On August 27 2012 12:58 overt wrote: It's not even a fair comparison. Were people outraged when HuK mothership rushed in an online tournament that didn't mean shit?
This tournament had no consequences for Dig/Crs. So they ARAM'd game 1. The only problem is if they actually colluded to influence the rankings for the regional finals.
If this had been a case of one team picking a weird comp or some underused champs, that would be a good comparison. As it is, it would be more like HuK and IdrA meeting in the finals of a decently-sized tournament and both agreeing beforehand to just worker rush each other in game 1, or playing a no rush 20 game. It's an agreement between two teams, and it's playing the game in a non-standard way to a much greater degree than a mothership rush.
Add in the agreement to split the pot, and rumours that they fixed the series as well...and it's a much, much bigger deal than you're making out.
On August 27 2012 12:53 Canucklehead wrote: I don't understand why so many are defending the teams and hating on MLG. Playing aram in the finals would be like playing monobattles in the finals of SC 2. It was a complete joke and that there are so many defenders about it shows that the LoL scene has a long way to go regarding professionalism.
I saw riot/mlg employees tweeting about the aram finals like it was awesome and fun to see. Only after the fact where there was outrage by other teams and reddit did they change their tune. They say it's about colluding now because they were complicit in the aram beforehand, so want a new scapegoat answer instead of it being aram.
I agree with the outcome in the end, but I wish they would have just stated the reason was aram in the first place, instead of using the collusion cover.
They were not complacent with ARAM in the finals, in fact Adam was furious about it.
Well to be honest I had trouble deciphering Adam's tweet regarding beating his 9 year old in chess. I read it as, it doesn't matter if they're playing ARAM, players compete to win in anything they play.
With Riot, I saw these two tweet about defending Aram while it was happening.
In the end they can say it's about collusion, but I believe it's about Aram and changing their tune after community outrage. Like I said, I thought Aram itself was sufficient ground to DQ the teams, so would have had no problem if they started it was because of Aram. It was a serious enough offense itself to warrant action.
I really didn't see much community outrage though. Most of the stuff I saw was "Wow this is amazing" etc etc with a small amount of people going "Wow this is so unprofessional"
I mean the LoL forums say it all by themselves, the vocal community was mainly for the ARAM.
This is kind of what I'm thinking is happening. It's really conspiracy theorist-y but this does seem like something Dig and Curse would joke about but nothing they would actually be serious about in a public setting.
I didn't want to fuel conspiracies earlier, but freaking Scoots and Slasher are the sources for MLG. Neither of them has been particularly positive towards Riot, LoL, and LoL players in the past. I wouldn't put it past them to completely miss the joke and then going running to MLG.
Ugh don't remind me of Scoots. It makes me sick that a person so hateful towards and Esport can be considered an authority figure for this community. You're right, that too is very possible. I'm starting to feel really bad for Curse and Dig. They deserve big apologizes if this clears up.
Haha. Reminds me of a joke 2GD made during an interview with FXOBoSs (guy in charge of Team FXO)
On August 27 2012 12:58 overt wrote: It's not even a fair comparison. Were people outraged when HuK mothership rushed in an online tournament that didn't mean shit?
This tournament had no consequences for Dig/Crs. So they ARAM'd game 1. The only problem is if they actually colluded to influence the rankings for the regional finals.
Hmm, not necessarily. I would assume tournament hosts (MLG, IPL, ESL, etc) would want teams to play LoL as it was meant to be played, 5v5 on SR, using all lanes, etc. If Crs.na and Dig took their lineups (already unorthodox) and played it out, that would've been great. It's on par with EloHell using Eve mid at EU Regionals. HuK's mothership is analogous to picking Mid Eve. Unorthodox play, fans goes wild.
ARAM at an offline finals feels like it goes against the spirit of competitive gaming.
It just shouldn't get to the point where the grand final of a major tournament is meaningless for the players. Either don't invite the teams that don't need to give 100% or just don't hold the tournament one week before the regionals.
I distinctly remember Scarra saying this tournament was a joke because no one will show any strategies, if that's not a red flag then I don't know what is. I hope the Season 3 format will be better planned.
