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On August 28 2012 16:21 overt wrote:
I'm really starting to doubt the prize pool splitting allegations. That video interview was done just after the DQ it seems and according to MLG's original statement they admitted to prize pool splitting. But then moments later saintvicious was interviewed and denies the allegations of prize pool splitting?
Either Curse is some kind of special idiots or MLG just assumed that since they were playing ARAM they agreed to split the money. I mean, SirScoots just posted about how it's "obvious" that if you're playing ARAM you're agreeing to split the prize money.
With all the misinformation and hearsay going on with MLG/Riot's side I don't see any reason to believe MLG over Curse.
I'm really thinking MLG asked them "Are the rumors going around about the finals true?" and they said yes. MLG heard rumors of prize splitting and then assumed that they admitted to that, Curse assumed they were just talking about agreeing to ARAM, miscommunication due to poor elaboration on both sides happens, accusations thrown out etc.
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Who needs things like evidence and actual proof to back up such minor claims such as match fixing and prize splitting when you can just say things like it's "obvious" and "the entire venue knew" or my personal favorite "We have witnesses". I am hoping Odee can get to the bottom of this because quite frankly I don't really trust MLG or Riot unless they have some sort of smoking gun to prove that kind of stuff.
Curse and Dig played a single aram game, people hated and or loved it, MLG didn't. Both teams then DQ'd after the series had been completed and reasons for that range from agreeing to play an aram, to full on prize pool splitting and match fixing(the last one being the least credible of possibilities as anyone who's seen the entire series will tell you.
Nothings come to light yet except Odee saying he's going to get to the bottom of this and I while I may not like him I do trust his integrity and care he has for his team. So in short it's the waiting game if anything public at all will come out I do hope it does because it is a blotch on everyone, the teams the event and the game itself.
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On August 28 2012 15:17 j0ker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 14:07 achan1058 wrote:On August 28 2012 13:36 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
Cooperating to do anything is not outlawed. Cooperating in such a way that one or both parties are aware that the process may alter the results of the play in a pre-understood fashion is. Nothing stopping two cyclists, for example, agreeing to chug a beer before a race, or to ease into the start, because neither are aware of, and consequently cannot make use of, the potential effect this may have on the results. Collusion is dangerous because it quite frequently pre-affects results in such a way that the colluding parties can take advantage of the knowledge. This was triggered by playng ARAM though. They turned the entire game into a coin-flip. Let's look at a bit more extreme example. Suppose team A is stronger than team B significantly, that both playing in a straight forward manner will almost always results in team A winning. Now they play in this wacky manner in which team A only has 50% chance. In this case, the result is drastically altered. While it is not pre-determined who wins, team B ends up with a significantly higher chance because of it. ARAM isnt a coinflip at all, its just a more casual game mode that has a bit of luck involved in champ select.
And that does not hurt my argument at all. I would argue that ARAM should have been enough grounds for the DQ, just like if someone played a monobattle in SC2 in the finals. No idea why MLG needs to dodge around that issue.
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The thing that strikes me most is that Curse comes out and says they didnt do anything other then agree to ARAM the first game.
If this is a lie then a statement from Dignitas about the entire thing would likely expose this lie and cause serious PR dmg for Curse. So why would they lie about it. It just doesnt make sense to me so for now I believe them that there was no winner/prize fixing going on.
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While I don't mean to sound like an asshole, the people who keep asking for "proof"... I don't know what you expect will satisfy you. Do you think they signed a contract between one another about the possibility of prize splitting? Do you think they were recording it on their camera phones while they talked over lunch about it?
Note: I'm not saying they did, but I'm not sure what anybody expects as evidence other than people saying they overheard them talk about it or they were told it in/directly. Now, if MLG only heard about it through a he-said-she-said game of telephone, then it can be criticized.
Odds are, as I've said before, it could have been a misunderstanding and miss-communication as to what the teams agreed they had done wrong when MLG confronted them. That said, I've still no issue with the punishment even if it is only (despite stating it's not) about the ARAM.
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Considering how serious the other 4 games were and the lack of solid evidence provided by the MLG/Riot, I just can't believe in any of their statement and it feels likely they acted based on anger over anything else....
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At the end of the day Curse and Dig went into the tournament thinking it was a joke and they showed it with the ARAM game one. Any of those other teams fought to get to higher rankings, to me it's like a slap in the face to all the other competitors who had to tie break 3/4th place at MLG and 8th place for PAX.
