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At any point of IEM Season 6 Championship, if you think of an interesting byline, please drop a sentence in the Pro Scene thread. At the end of the month, I'll catalogue the results of Hannover but also any interesting facts or events that happen over the course of the tournament. Thanks. Neo, 06.03.2012 |
On March 08 2012 05:26 arnath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 04:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
Meh. It isnt just TRM, or his picking. TOO is an incredibly weak jungler both in terms of the champs he plays and the way he plays them. You can try to blame TRM for not picking stronger top lanes, but then again, you could also point at TOO for not playing stronger jungles either (or even playing them well when he DOES get them). The champs he plays? He played Maokai, Lee Sin, Udyr, and Shen today. His playstyle aside, all of those are excellent junglers except possibly Shen (Lee Sin I'll give you depends on your feelings on the hero and your playstyle but plenty of people play him effectively).
In the case of those champs, he played them all in a much less effective way than SV or Snoopeh would have. I mean SV singlehandedly beat TSM with udyr in the Curse invitational. When is the last time TOO singlehandedly won a game of Solo q?
And in this sense, the weakest of those junglers is actually maokai because he gives you no map control. Sure, he gives good lane control but he cant dual, isnt a great counterjungler, and has no dragon control at all.
But the big thing is he just doesnt know what he is doing anymore. Its as simple as that. He doesnt know how to farm, so he ends up camping lanes forever, then buying shit items and dissapearing from the game. He cant farm, he cant carry, he cant counterjungle, he cant make calls, he just isnt doing ANYTHING.
Contrast that with Snooph. Snoopeh plays the same characters as TOO- Maokai, Alistar- only he NEVER dissapears.
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On March 08 2012 05:31 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 05:26 arnath wrote:On March 08 2012 04:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
Meh. It isnt just TRM, or his picking. TOO is an incredibly weak jungler both in terms of the champs he plays and the way he plays them. You can try to blame TRM for not picking stronger top lanes, but then again, you could also point at TOO for not playing stronger jungles either (or even playing them well when he DOES get them). The champs he plays? He played Maokai, Lee Sin, Udyr, and Shen today. His playstyle aside, all of those are excellent junglers except possibly Shen (Lee Sin I'll give you depends on your feelings on the hero and your playstyle but plenty of people play him effectively). In the case of those champs, he played them all in a much less effective way than SV or Snoopeh would have. I mean SV singlehandedly beat TSM with udyr in the Curse invitational. When is the last time TOO singlehandedly won a game of Solo q?
Agreed on this point.
On March 08 2012 05:31 Two_DoWn wrote:
And in this sense, the weakest of those junglers is actually maokai because he gives you no map control. Sure, he gives good lane control but he cant dual, isnt a great counterjungler, and has no dragon control at all.
I don't really think that this is true. Maokai's arguably the best jungle ganker in the game outside of Rammus who's basically banned every single game and he's excellent in team fights. If you play properly, the constant threat of Maokai ganks can give you excellent map control. His big weakness is that he doesn't provide much dragon control and you can't necessarily carry games (which makes him a bad solo queue jungler). That said, I think he's great in arranged teams and, for example, Snoopeh exerts excellent game control as Maokai.
On March 08 2012 05:31 Two_DoWn wrote:
But the big thing is he just doesnt know what he is doing anymore. Its as simple as that. He doesnt know how to farm, so he ends up camping lanes forever, then buying shit items and dissapearing from the game. He cant farm, he cant carry, he cant counterjungle, he cant make calls, he just isnt doing ANYTHING.
Contrast that with Snooph. Snoopeh plays the same characters as TOO- Maokai, Alistar- only he NEVER dissapears.
