EPTOn March 08 2012 07:56 JackDino wrote:
Doesn't mean he doesn't time them, after a while you just get a feel for whenever it's up.
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On March 08 2012 07:27 Kyo Yuy wrote:
To add to this, Saint doesn't even time dragon or baron. Instead he yells at Chauster when Chauster doesn't time them. xD
And Saint never times anything in solo queue that I've seen.
On March 08 2012 06:46 deskscaress wrote:
no they don't
i'll tell you what, you post 3 replays from 1400 elo level with junglers (that are not you nor your duo partner) timing their buffs and i'll buy you $10 RP
On March 08 2012 06:09 iCanada wrote:
Woah woah woah, TOO times buffs? That changes everything...
Not to be rude, but every jungler past like 1400 does all of those fairly consistently. Its hardly a good supporting arguement.
On March 08 2012 05:55 nehcnhoj wrote:
What I meant by exaggerating is that. TOO is that mediocre partially because his team is that mediocre. and Snoopeh is such a playmaking jungler because his team facilitates that playmaking.
TOO does a lot of quality things. He times every buff, he reminds everyone in his team of dragon timers, reminds them to buy, reminds them to move for dragon or other objectives. He lets you know that he'll be in your lane in X seconds so you can try to setup a good wave position.
Granted, he does have no direction in mind of the big picture when he plays, but I attribute that a lot to the fact that you really cannot learn all of that with a team like TSM, they simply don't have the building blocks to facilitate for that level of play yet. I might be being slightly harsh, but all the points I made, have some truth, in my opinion anyways.
On March 08 2012 05:47 iCanada wrote:
How is he exaggerating? All TOO every does is pick ganky/supportty jungles, camp mid and get underfarmed while buying excessive amounts of doran items.
TRM gets thrown under the bus because the other team usually laughs and just has their jungler exert pressure on top/bot. Chaos wins his lane becuase all he plays now is Cait/MF...
The other thing is their whole team seems sooo behind in how the game works it just isn't even funny. They all seem to think that just winning their lanes should mean everyone they play surrenders at 20. Thing is, they always have early game centric team comps, they always have early game centric item builds, and they aren't good at making calls to push advantages they gain early on.
All a team playing against TSM has to do is manage to survive till 30 minutes with minimal amounts of farm and they win every time.
On March 08 2012 05:41 nehcnhoj wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Haha, I think you're exaggerating a little just to prove a point. I do generally agree with you though.
However, Snoopeh's team makes him look just a multitude of leagues higher than TOO's team. It is just a totally different game when all 3 of your lanes are incredibly strong. When you know your entire team is competent, most essentially your jungle, you are open to make plays that might seem more risky, but because you have a competent jungle you can force the lane into a risky situation for both sides, that you can capitalize on with jungle help. This is only the most simplified way of saying it though.
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 08 2012 05:31 Two_DoWn wrote:
In the case of those champs, he played them all in a much less effective way than SV or Snoopeh would have. I mean SV singlehandedly beat TSM with udyr in the Curse invitational. When is the last time TOO singlehandedly won a game of Solo q?
And in this sense, the weakest of those junglers is actually maokai because he gives you no map control. Sure, he gives good lane control but he cant dual, isnt a great counterjungler, and has no dragon control at all.
But the big thing is he just doesnt know what he is doing anymore. Its as simple as that. He doesnt know how to farm, so he ends up camping lanes forever, then buying shit items and dissapearing from the game. He cant farm, he cant carry, he cant counterjungle, he cant make calls, he just isnt doing ANYTHING.
Contrast that with Snooph. Snoopeh plays the same characters as TOO- Maokai, Alistar- only he NEVER dissapears.+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 08 2012 05:26 arnath wrote:
The champs he plays? He played Maokai, Lee Sin, Udyr, and Shen today. His playstyle aside, all of those are excellent junglers except possibly Shen (Lee Sin I'll give you depends on your feelings on the hero and your playstyle but plenty of people play him effectively).
On March 08 2012 04:58 Two_DoWn wrote:
Meh. It isnt just TRM, or his picking. TOO is an incredibly weak jungler both in terms of the champs he plays and the way he plays them. You can try to blame TRM for not picking stronger top lanes, but then again, you could also point at TOO for not playing stronger jungles either (or even playing them well when he DOES get them).
Meh. It isnt just TRM, or his picking. TOO is an incredibly weak jungler both in terms of the champs he plays and the way he plays them. You can try to blame TRM for not picking stronger top lanes, but then again, you could also point at TOO for not playing stronger jungles either (or even playing them well when he DOES get them).
