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On August 28 2012 21:55 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 21:16 Dan HH wrote:On August 28 2012 20:26 kidd wrote:
I don't mean to take sides, but honestly, it's just one aram game. The rest of the games were played seriously so it's not a fair or reasonable conclusion to assume they're splitting prize money from that. Also, anyone who watched the rest of the games would know they were playing seriously for the rest of the series. When it comes down to it, they already made a base amount of money at the least and $8000 after; taxes, team obligations, five way split, probably comes down to an insignificant amount of money. If saint chooses to, he can probably make more than that difference in a day of streaming which is just him streaming what he's already doing anyway.
The punishment is unfair especially when there is no solid proof other than assumptions and telephone. They played and earned 1st and 2nd place and there are no rules against playing a game less than seriously. Even if that was such a big issue, just void the result of that specific game, results are still the same. If you read the mlg rules, no rules were broken and the closest thing it came to was a technical foul which doesn't result in a DQ, even 3 technical fouls for league is only a one game penalty. Also, I feel no pity toward the rest of the teams who "played their hearts out". They simply need to get better to beat curse and dig. If you can't beat them, you can't dictate what they should and shouldn't do. This isn't some pussyfoot profession where mediocre is okay. You have to win to get what you want and what you feel you deserve.
In the end, professionalism is the only thing that was really an issue and it was only for that specific game and even though mlg and riot both have no grounds to punish on professionalism in this situation; curse has accepted the punishment and moved on. The teams/team owners should really be the only ones doing anything. If only dig did the same then everyone could move on. I suggest looking at it from the other perspective. This is a PR disaster for everyone involved, including MLG and Riot. You think they would have said anything if they weren't sure? They have absolutely nothing to gain from doing this, quite the contrary. Who fucking care about PR, we're a community, LOL is a great game I watch for the show and for the players I like, to root for the teams I follow. The day everything in lol will be controlled for "PR requirement" is the day LOL and the e-sport scene would have lost its soul. You see a PR disaster, I see dignitas and curse trying their best to give a good show to the audience, and that's good in my opinion - even if it is a failed attempt. Telling them "It was not a good idea, don't do it again" should be enough.
Not sure why you quoted my post, I wasn't talking about the ARAM. I meant that taking this decision put MLG and Riot in a bad spot so they must have been pretty sure about the other allegations since they have nothing to gain from the current situation.
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Wouldn't team management to some degree need to be involved in any prize splitting?
Sure, players can collude, but if prizes are given to management/organization then to players, it's a bit difficult to spread team to team.
SirScoots, for a man who has asked for patience when going after sponsors when things go awry, if you have falsely alleged and cost 2 teams that appear to have played 4 fully competive and 1 semi competitive game a nice total of 32k, I think there are going to be a few sparks that are flying.
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On August 28 2012 22:39 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 21:55 WhiteDog wrote:On August 28 2012 21:16 Dan HH wrote:On August 28 2012 20:26 kidd wrote:
I don't mean to take sides, but honestly, it's just one aram game. The rest of the games were played seriously so it's not a fair or reasonable conclusion to assume they're splitting prize money from that. Also, anyone who watched the rest of the games would know they were playing seriously for the rest of the series. When it comes down to it, they already made a base amount of money at the least and $8000 after; taxes, team obligations, five way split, probably comes down to an insignificant amount of money. If saint chooses to, he can probably make more than that difference in a day of streaming which is just him streaming what he's already doing anyway.
The punishment is unfair especially when there is no solid proof other than assumptions and telephone. They played and earned 1st and 2nd place and there are no rules against playing a game less than seriously. Even if that was such a big issue, just void the result of that specific game, results are still the same. If you read the mlg rules, no rules were broken and the closest thing it came to was a technical foul which doesn't result in a DQ, even 3 technical fouls for league is only a one game penalty. Also, I feel no pity toward the rest of the teams who "played their hearts out". They simply need to get better to beat curse and dig. If you can't beat them, you can't dictate what they should and shouldn't do. This isn't some pussyfoot profession where mediocre is okay. You have to win to get what you want and what you feel you deserve.