On August 27 2012 13:00 Varpulis wrote: so that's what i get for not switching browsers to accomodate MLG's shitty stream :/
my 2c: Pot splitting is a moral grey zone, but I don't really have a problem with it as long as the games are still high quality/entertaining (weird strats/risky big plays, etc, stuff that's cool to see but not probably optimal in a game you really need to win), but if you agree to split the pot and proceed to put 0 effort into the matches, it's a disservice to the fans and disrespectful to the tournament organizers. I haven't seen the games in question, so I can't comment on their quality, but imo this isn't as big a deal as its made out to be.
With that said, I think playing the ARAM was a bad decision. Regardless of whether or not it was entertaining/competitive, it gave the message that the players weren't taking the series seriously.
Nothing left to do but wait and see, everybody involved is blaming somebody else it seems
But what if it was competitive? Is it the team's fault? For being competitive? I'm not saying you are wrong about the not taking it seriously part, but you can't conclude that it is a bad decision on their part if you can't conclude whether or not it was competitive. As for entertainment, i think that is really in the grey zone.
completely honest, I don't understand how people find ARAM so fun to watch, it's literally an instant turn off the stream on players streams for me, the game is TERRIBLE to watch (70+ kills =/= interesting)
On August 27 2012 13:10 Slusher wrote: completely honest, I don't understand how people find ARAM so fun to watch, it's literally an instant turn off the stream on players streams for me, the game is TERRIBLE to watch (70+ kills =/= interesting)
Personally I feel it's like how many people like high scoring NFL games. They like points. Or maybe they have a short attention span so games with less "big moments" don't appeal to them.
The reason I have trouble seeing it as competitive is that the rules of a League of Legends game are not ARAM. If one team's goal was to win the game they were playing, they would have played normally. By agreeing to handicap themselves with ARAM rules, they were not trying their hardest to win the game. And it was a handicap, or else teams would do all-random-all-mid every game if it gave them the best chance to win.
I simply don't buy the counterargument that because they were both playing ARAM, it was equally competitive. Again going back to the NBA, no pro team would ever put blindfolds on themselves to make the game "more fun" or sillier in a serious game, even if the other team adhered to the same rules. Yeah, it'd have entertainment value. So does the WWE. I had hoped LoL as an esport was apiring for something closer to the NBA than to the Globetrotters or to WWE.
On August 27 2012 13:10 Slusher wrote: completely honest, I don't understand how people find ARAM so fun to watch, it's literally an instant turn off the stream on players streams for me, the game is TERRIBLE to watch (70+ kills =/= interesting)
Personally I feel it's like how many people like high scoring NFL games. They like points. Or maybe they have a short attention span so games with less "big moments" don't appeal to them.
but in an aram a kill isn't even a big moment. guy hangs around in a fight with 50 hp is going to eventually die.
On August 27 2012 13:13 TCK wrote: The reason I have trouble seeing it as competitive is that the rules of a League of Legends game are not ARAM. If one team's goal was to win the game they were playing, they would have played normally. By agreeing to handicap themselves with ARAM rules, they were not trying their hardest to win the game. And it was a handicap, or else teams would do all-random-all-mid every game if it gave them the best chance to win.
I simply don't buy the counterargument that because they were both playing ARAM, it was equally competitive. Again going back to the NBA, no pro team would ever put blindfolds on themselves to make the game "more fun" or sillier in a serious game, even if the other team adhered to the same rules. Yeah, it'd have entertainment value. So does the WWE. I had hoped LoL as an esport was apiring for something closer to the NBA than to the Globetrotters or to WWE.
I wouldn't judge the whole eSport based off an alleged mistake without any malicious intent by two teams.
On August 27 2012 13:10 Slusher wrote: completely honest, I don't understand how people find ARAM so fun to watch, it's literally an instant turn off the stream on players streams for me, the game is TERRIBLE to watch (70+ kills =/= interesting)
Personally I feel it's like how many people like high scoring NFL games. They like points. Or maybe they have a short attention span so games with less "big moments" don't appeal to them.
but in an aram a kill isn't even a big moment. guy hangs around in a fight with 50 hp is going to eventually die.
I know it's not, but it may be perceived that way by people who watch/play it more casually. I can tell you things that aren't big moments in SC2 or Halo or R6 but casual players and viewers believed they were.
Personally I feel it's like how many people like high scoring NFL games. They like points. Or maybe they have a short attention span so games with less "big moments" don't appeal to them.
