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On August 28 2012 06:41 GeorgeForeman wrote:
I think its moronic that people in this thread and at MLG think that an ARAM is "okay" or only worth a technical, especially in the finals. It's both teams collectively shouting at the top of their lungs, "THIS TOURNAMENT FINALS IS IRRELEVANT TO US AND WE DON'T GIVE A SHIT IF WE WIN."
As fans, you should be outraged by the blatant disrespect this shows to you. As tournament runners, MLG should be horrified both that participants think of them with such disdain and that so many fans don't seem to mind.
Why would I be a fan of LoL? Yay LoL? Yay esports? Pfft.
I would rather be a fan of the teams than the game. I don't go to pro sports events to cheer on the sport itself.
In the big picture, it IS irrelevant.
S2 regionals, and S2 finals. There is more on the line. MLG is part of that, it's not bigger than that, and they should recognize that. Dig and Curse even said "We're only going to this event to pick up experience," Dig was more specific and said they needed LAN experience for Patoy.
Shouldn't the tournament organizers be insulted then, if their tournament is reduced to getting experience only?
I think collusion is an interesting topic, I'm not sure it goes against the competitive spirit with S2 in the big picture, but I'm also not sure it's 100% ethical either. Simberto brings up a good point.
I also don't know what all these SC2 fans are doing here, rabbling about professionalism when they don't even know anything about LoL.
I share Thereisnosaurus's viewpoint. Maybe I'm not as cynical and believing that in the end it's all about making that paper, but we gotta remember that in the end it's the fans paying for entertainment, and if the fans thought it was cool then I don't see why you gotta blow them off to live up to some faux "professional" standard when the only reason you need to be professional is to sell it to the fans in the first place.
I'm also fairly certain that these fans, if they saw ARAM in the S2 Finals, would be equally pissed off. That's why you can't look at the context of a single event and instead look at the big picture.
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On August 28 2012 04:01 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 03:24 kainzero wrote:
i don't see what the big deal is with anything at this tournament.
S2 regionals are next week.
both teams want to be super safe and not bust out any hidden strats.
ARAM eliminates one game where they don't have to play conventional.
competition-wise, the fans should know regionals are next week too. they know there's a trade-off between giving it your all now, or saving it.
this is similar to games at the end of a sports season where they put subs in when they have a guaranteed bye in the first round and they don't want to injure their starters for the playoffs. sure, they could win the conference title, but they would disappoint their fans if they lost their star quarterback to an injury in a "meaningless" game. The ARAM in itself isn't the problem. The problem is that they coordinated themselfes/collude (whatever you want to call it) with the enemy team and furthermore agreed to a set of unsanctioned rules. The correct analogy would be if both teams would have played sub-optimal strategies while still giving it their best. Also these subs actually get a chance to prove themselves as well as play in a real game which allows the coach to better evaluate those people. They are usually highly motivated. This is their chance outside of practice to prove/promote themselves. I've seen this analogy frequently in the SC2 forum part and it is extremely poor, but it just keeps on poping up.
Thank you! So many people seem to be totally missing this point. Nobody is saying that teams aren't allowed to play ARAM, they just can't agree to it beforehand. Teams are allowed to play any strategy they want (though playing sub-optimally would draw a lot of flak too) but discussing what you will do with the other team is a huge no no.
If both teams agreed to ban certain champions outside the game (say adding 2 additional bans per team), proceeded to play standard games, and were then found out by MLG I would expect the same action. Doesn't matter if they were trying hard in game, they set up additional rules outside those provided by the game and the tournament organizers and that's just something you don't do in a serious competition. Ever.
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On August 28 2012 09:22 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 06:41 GeorgeForeman wrote:
I think its moronic that people in this thread and at MLG think that an ARAM is "okay" or only worth a technical, especially in the finals. It's both teams collectively shouting at the top of their lungs, "THIS TOURNAMENT FINALS IS IRRELEVANT TO US AND WE DON'T GIVE A SHIT IF WE WIN."
As fans, you should be outraged by the blatant disrespect this shows to you. As tournament runners, MLG should be horrified both that participants think of them with such disdain and that so many fans don't seem to mind. -snip- I share Thereisnosaurus's viewpoint. Maybe I'm not as cynical and believing that in the end it's all about making that paper, but we gotta remember that in the end it's the fans paying for entertainment, and if the fans thought it was cool then I don't see why you gotta blow them off to live up to some faux "professional" standard when the only reason you need to be professional is to sell it to the fans in the first place. I'm also fairly certain that these fans, if they saw ARAM in the S2 Finals, would be equally pissed off. That's why you can't look at the context of a single event and instead look at the big picture.