My point was just that you can't really criticize his hero choice, just the way he played the ones he chose. It's not like he pulled out jungle Blitz or something stupid.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 08 2012 05:31 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 05:26 arnath wrote:On March 08 2012 04:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
Meh. It isnt just TRM, or his picking. TOO is an incredibly weak jungler both in terms of the champs he plays and the way he plays them. You can try to blame TRM for not picking stronger top lanes, but then again, you could also point at TOO for not playing stronger jungles either (or even playing them well when he DOES get them). The champs he plays? He played Maokai, Lee Sin, Udyr, and Shen today. His playstyle aside, all of those are excellent junglers except possibly Shen (Lee Sin I'll give you depends on your feelings on the hero and your playstyle but plenty of people play him effectively). In the case of those champs, he played them all in a much less effective way than SV or Snoopeh would have. I mean SV singlehandedly beat TSM with udyr in the Curse invitational. When is the last time TOO singlehandedly won a game of Solo q? And in this sense, the weakest of those junglers is actually maokai because he gives you no map control. Sure, he gives good lane control but he cant dual, isnt a great counterjungler, and has no dragon control at all. But the big thing is he just doesnt know what he is doing anymore. Its as simple as that. He doesnt know how to farm, so he ends up camping lanes forever, then buying shit items and dissapearing from the game. He cant farm, he cant carry, he cant counterjungle, he cant make calls, he just isnt doing ANYTHING. Contrast that with Snooph. Snoopeh plays the same characters as TOO- Maokai, Alistar- only he NEVER dissapears.
Haha, I think you're exaggerating a little just to prove a point. I do generally agree with you though.
However, Snoopeh's team makes him look just a multitude of leagues higher than TOO's team. It is just a totally different game when all 3 of your lanes are incredibly strong. When you know your entire team is competent, most essentially your jungle, you are open to make plays that might seem more risky, but because you have a competent jungle you can force the lane into a risky situation for both sides, that you can capitalize on with jungle help. This is only the most simplified way of saying it though.
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United States47024 Posts
I think the thing that bothers me most about TOO's play isn't just that he has no influence on the game, but he doesn't seem to KNOW that he has no influence on the game.
There will be games where you get behind, and you have a hard time ganking effectively. It happens. But in those games, it's often possible for your AP mid to pick up the slack. You may not be able to have a good gank tempo, but you can create room for your AP to move around so that HE can. But TOO doesn't seem to recognize where he doesn't have control anymore and needs to start letting Regi pick up the tempo.
The prime example of this was during the game vs. Crs where, because Regi refreshed his blue from killing Morgana, TOO took their blue buff instead of saving it for Regi--and then proceeded to do absolutely nothing with it. If all you're going to do is farm, there's zero point for you to have the blue. Just ward the blue and give it to Regi when yours is up.
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I will fully admit I am lower on Maokai than some people are.
That being said, you cannot deny that while he has a very good gank, he has poor clear, dual, and dragon control.
Plus, unlike rammus, if you see maokai coming you can run.
But IF you are going to run Maokai, you better be sure that your lanes are going to win. TSM cant make that happen anymore. Dignitas and CLG.eu, the other prominant Maokai users, can.
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i honestly think reginald just makes the rest of TSM worse players
even outside of game -> solomid all wearing solomid shirts except reginald, who has on a douche-max "FK IT BAYLIFE" shirt. he wants his own brand, he doesn't even want to be a part of solomid or represent them. the rest of the team has on serious faces and trying to focus for the game -> regi jumping around making faces and nip-flicking the clearly uninterested TSM. he has got to be such a distraction. i've heard that regi "owns/runs" the house/team though, so they can't just oust him. so instead they're all just made miserable by him, it would appear
TOO is really good jungler, i think you guys are crazy. TRM is of course just TRM. losing lanes he should win, or winning lanes and doing nothing with the advantage. props to TSM for sticking with rainman, i really like loyalty, but he's definitely not helping them at all
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On March 08 2012 05:41 nehcnhoj wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 08 2012 05:31 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 05:26 arnath wrote:On March 08 2012 04:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
Meh. It isnt just TRM, or his picking. TOO is an incredibly weak jungler both in terms of the champs he plays and the way he plays them. You can try to blame TRM for not picking stronger top lanes, but then again, you could also point at TOO for not playing stronger jungles either (or even playing them well when he DOES get them). The champs he plays? He played Maokai, Lee Sin, Udyr, and Shen today. His playstyle aside, all of those are excellent junglers except possibly Shen (Lee Sin I'll give you depends on your feelings on the hero and your playstyle but plenty of people play him effectively). In the case of those champs, he played them all in a much less effective way than SV or Snoopeh would have. I mean SV singlehandedly beat TSM with udyr in the Curse invitational. When is the last time TOO singlehandedly won a game of Solo q? And in this sense, the weakest of those junglers is actually maokai because he gives you no map control. Sure, he gives good lane control but he cant dual, isnt a great counterjungler, and has no dragon control at all. But the big thing is he just doesnt know what he is doing anymore. Its as simple as that. He doesnt know how to farm, so he ends up camping lanes forever, then buying shit items and dissapearing from the game. He cant farm, he cant carry, he cant counterjungle, he cant make calls, he just isnt doing ANYTHING. Contrast that with Snooph. Snoopeh plays the same characters as TOO- Maokai, Alistar- only he NEVER dissapears. Haha, I think you're exaggerating a little just to prove a point. I do generally agree with you though. However, Snoopeh's team makes him look just a multitude of leagues higher than TOO's team. It is just a totally different game when all 3 of your lanes are incredibly strong. When you know your entire team is competent, most essentially your jungle, you are open to make plays that might seem more risky, but because you have a competent jungle you can force the lane into a risky situation for both sides, that you can capitalize on with jungle help. This is only the most simplified way of saying it though.
