much the game can be decided at the character select screen when you're not picking.
Playing a throwaway game, entertaining as it may be, is borderline. If, as has been said, they had agreed to split the prize pool and then did it, it IS essentially match fixing. Even if they hadn't played the ARAM, planning to split the money kills the competition, but adding in the visible troll factor just made it something that they had to do something about, to preserve the integrity of the competition.
If they'd played the hell out of the series, and then privately, quietly split the money, the lack of attention might have made nobody give a shit. But when they flagrantly demonstrate that they aren't taking the final seriously, MLG has to do something to preserve their "competitive" reputation. It's not Major League Trolling, and they've probably got something in their own sponsorship agreements defining terms for distribution of prize money, that they have to honor. It may be gaming, but it's also a business, and has to be treated like one if it's going to grow.
On August 28 2012 00:25 AsnSensation wrote: ARAM is on rerun right now and by the way crumbzz confirmed for worst ashe ever dont think he hit a single arrow lol.
@ Jinglehell now that you menton it and I think about it, agreeing on an aram before the game is kinda matchfixing/colluding already, didnt see it from that point of view so far.
Not hitting an arrow in an ARAM should be some special kind of bad... I mean just firing down the center of the lane from fountain you would be bound to hit someone... X)
This was a brilliant PR move by Curse to release a statement apologizing for the ARAM but denying collusion. Gets people arguing over whether ARAM is a viable strategy or not, and gets them forgetting about the fact they've been accused of colluding to manipulate results. So, looking back at the post from MLG's own site and a representative: http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/an-important-message-regarding-mlg-summer-championship-league-of-legends/
Both sources cite that while the ARAM was unfortunate, it was NOT the reason for the DQ. It was the fact that collusion occured between the teams. The level of collusion is cause for speculation. Rumors have been floating around about splitting the prize pool afterwards. However, lets take the best case scenario, in that the teams only agreed on an ARAM, nothing more. It looks extremely shady regardless, if two teams agreed to something, outside of the presence of MLG officials, it raises the question as to what else they possibly could have agreed to. Even if they were well meaning with the ARAM, that is, just trying to have some fun and throw in some variety, it calls their character into question. I think everyone can agree, regardless of your stance on ARAM or whether or not collusion occurred, that this was an extremely stupid move on both teams part.
the rumor that Sirscoots was the witness is picking up steam, if that is actually true it makes me really uncomfortable with the whole situation, I really don't like/trust that guy.
On August 28 2012 01:34 Slusher wrote: the rumor that Sirscoots was the witness is picking up steam, if that is actually true it makes me really uncomfortable with the whole situation, I really don't like/trust that guy.
But MLG said they have witnesses, not one witness.
Regardless of whether the allegations of money being involved are true (which makes sense if they played a non-serious game in the finals), it still smacks of match fixing, due to the fact that the picks were non-competitive.
If they'd made sensible picks and ignored the meta to bumrush mid, I'd need evidence to feel comfortable with the ruling. But when the team comps would have looked trolly if they hadn't all gone mid, it demonstrated a clear intent to circumvent the intended competitive nature of the finals.
This, coupled with the likelihood of MLG having contractual obligations regarding "appropriate" use of their sponsors money, it's only reasonable to expect something to be done. The fact that the punishment is (relatively) light demonstrates lenience. It's not like either team was banned from the LoL circuit, or future MLGs, AFAIK. They got a smack on the wrist to let people know that situations like this can't be tolerated.
I may have laughed my ass off, but I can't fault the ruling, and I'm certainly not going to go on a witch hunt to find a reason to discredit people who may or may not have been among the witnesses.
With all the focus on the finals, people seem to be ignoring how Curse and Dig were playing poor to mediocre all weekend and still made the finals against teams that were desperately clawing for S2 qualifying points.
On August 28 2012 01:34 Slusher wrote: the rumor that Sirscoots was the witness is picking up steam, if that is actually true it makes me really uncomfortable with the whole situation, I really don't like/trust that guy.
But MLG said they have witnesses, not one witness.
