On August 27 2012 15:12 zeru wrote: How can people say life time ban is extreme, do you not remember the brood war match fixing, yeah it was larger scale, but come on, its match fixing.
I think people forget that this situation involved a lot of betting money, with confirmed match fixing. This does not compare to today's events at all.
On August 27 2012 15:13 Parnage wrote: This is just insane, I want -hard- evidence. I don't want some joke tweets I want someone with a audio or video recording saying "Here it is the smoking gun". I am sorry but I don't see Dignitas trying to matchfix and throw games. Dignitas has always been a fairly serious team, lead by a pretty serious CEO who will strait up bring the hammer of Thor down on anyone who messes with the image of Team Dignitas has he not? So why would they risk that kind of hammerfall?
At least Curse you can kind of make a case that they might do something but it's shaky ground at best.
As far as I am concerned the ARAM game was funny, it was entertaining and everyone seemed to enjoy it because the game didn't matter. The game didn't matter. It was a throw away game and both teams agreed on doing it. MLG isn't that blind so I am pretty sure someone on that end knew it as well.
Until I see some hard proof someone needs to buy Curse a trophy because they earned it.
How did the game not matter? It was part of the grand final of a big LAN event, with a big prize-pool at stake. Hundreds of people bought tickets to watch it live, and probably thousands paid to watch it online.
If they had agreed to have a show match ARAM before the final series, that seems perfectly fine. But playing it as part of the series makes a mockery of the tournament and is essentially taunting the crowd.
Next week is a qualifier for a tournament with a $3 million prize pool. This tournament was like $2,000 dollars for first? And there was zero chance either team would not make it to regional qualifiers regardless of the outcome.
The money they made at MLG likely could've been made as a team by streaming Friday-Sunday in their homes. Especially after you consider the cost of travel and expenses while there.
Then don't go. Nobody is forcing the teams to go to the tournament. If they don't want to, they don't have to. If their team says they have to, they can quit the team. Otherwise, you go and try to win. It's disrespectful to the tournament, your team, your sponsors, and the fans to give it anything other than your best.
The two best NA teams didn't go. Just shows how unimportant this tournament was. I'm sure MLG would love it if the top four NA teams just stopped going to their tournaments lol.
You're only proving my point. TSM and CLG made the decision not to go. These teams made the decision to go and then disrespected the tournament and its viewers while there. It's a huge difference.
If you want to argue that they didn't collude to throw the games or they didn't agree to split the pot... whatever. Hopefuly evidence will come to light and this will get sorted out one way or the other. But to defend them for fucking around is just silly.
On August 27 2012 15:39 achan1058 wrote: I just came from the SC2 forums, so I don't know about the game. Still, if they want to save their best strats, can't they do something that's standard, or at least not particularly ground breaking? Like an equivalent of a 4 gate in SC2, instead of a probe rush or a monobattle?
That's what the games other than the ARAM were. Nobody did anything new or ground breaking, just very standard stuff, which is what they should have done in the first game too.
Don't go was hardly a valid option(for Curse). Curse had to go to secure their 4th seed and their possible matchup against Evo. Dynamic wins(or gets second) while Curse is sitting on their asses at home and Curse is now playing them first round.
On August 27 2012 15:13 Parnage wrote: This is just insane, I want -hard- evidence. I don't want some joke tweets I want someone with a audio or video recording saying "Here it is the smoking gun". I am sorry but I don't see Dignitas trying to matchfix and throw games. Dignitas has always been a fairly serious team, lead by a pretty serious CEO who will strait up bring the hammer of Thor down on anyone who messes with the image of Team Dignitas has he not? So why would they risk that kind of hammerfall?
At least Curse you can kind of make a case that they might do something but it's shaky ground at best.
As far as I am concerned the ARAM game was funny, it was entertaining and everyone seemed to enjoy it because the game didn't matter. The game didn't matter. It was a throw away game and both teams agreed on doing it. MLG isn't that blind so I am pretty sure someone on that end knew it as well.
Until I see some hard proof someone needs to buy Curse a trophy because they earned it.
How did the game not matter? It was part of the grand final of a big LAN event, with a big prize-pool at stake. Hundreds of people bought tickets to watch it live, and probably thousands paid to watch it online.
If they had agreed to have a show match ARAM before the final series, that seems perfectly fine. But playing it as part of the series makes a mockery of the tournament and is essentially taunting the crowd.
Next week is a qualifier for a tournament with a $3 million prize pool. This tournament was like $2,000 dollars for first? And there was zero chance either team would not make it to regional qualifiers regardless of the outcome.