It was really pointless to "test the boundries" of how far they could go so close to PAX. The consequences of their actions were clearly not well thought out. If they wanted to have fun they could've played or done any number of different things that didn't reveal anything for regionals.
Now all LoL tournaments for their official tournament games will have to add a ruling for ARAM, did we really need that? When tournaments have to add extra rules not because of unbalanced strategy or bugs(Allied Spider Mines), but instead for unprofessionalism, that's two steps backwards from what Riot/MLG/IPL/Dreamhack/Fans would've wanted going into their futures.
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On August 28 2012 17:01 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
While I don't mean to sound like an asshole, the people who keep asking for "proof"... I don't know what you expect will satisfy you. Do you think they signed a contract between one another about the possibility of prize splitting? Do you think they were recording it on their camera phones while they talked over lunch about it?
Y'know what would help to prove it? If the stories from MLG and Riot didn't conflict. If their statements and announcements about what happened weren't so vague. If just one single witness came forward on reddit or TL or the LoL official forums.
The only credible witness we even knew about was SirScoots and Slasher who ended up not even being witnesses and just assumed the players had agreed to split the prize money because they played an ARAM in game 1.
edit:
To clarify I'm perfectly fine with the DQ even if it was only because of the ARAM. While I think some people in the community got a bit too "outraged" by it I understand why MLG wouldn't want to let that go unpunished as it sort of belittles their organization. But if the allegations of prize splitting and match fixing aren't true (and odds are one or the other isn't true) I do think MLG and Riot owe the players an apology. Especially since at least Curse has already apologized to the community and to the organizers for the ARAM.
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On August 28 2012 16:06 Femari wrote:
Don't forget about how bad the Ashe play was. I don't think an arrow was hit at all.
In fact some of them hit. The "that ashe was throwing the game" thingy is a myth.
He was bad with her, but nearly each time an arrow connected, it was a kill.
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The rules are already in place and nobody that was directly involved has said, that playing an ARAM was ok. It was a troll move as Saint admitted and they have accepted the punishment. Also could people stop that notion of ARAM being somewhat accepted in the community as a serious game. I distinctly remember that a few players including Scarra pulled an ARAM in a high elo game and even that sparked a controversial discussion...
The players knew what they were doing and they have admitted to it being a) not serious, b) not really competitive and c) not appropriate for the setting they were in. What they are contesting is whether or not they agreed to split the pot. People arguing at this point about the ARAM are doing it purely for the sake of discussion (which is fine, but rather academic in a sense of whether or not ARAM games can be serious in general).
Regarding the pot splitting allegations, as Sir Scoots said, doing an ARAM indicates that you don't care about the outcome, which means they didn't care about the 8000$ price differential. For him this makes only sense if they agreed to somehow split the pot, which would be a much more serious offense than playing an ARAM.
But lets just assume they didn't agree to pot splitting. What does that say about Dig/Curse... Well obviously 8000$ are not even worth fighting for to them anymore. Which is a little bit strange to me and right now there should be alarm bells whistling at Riot, because if 8000$ price differential is not enough to motivate teams to seriously compete, than that has serious implications for the development of the entire scene especially the smaller tournaments (and MLG is not even smale...).
Oh and to all the people jumping in and generalizing from one bad incident onto the entire scene/game... YOU'RE SO CUTE! *cuddle* :D
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On August 28 2012 18:41 BlueSpace wrote:
But lets just assume they didn't agree to pot splitting. What does that say about Dig/Curse... Well obviously 8000$ are not even worth fighting for to them anymore. Which is a little bit strange to me and right now there should be alarm bells whistling at Riot, because if 8000$ price differential is not enough to motivate teams to seriously compete, than that has serious implications for the development of the entire scene especially the smaller tournaments (and MLG is not even smale...).
I think that this event will be a bit of a wake up call to every tournament organizer and Riot with regards to how they conduct circuit points and tournaments in season 3.
Even ignoring the ARAM in the finals I can't imagine tournaments like knowing that a team like CLG can just decide to skip the last two NA LANs because they aren't important or that TSM can choose to skip the last MLG because it isn't important. These top teams are the ones that bring in the most exposure and the most viewers. If you can't convince them to play all season long you're going to have issues. I think that maybe Riot should consider spreading out their massive prize pools throughout the year a bit better rather than having a singular $3 million dollar finals with the other LANs being essentially small time money by comparison.
edit:
Like, food for thought, if these weekly tournaments come true and they run on the same circuit point system what's to stop teams like TSM or CLG from decimating and consistently taking 1st/2nd every week for like six months in NA tournaments. Then turning around and deciding to move to EU or Korea for the remainder of the season and just not compete in NA events because their place at S3 regionals is already set in stone?