That is my understanding, SirScoot was just more public about the whole issue when he heard about it. MLG does not like prize money splitting and frowns on the entire pratice. Esports, as a whole, has a history of shady dealings where people fixed matches, did not pay out prize money or simply never finished out events. In the past, some very not good people took sponsors money and just ran with it. MLG has had to overcome this preception of Esports as a whole and responds strongly to anything that would tarnish their event's reputation or make their sponsors question what their money is being used for.
I know LOL is really new to the scene, but people need to understand that prior to the SC2 era of Esports, people did some fucking shady, illegal stuff that no one want to be associated with. Groups like MLG are going to go atomic on anything like prize splitting or agreements to play in a specific fashion.
i only just started getting into LoL over the past few weeks, however I won't ever watch another game now. the fact someone would pull this off in the grand finals of one of the biggest tournaments is enough reason for me. i'll go back to counter strike and starcraft 2. what a joke of a game and a joke of a scene.
On August 28 2012 01:54 jimbob615 wrote: i only just started getting into LoL over the past few weeks, however I won't ever watch another game now. the fact someone would pull this off in the grand finals of one of the biggest tournaments is enough reason for me. i'll go back to counter strike and starcraft 2. what a joke of a game and a joke of a scene.
With all due respect, Blizzard IP Blacklisted its own Blizzcon Qualifer Torunament.
On August 28 2012 01:54 jimbob615 wrote: i only just started getting into LoL over the past few weeks, however I won't ever watch another game now. the fact someone would pull this off in the grand finals of one of the biggest tournaments is enough reason for me. i'll go back to counter strike and starcraft 2. what a joke of a game and a joke of a scene.
With all due respect, Blizzard IP Blacklisted its own Blizzcon Qualifer Torunament.
What does that have to do with anything? That was clearly an error, since black listing happens automatically if to many connections come from a single IP. It was a mistake(which happen in the real world) and Blizzard fixed it.
All of that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, at all.
On August 28 2012 01:54 jimbob615 wrote: i only just started getting into LoL over the past few weeks, however I won't ever watch another game now. the fact someone would pull this off in the grand finals of one of the biggest tournaments is enough reason for me. i'll go back to counter strike and starcraft 2. what a joke of a game and a joke of a scene.
On August 27 2012 21:42 Thereisnosaurus wrote: Man, I dislike this immensely. While I realise that MLG and co have a business to run and so on and so forth, Predeciding on an ARAM game to decide a set is not a sin, so long as both teams actually play to compete/win. The faux pas is on Riot/MLG here, because there is absolutely nothing in the game that says you can't do this, nor (I'm pretty damn sure) in MLG's rulebook.
Before you jump on me for saying this, consider that in this case the tournament managers are redefining the rules of the game simply because it did not give them the games they wanted. There is nothing in LoL that says you have to run in all three lanes with a jungler. In fact, there is NOTHING IN LOL THAT SAYS YOU HAVE TO PLAY A CERTAIN WAY AT ALL. There is what you can and what you can't do. This is the case with all videogames. This is what makes videogames particularly interesting and unique.
Worse, they decided to strip the teams of their prizes and prestige because they disagreed with the way they played. That shows intense disrespect for the players. Ultimately, without them we would have no tournaments, no pro scene, nothing. Perhaps afterwards everyone can agree that it would be better if this doesn't happen again, make some amendments and there we go. But saying 'you didn't play the way the audience felt you should play because you thought it would be more enjoyable' is absolutely, positively and completely not a justifiable reason for the action they took.
I should state that IF it comes out that the teams DID pre-determine a winner or both knowingly bias the competition one way or another, that is deserving of this punishment since that is clearly against both the spirit and letter of tournament rules. I don't feel that deciding to split the prize pool is so serious however. It's definitely not something you should do, but ultimately it's a moral judgement for the players. There's no caveat in the rules that say you can't do certain things with your money, and it's ultimately un-policeable in any case. It is not the place of MLG or Riot to take action in that case, it is the place of the community of players and spectators to make it clear that that sort of conduct is unacceptable through censure.
In any case, I think this is pretty bullshit scapegoating and does a lot to harm esports athletes. it may have some serious complications down the track.