The fans may pay for the entertainment but they in no way pay for the entire event. MLG depends on sponsors to be able to run their events. They keep a professional image because they are a business, if there is no professional image on a business sponsors will not come to them. They will not be interested in partnering with the league if the league's image is terrible.
It is about money in the end, because money is what allows the league to run. Fans are important, but for a business whose money mostly comes from sponsors the fans will have to take a backseat in this case.
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It seems Dignitas has released a statement about their investigation stating "It has come to our attention that during yesterday’s Major League Gaming Summer Championship League of Legends Event, our League of Legends team have engaged in misconduct. We have found at least some of the accusations to be valid."
While it's nothing definitive, it's a lot more than they've released in the past about things.
Source
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Doesn't matter if they were trying hard in game, they set up additional rules outside those provided by the game and the tournament organizers and that's just something you don't do in a serious competition. Ever.
I imagine that you feel strongly that this should be the case, however not all players are alike. In any game, the ultimate authority is a consensus of the players. no matter how much you try and formalise and codify and so on, it is at the heart of what a game is that if the players can do it, and agree to do it, it is now part of the game.
If the players disagree then the deviants may be called cheats or spoilsports, but it doesn't matter if every single person in the world who isn't playing the game says it shouldn't be like that, it is still entirely up to the players. For further research you may want to read Homo Ludens, or at least examine the concept of the magic circle in games theory.
So you can't say things like 'you just don't do that' as a bystander and expect it to have any effect, nor are you justified in scorn if your views are not considered. Providing circumstances in which the players are not inclined to make such variations is the only way.
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Umm...I was not a "witness" to this, I do not know where this rumor started from. I tweeted to Slasher asking him if he thought they were also spiltting the pot, once I saw all the tweets about them doing ARAM. I was then informed by MLG of all the details and the witnesses at lunch. When you decide to have a "fun" ARAM match, the natural conclusion is you have also decided to share the money as why would you risk the money on something so random. I then spoke to several MLG as well as Riot folks last night. It seems pretty clear that the players at first admitted and accepted the punishment and now in the light of day, with maybe their bosses yelling at them, they are doing some backtracking. Hope that clears up my non-involvement in this whole thing other than a few tweets.
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All the SC fans coming to shit on LoL. Go watch your 6 pool finals, coin toss PvP's, old 4 gates, proxy rax and all the other cheese i cant remember. Were those 1 games during a Final Series that much different from ARAM?
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On August 28 2012 10:36 SirScoots wrote:
Umm...I was not a "witness" to this, I do not know where this rumor started from. I tweeted to Slasher asking him if he thought they were also spiltting the pot, once I saw all the tweets about them doing ARAM. I was then informed by MLG of all the details and the witnesses at lunch. When you decide to have a "fun" ARAM match, the natural conclusion is you have also decided to share the money as why would you risk the money on something so random. I then spoke to several MLG as well as Riot folks last night. It seems pretty clear that the players at first admitted and accepted the punishment and now in the light of day, with maybe their bosses yelling at them, they are doing some backtracking. Hope that clears up my non-involvement in this whole thing other than a few tweets.
Is this in regards to the accusations of prize-sharing or did you hear anything about match-fixing as well? I find the match-fixing very hard to believe as Curse not only gains nothing from it, Dignitas is actually hurt by the outcome. Also I could see the progamers not knowing that prize-fixing may not be against the rules, but I'm sure they know that match-fixing is and they would not publicize it by talking about it in public and playing an ARAM. But it's still disturbing that both MLG and Riot employees have accused the teams of match-fixing. It's also hard to believe they would do this without definitive proof because slandering an organization's reputation like that is no joke.
Basically what ever the outcome, one side is gonna be majorly fucked depending on whether there was match-fixing or not.
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On August 28 2012 10:59 misirlou wrote:
All the SC fans coming to shit on LoL. Go watch your 6 pool finals, coin toss PvP's, old 4 gates, proxy rax and all the other cheese i cant remember. Were those 1 games during a Final Series that much different from ARAM?
They were different because they were trying to win...?
I mean yeah those are terrible match ups but it was quite obvious they weren't trying to win that ARAM.