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Feel sorry for the other teams who tried their hardest, took the tournament seriously but didn't make it to the finals, they have to see these two teams taking the piss and joking around and shitting on the tournament, the competitiveness and the efforts they made.
Not really interested in the specific arguments of who said what and exactly what they decided to do or not, how many fans enjoyed it compared to how many didn't etc, it's just disappointing, not the biggest deal of course, it's just esports but a bit disappointing none the less.
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On August 28 2012 18:45 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 18:41 BlueSpace wrote:
But lets just assume they didn't agree to pot splitting. What does that say about Dig/Curse... Well obviously 8000$ are not even worth fighting for to them anymore. Which is a little bit strange to me and right now there should be alarm bells whistling at Riot, because if 8000$ price differential is not enough to motivate teams to seriously compete, than that has serious implications for the development of the entire scene especially the smaller tournaments (and MLG is not even smale...).
I think that this event will be a bit of a wake up call to every tournament organizer and Riot with regards to how they conduct circuit points and tournaments in season 3. Even ignoring the ARAM in the finals I can't imagine tournaments like knowing that a team like CLG can just decide to skip the last two NA LANs because they aren't important or that TSM can choose to skip the last MLG because it isn't important. These top teams are the ones that bring in the most exposure and the most viewers. If you can't convince them to play all season long you're going to have issues. I think that maybe Riot should consider spreading out their massive prize pools throughout the year a bit better rather than having a singular $3 million dollar finals with the other LANs being essentially small time money by comparison. edit: Like, food for thought, if these weekly tournaments come true and they run on the same circuit point system what's to stop teams like TSM or CLG from decimating and consistently taking 1st/2nd every week for like six months in NA tournaments. Then turning around and deciding to move to EU or Korea for the remainder of the season and just not compete in NA events because their place at S3 regionals is already set in stone?
Maybe it's about time for Riot to organize a real league similar to the ProLeague? I.e with (mandatory) scheduled matches for all the teams that give points and playoffs at the end of the season? The obvious problem is that you need a single organizer in this case unlike the very separate tournaments that make up the current circuit system.
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I don't mean to take sides, but honestly, it's just one aram game. The rest of the games were played seriously so it's not a fair or reasonable conclusion to assume they're splitting prize money from that. Also, anyone who watched the rest of the games would know they were playing seriously for the rest of the series. When it comes down to it, they already made a base amount of money at the least and $8000 after; taxes, team obligations, five way split, probably comes down to an insignificant amount of money. If saint chooses to, he can probably make more than that difference in a day of streaming which is just him streaming what he's already doing anyway.
The punishment is unfair especially when there is no solid proof other than assumptions and telephone. They played and earned 1st and 2nd place and there are no rules against playing a game less than seriously. Even if that was such a big issue, just void the result of that specific game, results are still the same. If you read the mlg rules, no rules were broken and the closest thing it came to was a technical foul which doesn't result in a DQ, even 3 technical fouls for league is only a one game penalty. Also, I feel no pity toward the rest of the teams who "played their hearts out". They simply need to get better to beat curse and dig. If you can't beat them, you can't dictate what they should and shouldn't do. This isn't some pussyfoot profession where mediocre is okay. You have to win to get what you want and what you feel you deserve.
In the end, professionalism is the only thing that was really an issue and it was only for that specific game and even though mlg and riot both have no grounds to punish on professionalism in this situation; curse has accepted the punishment and moved on. The teams/team owners should really be the only ones doing anything. If only dig did the same then everyone could move on.
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On August 28 2012 19:45 Goragoth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 18:45 overt wrote:On August 28 2012 18:41 BlueSpace wrote:
But lets just assume they didn't agree to pot splitting. What does that say about Dig/Curse... Well obviously 8000$ are not even worth fighting for to them anymore. Which is a little bit strange to me and right now there should be alarm bells whistling at Riot, because if 8000$ price differential is not enough to motivate teams to seriously compete, than that has serious implications for the development of the entire scene especially the smaller tournaments (and MLG is not even smale...).