The money they made at MLG likely could've been made as a team by streaming Friday-Sunday in their homes. Especially after you consider the cost of travel and expenses while there.
Then don't go. Nobody is forcing the teams to go to the tournament. If they don't want to, they don't have to. If their team says they have to, they can quit the team. Otherwise, you go and try to win. It's disrespectful to the tournament, your team, your sponsors, and the fans to give it anything other than your best.
The two best NA teams didn't go. Just shows how unimportant this tournament was. I'm sure MLG would love it if the top four NA teams just stopped going to their tournaments lol.
I would agree that the prize pool doesn't dictate necessarily how important the tournament is. But if Dig or Curse qualify at regionals they get a salary from Riot. They were already qualified to go to regionals. Really difficult to argue that this tournament was that important when even scarra has commented on how unimportant this tournament is in the past week or so.
Then don't go. Its not up to MLG if Dig or Curse go. Its up to themselves. And when you go to a tournament you are expected to compete. So if you don't plan on doing that, don't even show up. If they really thought none of it mattered, why even show up?
They did compete, they just played a non standard 1st game with a possible accusation of agreeing to share the prize pool.
On August 27 2012 15:13 Parnage wrote: This is just insane, I want -hard- evidence. I don't want some joke tweets I want someone with a audio or video recording saying "Here it is the smoking gun". I am sorry but I don't see Dignitas trying to matchfix and throw games. Dignitas has always been a fairly serious team, lead by a pretty serious CEO who will strait up bring the hammer of Thor down on anyone who messes with the image of Team Dignitas has he not? So why would they risk that kind of hammerfall?
At least Curse you can kind of make a case that they might do something but it's shaky ground at best.
As far as I am concerned the ARAM game was funny, it was entertaining and everyone seemed to enjoy it because the game didn't matter. The game didn't matter. It was a throw away game and both teams agreed on doing it. MLG isn't that blind so I am pretty sure someone on that end knew it as well.
Until I see some hard proof someone needs to buy Curse a trophy because they earned it.
How did the game not matter? It was part of the grand final of a big LAN event, with a big prize-pool at stake. Hundreds of people bought tickets to watch it live, and probably thousands paid to watch it online.
If they had agreed to have a show match ARAM before the final series, that seems perfectly fine. But playing it as part of the series makes a mockery of the tournament and is essentially taunting the crowd.
Next week is a qualifier for a tournament with a $3 million prize pool. This tournament was like $2,000 dollars for first? And there was zero chance either team would not make it to regional qualifiers regardless of the outcome.
The money they made at MLG likely could've been made as a team by streaming Friday-Sunday in their homes. Especially after you consider the cost of travel and expenses while there.
Then don't go. Nobody is forcing the teams to go to the tournament. If they don't want to, they don't have to. If their team says they have to, they can quit the team. Otherwise, you go and try to win. It's disrespectful to the tournament, your team, your sponsors, and the fans to give it anything other than your best.
The two best NA teams didn't go. Just shows how unimportant this tournament was. I'm sure MLG would love it if the top four NA teams just stopped going to their tournaments lol.
I would agree that the prize pool doesn't dictate necessarily how important the tournament is. But if Dig or Curse qualify at regionals they get a salary from Riot. They were already qualified to go to regionals. Really difficult to argue that this tournament was that important when even scarra has commented on how unimportant this tournament is in the past week or so.
Then don't go. Its not up to MLG if Dig or Curse go. Its up to themselves. And when you go to a tournament you are expected to compete. So if you don't plan on doing that, don't even show up. If they really thought none of it mattered, why even show up?
They did compete, they just played a non standard 1st game with a possible accusation of agreeing to share the prize pool.
I think its quite more than possible. Why would MLG say they did this? They gain nothing from doing so. Even Scoots and Slasher were talking about it before the finals. And thats the problem.
On August 27 2012 15:13 Parnage wrote: This is just insane, I want -hard- evidence. I don't want some joke tweets I want someone with a audio or video recording saying "Here it is the smoking gun". I am sorry but I don't see Dignitas trying to matchfix and throw games. Dignitas has always been a fairly serious team, lead by a pretty serious CEO who will strait up bring the hammer of Thor down on anyone who messes with the image of Team Dignitas has he not? So why would they risk that kind of hammerfall?
At least Curse you can kind of make a case that they might do something but it's shaky ground at best.