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On August 28 2012 09:26 Goragoth wrote:
Thank you! So many people seem to be totally missing this point. Nobody is saying that teams aren't allowed to play ARAM, they just can't agree to it beforehand. Teams are allowed to play any strategy they want (though playing sub-optimally would draw a lot of flak too) but discussing what you will do with the other team is a huge no no.
If both teams agreed to ban certain champions outside the game (say adding 2 additional bans per team), proceeded to play standard games, and were then found out by MLG I would expect the same action. Doesn't matter if they were trying hard in game, they set up additional rules outside those provided by the game and the tournament organizers and that's just something you don't do in a serious competition. Ever.
Wait, how are they supposed to play ARAM if they dont agree to it beforehand? One team just starts picking random, expect to get a really shity champ, so other team notices its a random, maybe think its a mistake and pick 2 normal champs and only realize after that the other team did 2 more random picks? and then they go to lanes while one team is 5 mid?
They get DQed off twitter rumours, and what started as "i heard them joking to ARAM" went to "they agreed to share the prize" and finally "they match fixed".
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When you decide to have a "fun" ARAM match, the natural conclusion is you have also decided to share the money as why would you risk the money on something so random.
Thaaaat's a pretty long bow to draw Scoots. Especially when we're talking allegations of match fixing. I would have thought you of all people would be beyond making judgements based on 'the natural conclusion' over hard, clear evidence.
It seems pretty clear that the players at first admitted and accepted the punishment and now in the light of day, with maybe their bosses yelling at them, they are doing some backtracking.
That's... really interesting. Could you perhaps elaborate a bit? do you mean that you think the players were under pressure to fess up and did it more or less to get MLG off their backs? or that they admitted it freely, and now their sponsors/bosses are trying to get them to take back/ damagecontrol a genuine admission. Either of those scenarios strikes me as a little muddy, but you may mean something else, don't want to put words in your mouth.
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On August 28 2012 11:03 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 10:59 misirlou wrote:
All the SC fans coming to shit on LoL. Go watch your 6 pool finals, coin toss PvP's, old 4 gates, proxy rax and all the other cheese i cant remember. Were those 1 games during a Final Series that much different from ARAM? They were different because they were trying to win...? I mean yeah those are terrible match ups but it was quite obvious they weren't trying to win that ARAM.
Trying to win, but it's still not interesting, doesn't show any skill, and it's a waste of time for a viewer. I'd rather watch a good best of 5 with one fun ARAM game (the final was, according to everyone, really good) than a random match of sc2.
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On August 28 2012 10:22 Thereisnosaurus wrote:Show nested quote +Doesn't matter if they were trying hard in game, they set up additional rules outside those provided by the game and the tournament organizers and that's just something you don't do in a serious competition. Ever. I imagine that you feel strongly that this should be the case, however not all players are alike. In any game, the ultimate authority is a consensus of the players. no matter how much you try and formalise and codify and so on, it is at the heart of what a game is that if the players can do it, and agree to do it, it is now part of the game. If the players disagree then the deviants may be called cheats or spoilsports, but it doesn't matter if every single person in the world who isn't playing the game says it shouldn't be like that, it is still entirely up to the players. For further research you may want to read Homo Ludens, or at least examine the concept of the magic circle in games theory. So you can't say things like 'you just don't do that' as a bystander and expect it to have any effect, nor are you justified in scorn if your views are not considered. Providing circumstances in which the players are not inclined to make such variations is the only way.
Except it isn't up to the players at all. It is up to those putting up the money for the competition, i.e. the tournament organizers, in this case MLG. Sure, they could allow this sort of thing, but I don't know why they ever would. I also wonder if you look at tournament LoL as just another game (played for fun) or a serious sport (played for competition). I tend to view it as the latter and I'm one of those people who hopes for e-sports to become a serious mainstream phenomenon, and not just some teenagers playing computer games for fun in front of an audience.
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On August 28 2012 11:18 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 11:03 Femari wrote:On August 28 2012 10:59 misirlou wrote:
All the SC fans coming to shit on LoL. Go watch your 6 pool finals, coin toss PvP's, old 4 gates, proxy rax and all the other cheese i cant remember. Were those 1 games during a Final Series that much different from ARAM? They were different because they were trying to win...? I mean yeah those are terrible match ups but it was quite obvious they weren't trying to win that ARAM. Trying to win, but it's still not interesting, doesn't show any skill, and it's a waste of time for a viewer. I'd rather watch a good best of 5 with one fun ARAM game (the final was, according to everyone, really good) than a random match of sc2.
