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T.R.O.L.L.S. is a loose organization of players interested in putting theory into practice in a light-hearted, low pressure environment. The only requirements are civility and interest. You do not have to be a skillful player or a master theorycrafter to participate.
Official Testing Time: From 00:00 GMT (+00:00) on Tuesdays, until we run out of theories/people/fun.
Official Testing Channel: TROLLS
Official Testing Coordinator: Montegomery
Official Testing Assistant: Ketara
Be advised: We at T.R.O.L.L.S. are willing to meet anyone with an interesting idea halfway. That is to say, if you're willing to put thought and work into an idea we will help you. We are not, however, a dustbin for whatever random idea tickled your fancy for the three seconds it took you to post.
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Archived Theories (Season 4):
None... yet.
T.R.O.L.L.S. Season 3 Research Archive
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The first official T.R.O.L.L.S. test will be tomorrow. There is currently no agenda for this test. If you have something you wish to test, post here and we can discuss it.
T.R.O.L.L.S. is also looking for an additional testing assistant on the off chance Monte runs Ketara over with a bus, or vice versa.
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Theory: Support Maokai
Rationale With the season 4 jungle changes, Maokai is even weaker in the jungle than he was in season 3. With the improvements of support gold gain, I believe Maokai could be played as a support. He has the jump/root/CC combo similar to leona, as well as a skill that gives him temporary wards (and they do damage too!), and has damage reduction with his ult for 2v2/2v3 duels after level 6.
The Kicker: With targons or ancient coin, he can get a little bit of gold income, and can proc his passive on minions at the same time he uses the targon charges to heal the ADC.
Possible Drawback: Saplings are mana whores, an early chalice may be necessary to keep up the harass in lane.
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Theory: GP support focused around Face of the Mountain, Tiamat, and Avarice Blade.
Rational: Acts like nunu support with self heal + carry steroid. Comes with bonus of removing CC on him. Parrrley adds decent harass like snowball. Ult does it's usual thing. Moves him away from a solo lane with poor matchups and out of the jungle away from invade duels.
The Kicker: His liking of avarice blade makes him one of the few champions in the game that can do double gold items. Parrley, due to his range being melee, should trigger FotM execute. Tiamat's unique interaction with FotM where it can AOE off of 1 charge(unless that was hotfixed.) Avarice blade might have to be dropped due to income restraints between the previously mentioned items + sightstone.
Theory: Splitpush Support Zyra.
Rational: Already works amazingly as a support.
The Kicker: S4 changes to Banner of Command makes it a high CDR/AP item with a decent buildup ontop of minion passive to pump cannons and buff her plants. Innate CC can make for easy getaways. Sightstone can be used to toss about ward coverage in enemy jungle, combined with her innate CC and proper map awareness making for well planned escapes.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Me and a buddy have been running GP bot lane with aggressive, all-inny laners that are effective with around a jungler's level of farm. We did it with the same thought of hiding GP away from his poor matchups in top lane, and playing him like a hard lategame carry, with shiv/triforce into items like visage/randuins/sunfire or IE. I didn't think to try BotRK. If GP can get the offensive items in a decent amount of time he's a really good mid and lategame teamfighter, he doesn't need a ton of offensive items in lategame to do a lot of damage.
we figured with proper use of double relic shields the 'support' could get a pretty good amount of gold, a little less than the jungler in every game we played. we tried maokai and jarvan as the supports. We seemed to be able to all-in a bunch of ad/support combos by stacking ad/ap in runes and masteries and using GP's cheesy lvl 1 and 2 damage with ignite.
if anyone can think of ways to make this better please lemme know
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On December 03 2013 14:08 Gahlo wrote:
Theory: GP support focused around Face of the Mountain, Tiamat, and Avarice Blade.
Rational: Acts like nunu support with self heal + carry steroid. Comes with bonus of removing CC on him. Parrrley adds decent harass like snowball. Ult does it's usual thing. Moves him away from a solo lane with poor matchups and out of the jungle away from invade duels.
The Kicker: His liking of avarice blade makes him one of the few champions in the game that can do double gold items. Parrley, due to his range being melee, should trigger FotM execute. Tiamat's unique interaction with FotM where it can AOE off of 1 charge(unless that was hotfixed.) Avarice blade might have to be dropped due to income restraints between the previously mentioned items + sightstone.
Theory: Splitpush Support Zyra.
Rational: Already works amazingly as a support.
The Kicker: S4 changes to Banner of Command makes it a high CDR/AP item with a decent buildup ontop of minion passive to pump cannons and buff her plants. Innate CC can make for easy getaways. Sightstone can be used to toss about ward coverage in enemy jungle, combined with her innate CC and proper map awareness making for well planned escapes.
Hotfixed FYI. Tried a support GP today in a normal with a friend, seems to have some potential anyway, have fun!
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There are a few champions like GP who could benefit from doing a duo relic shield lane with a strong laner...
Warwick?
Poppy?
Darius?
Olaf?
Other melees who are underplayed at the moment?
The question is if the second laner should be the ADC or if it is beneficial to send him to another position.
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On December 03 2013 21:08 Wetty wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 14:08 Gahlo wrote:
Theory: GP support focused around Face of the Mountain, Tiamat, and Avarice Blade.
Rational: Acts like nunu support with self heal + carry steroid. Comes with bonus of removing CC on him. Parrrley adds decent harass like snowball. Ult does it's usual thing. Moves him away from a solo lane with poor matchups and out of the jungle away from invade duels.