As far as I am concerned the ARAM game was funny, it was entertaining and everyone seemed to enjoy it because the game didn't matter. The game didn't matter. It was a throw away game and both teams agreed on doing it. MLG isn't that blind so I am pretty sure someone on that end knew it as well.
Until I see some hard proof someone needs to buy Curse a trophy because they earned it.
I don't quite understand how:
(1) Tweets from MLG officials outlining the situation --- in particular confronting the teams and their admission of guilt. (2) Official statement from MLG describing the situation and the outcome. (3) Posts on the LoL board by Redbeard explaining the situation on the Riot end. (4) Public video apology by Curse.
Is not enough evidence to convince you (or others that seem to be unconvinced).
What? In the video apaology Curse explicitely said that ALL allegations other than playing an ARAM (read: the match fixing, prize splitting) are false.
Sorry, I don't see that in the video. Is that in the comments somewhere? Closest I heard was this:
"...For what happened today with the ARAM and the allegations of collusion..."
But I didn't hear any explicitly distinction from the ARAM and the collusion allegations, i.e., "sorry for the ARAM; we did not collude".
This is going to be a gigantic clusterfuck of he-said-she-said at this point and it's unlikely any rulings will be reversed. It'd be shocked if they could piece back together everything that happened in order to actually determined what was actually said/done by everybody... but I wont hold my breath.
On August 27 2012 15:13 Parnage wrote: This is just insane, I want -hard- evidence. I don't want some joke tweets I want someone with a audio or video recording saying "Here it is the smoking gun". I am sorry but I don't see Dignitas trying to matchfix and throw games. Dignitas has always been a fairly serious team, lead by a pretty serious CEO who will strait up bring the hammer of Thor down on anyone who messes with the image of Team Dignitas has he not? So why would they risk that kind of hammerfall?
At least Curse you can kind of make a case that they might do something but it's shaky ground at best.
As far as I am concerned the ARAM game was funny, it was entertaining and everyone seemed to enjoy it because the game didn't matter. The game didn't matter. It was a throw away game and both teams agreed on doing it. MLG isn't that blind so I am pretty sure someone on that end knew it as well.
Until I see some hard proof someone needs to buy Curse a trophy because they earned it.
I don't quite understand how:
(1) Tweets from MLG officials outlining the situation --- in particular confronting the teams and their admission of guilt. (2) Official statement from MLG describing the situation and the outcome. (3) Posts on the LoL board by Redbeard explaining the situation on the Riot end. (4) Public video apology by Curse.
Is not enough evidence to convince you (or others that seem to be unconvinced).
What? In the video apaology Curse explicitely said that ALL allegations other than playing an ARAM (read: the match fixing, prize splitting) are false.
Sorry, I don't see that in the video. Is that in the comments somewhere? Closest I heard was this:
"...For what happened today with the ARAM and the allegations of collusion..."
But I didn't hear any explicitly distinction from the ARAM and the collusion allegations, i.e., "sorry for the ARAM; we did not collude".
video description: Team Curse explains what happened at MLG Raleigh
"Both teams have agreed that the disqualification was warranted. There's some contention over the exact nature of the actions taken by Curse NA and Dignitas which led to the disqualification -- but regardless, both teams, as well as MLG and Riot agree that any collusion, or not playing a tournament match to win, warrants disqualification.
None of the parties involved today -- especially the teams -- are happy about this conduct because they are all serious about League of Legends eSports."
On August 27 2012 15:13 Parnage wrote: This is just insane, I want -hard- evidence. I don't want some joke tweets I want someone with a audio or video recording saying "Here it is the smoking gun". I am sorry but I don't see Dignitas trying to matchfix and throw games. Dignitas has always been a fairly serious team, lead by a pretty serious CEO who will strait up bring the hammer of Thor down on anyone who messes with the image of Team Dignitas has he not? So why would they risk that kind of hammerfall?
At least Curse you can kind of make a case that they might do something but it's shaky ground at best.
As far as I am concerned the ARAM game was funny, it was entertaining and everyone seemed to enjoy it because the game didn't matter. The game didn't matter. It was a throw away game and both teams agreed on doing it. MLG isn't that blind so I am pretty sure someone on that end knew it as well.
Until I see some hard proof someone needs to buy Curse a trophy because they earned it.
How did the game not matter? It was part of the grand final of a big LAN event, with a big prize-pool at stake. Hundreds of people bought tickets to watch it live, and probably thousands paid to watch it online.
If they had agreed to have a show match ARAM before the final series, that seems perfectly fine. But playing it as part of the series makes a mockery of the tournament and is essentially taunting the crowd.
