EPTOn August 28 2012 03:08 amd098 wrote:
wow. IPL following in their parents footsteps?
wow. IPL following in their parents footsteps?
Gaming site reports gaming news shocker.
[MLG] Summer Championships 2012 - Page 113
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Full.tilt
United Kingdom1709 Posts
Gaming site reports gaming news shocker. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 28 2012 04:01 JBright wrote: I don't see it as an arbitrary rule. Every sport requires teams to lock down their roster (including subs) for the matches so they can't just pick up a ringer to play for them. I am sure that Riot will have the teams lock down 5/6 players for PAX and the World Championships. If the players would rather pretend they cannot play just so they can hide strats, then they may as well take the forfeit for not having enough players on the field. So what if the teams decided to do a 5-way role swap? | ||
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BlueSpace
Germany2182 Posts
On August 28 2012 04:25 TheYango wrote: So what if the teams decided to do a 5-way role swap? Sundance gets a headache. | ||
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kainzero
United States5211 Posts
On August 28 2012 03:27 Mogwai wrote: except that this end of season game also had $8000 on the line, so it's hard to argue that it's really "meaningless." It was also the finals of a pretty large tournament. $8000 is pretty meaningless compared to the S2 final pot. MLG is a dwarf compared to regionals and worlds. It's unfortunate but that's how it works and it's understandable from a competitive standpoint. Again, if you're a fan of any of those teams, and they won while revealing tactics/tendencies that were exposed later in regionals, you'd be questioning those teams. On August 28 2012 03:30 corpuscle wrote: I've never seen a team not take it seriously towards the end of the season during "meaningless" games. Yes, they play their backups, and maybe hide some plays and strategies that they don't want studied for the playoffs, but those backups still try their absolute hardest to win. Play old strategies so that people don't get new info on you, fine, but playing an ARAM is just stupid and kind of offensive (and, if, as I believe, they were colluding, it's more proof of that, since they clearly had to talk and plan it ahead of time). Did they not try their hardest to win during the ARAM? You can hide strategies but you'll still have tendencies that can be studied if playing a real game. Like, say, if I play Vayne and I tend to dodge skillshots to the right, you can see that come out even if we're messing around and even if I play Graves in a real match. On August 28 2012 03:35 CeriseCherries wrote: ...i mean people paid money to see this. ARAM is fun and shit, but if they wanted to be good to the fans they could have played like a 2000$ aram showmatch after MLG if thats what they wanted to do... People pay money for those late season throwaway games too, and sometimes they don't even know if they're going to be throwaway games or not (especially true for the NFL). These people watching should know that regionals are next week and that there's a lot on the line. They already knew coming in that they may or may not get good quality games. On August 28 2012 03:36 Canucklehead wrote: The subs still play the same sport with the same rules and everything. They don't do a slam dunk contest in the first half or a home run derby the first 3 innings of a game. ARAM isn't LoL in its true form, so the analogy doesn't ring true. Why are people so technical about the finest details of an analogy? Analogies make the argument clearer, they aren't the argument. The point that they need to hide tactics or conserve energy for the near future is still legit. Whether they ARAM or quadlane or sub in some top solo queue players or some other form of sandbagging shouldn't matter, they're still sandbagging for a competitive reason and they would disappoint their fans if they played to their fullest and get killed next week. I'm pretty sure both teams were hoping that an ARAM would be more fun for their fans than playing a sandbag style of game. The backlash means they might have been wrong. | ||
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JBright
Vancouver14381 Posts
On August 28 2012 04:25 TheYango wrote: So what if the teams decided to do a 5-way role swap? Then they should do that. I just take issue with getting subs from the crowd to play for you. I don't mind if they play ARAM/Dominion or role swap as long as everyone knows what's going to happen before the match starts. People came into the finals expecting a normal SR game and they got something completely different instead. It's a good thing they only decided to play 1 game of ARAM because if I wanted to watch a bo5 of ARAM, I would go watch an ARAM tournament. On August 28 2012 04:45 Mogwai wrote: I'm pretty sure it was only game 1 because they almost certainly got a stern talking to in that 30 minute break between games 1 and 2. There's that too, but according to a lot of people the teams only agreed to play ARAM for 1 game during their dinner discussion. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On August 28 2012 04:39 JBright wrote: Then they should do that. I just take issue with getting subs from the crowd to play for you. I don't mind if they play ARAM/Dominion or role swap as long as everyone knows what's going to happen before the match starts. People came into the finals expecting a normal SR game and they got something completely different instead. It's a good thing they only decided to play 1 game of ARAM because if I wanted to watch a bo5 of ARAM, I would go watch an ARAM tournament. I'm pretty sure it was only game 1 because they almost certainly got a stern talking to in that 30 minute break between games 1 and 2. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On August 28 2012 01:54 jimbob615 wrote: i only just started getting into LoL over the past few weeks, however I won't ever watch another game now. the fact someone would pull this off in the grand finals of one of the biggest tournaments is enough reason for me. i'll go back to counter strike and starcraft 2. what a joke of a game and a joke of a scene. Honestly this MLG tournament is comparable to the last game of the regular season in the NFL. When teams run their second stringers and have their star players sit on the bench so they don't get hurt before the playoffs. That's why the two teams played an ARAM in game 1. That's why the two teams didn't bust out any crazy strategies and just played really standard stuff in the next four games. "MLG Summer Finals" doesn't hold that much weight in LoL due to the way circuit points and season championships work. I don't think anyone who watches LoL regularly is going to stop watching it because of this. And if I were you I wouldn't stop watching it because of this instance. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On August 28 2012 05:08 overt wrote: Honestly this MLG tournament is comparable to the last game of the regular season in the NFL. When teams run their second stringers and have their star players sit on the bench so they don't get hurt before the playoffs. That's why the two teams played an ARAM in game 1. That's why the two teams didn't bust out any crazy strategies and just played really standard stuff in the next four games. "MLG Summer Finals" doesn't hold that much weight in LoL due to the way circuit points and season championships work. I don't think anyone who watches LoL regularly is going to stop watching it because of this. And if I were you I wouldn't stop watching it because of this instance. Honestly, MLG was less important than that. It was basically game 4 of the preseason. | ||
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Highwayman
United States181 Posts
On August 28 2012 04:01 barbsq wrote: i honestly think that if mlg/riot had called them out on unsportsmanlike conduct or something like that (something relating to the spirit of the game) rather than matchfixing/collusion, then it would ring a lot more true, and I would feel a lot better about their choice of punishment. I think that the end result is something that had to occur, I just think that matchfixing seems a bit of a strong accusation, and if it were truly were matchfixing (which seems unlikely in the evidence given, but we'll see), then further punishment should actually be exacted, imo. Technically speaking, the players did conspire to subvert the rules of the game, and so they shouldn't be allowed to get away scot free, and the punishment given is a short-term, monetary one for curse and dignitas, and dignitas gets a little extra since they lose the chance to influence their seeding, and ofc both sustain a mark on their record, which is hard to quantify. They were not banned from further mlg's (unless that is a recent development i'm not aware of), and my understanding is that the circuit standings are not really affected by this result (ofc, again barring the situation where dignitas is unable to influence their seeding). In that light, I think the extent of the punishment was apt. I am simply concerned with the terms of the crime they used to justify the punishment. As someone that thought that the decision to even play the ARAM was really disappointing, if this punishment is purely for their agreement ahead of time to play it I can understand and accept that and honestly if I was protecting my brand like MLG and Riot are I would probably do the same thing. The problem is that MLG needs to clarify if that's what they mean by collusion, especially when you have people throwing around "match fixing", "splitting the pot", and "throwing games." Just using the term collusion without defining it was a really poor move. They shouldn't have had any staff members commenting on it at all and they shouldn't have even made that announcement on their website until they were prepared. I'm pretty confident someone will clear it up at some point but it's very apparent MLG as well as Riot failed pretty hard here. | ||
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maliceee
United States634 Posts
On August 28 2012 04:39 kainzero wrote: $8000 is pretty meaningless compared to the S2 final pot. MLG is a dwarf compared to regionals and worlds. It's unfortunate but that's how it works and it's understandable from a competitive standpoint. Again, if you're a fan of any of those teams, and they won while revealing tactics/tendencies that were exposed later in regionals, you'd be questioning those teams. Did they not try their hardest to win during the ARAM? You can hide strategies but you'll still have tendencies that can be studied if playing a real game. Like, say, if I play Vayne and I tend to dodge skillshots to the right, you can see that come out even if we're messing around and even if I play Graves in a real match. People pay money for those late season throwaway games too, and sometimes they don't even know if they're going to be throwaway games or not (especially true for the NFL). These people watching should know that regionals are next week and that there's a lot on the line. They already knew coming in that they may or may not get good quality games. Why are people so technical about the finest details of an analogy? Analogies make the argument clearer, they aren't the argument. The point that they need to hide tactics or conserve energy for the near future is still legit. Whether they ARAM or quadlane or sub in some top solo queue players or some other form of sandbagging shouldn't matter, they're still sandbagging for a competitive reason and they would disappoint their fans if they played to their fullest and get killed next week. I'm pretty sure both teams were hoping that an ARAM would be more fun for their fans than playing a sandbag style of game. The backlash means they might have been wrong. They didn't try at all in the ARAM. Dig could have ended it so many times and just goofed off. That was the point where it fell off for me. | ||