The Kicker: His liking of avarice blade makes him one of the few champions in the game that can do double gold items. Parrley, due to his range being melee, should trigger FotM execute. Tiamat's unique interaction with FotM where it can AOE off of 1 charge(unless that was hotfixed.) Avarice blade might have to be dropped due to income restraints between the previously mentioned items + sightstone.
Theory: Splitpush Support Zyra.
Rational: Already works amazingly as a support.
The Kicker: S4 changes to Banner of Command makes it a high CDR/AP item with a decent buildup ontop of minion passive to pump cannons and buff her plants. Innate CC can make for easy getaways. Sightstone can be used to toss about ward coverage in enemy jungle, combined with her innate CC and proper map awareness making for well planned escapes. Hotfixed FYI. Tried a support GP today in a normal with a friend, seems to have some potential anyway, have fun!
Aw.
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Theory: Taric-Nasus duo top lane with double Targon first item
Rationale Relic shield was nerfed but Targon (so far) has not been touched in a duo-melee setting. Getting it early provides great gold generation for both Nasus and Taric, so that even with Nasus being given farm priority, Taric gets surprising amount of gold. Gives Nasus safer early game and greater gold generation to reach lategame quicker.
The Kicker: With new Taric's burst potential + double armor shred + wither, actually becomes a pretty deadly kill lane people might not expect. Can run in a 2-1-2 setting or with a safe ADC like Caitlyn solo-lane.
Possible Drawback: Could be vulnerable to laneswaps, not sure how well it would do against an ADC/support pair in lane.
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On December 04 2013 02:02 BrownBear wrote:
Theory: Taric-Nasus duo top lane with double Targon first item
Rationale Relic shield was nerfed but Targon (so far) has not been touched in a duo-melee setting. Getting it early provides great gold generation for both Nasus and Taric, so that even with Nasus being given farm priority, Taric gets surprising amount of gold. Gives Nasus safer early game and greater gold generation to reach lategame quicker.
The Kicker: With new Taric's burst potential + double armor shred + wither, actually becomes a pretty deadly kill lane people might not expect. Can run in a 2-1-2 setting or with a safe ADC like Caitlyn solo-lane.
Possible Drawback: Could be vulnerable to laneswaps, not sure how well it would do against an ADC/support pair in lane.
Wither + stun and the burst is pretty good. Taric lands a stun, Nasus withers and you both walk up and just fart on the AD's face. Level 2 "all-in" with Taric EW and Nasus QW sounds scary, with another chance at 3 when Nasus gets E.
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I'll be around, although I have finals next week so if there's enough participants without me I'll probably sneak out.
I think since everything is still crazy that testing ideas should be focused on more general concepts rather than specific champions in specific spots, although I know everybody has fun things they want to try. I certainly have fun things I want to try.
But it'd be neat to see discussions of like, is 2-1-2 still viable, is a roaming support viable, lists of unconventional support/jungle picks that might work now, etc.
I've held off on doing much math for my personal testing of champs that I love to do because I know the rune changes are going to come out soon(tm), and they are going to be a big deal. Champions that like Mana Regen or CDR or GP10 runes are going to REALLY like the rune changes, as will champions with fairly poor AD/AP scaling.
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We'll probably start off with a fair amount of discussion since the season is new and such. I also need to cook dinner for the fiance.
But TROLLS starts in less than 10 minutes. Come on in the internet's fine!
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Right now we're just discussing things rather than playing as we work out ideas.
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First Hot Theory:
2-1-2 with two AD Carry Lanes. Push like crazy and force the enemy jungler to leave the jungle or lose turrets.
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So this wasn't a particularly exciting night, but I'm going to give everyone some homework based on our discussion. You don't have to answer all the questions, just pick one and go for it.
Homework Question #1: With increased support gold income, what new supports may be viable?
Homework Question #2: With the changes to the jungle, what new junglers may be viable?
Homework Question #3: What duo top lanes would be best in a 2-1-2?
Homework Question #4: Who would you use in a hard push composition?
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As I imagine you've already tested this and would know:
How well does Ashe focusing on W with Liandry's and Spirit of the Lizard Elder work?
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Maybe something like:
First duo - Jinx Zyra
Second duo - Caitlyn Fiddle
Mid - Heimerdinger
Heimer takes smite and does blue buff level 1 with turret help. Goes to lane and starts spamming spells and shoving. You don't take red buff but you put a ward on it so if the enemy jungler invades you can collapse on him. Heimer also rushes Banner of Command for even more push potential, and to assist Zyra damage.
Each of the duo lanes has a lot of CC, free vision, and above average AA range champions. The ADCs take Relic Shields and the supports take Ancient Coin / Spellthiefs Edge and they shove like crazy. Focus is on taking towers down.
Once you're grouped basically what you have is a comp that doesn't engage but is crazy difficult to engage on. Your champs are all squishy but the enemy team is diving into Cait traps, Heimer turrets and Zyra plants, and has to contend with Zyra ult, Zyra/Jinx roots, Heimer stun, Fiddle fear/silence, etc. You push down outer towers early then use that gold advantage to group and rush down inhibitors. Ignore dragon/baron, take inhibitors, win game.
Alternatively put smite on Fiddle and have him whack blue with it for Heimer before walking to lane, so that in loading screen it looks like:
Solo lanes - Heimer Caitlyn
Duo lane - Jinx Zyra
Jungle - Fiddlesticks
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Theory: Lategame AP Bruiser Support Thresh
Rationale: With increased gold in the duo lane, if him and the ADC go double Relic start into Targon first item on Thresh, the added gold allows him to buy things he wouldn't normally be able to go. My thought of item build is Relic > T1 Shoes + Targon > T2 Shoes + Sightstone > Locket > Abyssal.