Next week is a qualifier for a tournament with a $3 million prize pool. This tournament was like $2,000 dollars for first? And there was zero chance either team would not make it to regional qualifiers regardless of the outcome.
The money they made at MLG likely could've been made as a team by streaming Friday-Sunday in their homes. Especially after you consider the cost of travel and expenses while there.
Then don't go. Nobody is forcing the teams to go to the tournament. If they don't want to, they don't have to. If their team says they have to, they can quit the team. Otherwise, you go and try to win. It's disrespectful to the tournament, your team, your sponsors, and the fans to give it anything other than your best.
The two best NA teams didn't go. Just shows how unimportant this tournament was. I'm sure MLG would love it if the top four NA teams just stopped going to their tournaments lol.
I would agree that the prize pool doesn't dictate necessarily how important the tournament is. But if Dig or Curse qualify at regionals they get a salary from Riot. They were already qualified to go to regionals. Really difficult to argue that this tournament was that important when even scarra has commented on how unimportant this tournament is in the past week or so.
Then don't go. Its not up to MLG if Dig or Curse go. Its up to themselves. And when you go to a tournament you are expected to compete. So if you don't plan on doing that, don't even show up. If they really thought none of it mattered, why even show up?
They did compete, they just played a non standard 1st game with a possible accusation of agreeing to share the prize pool.
I think its quite more than possible. Why would MLG say they did this? They gain nothing from doing so. Even Scoots and Slasher were talking about it before the finals. And thats the problem.
This is where it gets mucked up.
MLG is against this and its against their rules so if they did then its fine they punished them. However, A lot of people think that no one should care what they do with prize money as long as they honestly compete, which I think most people think they did do.
You guys realize Dignitas and Curse tryharded in every single one of their games except for the ARAM. They played some really sick close games after that ARAM, too. Don't act like they went to MLG and were there just to waste time and fuck around.
On August 27 2012 15:13 Parnage wrote: This is just insane, I want -hard- evidence. I don't want some joke tweets I want someone with a audio or video recording saying "Here it is the smoking gun". I am sorry but I don't see Dignitas trying to matchfix and throw games. Dignitas has always been a fairly serious team, lead by a pretty serious CEO who will strait up bring the hammer of Thor down on anyone who messes with the image of Team Dignitas has he not? So why would they risk that kind of hammerfall?
At least Curse you can kind of make a case that they might do something but it's shaky ground at best.
As far as I am concerned the ARAM game was funny, it was entertaining and everyone seemed to enjoy it because the game didn't matter. The game didn't matter. It was a throw away game and both teams agreed on doing it. MLG isn't that blind so I am pretty sure someone on that end knew it as well.
Until I see some hard proof someone needs to buy Curse a trophy because they earned it.
I don't quite understand how:
(1) Tweets from MLG officials outlining the situation --- in particular confronting the teams and their admission of guilt. (2) Official statement from MLG describing the situation and the outcome. (3) Posts on the LoL board by Redbeard explaining the situation on the Riot end. (4) Public video apology by Curse.
Is not enough evidence to convince you (or others that seem to be unconvinced).
1. MLG officials saying someone did something is no more proof of something then me or you saying they did something. 2. Without any evidence except to say we have some witnesses and "everyone" at the venue knew. 3. Without any evidence just like MLG. 4. Curse said sorry for preforming an ARAM nothing about sharing the prize pool, match fixing or some such nonsense.
I am sorry, are you saying I should believe Scoots and Slasher because they said something on twitter? Because they are not who I'd want to call as credible evidence of a charge of fixing the game and such.
Those two teams played worked hard as hell to not only show up(more then could be said of several other teams who just didn't want to go because it wasn't worth it) and then both teams played grueling 8-9 matches before the finals and then played those finals. Please don't mouth off and say they where just fucking around and you are insulted by it. They put on a damn fine show and at the very least a memorable finals.
On August 27 2012 15:13 Parnage wrote: This is just insane, I want -hard- evidence. I don't want some joke tweets I want someone with a audio or video recording saying "Here it is the smoking gun". I am sorry but I don't see Dignitas trying to matchfix and throw games. Dignitas has always been a fairly serious team, lead by a pretty serious CEO who will strait up bring the hammer of Thor down on anyone who messes with the image of Team Dignitas has he not? So why would they risk that kind of hammerfall?
At least Curse you can kind of make a case that they might do something but it's shaky ground at best.