They like high scoring NFL games where everyone tries their hardest according to standard NFL rules. There's a reason people don't watch the Pro Bowl, where the scores are high but nobody playing really cares, especially on defense.
On August 27 2012 13:16 mr_tolkien wrote: Could we have a dedicated thread which centralizes valuable information ? In the last 20 pages, nobody is speaking about anything else anymore :/
It seems everyone has quieted down for the night. I haven't seen anything new on twitter or reddit.
I wish we can take a poll here on TL to see if our members think the two teams colluded or not. Perhaps a new discussion on this issue since it has so much controversy?
I wouldn't judge the whole eSport based off an alleged mistake without any malicious intent by two teams.
Oh, I won't. There's been lots of great play, and it seems like Curse at least regrets it. I just don't quite understand people who think it's no problem to play that way in a tournament finals, regardless of the impact on seedings down the line. And it seems like there are a lot of them.
On August 27 2012 13:00 Varpulis wrote: so that's what i get for not switching browsers to accomodate MLG's shitty stream :/
my 2c: Pot splitting is a moral grey zone, but I don't really have a problem with it as long as the games are still high quality/entertaining (weird strats/risky big plays, etc, stuff that's cool to see but not probably optimal in a game you really need to win), but if you agree to split the pot and proceed to put 0 effort into the matches, it's a disservice to the fans and disrespectful to the tournament organizers. I haven't seen the games in question, so I can't comment on their quality, but imo this isn't as big a deal as its made out to be.
With that said, I think playing the ARAM was a bad decision. Regardless of whether or not it was entertaining/competitive, it gave the message that the players weren't taking the series seriously.
Nothing left to do but wait and see, everybody involved is blaming somebody else it seems
But what if it was competitive? Is it the team's fault? For being competitive? I'm not saying you are wrong about the not taking it seriously part, but you can't conclude that it is a bad decision on their part if you can't conclude whether or not it was competitive. As for entertainment, i think that is really in the grey zone.
For me the problem doesn't really lie in the fact that it was specifically an ARAM, which are by definition random and very arguably about as competitive as betting on dicerolls, but that they were playing a different game than they were in the finals to play. What would the reaction have been if they had played the first game on dominion? The problem is not that they played a joke game, but that they didn't play the same game as every other team in the tournament did.
On August 27 2012 12:58 overt wrote: It's not even a fair comparison. Were people outraged when HuK mothership rushed in an online tournament that didn't mean shit?
This tournament had no consequences for Dig/Crs. So they ARAM'd game 1. The only problem is if they actually colluded to influence the rankings for the regional finals.
Hmm, not necessarily. I would assume tournament hosts (MLG, IPL, ESL, etc) would want teams to play LoL as it was meant to be played, 5v5 on SR, using all lanes, etc. If Crs.na and Dig took their lineups (already unorthodox) and played it out, that would've been great. It's on par with EloHell using Eve mid at EU Regionals. HuK's mothership is analogous to picking Mid Eve. Unorthodox play, fans goes wild.
ARAM at an offline finals feels like it goes against the spirit of competitive gaming.
On August 27 2012 13:13 TCK wrote: The reason I have trouble seeing it as competitive is that the rules of a League of Legends game are not ARAM. If one team's goal was to win the game they were playing, they would have played normally. By agreeing to handicap themselves with ARAM rules, they were not trying their hardest to win the game. And it was a handicap, or else teams would do all-random-all-mid every game if it gave them the best chance to win.
I simply don't buy the counterargument that because they were both playing ARAM, it was equally competitive. Again going back to the NBA, no pro team would ever put blindfolds on themselves to make the game "more fun" or sillier in a serious game, even if the other team adhered to the same rules. Yeah, it'd have entertainment value. So does the WWE. I had hoped LoL as an esport was apiring for something closer to the NBA than to the Globetrotters or to WWE.
I wouldn't judge the whole eSport based off an alleged mistake without any malicious intent by two teams.
Also I'd much rather esports would set their own trend rather than be the NBA.
On August 27 2012 13:16 mr_tolkien wrote: Could we have a dedicated thread which centralizes valuable information ? In the last 20 pages, nobody is speaking about anything else anymore :/
It seems everyone has quieted down for the night. I haven't seen anything new on twitter or reddit.
Well we'll continue discuting it, and have a clear first post with important info would be clearer for anyboy arriving in this shitstorm.
EPT