The Kicker: He has very reasonable AP scaling with a fair bit of front-loaded damage in all his abilities, and only 1 decent AP item is needed to make the threat of a Thresh hook + dive being able to decimate an enemy front line or back line.
Possible Drawback: Requires a lot of team coordination and the mindset of playing to the lategame (8k - 10k gold per champ), and is reliant on hitting your hooks to be at it's maximum effectiveness.
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crap... I didn't saw the date change  will be there next week
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
2-1-2 theorycrafting
Play with Blitzcrank Nunu as supports. Send Blitz mid and Nunu to bot (if blue) or top (if purple). Have Smite on Blitzcrank.
The goal is to use Blitz's hook/smite and Nunu's Consume to be able to maintain buff control. Smite is a natural fit on Blitzcrank because it allows otherwise impossible hooks. Pair Blitz with an ADC that needs blue (Caitlyn, Ezreal) and Nunu with an ADC that benefits from Blood Boil (Vayne). Have a tanky, disruptive solo laner (Cho'Gath) to make up for the double ADC comp. At level one, the buff/level/numbers advantage should allow both ADC's to dominate their lane and take early towers.
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Idea: Play Poppy. Targons. Get big fast, kill all the things.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
2-1-2 theorycraft - double AD
There should be two distinct pairs of AD/support combos. One AD should be focused on teamfighting, and would be our hard carry if we can't end the game through aggressive pushing. The other AD should be a super efficient and fast pusher to put pressure on the map and force decisions from the enemy team. Here's what I'm thinking:
First pair (Pusher): Caitlyn/Fiddles.
These champions can pretty much shove the lane all day without too much personal risk. Fiddles' fear and Cait's E are excellent anti-gank tools. I'd put this pair in the bottom lane, their job is to take the outer tower as fast as possible and attract the enemy jungler. Cait/fiddles is probably ideal for this role.
Second pair (Skirmisher): Vayne/Annie.
This pair has legitimate kill potential, especially vs a solo laner. I would put this pair in top lane. Their goal would be to put immense pressure on the enemy solo laner to attract the jungler, as well as having kill potential to snowball. There are likely other combos that would work in this role.
Mid: This needs to be a champion that A) provides some utility/disruption/space control, and B) can easy clear Wraith camp and distribute buffs with Smite. Karthus, Heimer, Galio, Orianna, maybe Diana would work as mages. I think a bruiser here might be good as well, someone like Riven, Pantheon, Jax - someone mobile who will be a bigger threat in a teamfight and will force the enemy team into a decision they don't want to make - IE, which target will they focus on?
I think there's some solid strategic merit to this. I could see a potentially difficult midgame when the enemy team is beginning to tank up, and our ADs aren't at their 3-4 item timings yet. This would be the first weakness of this strategy that we'd have to work around. I think that through aggressively pushing and managing the lanes, the double AD team could be reasonably far ahead simply because they will DOMINATE the offlane, and no AD/support combo can stop cait/fiddles from pushing as they please. The enemy jungler is the wildcard here. Ideally he'd be too busy babysitting lanes to take his own jungle reliably. That's part of the strength of pushing so aggressively - we're aiming to force a reaction that the enemy jungler doesn't want to make.
However, managing our own jungle is pretty crucial. I don't think it's ideal to just let our own jungle go un-farmed, and there's always the chance that the enemy jungler will just let their solo laner hang, and farm both jungles for a while. This could be a problem if the bottom lane is against a pair that can match our pushing power. We may end up in a stall where we can't actually get bottom tower, in which case the enemy jungler has much more freedom in his decision making, and could become a problem.
So how do we deal with that? The first thing that comes to mind is that we need to have our own jungle properly warded. We need to KNOW when the enemy jungler is in our jungle, and we'd need to collapse on him immediately. We'd have a much stronger 2v2/3v3 teamfight in the first 10-15 minutes with a double AD 2-1-2, and we'd have to take advantage of that. The second thing we'd need to do is to properly time and distribute our buff camps. This is gonna take some coordination, but we can't afford to let the enemy team secure our buffs. If they were able to successfully time and steal our buff camps, that's gonna go a long way towards mitigating any advantage we've built through pushing.
Okay, let's say everything is okey-dokey. It's an ideal scenario: Bot lane outer tower is down, Cait/Fiddles have out-cs'd their opponents. Top lane outer tower is down, Vayne/Annie have secured a kill or two on the solo laner and the enemy jungler is camping/babysitting. Our mid is holding his own without any offensive summoners, and we've successfully held on to our buff camps for the duration of the game.
We should have:
A slight gold advantage
A massive vision advantage
A Vayne that's well on her way to hella fed status.
These are our team's strengths:
-Can push relentlessly, Cait/Fiddles can take positioning risks that other pairs couldn't because of Cait's escape and the Fiddles fear. They can escape from duo lane + jungler with appropriate ward coverage.
- We should have a superior 2v2/3v3 skirmish when our Vayne is present with our midlaner and a support. I think we'd need to build the team around this synergy for mid to lategame.
- Double AD comp means that you can aggressively push both sidelanes, forcing a decision from the enemy team. They have to split to deal with us. Depending on how they choose to do so, this opens up opportunities for playmaking from our team, IE, Cait/Fiddles can run away and waste their time if they overcommit to stopping cait's push, Vayne/Annie +1 will have kill threat if they don't send enough people, or the right people to stop them.
These are our team's weaknesses:
- Our 5v5 is lackluster until both ADs are at maximum against certain team comps
- Requirement to ban Nasus, possibly Malphite.