How is he exaggerating? All TOO every does is pick ganky/supportty jungles, camp mid and get underfarmed while buying excessive amounts of doran items.
TRM gets thrown under the bus because the other team usually laughs and just has their jungler exert pressure on top/bot. Chaos wins his lane becuase all he plays now is Cait/MF...
The other thing is their whole team seems sooo behind in how the game works it just isn't even funny. They all seem to think that just winning their lanes should mean everyone they play surrenders at 20. Thing is, they always have early game centric team comps, they always have early game centric item builds, and they aren't good at making calls to push advantages they gain early on.
All a team playing against TSM has to do is manage to survive till 30 minutes with minimal amounts of farm and they win every time.
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On March 08 2012 05:47 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 05:41 nehcnhoj wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 08 2012 05:31 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 05:26 arnath wrote:On March 08 2012 04:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
Meh. It isnt just TRM, or his picking. TOO is an incredibly weak jungler both in terms of the champs he plays and the way he plays them. You can try to blame TRM for not picking stronger top lanes, but then again, you could also point at TOO for not playing stronger jungles either (or even playing them well when he DOES get them). The champs he plays? He played Maokai, Lee Sin, Udyr, and Shen today. His playstyle aside, all of those are excellent junglers except possibly Shen (Lee Sin I'll give you depends on your feelings on the hero and your playstyle but plenty of people play him effectively). In the case of those champs, he played them all in a much less effective way than SV or Snoopeh would have. I mean SV singlehandedly beat TSM with udyr in the Curse invitational. When is the last time TOO singlehandedly won a game of Solo q? And in this sense, the weakest of those junglers is actually maokai because he gives you no map control. Sure, he gives good lane control but he cant dual, isnt a great counterjungler, and has no dragon control at all. But the big thing is he just doesnt know what he is doing anymore. Its as simple as that. He doesnt know how to farm, so he ends up camping lanes forever, then buying shit items and dissapearing from the game. He cant farm, he cant carry, he cant counterjungle, he cant make calls, he just isnt doing ANYTHING. Contrast that with Snooph. Snoopeh plays the same characters as TOO- Maokai, Alistar- only he NEVER dissapears. + Show Spoiler + Haha, I think you're exaggerating a little just to prove a point. I do generally agree with you though. However, Snoopeh's team makes him look just a multitude of leagues higher than TOO's team. It is just a totally different game when all 3 of your lanes are incredibly strong. When you know your entire team is competent, most essentially your jungle, you are open to make plays that might seem more risky, but because you have a competent jungle you can force the lane into a risky situation for both sides, that you can capitalize on with jungle help. This is only the most simplified way of saying it though. How is he exaggerating? All TOO every does is pick ganky/supportty jungles, camp mid and get underfarmed while buying excessive amounts of doran items. TRM gets thrown under the bus because the other team usually laughs and just has their jungler exert pressure on top/bot. Chaos wins his lane becuase all he plays now is Cait/MF... The other thing is their whole team seems sooo behind in how the game works it just isn't even funny. They all seem to think that just winning their lanes should mean everyone they play surrenders at 20. Thing is, they always have early game centric team comps, they always have early game centric item builds, and they aren't good at making calls to push advantages they gain early on. All a team playing against TSM has to do is manage to survive till 30 minutes with minimal amounts of farm and they win every time.
What I meant by exaggerating is that. TOO is that mediocre partially because his team is that mediocre. and Snoopeh is such a playmaking jungler because his team facilitates that playmaking.
