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What rank is this?
Oh I see, mid silver. Support Sion sounds really ehhhhhhh to me.
Anyway, support Urgot theorycraft.
Urgot's entire kit basically has support centric stuff on it.
He has:
Good lane bullying harass combo with Q+E.
Passive is basically a Sona W power chord. In teamfights he just uses all his skills and then focuses on getting one auto/Q on each enemy damage dealer.
On demand slows with shield.
Good engage with ult. People don't like engaging with Urgot ult when he's played as a carry because they think of it as trading carries. However, with support Urgot we can build semi tanky, and even if it's a 1 for 1 trade we're trading a high value target for our support.
Urgots ult also allows you to set up a ridiculously favorable fight at level 6. If you have a jungler waiting offscreen Urgot ult can guarantee minimum one kill at 6.
The core build would be Talisman of Ascension, Brutalizer and Glacial Shroud, with Sightstone and Merc Treads.
Talisman gives him his gold item, and opening Coin gives him the mana regen he needs to sustain his high mana harassment in lane. All together these items give him 40% CDR, all the regen needed, some damage and reasonable tankiness coupled with his ult, shield and merc treads. The active on Talisman is always great, but it's especially good for Urgot because it lets him run in to get a favorable ult target or catch somebody who is running away with his ult.
End game build would be Talisman, Black Cleaver, Iceborne Gauntlet, Ruby Sightstone, Merc Treads, and 6th item could be variable depending on team needs, but probably added tankiness like Randuins or Banshees.
BC coupled with his E gives him an AoE 40% armor shred, which with the right team is a huge damage increase. Pair this with a Riven or a Yasuo or something like that and you're increasing their damage by a tremendous amount. Iceborne increases his damage with Sheen procs, gives him tanky stats and CDR, and also increases his peel by giving him more slows.
I think this has the potential to be strong but it needs the right team to work correctly. You want:
A - A fellow duo laner with some kind of slow to make it easy to land acid charges. Ashe, Jinx, Varus etc would all probably work well, but a Lucian probably would not.
B - A team that really likes his armor shred or can really easily assassinate his ult target. Riven/Zed/Yasuo/Khazix/Yi etc would all be good with him.
I'm not 100% positive on masteries for him but I might do this: http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/mastery-tree-planner#&tree1=0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree2=2-0-2-0-1-3-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree3=0-3-3-0-2-1-1-3-0-0-1-1-1-0-0-0-0-0&v=2
I really think this will be best with the rune changes, because mana regen runes will be much easier to get then presumably, and if Urgot really wants to be scary in lane he needs a LOT of mana regen. The rune page I might use for him now would be AD / Armor / MR, and mana regen quints.
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I'd run Sion in a kill lane with someone. Double Targon double stun double kill.
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On December 27 2013 07:54 Ketara wrote:
I think this has the potential to be strong but it needs the right team to work correctly. You want:
A - A fellow duo laner with some kind of slow to make it easy to land acid charges. Ashe, Jinx, Varus etc would all probably work well, but a Lucian probably would not.
B - A team that really likes his armor shred or can really easily assassinate his ult target. Riven/Zed/Yasuo/Khazix/Yi etc would all be good with him.
I think that Varus goes very well with this. When Urgot ults, the enemy is basically going to collapse on him, making the team a prime target for Varus' ult. People are drawn to what they think are easy to kill targets and this support Urgot is a lot more durable then he lets on. Ashe is a good second due to her arrow. In effect the ults from Ashe/Varus do the same thing, but I feel that Varus has the better chance of catching more of the opponents in his ult than Ashe.
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A slight side discussion I want to talk about is the revival of AP top laners in the new tanky/bruiser top lane meta. The current stipulation/rules for having such a champ viable is this:
1. Able to deal with a Shyvana, Munro, Elise or Olaf getting a Negatron/Cowl/SV within the first back or two.
2. Able to fulfill a relevant role in a team fight composition (tank, engage/disengage, bruiser, etc.)
3. Be able to not build optimally and still be relevant.
Of the champs that fulfill those 3 rules, I think the only ones that can do it are Diana, Elise, Zac, Kayle, and Brand.