- We are vulnerable to being dunked under towers vs certain team comps.
- We're pretty squishy overall
- We need to be more coordinated than the enemy team running a 1-1-2+J.
Things I want to get discussion on:
- Do we need one of the ADs to be a lategame hypercarry, such as Vayne, Trist, or Ashe?
- Could we eke out enough of an advantage through having two aggressive pusher AD lanes instead of having a hypercarry with a kill support?
- What champions would we absolutely HAVE TO draft or ban?
- Who's a good candidate for the mid position?
- Other AD/Support combos that could be effective?
And most importantly:
Is having two six-item AD carries a strong enough end-game to justify this setup? Can we end games effectively through their sustained damage?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
The flipside of this is we should consider some team comps that don't have an AD carry at all, and instead feature strong melee splitpushers and a super tanky teamcomp with one or two high-damage, heavy scaling mages, so we can dive, and clean up towers afterwards. The complete opposite of a siege comp.
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On December 05 2013 04:37 ticklishmusic wrote:
Idea: Play Poppy. Targons. Get big fast, kill all the things.
I like - A lot
+ Show Spoiler +I have always loved Poppy, and any idea that can give her a reliable role in a team without having to deal with counterpicks is something I have been looking for in a long time
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I think the weakness of having two ADCs is insta-gib potential - any time you can be instagibbed but aren't able to do so when engaged upon, you put youtself in an uncertain spot.
All the opposition needs is a brolaf and something like Lux, and all the CC from your supports will still do jack shit vs them (lux for the range, olaf for the cc immunity).
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I wonder how good Zilean support would be with double ADC. Is Zilean good at harassing somebody under their tower?
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Talked to a guy I know (who was Diamond in Korea, like what?) about Poppy. I suggested doing a no jungle with a Poppy duo lane that would force the enemy jungle to assist the solo lane vs the Poppy. He said he didn't know if it would work, but thinks Poppy support might be viable.
IDK I think Poppy could see some play now.
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On December 06 2013 05:39 Ketara wrote:
I wonder how good Zilean support would be with double ADC. Is Zilean good at harassing somebody under their tower?
Quite good; the base range on his bomb is pretty good, plus he can do sneaky things like bomb creeps on both sides that are about to die near the enemy.
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How about trying that Cass/Twitch kill lane again? Now that supports get actual gold, it may be worth giving it another shot?
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I think the problem with the Cass/Twitch kill lane wasn't gold, but more that there were certain opposing lanes they were just incapable of bullying (Cait/Sona being a big example)
Worth trying though, definitely.
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On December 06 2013 11:02 entropius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 05:39 Ketara wrote:
I wonder how good Zilean support would be with double ADC. Is Zilean good at harassing somebody under their tower? Quite good; the base range on his bomb is pretty good, plus he can do sneaky things like bomb creeps on both sides that are about to die near the enemy.
And if you have a jungle shaco, you time bomb shaco who invisibly bombs the enemy to start the gank :D
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Zilean is pretty good, I imagine the spellthief or w/e is a great item on him.
His bombs need a few levels to really be effective, I feel 3 (or 2 with AP runes) is when you really start chunking the enemy.
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Zilean + Syndra lane... Best harass in the game.
Who needs ADC anyways
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Was thinking support Sejuani might work in a 2-1-2 situation, where the support Sej is in a 2v1. If it's against an enemy melee, I could foresee it being quite problematic for them. Maybe pair it with something like Twitch. My thought process is as follows: her base damage is extremely high, and she gets a 70% slow that lasts 2.5 seconds by level 8. Pair that with a champion that does a lot of sustained damage, and it seems quite scary.
Also perhaps something stupid like Sejuani+Trundle 2v1 could be hilarious. Both are quite tanky, have massive slows, and Trundle can debuff the enemy's AD. I suppose the problem with these two is, if you don't get the 2v1 you want you're probably not in a great spot. I suspect that would probably apply to support Sejuani in general too.
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I think when you're considering 2-1-2 push centric comps, all champs in the duo lanes must be ranged.
Your focus is going to be taking early towers, not killing champions. You have to assume that whatever lane is in danger of being dove is going to be supported by the enemy jungler and that 2v2 dives will not work.
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On December 06 2013 15:29 Ketara wrote:
I think the problem with the Cass/Twitch kill lane wasn't gold, but more that there were certain opposing lanes they were just incapable of bullying (Cait/Sona being a big example)
Worth trying though, definitely.
Actually gold was one of the major issues. If Cass didn't get fed she couldn't build offense fast enough to continue to be a threat. Itemization was also a notable issue; some of the builds I tried simply didn't cut it.
The final major problem was coordination/experience. Twitch really needs to be up front and aggressive so Cass can key off his poison, and Cass needs to be right there with him. One of our problems was we had to keep running people who were very uncomfortable on Twitch, so unless the brush gambit worked the lane was always dodgy.
On December 06 2013 17:00 ticklishmusic wrote:
Zilean is pretty good, I imagine the spellthief or w/e is a great item on him.
His bombs need a few levels to really be effective, I feel 3 (or 2 with AP runes) is when you really start chunking the enemy.
Spellthief's Edge is actually somewhat iffy. His bombs hurt, but they're a lot riskier and less spammable than other harass abilities. You can't really make enough back from Tribute consistently.
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Who said 2-1-2 had to be push centric? I think it's a bit premature to say that is the only combination that will work. Monte proposed that as one possibility.