TOO does a lot of quality things. He times every buff, he reminds everyone in his team of dragon timers, reminds them to buy, reminds them to move for dragon or other objectives. He lets you know that he'll be in your lane in X seconds so you can try to setup a good wave position.
Granted, he does have no direction in mind of the big picture when he plays, but I attribute that a lot to the fact that you really cannot learn all of that with a team like TSM, they simply don't have the building blocks to facilitate for that level of play yet. I might be being slightly harsh, but all the points I made, have some truth, in my opinion anyways.
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On March 08 2012 05:06 Mogwai wrote:
TOO has been pretty far behind the curve ever since the jungle changes it seems. IMO at least.
TRM's weak too, but I agree with T_D here, TOO deserves a lot of the blame that all seems to be getting dumped on TRM.
He just doesn't gank on certain junglers. That Shen of his, his only kill was the ult to TRM when he was dove. Zero ganks besides that, whereas Noct had like 4.
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On March 08 2012 05:55 nehcnhoj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 05:47 iCanada wrote:On March 08 2012 05:41 nehcnhoj wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 08 2012 05:31 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 05:26 arnath wrote:On March 08 2012 04:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
Meh. It isnt just TRM, or his picking. TOO is an incredibly weak jungler both in terms of the champs he plays and the way he plays them. You can try to blame TRM for not picking stronger top lanes, but then again, you could also point at TOO for not playing stronger jungles either (or even playing them well when he DOES get them). The champs he plays? He played Maokai, Lee Sin, Udyr, and Shen today. His playstyle aside, all of those are excellent junglers except possibly Shen (Lee Sin I'll give you depends on your feelings on the hero and your playstyle but plenty of people play him effectively). In the case of those champs, he played them all in a much less effective way than SV or Snoopeh would have. I mean SV singlehandedly beat TSM with udyr in the Curse invitational. When is the last time TOO singlehandedly won a game of Solo q? And in this sense, the weakest of those junglers is actually maokai because he gives you no map control. Sure, he gives good lane control but he cant dual, isnt a great counterjungler, and has no dragon control at all. But the big thing is he just doesnt know what he is doing anymore. Its as simple as that. He doesnt know how to farm, so he ends up camping lanes forever, then buying shit items and dissapearing from the game. He cant farm, he cant carry, he cant counterjungle, he cant make calls, he just isnt doing ANYTHING. Contrast that with Snooph. Snoopeh plays the same characters as TOO- Maokai, Alistar- only he NEVER dissapears. + Show Spoiler + Haha, I think you're exaggerating a little just to prove a point. I do generally agree with you though. However, Snoopeh's team makes him look just a multitude of leagues higher than TOO's team. It is just a totally different game when all 3 of your lanes are incredibly strong. When you know your entire team is competent, most essentially your jungle, you are open to make plays that might seem more risky, but because you have a competent jungle you can force the lane into a risky situation for both sides, that you can capitalize on with jungle help. This is only the most simplified way of saying it though. How is he exaggerating? All TOO every does is pick ganky/supportty jungles, camp mid and get underfarmed while buying excessive amounts of doran items. TRM gets thrown under the bus because the other team usually laughs and just has their jungler exert pressure on top/bot. Chaos wins his lane becuase all he plays now is Cait/MF... The other thing is their whole team seems sooo behind in how the game works it just isn't even funny. They all seem to think that just winning their lanes should mean everyone they play surrenders at 20. Thing is, they always have early game centric team comps, they always have early game centric item builds, and they aren't good at making calls to push advantages they gain early on. All a team playing against TSM has to do is manage to survive till 30 minutes with minimal amounts of farm and they win every time. What I meant by exaggerating is that. TOO is that mediocre partially because his team is that mediocre. and Snoopeh is such a playmaking jungler because his team facilitates that playmaking. TOO does a lot of quality things. He times every buff, he reminds everyone in his team of dragon timers, reminds them to buy, reminds them to move for dragon or other objectives. He lets you know that he'll be in your lane in X seconds so you can try to setup a good wave position. Granted, he does have no direction in mind of the big picture when he plays, but I attribute that a lot to the fact that you really cannot learn all of that with a team like TSM, they simply don't have the building blocks to facilitate for that level of play yet. I might be being slightly harsh, but all the points I made, have some truth, in my opinion anyways.