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After watching Blue try it...
Has anybody tried making Double Jungle work?
I was thinking you have two junglers:
-one that can live in the enemy jungle and is a giant dick in both 1v1 and early game ganks while being hard to kill (Shaco?)
-another jungler that more or less stays on your side, farms it up, and supports/pressures whatever lane is losing
You pick Double Jungle if the enemy jungler is bad vs counterjungling which would allow your offensive jungler to gain an advantage.
If the enemy jungler is weak early-game:
-you can get more gold for your side and starve the enemy jungler while giving your laners all solo lane XP. A starved enemy jungler makes your lanes safer
-you might get the enemy laners to do stuff they don't want to do, like leave lane to help their jungler, which makes your lanes safer
-you can make a standard 2v2 lane if you really want to and pull back your enemy side jungler if things really aren't going to plan
-if you plan for having a 1v2 lane and build a teamcomp around it, it won't be so bad
Thoughts?
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A couple weeks ago I have played a normal game with 2 junglers in soloQ, some thoughts:
- It is an high risk strategy but not with a high reward.
- Bot line can have a hard time if the enemy team becomes too aggresive and have decent siege/dive or hard CC.
- It can be dangerous: when bot line is pushed to your tower, the jungler in the enemy side can be hunted by bot line.
- If both junglers arent coordinated It bot ganks can be a huge fail. For example if a jungler does a bad gank in bot, it wont be a 2v2, it will be 2v1 twice.
Im not a high ranked player it is just my humble opinion, hopefully someone finds out how to do right.
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I don't think there is much use in having two junglers, personally. One of the junglers is going to have to pay a lot of attention to the 1v2 lane and counterjungling is not always easy.
I do think there is some merit to the idea of going 2v1 mid with a roaming support. I liked our 2v1 Caitlyn Nunu mid, that seemed like it had some potential. It might be neat to go a normal comp with Cait/Nunu mid and Nunu expected to roam, even if the extent of his roaming is to counterjungle the enemy wraiths with Consume.
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I don't like duo jungle either. I think the reverse would be much stronger honestly-- you can take buffs and some camps early, then 2v1 top which forces the enemy jungler to react. Either he comes top to help and is behind because of the way xp is allocated in a lane with multiple allied champs, or he farms and tries to make a play elsewhere and lets his toplane get trampled.
I think that since the game hinges so much on having a strong toplaner right now, it would be pretty worthwhile to sacrifice some jungling power for gimping your enemy top.
That aside, I think there's some real potential with Soraka right now as a non-bot lane champ.
If we put her mid in a 2v1, she can:
1. Keep her lane buddy topped off on mana, potentially donating blue to a jungler (or solo lane) champ who needs it
2. Hold the lane while her partner roams (Q waveclear, E silence to prevent getting combo'd, W sustain)
3. Easy assists with global heal
4. Shorter lane makes ganking her much harder
Implications for top are similar.
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So, here's some math we can put into a TROLLS test sometime:
The common opener we're seeing from ADC these days is Dorans Blade +1 potion. At least that's what I'm seeing on everybody all the time.
Dorans Blade gives 80 HP, 8 AD, and 3 HP gained per autoattack.
In S3 we pretty much proved that his was by far the best opening for ADC, after we proved that Dorans Blade outsustained the extra potion from Longsword. But Longsword has been buffed, and Dorans Blade has been nerfed, so is this still true?
Lets examine some other openers.
Longsword +3
+ Show Spoiler +In S3 Dorans gave 80 HP and 5 HP regen per auto, while Longsword gave 300 regen from potions. This meant Dorans Blade outsustained Longsword at 44 autoattacks, and we figured you did 44 autos before going back to base. This, plus Dorans Blade being better for early all ins, made it an obvious buy.