I think there are secondary considerations if there are going to be two ranged ADCs in a 2/1/2 situation, such as having someone who is reasonably tanky. I mean sure you could go Cait/Lulu, Varus/Janna or something, but if they get on top of your ADCs for any length of time, you're probably not in a good spot due to how fragile everyone is.
Maybe that's an argument to have Sejuani mid more than anything... <_<
I mean obviously they're going to have the jungler slide up to top lane soon enough, but I think Sej+Twitch would do fine against most melee top+jungler combinations.
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If your focus isn't to take down early towers then why would you do it?
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I can think of:
-Shit on enemy solo-laner.
-Babysit another weak-early lategame carry.
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So, in terms of specific champions to try, what "unconventional" supports do we want to try?
I want to try Urgot support.
Masteries would be something like 0/13/17, runes would be like AD/Armor/MR/AD or maybe even Arpen/Armor/MR/Arpen.
Core items would be Talisman of Ascension, Sightstone and Black Cleaver.
End build would be like Merc Treads, Talisman of Ascension, Ruby Sightstone, Black Cleaver, Iceborne Gauntlet.
Basic concept is that Urgots kit provides more of a supporty screw up the other team role rather than a do tons of damage role, and can now get gold without being in a laning position. He's a big lane bully, and starting Ancient Coin + Utility masteries (+Mana regen runes when runes change) will let him keep mana while bullying early game.
In teamfights he'll have scary engage with Shurelya active + his ult, good poking with acid hunters, and is building semi tanky with HP from Ruby Sightstone+BC to work with his built in ult resists. Or he can stay back and peel for the ADC by staying at max ult range from his own ADC and ulting an enemy champ who dives in.
He supports by getting autos and Q's on all the enemy damage dealers to make use of his passive rather than trying to kill targets, and using E + the BC shred to keep the enemy teams armor super low, and peeling with his ult and slows.
I think you'd want a team where his added armor shred is real beneficial, but in the right composition I think he'd be useful.
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Has the lategame 2nd ap carry from support had a red hot go yet? There are many potential candidates, including the already popular Annie and zyra. The obvious advantage is a legitimate ap damage threat at the expense of survivability. You also have extra pick potential. I think if you have a team comp with a tank top and/or jungle you can afford to build damage.
Could lead to some sick aoe/wombo comps with added damage.
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There are a lot of AP carries who's abilities are CC/utility heavy enough to look at them in a support role with increased gold.
Some candidates are:
Lux
Zyra
Annie
Fiddlesticks
Orianna
Elise
Leblanc
Maokai
Gragas
Kayle
Lissandra
Galio
Chogath
Cassiopeia
Nidalee
Viktor
I'm sure there are more. Zyra, Fiddlesticks, and IMO to a lesser extent Annie are already obviously awesome supports.
There are also a few ADs that I think might make pretty reasonable supports, such as:
Ashe
Urgot
Pantheon
Jarvan
People should totes add suggestions to these lists. Keep in mind that a support should still have
A - A strong early game
B - Skills that allow for some sort of peeling or CC in teamfights.
C - Even though you're getting more gold, shouldn't be a champ that requires a very high farm position, such as Ryze lets say.
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From S3:
Ashe support gets pooped on. She has no hard CC (except her ult) or escape and is squishy.
IDK about Urgot, Panth is one of those annoying bruiser ones that if you don't figure out will bully you out of lane.
J4 support has been fun and semi-legit imo, would have caught more traction but Nami came out.
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I think you'd want to pair Ashe with a laner who also has CC, such as Jinx. I also think she'd be more of a 2v1 support, sort of similar to Annie.
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On December 08 2013 01:24 Ketara wrote:
There are a lot of AP carries who's abilities are CC/utility heavy enough to look at them in a support role with increased gold.
Some candidates are:
Lux
Zyra
Annie
Fiddlesticks
Orianna
Elise
Leblanc
Maokai
Gragas
Kayle
Lissandra
Galio
Chogath
Cassiopeia
Nidalee
Viktor
I'm sure there are more. Zyra, Fiddlesticks, and IMO to a lesser extent Annie are already obviously awesome supports.
There are also a few ADs that I think might make pretty reasonable supports, such as:
Ashe
Urgot
Pantheon
Jarvan
People should totes add suggestions to these lists. Keep in mind that a support should still have
A - A strong early game
B - Skills that allow for some sort of peeling or CC in teamfights.
C - Even though you're getting more gold, shouldn't be a champ that requires a very high farm position, such as Ryze lets say.
I'd add Syndra, Xerath and Brand to that list. Syndra is an obvious choice. Plenty of Cc and nuke potential. The other two don't provide much cc but make up for it in straight damage. Both are pretty brutal in lane, particularly brand. His early damage is insane, especially against squishy adcs. Xerath gives you excellent poke and almost a guaranteed kill at 6. Obviously you need your team fight cc from another source eg. Utility mid like liss or cc junglers like naut or Sej.
They kinda fail against hard engage because they only have single target peel, so I wouldn't draft them first.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Stupid theorycraft Jax build:
* Boots
* Muramana
* Rod of Ages x4
Jax gets lots of health from the RoA, and the Muramana/RoA provide the free armor/MR during his ult. Muramana is procced on Jax's very fast basic attacks as well as his Q and W, so he makes a lot of use out of the insane mana pool. At full build, Muramana is near +100 AD and each proc is >200 additional damage.
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How does Kayle work with Targon's?
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On December 08 2013 09:44 ticklishmusic wrote:
How does Kayle work with Targon's?
Is E on? No execute.
Is E off? Execute.