Woah woah woah, TOO times buffs? That changes everything...
Not to be rude, but every jungler past like 1400 does all of those fairly consistently. Its hardly a good supporting arguement.
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On March 08 2012 04:58 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 04:56 unichan wrote:
curse vs clg/dignitas
very bias because i lub nyjacky
and i only care about NA teams Unibro, Pobelterless Curse is playing CLG tomorrow in the quarters. You cant have a Curse v CLG final.
well i just want to see curse play ok u know what i meant LOL
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I wish they would cut the setup time from the rebroadcast...
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Editting takes time. Especialy if you wanne cut bits out ect. So in order the bring you the rerun 30min after the end of the broadcast they kinda have to just play the entire thing again.
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On March 08 2012 06:09 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 05:55 nehcnhoj wrote:On March 08 2012 05:47 iCanada wrote:On March 08 2012 05:41 nehcnhoj wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 08 2012 05:31 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 05:26 arnath wrote:On March 08 2012 04:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
Meh. It isnt just TRM, or his picking. TOO is an incredibly weak jungler both in terms of the champs he plays and the way he plays them. You can try to blame TRM for not picking stronger top lanes, but then again, you could also point at TOO for not playing stronger jungles either (or even playing them well when he DOES get them). The champs he plays? He played Maokai, Lee Sin, Udyr, and Shen today. His playstyle aside, all of those are excellent junglers except possibly Shen (Lee Sin I'll give you depends on your feelings on the hero and your playstyle but plenty of people play him effectively). In the case of those champs, he played them all in a much less effective way than SV or Snoopeh would have. I mean SV singlehandedly beat TSM with udyr in the Curse invitational. When is the last time TOO singlehandedly won a game of Solo q? And in this sense, the weakest of those junglers is actually maokai because he gives you no map control. Sure, he gives good lane control but he cant dual, isnt a great counterjungler, and has no dragon control at all. But the big thing is he just doesnt know what he is doing anymore. Its as simple as that. He doesnt know how to farm, so he ends up camping lanes forever, then buying shit items and dissapearing from the game. He cant farm, he cant carry, he cant counterjungle, he cant make calls, he just isnt doing ANYTHING. Contrast that with Snooph. Snoopeh plays the same characters as TOO- Maokai, Alistar- only he NEVER dissapears. + Show Spoiler + Haha, I think you're exaggerating a little just to prove a point. I do generally agree with you though. However, Snoopeh's team makes him look just a multitude of leagues higher than TOO's team. It is just a totally different game when all 3 of your lanes are incredibly strong. When you know your entire team is competent, most essentially your jungle, you are open to make plays that might seem more risky, but because you have a competent jungle you can force the lane into a risky situation for both sides, that you can capitalize on with jungle help. This is only the most simplified way of saying it though. How is he exaggerating? All TOO every does is pick ganky/supportty jungles, camp mid and get underfarmed while buying excessive amounts of doran items. TRM gets thrown under the bus because the other team usually laughs and just has their jungler exert pressure on top/bot. Chaos wins his lane becuase all he plays now is Cait/MF... The other thing is their whole team seems sooo behind in how the game works it just isn't even funny. They all seem to think that just winning their lanes should mean everyone they play surrenders at 20. Thing is, they always have early game centric team comps, they always have early game centric item builds, and they aren't good at making calls to push advantages they gain early on. All a team playing against TSM has to do is manage to survive till 30 minutes with minimal amounts of farm and they win every time. What I meant by exaggerating is that. TOO is that mediocre partially because his team is that mediocre. and Snoopeh is such a playmaking jungler because his team facilitates that playmaking. TOO does a lot of quality things. He times every buff, he reminds everyone in his team of dragon timers, reminds them to buy, reminds them to move for dragon or other objectives. He lets you know that he'll be in your lane in X seconds so you can try to setup a good wave position. Granted, he does have no direction in mind of the big picture when he plays, but I attribute that a lot to the fact that you really cannot learn all of that with a team like TSM, they simply don't have the building blocks to facilitate for that level of play yet. I might be being slightly harsh, but all the points I made, have some truth, in my opinion anyways. Woah woah woah, TOO times buffs? That changes everything... Not to be rude, but every jungler past like 1400 does all of those fairly consistently. Its hardly a good supporting arguement.
no they don't
i'll tell you what, you post 3 replays from 1400 elo level with junglers (that are not you nor your duo partner) timing their buffs and i'll buy you $10 RP
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If Curse are smart they wouldn't let Sydtko play in this tourney. The sub probably did more for them than what stydko will ever accomplish.