In the end, professionalism is the only thing that was really an issue and it was only for that specific game and even though mlg and riot both have no grounds to punish on professionalism in this situation; curse has accepted the punishment and moved on. The teams/team owners should really be the only ones doing anything. If only dig did the same then everyone could move on. I suggest looking at it from the other perspective. This is a PR disaster for everyone involved, including MLG and Riot. You think they would have said anything if they weren't sure? They have absolutely nothing to gain from doing this, quite the contrary. Who fucking care about PR, we're a community, LOL is a great game I watch for the show and for the players I like, to root for the teams I follow. The day everything in lol will be controlled for "PR requirement" is the day LOL and the e-sport scene would have lost its soul. You see a PR disaster, I see dignitas and curse trying their best to give a good show to the audience, and that's good in my opinion - even if it is a failed attempt. Telling them "It was not a good idea, don't do it again" should be enough. Not sure why you quoted my post, I wasn't talking about the ARAM. I meant that taking this decision put MLG and Riot in a bad spot so they must have been pretty sure about the other allegations since they have nothing to gain from the current situation.
It's just the word "PR" and "management" that we hear every time a situation cames up that exhaust me. If MLG and Riot made a mistake, then just apology and everybody will move on. Or maybe someone in this thread will call MLG's sponsors to put them in a bad spot ? oO
Mistakes are okay when you take responsability.
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On August 28 2012 23:32 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 22:39 Dan HH wrote:On August 28 2012 21:55 WhiteDog wrote:On August 28 2012 21:16 Dan HH wrote:On August 28 2012 20:26 kidd wrote:
I don't mean to take sides, but honestly, it's just one aram game. The rest of the games were played seriously so it's not a fair or reasonable conclusion to assume they're splitting prize money from that. Also, anyone who watched the rest of the games would know they were playing seriously for the rest of the series. When it comes down to it, they already made a base amount of money at the least and $8000 after; taxes, team obligations, five way split, probably comes down to an insignificant amount of money. If saint chooses to, he can probably make more than that difference in a day of streaming which is just him streaming what he's already doing anyway.
The punishment is unfair especially when there is no solid proof other than assumptions and telephone. They played and earned 1st and 2nd place and there are no rules against playing a game less than seriously. Even if that was such a big issue, just void the result of that specific game, results are still the same. If you read the mlg rules, no rules were broken and the closest thing it came to was a technical foul which doesn't result in a DQ, even 3 technical fouls for league is only a one game penalty. Also, I feel no pity toward the rest of the teams who "played their hearts out". They simply need to get better to beat curse and dig. If you can't beat them, you can't dictate what they should and shouldn't do. This isn't some pussyfoot profession where mediocre is okay. You have to win to get what you want and what you feel you deserve.
In the end, professionalism is the only thing that was really an issue and it was only for that specific game and even though mlg and riot both have no grounds to punish on professionalism in this situation; curse has accepted the punishment and moved on. The teams/team owners should really be the only ones doing anything. If only dig did the same then everyone could move on. I suggest looking at it from the other perspective. This is a PR disaster for everyone involved, including MLG and Riot. You think they would have said anything if they weren't sure? They have absolutely nothing to gain from doing this, quite the contrary. Who fucking care about PR, we're a community, LOL is a great game I watch for the show and for the players I like, to root for the teams I follow. The day everything in lol will be controlled for "PR requirement" is the day LOL and the e-sport scene would have lost its soul. You see a PR disaster, I see dignitas and curse trying their best to give a good show to the audience, and that's good in my opinion - even if it is a failed attempt. Telling them "It was not a good idea, don't do it again" should be enough. Not sure why you quoted my post, I wasn't talking about the ARAM. I meant that taking this decision put MLG and Riot in a bad spot so they must have been pretty sure about the other allegations since they have nothing to gain from the current situation. It's just the word "PR" and "management" that we hear every time a situation cames up that exhaust me. If MLG and Riot made a mistake, then just apology and everybody will move on. Or maybe someone in this thread will call MLG's sponsors to put them in a bad spot ? oO Mistakes are okay when you take responsability.
The best part about this is that both teams, Riot and MLG all agree that disqualification is the appropriate response to what happened. Every press release has the same information and outcome. The only people crying foul are the people saying "I thought the games were fun and ARAM is totally ok" and "I don't care about PR, we are a community". You know who cares about PR? The teams, their managers, and their sponsors. PR is how they earn their living and get support from sponsors. If you don't want to be involved with that, then don't watch MLG matches or follow that scene.