As far as I am concerned the ARAM game was funny, it was entertaining and everyone seemed to enjoy it because the game didn't matter. The game didn't matter. It was a throw away game and both teams agreed on doing it. MLG isn't that blind so I am pretty sure someone on that end knew it as well.
Until I see some hard proof someone needs to buy Curse a trophy because they earned it.
I don't quite understand how:
(1) Tweets from MLG officials outlining the situation --- in particular confronting the teams and their admission of guilt. (2) Official statement from MLG describing the situation and the outcome. (3) Posts on the LoL board by Redbeard explaining the situation on the Riot end. (4) Public video apology by Curse.
Is not enough evidence to convince you (or others that seem to be unconvinced).
What? In the video apaology Curse explicitely said that ALL allegations other than playing an ARAM (read: the match fixing, prize splitting) are false.
Sorry, I don't see that in the video. Is that in the comments somewhere? Closest I heard was this:
"...For what happened today with the ARAM and the allegations of collusion..."
But I didn't hear any explicitly distinction from the ARAM and the collusion allegations, i.e., "sorry for the ARAM; we did not collude".
Excellent. Thanks for that link. So to clarify, the DQ is explicitly for colluding for game 1. My original post was addressing only the cause of the DQ, not whether that cause was warranted.
So just ignore what people at the event said what happened. cool.
It doesn't make sense that Curse and Dignitas would be ok with the punishment if it were just for the ARAM. Why? Because MLG and Riot could have easily stepped in and said "hey, you can't do this" before they played. But that never happened because that wasn't the problem.
Well if their story is true they did collude to play an ARAM in game 1 together. So DQing them for collusion is understandable. But it could simply be that they basically just got DQ'd because of the ARAM game and that the prize splitting and match fixing allegations are false but were believed to be true by MLG/Riot originally.
On August 27 2012 16:01 overt wrote: Well if their story is true they did collude to play an ARAM in game 1 together. So DQing them for collusion is understandable. But it could simply be that they basically just got DQ'd because of the ARAM game and that the prize splitting and match fixing allegations are false but were believed to be true by MLG/Riot originally.
I think that's the biggest problem for them. Honestly, had they not started with an ARAM I sincerely doubt this would even be happening right now. If the games had appeared legit they'd have no reason to believe they had colluded to split pot or anything else and MLG could ignore a small rumor of any impropriety if they had no reason to accept it as fact.
Normal mode doesn't matter, only ranked matters. Ranked solo-queue doesn't matter, only 5v5 matters. 5v5 doesn't matter, only pro scrims matter. Scrims don't matter, only tournament games matter. Online tournaments don't matter, only LANS matter. LANS don't matter, only THEBIGONE matters.
I like how 25k tournaments aren't even worth an hour of our time anymore. If I see Saint tryhard a SINGLE game of a solo-queue in the next 2 weeks then I'm gonna call him out on it since it isn't worth his time. Of course it fucking matters. Not many people on Earth wouldn't do an hours work for several grand.
The whole "hiding strats" argument is retarded too. They've constantly scrim against every team and practice everything against all of them. Even if they wanted to hide something then they just don't play that strat.
Would be a shame if they weren't actually prize-splitting (think that rule is dumb in the first place) but playing the ARAM was stupid in the first place and obviously bring up things like collusion.
On August 27 2012 16:01 overt wrote: Well if their story is true they did collude to play an ARAM in game 1 together. So DQing them for collusion is understandable. But it could simply be that they basically just got DQ'd because of the ARAM game and that the prize splitting and match fixing allegations are false but were believed to be true by MLG/Riot originally.
I think that's the biggest problem for them. Honestly, had they not started with an ARAM I sincerely doubt this would even be happening right now because if the games had appeared legit they'd have no reason to believe they had colluded to split pot or anything else.
Which is why, unless they are fucking idiots, it makes them colluding further than just "ARAM 1st game" unlikely. Why draw extra attention to yourself when you are doing something against the rules?
On August 27 2012 16:01 overt wrote: Well if their story is true they did collude to play an ARAM in game 1 together. So DQing them for collusion is understandable. But it could simply be that they basically just got DQ'd because of the ARAM game and that the prize splitting and match fixing allegations are false but were believed to be true by MLG/Riot originally.
Problem here is that MLG said again and again that the ARAM was not the problem and that they needed to investigate. If an ARAM is grounds for disqualification(Kinda difficult for both teams to accidentally random 5 champions and go mid), there was no reason for the rest of the series to be played out. Which means MLG exploited the players from Game 2 on.
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