In S4, Dorans only gives 3 HP regen per auto. Since you can get a potion with both now Dorans Blade is now even better for early all ins, but at 3 HP regen per auto, it now takes 73.3 autos for it to outsustain Longsword +3, nearly twice as much. It also only gives 8 AD to Longswords 10.
I'm not awesome enough to know how much the difference between 44 to 73 autos matters, but it is a big change. If your intent in lane is to go BT or Cutlass first and you aren't expecting a big level 2 all in, you might think about going Longsword over Dorans Blade due to cost efficiency reasons.
Relic Shield +3
+ Show Spoiler +Relic Shield lets you open Relic + 3 potions. It has 6 HP regen, 50 HP, and the passive.
The main thing to look at is the regen. 6 HP/5 means that in order for Dorans Blade to match Relic Shield in regen, you need to be doing 24 autoattacks per minute. Or on average you need to autoattack every minion that spawns about two times.
Realistically, this does not happen. So, by some margin, Relic Shield gives more regen than Dorans Blade does, even without counting the extra 2 potions you get opening Relic Shield.
The extra potions and healing from the passive going to your support means that Relic Shield is a more defensive option than Dorans Blade is. If you are not expecting to get kills in lane and are playing more of a late game setup, Relic Shield will keep you in the lane longer even if the lack of 8 AD means you are losing trades more than you would otherwise.
Finally, Relic Shield on an ADC still gives gold to their support. The item costs 365 gold and sells for 146, a difference of 219 gold. At the start of the game, a melee minion gives 19 gold. So assuming a charge is used on a melee minion every 60 seconds, Relic Shield gives about 4 GP10, +24 gold at the start since you begin with 2 charges.
There are some discrepencies there. You aren't going to use a charge immediately when it comes up every time, but on the other hand giving gold to your support early helps them get their rank 2 gold item faster which increases their own gold generation, and if used correctly you're killing cannon minions with it as well. Realistically you're actually getting more than 4 GP10 out of the item, but probably less than 5.
Basically, this means in order for Relic Shield to turn a profit, your ADC only has to carry it for about 8 minutes. That is easily doable. I've tested about a dozen games of Relic Shield ADC since the nerf, and have found that I typically give my support about 500 gold before selling the thing.
Dorans Shield
+ Show Spoiler +But Ketara you say, going Relic Shield is silly. I'm an ADC, I want to build selfish items!
Okay, whatevs. However, if you want a more defensive option, you might look at a Dorans Shield instead of that Dorans Blade.
Dorans Shield blocks 8 damage per auto, while Dorans Blade gives 8 AD. These things are not exactly the same, but we can cheat and say they're roughly similar. If you're an ADC whose skills don't have AD ratios, they really are pretty goddamn similar. Shield is just defensive, while Blade is offensive.
However, Dorans Shield gives 20 more HP, and 10 HP/5. If we surmised that 6 HP/5 from Relic Shield was some amount more than the HP per auto sustain was on Dorans Blade, then Dorans Shield must be outsustaining Dorans Blade by quite a ways. A better comparison might be Dorans Shield vs. Relic Shield. Relic Shield gives 2 extra potions, and Dorans Shield gives an extra 4 HP/5 and 50 more HP. This means that Dorans Shield outsustains Relic Shield after about 5 minutes of laning, which is similar to how long it took Dorans Blade to outsustain Longsword in S3.
So, IN CONCLUSION:
I'm not saying that Dorans Blade is a bad opener, but it is certainly not as obvious a choice as it was in season 3. There are other options.
Especially if you are an ADC who doesn't have big AD ratios, likes playing passive in the early game and focuses on winning later in the game, a Relic Shield or Dorans Shield opening may be superior (Tristana, Kogmaw and Vayne are examples). Assuming that 8 less AD doesn't mean you miss all your last hits  .
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I will be around today if anybody wants to test stuff at 4 PM.