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On August 29 2012 02:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 23:32 WhiteDog wrote:On August 28 2012 22:39 Dan HH wrote:On August 28 2012 21:55 WhiteDog wrote:On August 28 2012 21:16 Dan HH wrote:On August 28 2012 20:26 kidd wrote:
I don't mean to take sides, but honestly, it's just one aram game. The rest of the games were played seriously so it's not a fair or reasonable conclusion to assume they're splitting prize money from that. Also, anyone who watched the rest of the games would know they were playing seriously for the rest of the series. When it comes down to it, they already made a base amount of money at the least and $8000 after; taxes, team obligations, five way split, probably comes down to an insignificant amount of money. If saint chooses to, he can probably make more than that difference in a day of streaming which is just him streaming what he's already doing anyway.
The punishment is unfair especially when there is no solid proof other than assumptions and telephone. They played and earned 1st and 2nd place and there are no rules against playing a game less than seriously. Even if that was such a big issue, just void the result of that specific game, results are still the same. If you read the mlg rules, no rules were broken and the closest thing it came to was a technical foul which doesn't result in a DQ, even 3 technical fouls for league is only a one game penalty. Also, I feel no pity toward the rest of the teams who "played their hearts out". They simply need to get better to beat curse and dig. If you can't beat them, you can't dictate what they should and shouldn't do. This isn't some pussyfoot profession where mediocre is okay. You have to win to get what you want and what you feel you deserve.
In the end, professionalism is the only thing that was really an issue and it was only for that specific game and even though mlg and riot both have no grounds to punish on professionalism in this situation; curse has accepted the punishment and moved on. The teams/team owners should really be the only ones doing anything. If only dig did the same then everyone could move on. I suggest looking at it from the other perspective. This is a PR disaster for everyone involved, including MLG and Riot. You think they would have said anything if they weren't sure? They have absolutely nothing to gain from doing this, quite the contrary. Who fucking care about PR, we're a community, LOL is a great game I watch for the show and for the players I like, to root for the teams I follow. The day everything in lol will be controlled for "PR requirement" is the day LOL and the e-sport scene would have lost its soul. You see a PR disaster, I see dignitas and curse trying their best to give a good show to the audience, and that's good in my opinion - even if it is a failed attempt. Telling them "It was not a good idea, don't do it again" should be enough. Not sure why you quoted my post, I wasn't talking about the ARAM. I meant that taking this decision put MLG and Riot in a bad spot so they must have been pretty sure about the other allegations since they have nothing to gain from the current situation. It's just the word "PR" and "management" that we hear every time a situation cames up that exhaust me. If MLG and Riot made a mistake, then just apology and everybody will move on. Or maybe someone in this thread will call MLG's sponsors to put them in a bad spot ? oO Mistakes are okay when you take responsability. The best part about this is that both teams, Riot and MLG all agree that disqualification is the appropriate response to what happened. Every press release has the same information and outcome. The only people crying foul are the people saying "I thought the games were fun and ARAM is totally ok" and "I don't care about PR, we are a community". You know who cares about PR? The teams, their managers, and their sponsors. PR is how they earn their living and get support from sponsors. If you don't want to be involved with that, then don't watch MLG matches or follow that scene.
People don't really likes team for their "PR" management skills but for the players. TSM is arguably one of the most loved NA scene team and it's not because of their highly professionnal behavior - remember the dihnasty splitting money ? In SC2, EG is one of the most professionnal team with the shittiest image - having money and buying players from other team doesn't do well for "PR".
We are not crying a foul by the way. The only thing I don't get is all the people calling curse and dignitas unprofessionnal for one failed attempt to make people enjoy a little a non conventionnal game. Punish them if you want it so bad, and then just let it go. But saying they are "unprofessionnal" and that "lol esport" cannot grow with such behavior is ridiculous.
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On August 29 2012 02:22 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 02:13 Plansix wrote:On August 28 2012 23:32 WhiteDog wrote:On August 28 2012 22:39 Dan HH wrote:On August 28 2012 21:55 WhiteDog wrote:On August 28 2012 21:16 Dan HH wrote:On August 28 2012 20:26 kidd wrote:
I don't mean to take sides, but honestly, it's just one aram game. The rest of the games were played seriously so it's not a fair or reasonable conclusion to assume they're splitting prize money from that. Also, anyone who watched the rest of the games would know they were playing seriously for the rest of the series. When it comes down to it, they already made a base amount of money at the least and $8000 after; taxes, team obligations, five way split, probably comes down to an insignificant amount of money. If saint chooses to, he can probably make more than that difference in a day of streaming which is just him streaming what he's already doing anyway.