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I was surprised ehome went 1-4 and tsm didn't do well.
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On March 08 2012 06:52 dooraven wrote:
If Curse are smart they wouldn't let Sydtko play in this tourney. The sub probably did more for them than what stydko will ever accomplish.
That would probably be the ultimate diss.
Come late for a tournament and find out your team rather has a random guy from the street instead of you :p
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On March 08 2012 06:46 deskscaress wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 06:09 iCanada wrote:On March 08 2012 05:55 nehcnhoj wrote:On March 08 2012 05:47 iCanada wrote:On March 08 2012 05:41 nehcnhoj wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 08 2012 05:31 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 05:26 arnath wrote:On March 08 2012 04:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
Meh. It isnt just TRM, or his picking. TOO is an incredibly weak jungler both in terms of the champs he plays and the way he plays them. You can try to blame TRM for not picking stronger top lanes, but then again, you could also point at TOO for not playing stronger jungles either (or even playing them well when he DOES get them). The champs he plays? He played Maokai, Lee Sin, Udyr, and Shen today. His playstyle aside, all of those are excellent junglers except possibly Shen (Lee Sin I'll give you depends on your feelings on the hero and your playstyle but plenty of people play him effectively). In the case of those champs, he played them all in a much less effective way than SV or Snoopeh would have. I mean SV singlehandedly beat TSM with udyr in the Curse invitational. When is the last time TOO singlehandedly won a game of Solo q? And in this sense, the weakest of those junglers is actually maokai because he gives you no map control. Sure, he gives good lane control but he cant dual, isnt a great counterjungler, and has no dragon control at all. But the big thing is he just doesnt know what he is doing anymore. Its as simple as that. He doesnt know how to farm, so he ends up camping lanes forever, then buying shit items and dissapearing from the game. He cant farm, he cant carry, he cant counterjungle, he cant make calls, he just isnt doing ANYTHING. Contrast that with Snooph. Snoopeh plays the same characters as TOO- Maokai, Alistar- only he NEVER dissapears. + Show Spoiler + Haha, I think you're exaggerating a little just to prove a point. I do generally agree with you though. However, Snoopeh's team makes him look just a multitude of leagues higher than TOO's team. It is just a totally different game when all 3 of your lanes are incredibly strong. When you know your entire team is competent, most essentially your jungle, you are open to make plays that might seem more risky, but because you have a competent jungle you can force the lane into a risky situation for both sides, that you can capitalize on with jungle help. This is only the most simplified way of saying it though. How is he exaggerating? All TOO every does is pick ganky/supportty jungles, camp mid and get underfarmed while buying excessive amounts of doran items. TRM gets thrown under the bus because the other team usually laughs and just has their jungler exert pressure on top/bot. Chaos wins his lane becuase all he plays now is Cait/MF... The other thing is their whole team seems sooo behind in how the game works it just isn't even funny. They all seem to think that just winning their lanes should mean everyone they play surrenders at 20. Thing is, they always have early game centric team comps, they always have early game centric item builds, and they aren't good at making calls to push advantages they gain early on. All a team playing against TSM has to do is manage to survive till 30 minutes with minimal amounts of farm and they win every time. What I meant by exaggerating is that. TOO is that mediocre partially because his team is that mediocre. and Snoopeh is such a playmaking jungler because his team facilitates that playmaking. TOO does a lot of quality things. He times every buff, he reminds everyone in his team of dragon timers, reminds them to buy, reminds them to move for dragon or other objectives. He lets you know that he'll be in your lane in X seconds so you can try to setup a good wave position. Granted, he does have no direction in mind of the big picture when he plays, but I attribute that a lot to the fact that you really cannot learn all of that with a team like TSM, they simply don't have the building blocks to facilitate for that level of play yet. I might be being slightly harsh, but all the points I made, have some truth, in my opinion anyways. Woah woah woah, TOO times buffs? That changes everything... Not to be rude, but every jungler past like 1400 does all of those fairly consistently. Its hardly a good supporting arguement. no they don't i'll tell you what, you post 3 replays from 1400 elo level with junglers (that are not you nor your duo partner) timing their buffs and i'll buy you $10 RP
To add to this, Saint doesn't even time dragon or baron. Instead he yells at Chauster when Chauster doesn't time them. xD
And Saint never times anything in solo queue that I've seen.