Not responding to the whole post but why respect players who clearly do not respect the competition?
And if it isn't against the rules why is there a precedent for agreeing to split prize money before the match?
Making one ARAM match is not disrespecting the competition, it is giving a show and I thought it was quite a good show (the casters too, and most of my friends too).
I see this mentality a lot here and on reddit with people saying they enjoyed the Aram and didn't think it was a big deal because the players played it seriously and the crowd was entertained. If you enjoy that sort of thing, they have those...they're called show matches. Stuff like Aram have no place in serious tournaments. It's like playing mono battles or nexus wars in the finals of a starcraft tournament. It doesn't matter how serious and competitive the players playing mono battles are because it would still turn the finals into a joke no matter how entertaining it is. It's turning the nature of the game into something it is not.
Crowd enjoyment should have zero weight into deciding whether or not this was a good idea because the same crowd reaction could be achieved by having teams play an Aram show match and there would be zero issues doing that.
On August 27 2012 21:42 Thereisnosaurus wrote: Man, I dislike this immensely. While I realise that MLG and co have a business to run and so on and so forth, Predeciding on an ARAM game to decide a set is not a sin, so long as both teams actually play to compete/win. The faux pas is on Riot/MLG here, because there is absolutely nothing in the game that says you can't do this, nor (I'm pretty damn sure) in MLG's rulebook.
Before you jump on me for saying this, consider that in this case the tournament managers are redefining the rules of the game simply because it did not give them the games they wanted. There is nothing in LoL that says you have to run in all three lanes with a jungler. In fact, there is NOTHING IN LOL THAT SAYS YOU HAVE TO PLAY A CERTAIN WAY AT ALL. There is what you can and what you can't do. This is the case with all videogames. This is what makes videogames particularly interesting and unique.
Worse, they decided to strip the teams of their prizes and prestige because they disagreed with the way they played. That shows intense disrespect for the players. Ultimately, without them we would have no tournaments, no pro scene, nothing. Perhaps afterwards everyone can agree that it would be better if this doesn't happen again, make some amendments and there we go. But saying 'you didn't play the way the audience felt you should play because you thought it would be more enjoyable' is absolutely, positively and completely not a justifiable reason for the action they took.
I should state that IF it comes out that the teams DID pre-determine a winner or both knowingly bias the competition one way or another, that is deserving of this punishment since that is clearly against both the spirit and letter of tournament rules. I don't feel that deciding to split the prize pool is so serious however. It's definitely not something you should do, but ultimately it's a moral judgement for the players. There's no caveat in the rules that say you can't do certain things with your money, and it's ultimately un-policeable in any case. It is not the place of MLG or Riot to take action in that case, it is the place of the community of players and spectators to make it clear that that sort of conduct is unacceptable through censure.
In any case, I think this is pretty bullshit scapegoating and does a lot to harm esports athletes. it may have some serious complications down the track.
Not responding to the whole post but why respect players who clearly do not respect the competition?
And if it isn't against the rules why is there a precedent for agreeing to split prize money before the match?
Making one ARAM match is not disrespecting the competition, it is giving a show and I thought it was quite a good show (the casters too, and most of my friends too).
I see this mentality a lot here and on reddit with people saying they enjoyed the Aram and didn't think it was a big deal because the players played it seriously and the crowd was entertained. If you enjoy that sort of thing, they have those...they're called show matches. Stuff like Aram have no place in serious tournaments. It's like playing mono battles or nexus wars in the finals of a starcraft tournament. It doesn't matter how serious and competitive the players playing mono battles are because it would still turn the finals into a joke no matter how entertaining it is. It's turning the nature of the game into something it is not.
Crowd enjoyment should have zero weight into deciding whether or not this was a good idea because the same crowd reaction could be achieved by having teams play an Aram show match and there would be zero issues doing that.
Yeah. I don't get why people are treating enjoying it as something that should be mutually exclusive with understanding and agreeing with the ruling.
They're not mutually exclusive in the least. The ruling was correct, and the ARAM was hysterical. Made even more so by the casters not having a clue what was going on. Which should further demonstrate exactly how incorrect for the venue them doing it was.
EPT