The punishment is unfair especially when there is no solid proof other than assumptions and telephone. They played and earned 1st and 2nd place and there are no rules against playing a game less than seriously. Even if that was such a big issue, just void the result of that specific game, results are still the same. If you read the mlg rules, no rules were broken and the closest thing it came to was a technical foul which doesn't result in a DQ, even 3 technical fouls for league is only a one game penalty. Also, I feel no pity toward the rest of the teams who "played their hearts out". They simply need to get better to beat curse and dig. If you can't beat them, you can't dictate what they should and shouldn't do. This isn't some pussyfoot profession where mediocre is okay. You have to win to get what you want and what you feel you deserve.
In the end, professionalism is the only thing that was really an issue and it was only for that specific game and even though mlg and riot both have no grounds to punish on professionalism in this situation; curse has accepted the punishment and moved on. The teams/team owners should really be the only ones doing anything. If only dig did the same then everyone could move on. I suggest looking at it from the other perspective. This is a PR disaster for everyone involved, including MLG and Riot. You think they would have said anything if they weren't sure? They have absolutely nothing to gain from doing this, quite the contrary. Who fucking care about PR, we're a community, LOL is a great game I watch for the show and for the players I like, to root for the teams I follow. The day everything in lol will be controlled for "PR requirement" is the day LOL and the e-sport scene would have lost its soul. You see a PR disaster, I see dignitas and curse trying their best to give a good show to the audience, and that's good in my opinion - even if it is a failed attempt. Telling them "It was not a good idea, don't do it again" should be enough. Not sure why you quoted my post, I wasn't talking about the ARAM. I meant that taking this decision put MLG and Riot in a bad spot so they must have been pretty sure about the other allegations since they have nothing to gain from the current situation. It's just the word "PR" and "management" that we hear every time a situation cames up that exhaust me. If MLG and Riot made a mistake, then just apology and everybody will move on. Or maybe someone in this thread will call MLG's sponsors to put them in a bad spot ? oO Mistakes are okay when you take responsability. The best part about this is that both teams, Riot and MLG all agree that disqualification is the appropriate response to what happened. Every press release has the same information and outcome. The only people crying foul are the people saying "I thought the games were fun and ARAM is totally ok" and "I don't care about PR, we are a community". You know who cares about PR? The teams, their managers, and their sponsors. PR is how they earn their living and get support from sponsors. If you don't want to be involved with that, then don't watch MLG matches or follow that scene. People don't really likes team for their "PR" management skills but for the players. TSM is arguably one of the most loved NA scene team and it's not because of their highly professionnal behavior - remember the dihnasty splitting money ? In SC2, EG is one of the most professionnal team with the shittiest image - having money and buying players from other team doesn't do well for "PR". We are not crying a foul by the way. The only thing I don't get is all the people calling curse and dignitas unprofessionnal for one failed try to make people enjoy a little a non conventionnal game. Punish them if you want it so bad, and then just let it go. But saying they are "unprofessionnal" and that "lol esport" cannot grow with such behavior is ridiculous.
Any agreement between to competing teams prior to a match will always come under scrutiny. The integrity of a competition is very fragil and once lost, is almost impossible to regain. Agreeing to split prize money is a very bad idea, specificlly since it was done before the match took place. Agreeing to play a game in a specific fashion is also a bad idea, regardless of how hard they played. It calls into question the very nature of the event and why the players are even competing. This is a basic idea of competition, that the players will always try their hardest and the players who do best are rewarded. If you remove this, the entire idea of the competition begins to unravel.
This is why people are calling the teams unprofessional. At competition of this level, it is expected that they would know that prize splitting or agreeing to play in a specific fashion could damage the integrity of the entire event. If either of the teams had brought this idea to their managers, it would be been shot down without a second thought.
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On August 28 2012 21:07 nojitosunrise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 19:45 Goragoth wrote:On August 28 2012 18:45 overt wrote:On August 28 2012 18:41 BlueSpace wrote:
But lets just assume they didn't agree to pot splitting. What does that say about Dig/Curse... Well obviously 8000$ are not even worth fighting for to them anymore. Which is a little bit strange to me and right now there should be alarm bells whistling at Riot, because if 8000$ price differential is not enough to motivate teams to seriously compete, than that has serious implications for the development of the entire scene especially the smaller tournaments (and MLG is not even smale...).