Okay but that doesn't make it right...? And not wanting to watch SC2 is completely irrelevant. SC2 doesn't even matter in this situation, the only reason it's being discussed is you brought up people trying to win their games and saying because it isn't entertaining that it's worse than teams not even trying to win a game.
There is a time for fun, it isn't in the finals of a serious competition. It's for showmatches.
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Except it isn't up to the players at all. It is up to those putting up the money for the competition, i.e. the tournament organizers, in this case MLG.
you misunderstand. Tournament organisers and all are free to ban things and make rules and so on, but they can't stop players making up NEW rules and following those, other than amending their ruleset to ban each new rule/restriction as it comes up.
In this circumstance they can, of course, do whatever the fuck they so choose because Esports players have as mentioned no rights, no appeal potential and very little experience in applying leverage to the companies they work for. Like I said, all it would take would be for the top 10 teams in the world to boycott the next couple of circuit tournaments requesting (among other things) a clear and standardised ruleset, non exploitative contracts (IE one that doesn't say 'we can do whatever we want to you if you participate, and you have absolutely no say, sorry') and a right of appeal and you would be laughing at just how many crows would be eaten. Like seriously. Fiddlesticks ult doesn't even come close.
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On August 28 2012 11:28 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 11:18 WhiteDog wrote:On August 28 2012 11:03 Femari wrote:On August 28 2012 10:59 misirlou wrote:
All the SC fans coming to shit on LoL. Go watch your 6 pool finals, coin toss PvP's, old 4 gates, proxy rax and all the other cheese i cant remember. Were those 1 games during a Final Series that much different from ARAM? They were different because they were trying to win...? I mean yeah those are terrible match ups but it was quite obvious they weren't trying to win that ARAM. Trying to win, but it's still not interesting, doesn't show any skill, and it's a waste of time for a viewer. I'd rather watch a good best of 5 with one fun ARAM game (the final was, according to everyone, really good) than a random match of sc2. Okay but that doesn't make it right...? And not wanting to watch SC2 is completely irrelevant. SC2 doesn't even matter in this situation, the only reason it's being discussed is you brought up people trying to win their games and saying because it isn't entertaining that it's worse than teams not even trying to win a game. There is a time for fun, it isn't in the finals of a serious competition. It's for showmatches.
can u please go back to ur sc2 section?
o look LoL drama, better kick them while theyre down!
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On August 28 2012 11:36 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 11:28 Femari wrote:On August 28 2012 11:18 WhiteDog wrote:On August 28 2012 11:03 Femari wrote:On August 28 2012 10:59 misirlou wrote:
All the SC fans coming to shit on LoL. Go watch your 6 pool finals, coin toss PvP's, old 4 gates, proxy rax and all the other cheese i cant remember. Were those 1 games during a Final Series that much different from ARAM? They were different because they were trying to win...? I mean yeah those are terrible match ups but it was quite obvious they weren't trying to win that ARAM. Trying to win, but it's still not interesting, doesn't show any skill, and it's a waste of time for a viewer. I'd rather watch a good best of 5 with one fun ARAM game (the final was, according to everyone, really good) than a random match of sc2. Okay but that doesn't make it right...? And not wanting to watch SC2 is completely irrelevant. SC2 doesn't even matter in this situation, the only reason it's being discussed is you brought up people trying to win their games and saying because it isn't entertaining that it's worse than teams not even trying to win a game. There is a time for fun, it isn't in the finals of a serious competition. It's for showmatches. can u please go back to ur sc2 section? o look LoL drama, better kick them while theyre down!
Oh yes let a LoL fan kick down LoL fans, are you listening to yourself? I play LoL, granted I'm new to it but don't shun me just cause I also watch SC2 and BW and all these other games.
It's clear dignitas and Curse were in the wrong, they even agree with me that it was wrong. What does that say? What does it say when Elementz is coming out saying he feels horrible and felt horrible while playing the ARAM in the finals? It says it was wrong. They made a mistake, they got punished for it, and they get to play next week. I fail to see anything wrong with this at all.