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On March 08 2012 06:46 deskscaress wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 06:09 iCanada wrote:On March 08 2012 05:55 nehcnhoj wrote:On March 08 2012 05:47 iCanada wrote:On March 08 2012 05:41 nehcnhoj wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 08 2012 05:31 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 05:26 arnath wrote:On March 08 2012 04:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
Meh. It isnt just TRM, or his picking. TOO is an incredibly weak jungler both in terms of the champs he plays and the way he plays them. You can try to blame TRM for not picking stronger top lanes, but then again, you could also point at TOO for not playing stronger jungles either (or even playing them well when he DOES get them). The champs he plays? He played Maokai, Lee Sin, Udyr, and Shen today. His playstyle aside, all of those are excellent junglers except possibly Shen (Lee Sin I'll give you depends on your feelings on the hero and your playstyle but plenty of people play him effectively). In the case of those champs, he played them all in a much less effective way than SV or Snoopeh would have. I mean SV singlehandedly beat TSM with udyr in the Curse invitational. When is the last time TOO singlehandedly won a game of Solo q? And in this sense, the weakest of those junglers is actually maokai because he gives you no map control. Sure, he gives good lane control but he cant dual, isnt a great counterjungler, and has no dragon control at all. But the big thing is he just doesnt know what he is doing anymore. Its as simple as that. He doesnt know how to farm, so he ends up camping lanes forever, then buying shit items and dissapearing from the game. He cant farm, he cant carry, he cant counterjungle, he cant make calls, he just isnt doing ANYTHING. Contrast that with Snooph. Snoopeh plays the same characters as TOO- Maokai, Alistar- only he NEVER dissapears. + Show Spoiler + Haha, I think you're exaggerating a little just to prove a point. I do generally agree with you though. However, Snoopeh's team makes him look just a multitude of leagues higher than TOO's team. It is just a totally different game when all 3 of your lanes are incredibly strong. When you know your entire team is competent, most essentially your jungle, you are open to make plays that might seem more risky, but because you have a competent jungle you can force the lane into a risky situation for both sides, that you can capitalize on with jungle help. This is only the most simplified way of saying it though. How is he exaggerating? All TOO every does is pick ganky/supportty jungles, camp mid and get underfarmed while buying excessive amounts of doran items. TRM gets thrown under the bus because the other team usually laughs and just has their jungler exert pressure on top/bot. Chaos wins his lane becuase all he plays now is Cait/MF... The other thing is their whole team seems sooo behind in how the game works it just isn't even funny. They all seem to think that just winning their lanes should mean everyone they play surrenders at 20. Thing is, they always have early game centric team comps, they always have early game centric item builds, and they aren't good at making calls to push advantages they gain early on. All a team playing against TSM has to do is manage to survive till 30 minutes with minimal amounts of farm and they win every time. What I meant by exaggerating is that. TOO is that mediocre partially because his team is that mediocre. and Snoopeh is such a playmaking jungler because his team facilitates that playmaking. TOO does a lot of quality things. He times every buff, he reminds everyone in his team of dragon timers, reminds them to buy, reminds them to move for dragon or other objectives. He lets you know that he'll be in your lane in X seconds so you can try to setup a good wave position. Granted, he does have no direction in mind of the big picture when he plays, but I attribute that a lot to the fact that you really cannot learn all of that with a team like TSM, they simply don't have the building blocks to facilitate for that level of play yet. I might be being slightly harsh, but all the points I made, have some truth, in my opinion anyways. Woah woah woah, TOO times buffs? That changes everything... Not to be rude, but every jungler past like 1400 does all of those fairly consistently. Its hardly a good supporting arguement. no they don't i'll tell you what, you post 3 replays from 1400 elo level with junglers (that are not you nor your duo partner) timing their buffs and i'll buy you $10 RP
Okay, you missed the point...
All good jungles either time buffs or know the time they should spawn based on their opponent a route anyway. That, and its not like it is hard to execute, only reason not to is laziness. Its like not splitting your drones in SC.... Hardly a huge boon on some ones abilities.