I think that this event will be a bit of a wake up call to every tournament organizer and Riot with regards to how they conduct circuit points and tournaments in season 3. Even ignoring the ARAM in the finals I can't imagine tournaments like knowing that a team like CLG can just decide to skip the last two NA LANs because they aren't important or that TSM can choose to skip the last MLG because it isn't important. These top teams are the ones that bring in the most exposure and the most viewers. If you can't convince them to play all season long you're going to have issues. I think that maybe Riot should consider spreading out their massive prize pools throughout the year a bit better rather than having a singular $3 million dollar finals with the other LANs being essentially small time money by comparison. edit: Like, food for thought, if these weekly tournaments come true and they run on the same circuit point system what's to stop teams like TSM or CLG from decimating and consistently taking 1st/2nd every week for like six months in NA tournaments. Then turning around and deciding to move to EU or Korea for the remainder of the season and just not compete in NA events because their place at S3 regionals is already set in stone? Maybe it's about time for Riot to organize a real league similar to the ProLeague? I.e with (mandatory) scheduled matches for all the teams that give points and playoffs at the end of the season? The obvious problem is that you need a single organizer in this case unlike the very separate tournaments that make up the current circuit system. That's what Season 3 is going to be like
Haha just read up on Riots season 3 plans and it indeed looks like it will be just like that. I didn't know. Sounds like it is going to be absolutely awesome - I'm looking forwards to season 3 even more now.
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If you are looking forward to season 3, you either don't know all the details or you don't know the implications of said details.
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On August 29 2012 08:02 iGrok wrote:
If you are looking forward to season 3, you either don't know all the details or you don't know the implications of said details.
Just seems like it doesn't allow for newer people or teams to join, but might be me misreading something.
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Riot should go medieval, seed them next to each other and make them play a bo1 ARAM on proving grounds. 
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Vancouver14381 Posts
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On August 29 2012 08:02 iGrok wrote:
If you are looking forward to season 3, you either don't know all the details or you don't know the implications of said details.
Please explain. Why even post something so cryptic in the first place?
If indeed you are referring to the fact that teams are somewhat locked in place then I think that's a good thing. We need more stability in e-sports and having lower leagues/qualifiers and relegation matches is the way to go in the future. So what, in your mind, is wrong with season 3?
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Imagine if the basketball players agreed to make the first game of the NBA finals a dunk contest without the consent of the NBA. That's basically what went down here. Any other professional sport trying this would get a similar reaction from fans, players, organizers and the rest of the league. They were also handed, imo, an appropriate penalty. The precedent had to be set. Not saying I didn't enjoy it, just saying they shouldn't be doing stuff like that.
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On August 29 2012 13:20 Ghost-z wrote:
Imagine if the basketball players agreed to make the first game of the NBA finals a dunk contest without the consent of the NBA. That's basically what went down here. Any other professional sport trying this would get a similar reaction from fans, players, organizers and the rest of the league. They were also handed, imo, an appropriate penalty. The precedent had to be set. Not saying I didn't enjoy it, just saying they shouldn't be doing stuff like that.
I dunno. I think the fans would love to see a dunk contest in the finals of the NBA. Just like the fans for the most part enjoyed the ARAM lol.
Saying that the teams should be penalized and that it's unprofessional is fine. I agree. But I dunno why people keep insisting that the fans are disappointed. When most fans weren't disappointed by the ARAM.
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On August 29 2012 13:59 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 13:20 Ghost-z wrote:
Imagine if the basketball players agreed to make the first game of the NBA finals a dunk contest without the consent of the NBA. That's basically what went down here. Any other professional sport trying this would get a similar reaction from fans, players, organizers and the rest of the league. They were also handed, imo, an appropriate penalty. The precedent had to be set. Not saying I didn't enjoy it, just saying they shouldn't be doing stuff like that. I dunno. I think the fans would love to see a dunk contest in the finals of the NBA. Just like the fans for the most part enjoyed the ARAM lol. Saying that the teams should be penalized and that it's unprofessional is fine. I agree. But I dunno why people keep insisting that the fans are disappointed. When most fans weren't disappointed by the ARAM.
No. Just no.
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United States37500 Posts
At this point, I'm just looking forward to putting all this MLG drama behind us.
PAX Prime is in a few days, we'll have a MLG recap out for you guys tomorrow.
Go do something more productive, like talk about who you think is going to make it to S2 Finals.
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EPT