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AP support Xerath is interesting. Pre-6 I see him being quite weak to anyone who wants to go all-in, while yet providing no sustain. After 6 he can actually push back in an all-in situation as long as he didn't get caught and blown up (by, say, Annie), and once he starts to rank up his W he has the potential to be a huge bully. But late-game he is absolutely game-changing.
Seems like he'd be good with Varus, perhaps, or maybe Caitlin: both have strong poke, and Varus brings a slow and a snare that makes it easier to hit all of Xerath's stuff in an all-in. Sej and J4 seem like good junglers with him, as does a Lissandra or maybe even Morgana mid.
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On December 08 2013 09:14 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Stupid theorycraft Jax build:
* Boots
* Muramana
* Rod of Ages x4
Jax gets lots of health from the RoA, and the Muramana/RoA provide the free armor/MR during his ult. Muramana is procced on Jax's very fast basic attacks as well as his Q and W, so he makes a lot of use out of the insane mana pool. At full build, Muramana is near +100 AD and each proc is >200 additional damage.
LOL if you actually managed to get these items in a real game it'd be hilarious while his ult was active.
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On December 10 2013 05:04 EquilasH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 09:14 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Stupid theorycraft Jax build:
* Boots
* Muramana
* Rod of Ages x4
Jax gets lots of health from the RoA, and the Muramana/RoA provide the free armor/MR during his ult. Muramana is procced on Jax's very fast basic attacks as well as his Q and W, so he makes a lot of use out of the insane mana pool. At full build, Muramana is near +100 AD and each proc is >200 additional damage. LOL if you actually managed to get these items in a real game it'd be hilarious while his ult was active.
But wouldn't you at least get Frozen Heart, maybe Lich Bane as well as last 1-2 items to peak sooner? (as by the time you'll get them, the rods will have stacked up.)
Ult is only 8 seconds though...
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On December 10 2013 05:04 EquilasH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 09:14 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Stupid theorycraft Jax build:
* Boots
* Muramana
* Rod of Ages x4
Jax gets lots of health from the RoA, and the Muramana/RoA provide the free armor/MR during his ult. Muramana is procced on Jax's very fast basic attacks as well as his Q and W, so he makes a lot of use out of the insane mana pool. At full build, Muramana is near +100 AD and each proc is >200 additional damage. LOL if you actually managed to get these items in a real game it'd be hilarious while his ult was active.
Assuming he bought Merc Treads, and assuming no runes or masteries, during his ult, Jax would have:
4872 HP
4460 mana
226 AD
320 AP
194 armor
187 MR
With MM proc, each Q and W would do ~900 damage. Every basic attack gets up to an additional 267 damage from the MM proc.
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Why not make one of those RoAs a Lich Bane so you can one-hit squishies with Q+ultpassive+W+Lichbane? 
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I think this Jax build theorycraft is silly.
4-5 RoA is strong on most champions because it's super efficient stats, but not many games get to the 70 minutes you need to stack all of your RoA's.
And how would you ever get there as Jax? You'd get beaten up in lane while you buy all that mana and AP.
Is very silly, too silly for TROLLS imo.
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I have a friend in diamond who still plays double RoA Anivia.
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That's because it's Anivia, though.
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TROLLS Agenda 12/10/2013:
Testing will start at 00:00 GMT (+00:00) as normal. The following will be tested:
- 2-1-2 / 1-2-2
- Push Centric
- Feed the Hard Carry
- Abuse the Solo
- Unorthodox Supports
- Urgot
- Kayle
- Galio
- Cassiopeia
2-1-2 / 1-2-2:
+ Show Spoiler +The nerfs to Relic Shield curbed this significantly, but it may still be worth investigating.
There are three strategies for the setup: Push hard, feed a hard carry, and/or abuse the enemy solo. We'll be prioritizing the push-centric strategy initially, with and without the suggested double ADC setup.
My primary concern at the moment is Dragon. With 2-1-2 the opposing team may opt to go for an early dragon. There are two ways to handle this. The first is to simply take the top tower in response. The second is to have the second duo take the mid lane instead of the top lane. Either should work for the purposes of testing.
Unorthodox Supports:
+ Show Spoiler +We've already seen a number of unorthodox supports become standard post-patch. For this reason LeBlanc, Zyra, Lux, and Fiddlesticks are not to be included in testing.
The primary champions we will be testing are Urgot, Kayle, Galio, and Cassiopeia. These are not the only champions available for testing. A number of other good suggestions have been made.
Let the testing begin.
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I will probably not be there till later in the evening, I have to turn in a report at 3 and it's 30 mins each way, so.
After this week I'll be good to go though.
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Just wanted to say I really like the Theory, Rationale, Kicker, Possible Drawback Format. It makes reading these so fun.
As for my own theory, what I would want to try some time comes from the fact I used to play RoC DotA 3.6 to 3.9c and I was scrubby in that and LoL too:
Theory: Dedicated/Split Defender
Rationale: Much like the idea of split pushing, this person would be a first line of defense. This person would not try to actively engage on defense, rather they should be more of zone/prevent defense mindset. This includes warding, recon, making sure lanes stay pushed past river for most if not all lanes while not really traveling past the river except in certain cases. In RoC DotA some of the characters I played were Veno/Void on the Scorge and Toto/PotM for Sentinel. It would be my job to use the dogs for recon/warding and also help cover the sneak lanes between mid and the sides. I wasn't really to cross the river unless a fight needed extra support.
I became fairly helpful when employing this and I was begining to wonder if this can work in LoL in some compacity. The quickest change persay I can think of is that there is no sneak lanes and that the jungle is more open. In RoC DotA, the jungle was basically a dedicated area on the topleft/botright. The area around the sneak lanes had creeps too along with a creep infront of the midlane shops for both sides. I am not sure if having a dedicated defender is wise given that there is more angles of attack in LoL. Then again because there is more angles of attack, having some one to shut down some of them, or at least have the enemy second guess ideas might be the type of timing play that could change the tide of some battles.