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On August 28 2012 10:36 SirScoots wrote:
Umm...I was not a "witness" to this, I do not know where this rumor started from. I tweeted to Slasher asking him if he thought they were also spiltting the pot, once I saw all the tweets about them doing ARAM. I was then informed by MLG of all the details and the witnesses at lunch. When you decide to have a "fun" ARAM match, the natural conclusion is you have also decided to share the money as why would you risk the money on something so random. I then spoke to several MLG as well as Riot folks last night. It seems pretty clear that the players at first admitted and accepted the punishment and now in the light of day, with maybe their bosses yelling at them, they are doing some backtracking. Hope that clears up my non-involvement in this whole thing other than a few tweets.
Wait. All of this started because people assumed that because they played ARAM that means they had to be splitting the prize?
Also you don't get to go to MLG about it and then talk to people at MLG and Riot about it and then claim you weren't involved. But thank you for clearing up that you weren't a witness and that this all started based off an assumption.
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On August 28 2012 11:32 Thereisnosaurus wrote:Show nested quote +Except it isn't up to the players at all. It is up to those putting up the money for the competition, i.e. the tournament organizers, in this case MLG. you misunderstand. Tournament organisers and all are free to ban things and make rules and so on, but they can't stop players making up NEW rules and following those, other than amending their ruleset to ban each new rule/restriction as it comes up.
Are you joking? What do you think would happen if two football (soccer) teams decided to play without goalies in a tournament match because they thought it would be funny? The rules technically don't state that the goalies have to be in the goal, they could just stand to the side or run onto the main pitch and play with the outfield players. I can tell you now that there would be hell to pay if they tried something like that, they'd be kicked out of the tournament in a heartbeat and whoever organized the whole thing would probably barred for life from the sport.
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On August 28 2012 09:22 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2012 06:41 GeorgeForeman wrote:
I think its moronic that people in this thread and at MLG think that an ARAM is "okay" or only worth a technical, especially in the finals. It's both teams collectively shouting at the top of their lungs, "THIS TOURNAMENT FINALS IS IRRELEVANT TO US AND WE DON'T GIVE A SHIT IF WE WIN."
As fans, you should be outraged by the blatant disrespect this shows to you. As tournament runners, MLG should be horrified both that participants think of them with such disdain and that so many fans don't seem to mind. Why would I be a fan of LoL? Yay LoL? Yay esports? Pfft. I would rather be a fan of the teams than the game. I don't go to pro sports events to cheer on the sport itself. In the big picture, it IS irrelevant. S2 regionals, and S2 finals. There is more on the line. MLG is part of that, it's not bigger than that, and they should recognize that. Dig and Curse even said "We're only going to this event to pick up experience," Dig was more specific and said they needed LAN experience for Patoy. Shouldn't the tournament organizers be insulted then, if their tournament is reduced to getting experience only? I think collusion is an interesting topic, I'm not sure it goes against the competitive spirit with S2 in the big picture, but I'm also not sure it's 100% ethical either. Simberto brings up a good point. I also don't know what all these SC2 fans are doing here, rabbling about professionalism when they don't even know anything about LoL. I share Thereisnosaurus's viewpoint. Maybe I'm not as cynical and believing that in the end it's all about making that paper, but we gotta remember that in the end it's the fans paying for entertainment, and if the fans thought it was cool then I don't see why you gotta blow them off to live up to some faux "professional" standard when the only reason you need to be professional is to sell it to the fans in the first place. I'm also fairly certain that these fans, if they saw ARAM in the S2 Finals, would be equally pissed off. That's why you can't look at the context of a single event and instead look at the big picture.
This is absurd. I don't even know how to respond. Your opinion is that MLG should be okay with players in one of its premier events fucking around in the finals of a tournament where $40,000 is on the line? You don't think ARAMs degrade the integrity of the tournament? You think the long-term success of LoL and MLG lies in giving people ARAMs to watch instead of real LoL matches?
"Professional" is not a false standard. It's one that is necessary for this whole venture to work. Most LoL fans at the moment are casuals. If Riot wants people to care about this game 5 years from now (and give how much money they're throwing at the eSports side of it, I definitely think they do) and if MLG wants people to take their competitions seriously to the point where it's on ESPN or whatever (and Sundance has said as much in recent interviews), its imperative that people take the tournaments seriously. Both the players and the fans. If you don't give a shit, that's fine. You're not the fan MLG is trying to attract. When the next shiny game comes out, you'll probably play/watch that. But what happened on Sunday is a huge embarassment for MLG. I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped LoL from the circuit at some point, which is a shame, 'cause I love watching LoL, and MLG does some of the best events around.
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EPT