I think that this event will be a bit of a wake up call to every tournament organizer and Riot with regards to how they conduct circuit points and tournaments in season 3. Even ignoring the ARAM in the finals I can't imagine tournaments like knowing that a team like CLG can just decide to skip the last two NA LANs because they aren't important or that TSM can choose to skip the last MLG because it isn't important. These top teams are the ones that bring in the most exposure and the most viewers. If you can't convince them to play all season long you're going to have issues. I think that maybe Riot should consider spreading out their massive prize pools throughout the year a bit better rather than having a singular $3 million dollar finals with the other LANs being essentially small time money by comparison. edit: Like, food for thought, if these weekly tournaments come true and they run on the same circuit point system what's to stop teams like TSM or CLG from decimating and consistently taking 1st/2nd every week for like six months in NA tournaments. Then turning around and deciding to move to EU or Korea for the remainder of the season and just not compete in NA events because their place at S3 regionals is already set in stone? Maybe it's about time for Riot to organize a real league similar to the ProLeague? I.e with (mandatory) scheduled matches for all the teams that give points and playoffs at the end of the season? The obvious problem is that you need a single organizer in this case unlike the very separate tournaments that make up the current circuit system.
That's what Season 3 is going to be like
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On August 28 2012 20:26 kidd wrote:
I don't mean to take sides, but honestly, it's just one aram game. The rest of the games were played seriously so it's not a fair or reasonable conclusion to assume they're splitting prize money from that. Also, anyone who watched the rest of the games would know they were playing seriously for the rest of the series. When it comes down to it, they already made a base amount of money at the least and $8000 after; taxes, team obligations, five way split, probably comes down to an insignificant amount of money. If saint chooses to, he can probably make more than that difference in a day of streaming which is just him streaming what he's already doing anyway.
The punishment is unfair especially when there is no solid proof other than assumptions and telephone. They played and earned 1st and 2nd place and there are no rules against playing a game less than seriously. Even if that was such a big issue, just void the result of that specific game, results are still the same. If you read the mlg rules, no rules were broken and the closest thing it came to was a technical foul which doesn't result in a DQ, even 3 technical fouls for league is only a one game penalty. Also, I feel no pity toward the rest of the teams who "played their hearts out". They simply need to get better to beat curse and dig. If you can't beat them, you can't dictate what they should and shouldn't do. This isn't some pussyfoot profession where mediocre is okay. You have to win to get what you want and what you feel you deserve.
In the end, professionalism is the only thing that was really an issue and it was only for that specific game and even though mlg and riot both have no grounds to punish on professionalism in this situation; curse has accepted the punishment and moved on. The teams/team owners should really be the only ones doing anything. If only dig did the same then everyone could move on.
I suggest looking at it from the other perspective. This is a PR disaster for everyone involved, including MLG and Riot. You think they would have said anything if they weren't sure? They have absolutely nothing to gain from doing this, quite the contrary.
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I don't know if it has been posted here, since many people doubt MLG and such, this is the statement from Team Dignitas:
It has come to our attention that during yesterday’s Major League Gaming Summer Championship League of Legends Event, our League of Legends team have engaged in misconduct. We have found at least some of the accusations to be valid. As a consequence, we have decided to investigate the situation fully to accertain all the facts. We will release a statement describing our responsive actions within two days.
Michael O’Dell, Managing Director of Team Dignitas, said: “Team Dignitas, our members and all of our partners have never, and will never, stand for conduct that disrespects our team values MERIT, PRESTIGE, WORTH, DIGNITY”.
We are committed to supporting the eSports community and once our investigation is complete we will respond accordingly.
http://www.team-dignitas.org/articles/news/League-of-Legends/2108/Official-statement-regarding-our-League-of-Legends-Division-/
There seem to be legitimate accusations. If everyone already knew this, please disregard this post.
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If MLG was so upset over the ARAM they could have stopped and regamed the first game. They wouldn't even have to cite some rules, just say "come on guys play for real" and I'm sure the teams would have obliged. The fact that they didn't, then go on to DQ both teams and steal their prize money is completely dubious. And this based on unsubstantiated rumours of "match fixing" which is a very serious accusation (i.e. libel) to accuse any professional gaming team of and better have more evidence than "somebody overheard" or "everyone knew".