Monte back next week.
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In S3, you tested the strategy of giving early red/blue to adc/mid laner, I was wondering with the possibility of giving the blue buff to the support.
In S4 the AP support is very common, giving the second blue buff to that kind of support, with more CDR and less mana problems in the early game, it can be really interesting, and it will give to bot lane an advantage.
Only in compositions with a manales mid laner and a jungler that can survive without the blue buff.
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On January 09 2014 04:40 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 01:42 drkcid wrote:
In S3, you tested the strategy of giving early red/blue to adc/mid laner, I was wondering with the possibility of giving the blue buff to the support.
In S4 the AP support is very common, giving the second blue buff to that kind of support, with more CDR and less mana problems in the early game, it can be really interesting, and it will give to bot lane an advantage.
Only in compositions with a manales mid laner and a jungler that can survive without the blue buff. something like mid riven/zed/akali with jungle rengar/mundo/shyv I guess. I once faced a support karma that accidentally took blue from his jungler and it was hell at bot. lucian/karma with blue has bullshit zoning/poke/disengage.
Wasn't me, but I've done the same thing as Karma supp and it was AMAZING. Her issues stem from mana problems, and being able to spam q poke is incredible.
Something a friend and I have been testing since seeing Kayklebot do it is Kayle/Annie (or following Annie ban another aggressive AP) duo bot. Incredibly aggressive duo that dominates the early game but falls off late (need to win with the incredible dmg burst Kayle gets after grabbing nashor's/lich bane combo)
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On January 09 2014 04:40 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 01:42 drkcid wrote:
In S3, you tested the strategy of giving early red/blue to adc/mid laner, I was wondering with the possibility of giving the blue buff to the support.
In S4 the AP support is very common, giving the second blue buff to that kind of support, with more CDR and less mana problems in the early game, it can be really interesting, and it will give to bot lane an advantage.
Only in compositions with a manales mid laner and a jungler that can survive without the blue buff. something like mid riven/zed/akali with jungle rengar/mundo/shyv I guess. I once faced a support karma that accidentally took blue from his jungler and it was hell at bot. lucian/karma with blue has bullshit zoning/poke/disengage.
Exactly, if you have a team composition that allows you the luxury of giving the blue buff to the sup, you can win bot lane early and have the possibility of taking dragons easily.
But It could be dangerous, the sup is usually weak and vulnerable to ganks, so if the enemy team makes a successfuly gank in the bot line, the blue buf will give the advantage to the enemy team.
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I do want to see what it would be like to have a Supportish jungle and an AP carry support.
What I mean is the support player gets Talisman or whatever and then goes pure selfish items after that, and the jungler gets golem stone or whatever but builds Sightstone and Mikhaels etc. Then in mid/late game the burden of warding moves to the jungler and the support starts taking farm.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On December 15 2013 10:23 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Come to think of it I like the idea of Cho support. The Relic Shield line of items is great on him, he has great CC/utility, his ult secures neutral monsters, and if he's just supporting he shouldn't lose his stacks that often. You'd probably have to pick him into a melee enemy support though, and his mana issues might be crippling if you miss Rupture too many times.
I've been trying this in normals. It's ultra high variance -- like a tightrope.
If you land Rupture on a gank, it's an easy double kill and snowball. Once ahead, if you consistently live through teamfights your assist streak and full ult stacks make you an unkillable monster.
If you miss Ruptures and/or are up against strong poke, enjoy crippling mana problems and being astonishingly squishy because you can't fully make use of your passive.
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I would like to lend my support for support sion If he gets ahead early he can destroy cause his early damage is bonkers. I have run it my self back in season 3. In like mid range plat.
Also I have been playing some AP trist recently. I have found that you can also use her bot. Great damage early on and she continues to be a scary assassin late game. With ALL ad comps cropping up once in a while you can just go AP trist and prodvide some needed magic damage to your team. Fun stuff :3
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EPT