Edit: further more, now that chat log has game time, you just need to press enter + ob/tb/or/tr/d/b...
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On March 08 2012 07:27 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 06:46 deskscaress wrote:On March 08 2012 06:09 iCanada wrote:On March 08 2012 05:55 nehcnhoj wrote:On March 08 2012 05:47 iCanada wrote:On March 08 2012 05:41 nehcnhoj wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 08 2012 05:31 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 05:26 arnath wrote:On March 08 2012 04:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
Meh. It isnt just TRM, or his picking. TOO is an incredibly weak jungler both in terms of the champs he plays and the way he plays them. You can try to blame TRM for not picking stronger top lanes, but then again, you could also point at TOO for not playing stronger jungles either (or even playing them well when he DOES get them). The champs he plays? He played Maokai, Lee Sin, Udyr, and Shen today. His playstyle aside, all of those are excellent junglers except possibly Shen (Lee Sin I'll give you depends on your feelings on the hero and your playstyle but plenty of people play him effectively). In the case of those champs, he played them all in a much less effective way than SV or Snoopeh would have. I mean SV singlehandedly beat TSM with udyr in the Curse invitational. When is the last time TOO singlehandedly won a game of Solo q? And in this sense, the weakest of those junglers is actually maokai because he gives you no map control. Sure, he gives good lane control but he cant dual, isnt a great counterjungler, and has no dragon control at all. But the big thing is he just doesnt know what he is doing anymore. Its as simple as that. He doesnt know how to farm, so he ends up camping lanes forever, then buying shit items and dissapearing from the game. He cant farm, he cant carry, he cant counterjungle, he cant make calls, he just isnt doing ANYTHING. Contrast that with Snooph. Snoopeh plays the same characters as TOO- Maokai, Alistar- only he NEVER dissapears. + Show Spoiler + Haha, I think you're exaggerating a little just to prove a point. I do generally agree with you though. However, Snoopeh's team makes him look just a multitude of leagues higher than TOO's team. It is just a totally different game when all 3 of your lanes are incredibly strong. When you know your entire team is competent, most essentially your jungle, you are open to make plays that might seem more risky, but because you have a competent jungle you can force the lane into a risky situation for both sides, that you can capitalize on with jungle help. This is only the most simplified way of saying it though. How is he exaggerating? All TOO every does is pick ganky/supportty jungles, camp mid and get underfarmed while buying excessive amounts of doran items. TRM gets thrown under the bus because the other team usually laughs and just has their jungler exert pressure on top/bot. Chaos wins his lane becuase all he plays now is Cait/MF... The other thing is their whole team seems sooo behind in how the game works it just isn't even funny. They all seem to think that just winning their lanes should mean everyone they play surrenders at 20. Thing is, they always have early game centric team comps, they always have early game centric item builds, and they aren't good at making calls to push advantages they gain early on. All a team playing against TSM has to do is manage to survive till 30 minutes with minimal amounts of farm and they win every time. What I meant by exaggerating is that. TOO is that mediocre partially because his team is that mediocre. and Snoopeh is such a playmaking jungler because his team facilitates that playmaking. TOO does a lot of quality things. He times every buff, he reminds everyone in his team of dragon timers, reminds them to buy, reminds them to move for dragon or other objectives. He lets you know that he'll be in your lane in X seconds so you can try to setup a good wave position. Granted, he does have no direction in mind of the big picture when he plays, but I attribute that a lot to the fact that you really cannot learn all of that with a team like TSM, they simply don't have the building blocks to facilitate for that level of play yet. I might be being slightly harsh, but all the points I made, have some truth, in my opinion anyways. Woah woah woah, TOO times buffs? That changes everything... Not to be rude, but every jungler past like 1400 does all of those fairly consistently. Its hardly a good supporting arguement. no they don't i'll tell you what, you post 3 replays from 1400 elo level with junglers (that are not you nor your duo partner) timing their buffs and i'll buy you $10 RP To add to this, Saint doesn't even time dragon or baron. Instead he yells at Chauster when Chauster doesn't time them. xD And Saint never times anything in solo queue that I've seen.
Doesn't mean he doesn't time them, after a while you just get a feel for whenever it's up.
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EPT