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SaWse
Belgium102 Posts
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GeorgeForeman
United States1746 Posts
As fans, you should be outraged by the blatant disrespect this shows to you. As tournament runners, MLG should be horrified both that participants think of them with such disdain and that so many fans don't seem to mind. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11749 Posts
They all equalize not making one game your top priority, and maybe playing subpar in that game to win something more important lateron, but lowering your chance to win now, with talking to the enemy team, saying "hey guys, we both don't really care about this, lets just do some random shit now that we are here". If you can't see the fundamental difference between the two, i can't understand you. One is a strategical choice, which might lower the quality of the game, but is overall still acceptable. It also allows others to make a different strategical choice, and thus win over the team that places itself at a disadvantage because they want to keep stuff hidden. This is also exactly what happens in all those weird sports analogies people throw around all day. This is fine. If you really want to play a team of eve, twitch, shaco, morde, Yi, sure, do that. You will probably be rolled by your enemies, or you are that much better than your enemies that you are just showing off, which is fine from time to time, too. You make a weird strategical choice, and have to live with the results. It still shows a bit of disrespect towards the tournament, but this is at the ok edge of the grey area. If, however, you make a deal with the enemy team beforehand that both of you will limit yourself to nonoptimal play, that is a completely different thing. It removes the negative effects that decision would have had, by making deals with the opponent, is awefully close to matchfixing or splitting price money in my opinion, and it makes a complete mockery of the tournament. This whole thing gets more complicated the more stupid your strategical choice becomes. If, for example, you decide to blatantly throw the game by just running towards the enemy base and not fight, ever, that is very shady. Firstly, noone knows if you did not have some kind of deal with your opponent, or were betting on them, or something like that. Secondly, it screws over the tournament organisator hardcore. Who will take their tournaments serious if stuff like that happens in it? Thus, it is in the tournament organisators natural interest to make people give their best to win games. If players obviously don't give a shit about the tournament they play in, the tournament organistors would be retarded not to punish them. | ||
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Kazeyonoma
United States2912 Posts
On August 28 2012 06:41 GeorgeForeman wrote: I think its moronic that people in this thread and at MLG think that an ARAM is "okay" or only worth a technical, especially in the finals. It's both teams collectively shouting at the top of their lungs, "THIS TOURNAMENT FINALS IS IRRELEVANT TO US AND WE DON'T GIVE A SHIT IF WE WIN." As fans, you should be outraged by the blatant disrespect this shows to you. As tournament runners, MLG should be horrified both that participants think of them with such disdain and that so many fans don't seem to mind. Agreed, as fans i don't understand it other than those who are supportive must like to troll so hard in games themselves that they think it's 'fun' and don't see the Integrity being broken to the fans, to the organizers, to the sponsors, to the teams themselves. I know Odee, and he would NOT be happy about this, and probably isn't. he works so hard to try to put competitive gaming on the map by running dignitas, and getting sponsors for his team, and managing them all when he could be making way more money doing a normal 'day job', and this is how his team repays him? disgracing the image he's worked so hard to create, and likewise putting them in the negative light? by being poor sportsman by doing a troll game? sure they 'tried hard' by going ARAM, just like i'm sure any team game can 'try hard' by going half court kicks only, or no goalie blocks, or 3 point shots only games would be reall.... hard. If you're a sponsor for a major company say Coca Cola, and you're on the fence already about putting your name and throwing money at this new thing that sounds promising called competitive gaming... and sponsoring X number of teams, but historically, the people involved are immature, and known to say/do things that aren't PR friendly, having something like this happen, seals the deal about not getting involved. Coca Cola doesn't need us, they'd like to get involved sure, but they absolutely don't HAVE to sponsor anyone in esports. But it's companies LIKE coca cola that esports/etc NEED to make it into a sustainable business. But hey, keep kidding yourselves that the ARAM game was legit, and that 'who cares!' what does it matter to you anyways, you play these games once in a blue moon, probably don't really care about win/losing, and while the concept of competitive gaming/esports is 'cool', you could honestly not care if it died or lasted, and probably haven't spent a dime to support the scene. Am i making a broad general statement here? Sure, but so are the supporters who are claiming this punishment is too harsh and collusion/$ sharing/throwing the game was 'okay'. | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
I think it's time to close this before it gets too ugly. | ||
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