Kicker: I think when LoL had the roamer would be the closest style that would sort of match this style of play. Being that season 4 allows so much gold generation for people like supports, we could see this as the perfect time to at least attempt this idea.
Possible Drawback: Your telling some one to split off from the main group so you fall into the possible same traps as split pushing. The defender is playing a more passive role so they might not get the same gold as they would if part of the group (mainly missing out on kills/assists/tower gold). It may just be a waste of time period.
Addendum: I have two ideas of champs that could work in this
1) Heimer - with his turrets and rockets he's good at wave clear so he can be on his own for a bit, not having an escape wouldn't be too much of a factor as it would if he was more on offense, offense would miss his pushing power so that would be a quick drawback
2) Ashe - With the changes to warding in season 4, I believe ashe is the single most important char when it comes to recon, hawkshot covers a huge area(from base wall to baron), with Clairvoyance and wards, Ashe can keep any area she wants under constant surveillance while freeing up gold for someone else to not worry about warding as much
Thoughts?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
hawkshot has a really long cooldown
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On December 11 2013 06:14 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
hawkshot has a really long cooldown
Indeed, even with CDR you can only get hawkshot down to 45-48 seconds. You have to figure that you can get two or three off in the time a ward is up (180 seconds). Combine that with Clairvoyance and your only really as effective as one person's one ward, granted you have a bit more option as to what areas you cover.
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Oh woops, I misread the time as 2 instead of 4.
I'll be there, hooray.
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I'm glad to see this is still going on. I hope to be involved in the future.
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So, here's what I saw today from the games I was in:
Rush comps:
Duo mid and duo bot might be a better idea.
I think we could try it again but we should really think out the composition for it. The composition is really important because basically this is a cheese rush comp and we should treat it like that, IMO.
Unconventional supports:
Kayle seemed fine.
I really liked Pantheon. Whether or not it's better than Leona I think is worth discussing though.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I don't know why Kayle is listed as an unconventional support. I don't think she was ever really that unconventional: she has Armor/MR shredding, a strong slow, decent heal, strong poke (albeit poke that pushes), and as far as Protect-The-Doublelift strategies go, her ultimate is perfect for that teamcomp.
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United States23745 Posts
On December 12 2013 03:57 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I don't know why Kayle is listed as an unconventional support. I don't think she was ever really that unconventional: she has Armor/MR shredding, a strong slow, decent heal, strong poke (albeit poke that pushes), and as far as Protect-The-Doublelift strategies go, her ultimate is perfect for that teamcomp.
It's more of a matter of other Supports doing her job better. Her laning isn't that great without items. If you're playing her for her ultimate, might as well stick her mid.
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On December 10 2013 08:37 Ketara wrote:
I think this Jax build theorycraft is silly.
4-5 RoA is strong on most champions because it's super efficient stats, but not many games get to the 70 minutes you need to stack all of your RoA's.
And how would you ever get there as Jax? You'd get beaten up in lane while you buy all that mana and AP.
Is very silly, too silly for TROLLS imo.
Yeah... Jax is already a monster past 8k gold anyway, why delay for 10 more minutes while your second+ ROA stack?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
What about full stacking BTs on AD carries that have good ratios and stuff?
Let's say I'm playing an AD that doesn't generally build IE, like, say, Lucian/Varus/Sivir, where you're banking on the fact that you scale so well on raw AD. I don't know enough about the math behind the game to figure out how the damage would compare.
Let's say you have a choice of two full builds:
build A:
Zerkers, BT, BT, BT, LW, defensive item
build B:
Zerkers, BT, Shiv, LW, IE, defensive item
For Varus and Sivir specifically, how is your damage output gonna compare between the two?
Alternatively, how good is stacking Aspd and having near 100% crit?
Build A:
Zerkers, IE, PD, Shiv, LW, defensive item
Build B:
Zerkers, IE, PD, BT, LW, defensive item
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As far as stacking BT's, you're competing with the already-established build of BT LW IE, which already accomplishes basically the same thing. You probably don't want a second BT before the LW if your ratios are so great, because even baseline armor growth will make the LW have super-value on your high physical damage abilities.
The build comparison looks more like:
BT > LW > IE
vs your build of
BT > BT > LW
4th item notwithstanding (the later an item is in the build, the less relevant it is. We're already spending over 10k gold here!)
At that point, you have soooo much AD that it's hard to say no to the crit of IE, which scales stupidly well with the huge AD anyway. You're NOT competing with the Shiv/PD builds directly.
For the PD+Shiv build, you have to really like AS, and at that point you're competing with the other high-AS builds that Vayne & Co like of BORK-PD.
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The thing about ADC stats is that they're multiplicative, and really easy to do math on of which is giving you the optimum autoattack damage.
The more AD you have the more DPS you're getting per point of attack speed and crit, the more crit you have the more DPS you're getting per point of attack speed and AD, and the more attack speed you have the more DPS you're getting per point of AD and crit. So it's generally best to be getting all three stats.
Furthermore, it's not something that actually requires games to test. You can just sit down with a calculator and figure out what the best mathematical build is for damage.
I don't think people do that for their ADCs enough (or for any character), and I think that there are a lot of builds for multiple champions that are slightly superior mathematically to what people currently buy, just nobody takes the time to actually figure it out.