The champs he plays? He played Maokai, Lee Sin, Udyr, and Shen today. His playstyle aside, all of those are excellent junglers except possibly Shen (Lee Sin I'll give you depends on your feelings on the hero and your playstyle but plenty of people play him effectively).
In the case of those champs, he played them all in a much less effective way than SV or Snoopeh would have. I mean SV singlehandedly beat TSM with udyr in the Curse invitational. When is the last time TOO singlehandedly won a game of Solo q?
And in this sense, the weakest of those junglers is actually maokai because he gives you no map control. Sure, he gives good lane control but he cant dual, isnt a great counterjungler, and has no dragon control at all.
But the big thing is he just doesnt know what he is doing anymore. Its as simple as that. He doesnt know how to farm, so he ends up camping lanes forever, then buying shit items and dissapearing from the game. He cant farm, he cant carry, he cant counterjungle, he cant make calls, he just isnt doing ANYTHING.
Contrast that with Snooph. Snoopeh plays the same characters as TOO- Maokai, Alistar- only he NEVER dissapears.+ Show Spoiler +
Haha, I think you're exaggerating a little just to prove a point. I do generally agree with you though.
However, Snoopeh's team makes him look just a multitude of leagues higher than TOO's team. It is just a totally different game when all 3 of your lanes are incredibly strong. When you know your entire team is competent, most essentially your jungle, you are open to make plays that might seem more risky, but because you have a competent jungle you can force the lane into a risky situation for both sides, that you can capitalize on with jungle help. This is only the most simplified way of saying it though.
How is he exaggerating? All TOO every does is pick ganky/supportty jungles, camp mid and get underfarmed while buying excessive amounts of doran items.
TRM gets thrown under the bus because the other team usually laughs and just has their jungler exert pressure on top/bot. Chaos wins his lane becuase all he plays now is Cait/MF...
The other thing is their whole team seems sooo behind in how the game works it just isn't even funny. They all seem to think that just winning their lanes should mean everyone they play surrenders at 20. Thing is, they always have early game centric team comps, they always have early game centric item builds, and they aren't good at making calls to push advantages they gain early on.
All a team playing against TSM has to do is manage to survive till 30 minutes with minimal amounts of farm and they win every time.
What I meant by exaggerating is that. TOO is that mediocre partially because his team is that mediocre. and Snoopeh is such a playmaking jungler because his team facilitates that playmaking.
TOO does a lot of quality things. He times every buff, he reminds everyone in his team of dragon timers, reminds them to buy, reminds them to move for dragon or other objectives. He lets you know that he'll be in your lane in X seconds so you can try to setup a good wave position.
Granted, he does have no direction in mind of the big picture when he plays, but I attribute that a lot to the fact that you really cannot learn all of that with a team like TSM, they simply don't have the building blocks to facilitate for that level of play yet. I might be being slightly harsh, but all the points I made, have some truth, in my opinion anyways.
Woah woah woah, TOO times buffs? That changes everything...
Not to be rude, but every jungler past like 1400 does all of those fairly consistently. Its hardly a good supporting arguement.
no they don't
i'll tell you what, you post 3 replays from 1400 elo level with junglers (that are not you nor your duo partner) timing their buffs and i'll buy you $10 RP
To add to this, Saint doesn't even time dragon or baron. Instead he yells at Chauster when Chauster doesn't time them. xD
And Saint never times anything in solo queue that I've seen.
Doesn't mean he doesn't time them, after a while you just get a feel for whenever it's up.
There is a difference between +-10 seconds and being there just as it spawns. Top EU teams are very strikt about this and it can win you games.
On March 08 2012 05:56 Zdrastochye wrote:
He just doesn't gank on certain junglers. That Shen of his, his only kill was the ult to TRM when he was dove. Zero ganks besides that, whereas Noct had like 4.
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On March 08 2012 05:06 Mogwai wrote:
TOO has been pretty far behind the curve ever since the jungle changes it seems. IMO at least.
TRM's weak too, but I agree with T_D here, TOO deserves a lot of the blame that all seems to be getting dumped on TRM.
TOO has been pretty far behind the curve ever since the jungle changes it seems. IMO at least.
TRM's weak too, but I agree with T_D here, TOO deserves a lot of the blame that all seems to be getting dumped on TRM.
He just doesn't gank on certain junglers. That Shen of his, his only kill was the ult to TRM when he was dove. Zero ganks besides that, whereas Noct had like 4.
Tbh Shen is not a very strong jungler and its better to farm the jungle. You can waste time and gank Udyr which will run away or try to hit them with a midgame team fight where Shen excels. Irelia can not kill Udyr before level 7 anyway and that is without getting killed.