On August 28 2012 07:57 HazMat wrote: Wow the LoL hate in this thread now..... I think it's time to close this before it gets too ugly. I'm just laughing at all the people who say "This never would have happened under KeSPA!". Anyone who actually remembers KeSPA would never wish that on any sport. | ||
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Canucklehead
Canada5074 Posts
On August 28 2012 07:24 Kazeyonoma wrote: Agreed, as fans i don't understand it other than those who are supportive must like to troll so hard in games themselves that they think it's 'fun' and don't see the Integrity being broken to the fans, to the organizers, to the sponsors, to the teams themselves. I agree. I don't follow the LoL scene much at all, but I've read this thread and the ones on reddit and it's disappointing to see the amount of people that don't think playing ARAM in the finals was a big deal at all and saying that they enjoyed it. I think this shows that the LoL scene has a lot of growing up to do and is no where near the professionalism of starcraft. Starcraft fans would not condone these actions if Leenock and First played monobattles for game 1 of their finals. There is a time and place for those kinds of things and during the finals of a serious tournament is not one of them. If you want to see things like that, watch a Day9 funday monday or watch the red bull lan next week in seattle. I've seen people argue that it was fun and people against it are trying to kill the essence of gaming, which is fun and critics are being too serious. That kind of mentality is why esports struggles to be taken seriously because if fans don't see a problem and immediately scream no fun police, then the players in the scene will never learn professionalism. Asking for professionalism does not mean killing fun or entertainment. | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
On August 28 2012 08:06 iGrok wrote: I'm just laughing at all the people who say "This never would have happened under KeSPA!". Anyone who actually remembers KeSPA would never wish that on any sport. Doubt any of them followed sc during kespa. All of these posters seem like typical sc2 players coming to shit on LoL. Nothing to do with the future of Esports. | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
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Thereisnosaurus
Australia1822 Posts
There are elements of both poor and good sportsmanship, respect and disrespect for the situation. There is not just a year or two, but literally millenia of formal sporting culture behind this that you are probably not acknowledging, where the idea of 'spectators as clients' is completely alien. There are commercial interests and marketing that have changed quite heavily the way we percieve esports, creating a successful business out of it. You should remember this as well, that unlike most tournaments in history, the impetus behind these games is not one of cultural or festive nature, but purely to make these guys lots of money. The entire LoL proscene is currently a funded marketing tool for riot. I'm trying to, and not doing a very good job of, exploring some of the complications this throws up. All I can say here is: don't drink the koolaid, man. Your head is in a place that these companies want it to be, where you value 'professionalism' over the core concepts that make a sport capable of supporting that professionalism in the first place. Where the players are essentially entertainers, not competitors. As much as the companies say they value true competition and so on, they only do so so long as it sells. If the scene ends up being as serious as WWF wrestling, they'll be ok with that, so long as it sells. Even Riot. The people who are feeding you these ideas of respect for fans, professionalism, taking things seriously, in absolutely no way believe them themselves (organisationally anyway, I'm sure individuals feel fairly strongly). On a lighter note, I think the most amusingly positive side of this all is the game probably completely ruined Elobuff's stats for the tournament for a bunch of players/champions. I wonder if that was partly the reason they did it, coz that's some trolling I can get behind  I 've seen people argue that it was fun and people against it are trying to kill the essence of gaming, which is fun and critics are being too serious. That kind of mentality is why esports struggles to be taken seriously because if fans don't see a problem and immediately scream no fun police, then the players in the scene will never learn professionalism. Asking for professionalism does not mean killing fun or entertainment. You have to realise that 'serious' sports have incredibly rigorous and formal competitive rulesets that include a code of conduct that carefully outlines, for example, what bringing the game into disrepute means. Admittedly in some of these there is a position of formal arbiter (eg, someone who decides if a competitor is violating a rule in a grey area), but that arbiter is typically very carefully recruited and trained to be neutral and rigorous in their duties, much in the same way that we have an independant judiciary whose job is to interpret and fairly apply the law. I think you'd be surprised at how much trolling would go on in the world of 'professional' sports if the tournaments and leagues were not very, very carefully constructed to prevent it. Ultimately, if your game/tournament CAN be trolled in a way that isn't clearly, explicitly against your tournament rules, it is the fault of the organiser, not the players. The biggest problem I have, and I think the general ARAM loving crowd have with this isn't that we think it wouldn't have been better to have a normal game, but that MLG/Riot are trying to pin this on the teams, rather than acknowledging a flaw in their ruleset. It's like a game designer banning people who spawn camp and then calling them bad players without acknowledging that they could just have easily made spawn camping impossible if they were a better designer. | ||
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