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On August 28 2012 21:16 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 20:26 kidd wrote:
I don't mean to take sides, but honestly, it's just one aram game. The rest of the games were played seriously so it's not a fair or reasonable conclusion to assume they're splitting prize money from that. Also, anyone who watched the rest of the games would know they were playing seriously for the rest of the series. When it comes down to it, they already made a base amount of money at the least and $8000 after; taxes, team obligations, five way split, probably comes down to an insignificant amount of money. If saint chooses to, he can probably make more than that difference in a day of streaming which is just him streaming what he's already doing anyway.
The punishment is unfair especially when there is no solid proof other than assumptions and telephone. They played and earned 1st and 2nd place and there are no rules against playing a game less than seriously. Even if that was such a big issue, just void the result of that specific game, results are still the same. If you read the mlg rules, no rules were broken and the closest thing it came to was a technical foul which doesn't result in a DQ, even 3 technical fouls for league is only a one game penalty. Also, I feel no pity toward the rest of the teams who "played their hearts out". They simply need to get better to beat curse and dig. If you can't beat them, you can't dictate what they should and shouldn't do. This isn't some pussyfoot profession where mediocre is okay. You have to win to get what you want and what you feel you deserve.
In the end, professionalism is the only thing that was really an issue and it was only for that specific game and even though mlg and riot both have no grounds to punish on professionalism in this situation; curse has accepted the punishment and moved on. The teams/team owners should really be the only ones doing anything. If only dig did the same then everyone could move on. I suggest looking at it from the other perspective. This is a PR disaster for everyone involved, including MLG and Riot. You think they would have said anything if they weren't sure? They have absolutely nothing to gain from doing this, quite the contrary.
Who fucking care about PR, we're a community, LOL is a great game I watch for the show and for the players I like, to root for the teams I follow. The day everything in lol will be controlled for "PR requirement" is the day LOL and the e-sport scene would have lost its soul.
You see a PR disaster, I see dignitas and curse trying their best to give a good show to the audience, and that's good in my opinion - even if it is a failed attempt. Telling them "It was not a good idea, don't do it again" should be enough.
On August 28 2012 21:34 Desertfaux wrote:I don't know if it has been posted here, since many people doubt MLG and such, this is the statement from Team Dignitas: Show nested quote +It has come to our attention that during yesterday’s Major League Gaming Summer Championship League of Legends Event, our League of Legends team have engaged in misconduct. We have found at least some of the accusations to be valid. As a consequence, we have decided to investigate the situation fully to accertain all the facts. We will release a statement describing our responsive actions within two days.
Michael O’Dell, Managing Director of Team Dignitas, said: “Team Dignitas, our members and all of our partners have never, and will never, stand for conduct that disrespects our team values MERIT, PRESTIGE, WORTH, DIGNITY”.
We are committed to supporting the eSports community and once our investigation is complete we will respond accordingly. http://www.team-dignitas.org/articles/news/League-of-Legends/2108/Official-statement-regarding-our-League-of-Legends-Division-/There seem to be legitimate accusations. If everyone already knew this, please disregard this post.
This has already been adressed, the legitimate accusations can be over the ARAM and only the ARAM. Wait for the full statement (dignitas needs two days to understand the shit is going on, that's a tad too long but that's maturity in my opinion) and we will see clearly what's dignitas point of view in this.
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On August 28 2012 21:34 Desertfaux wrote:I don't know if it has been posted here, since many people doubt MLG and such, this is the statement from Team Dignitas: Show nested quote +It has come to our attention that during yesterday’s Major League Gaming Summer Championship League of Legends Event, our League of Legends team have engaged in misconduct. We have found at least some of the accusations to be valid. As a consequence, we have decided to investigate the situation fully to accertain all the facts. We will release a statement describing our responsive actions within two days.
Michael O’Dell, Managing Director of Team Dignitas, said: “Team Dignitas, our members and all of our partners have never, and will never, stand for conduct that disrespects our team values MERIT, PRESTIGE, WORTH, DIGNITY”.
We are committed to supporting the eSports community and once our investigation is complete we will respond accordingly. http://www.team-dignitas.org/articles/news/League-of-Legends/2108/Official-statement-regarding-our-League-of-Legends-Division-/There seem to be legitimate accusations. If everyone already knew this, please disregard this post.
No one is doubting the ARAM. its the price/winner fixing that people are calling out and Dig specificly states SOME accusations are correct.
As for taking 2 days. I assume that is because players are flying back to there houses after the event preventing Dig from questioning them right away.
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EPT