But at the end of the day, it's not really something worth testing here since you can just go into a champion thread and do build math and discuss it. We want to test things that actually require games to be played to figure them out.
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On December 12 2013 03:57 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I don't know why Kayle is listed as an unconventional support. I don't think she was ever really that unconventional: she has Armor/MR shredding, a strong slow, decent heal, strong poke (albeit poke that pushes), and as far as Protect-The-Doublelift strategies go, her ultimate is perfect for that teamcomp.
She wasn't normal in S3 because she's pretty meh if she's just an ult. The thing is, with new support income and such she's not just an ult anymore.
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On December 12 2013 16:24 krndandaman wrote:
How about bruiser gragas?
With the E changes building him bruiser seems to be decent.
Good tankiness+ad steroid, lots of sustain, great CC, and his E actually scales better with AD.
His other skills aren't that useless in the toplane with Q reducing atkspeed up to 40% at max level and his ult providing great CC with decent base damage. Mixed damage ftw?
Also every E hit reduces CD by half.
This actually seems viable somewhat.
I'd love to hear thoughts on this as well. Especially considering how Trinity seems in theory so strong on him, all parts (even parts of sheen/zeal/phage) are very good for him as a bruiser build.
Spirit Visage seems tailor made for a bruiser Gragas build, all the stats are bonkers on him as an off/tank.
Full on out hybrids red/quints and standard armor+mr yellows and blues would probably be the optimal rune page.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
How about "autoattack Ryze"? Ryze was indirectly nerfed a lot by the removal of Banshee Veil's mana component, but consciously choosing to mix AA's into his QWQEQ combo opens up a lot of other helpful mana items: Manamune + one of Iceborn Gauntlet/Trinity Force/Lich Bane. Manamune also addresses the issue of how Ryze is one of the worst champions in the game at stacking Tear.
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On December 12 2013 21:23 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 16:24 krndandaman wrote:
How about bruiser gragas?
With the E changes building him bruiser seems to be decent.
Good tankiness+ad steroid, lots of sustain, great CC, and his E actually scales better with AD.
His other skills aren't that useless in the toplane with Q reducing atkspeed up to 40% at max level and his ult providing great CC with decent base damage. Mixed damage ftw?
Also every E hit reduces CD by half.
This actually seems viable somewhat. I'd love to hear thoughts on this as well. Especially considering how Trinity seems in theory so strong on him, all parts (even parts of sheen/zeal/phage) are very good for him as a bruiser build. Spirit Visage seems tailor made for a bruiser Gragas build, all the stats are bonkers on him as an off/tank. Full on out hybrids red/quints and standard armor+mr yellows and blues would probably be the optimal rune page.
So I've done a fair amount of tank gragas and i've ventured now and then towards more bruisery.
My feeling is that you really need to tank up hard before you can get super bruisery. If you go straight to triforce, you'll be too squishy in fights. Maybe this is just because I'm used to playing tanks, but here's what works best for me in terms of build:
Spirit Visage -> Sheen -> Randuins -> Triforce against a balanced-damage team
if you're stomping your lane, get Sheen first
get Ninja Tabi and maybe early Warden Mail against a phys lane/phys team
rush Cowl then get Merc Treads against a magic lane/magic team
I've usually been running flash tele or ghost tele, opening flask, and eventually getting Distortion enchant for boots
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So, for the 2-1-2 comp.
What if we ran Caitlyn Nunu mid? Has a lot of pushing power and Nunu can blood boil Cait and then check buffs, and has good buff control with Consume.
Then you can run Cho'Gath top and play him nice and push heavy, followed by Sivir+whatever bot lane.
Thoughts?
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Cho' is the CC king, with a nice true damage munch on divers to top it off.
Personally I think Shyvana is just brutal at the moment though.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
The weakness of the double ADC comp is divers. Double ADC comps eventually collapse if you cannot protect the squishies. Hence why Cho'Gath a better choice than Teemo; true damage + knockup + slow + silence to peel for your ADC's. He's also a rock in lane and won't suffer too much from lack of a jungler.
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So how about this comp:
Top lane - Cho, takes teleport.
Mid lane - Caitlyn Nunu, Nunu takes smite.
Bot lane - Jinx Zilean
Make this a blue side comp.
Cait/Nunu do red buff at level 1, Nunu smite/consumes it and then Cait takes it and goes to lane. Nunu opens relic shield, takes his charges, hits level 2, then blood boils Cait and goes to blue buff, gives blue buff to Cho with another smite/consume.
Cho with blue buff powerhouses and pushes like crazy, Cait with red buff pushes like crazy, Nunu shows up wherever the enemy jungler goes.
Bot lane Jinx Zilean is good at bullying, good at clearing, good at harassing people under towers and good at poking down towers. Zileans passive is making up for the EXP deficit of going 2-1-2. Zilean goes ancient coin and after finishing Talisman builds AP items, while Nunu gets the more supporty stuff like Mikaels + Locket.
After taking down outer towers you group up early either as 5 or 4+Cho splitting and teleporting into fights. The objective is to never engage, you're just going to push hard and take towers. Cait + Jinx both have huge AA range to poke at towers.
When the enemy engages on you Cho and Nunu peel, Zilean revives whichever carry they focus, and Cait+Jinx kill them.
Bans would be Olaf, Sivir, and then some mid with good waveclear and anti siege that you think might be picked like Lux/Ziggs/whoever.
Alternative picks:
Yorick maybe? Also good at early bullying with blue buff, another revive ult.
Sivir for the duo lane potentially. I like Jinx's AA range though.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
The other advantage of Cho is that Smite got nerfed, but his ult didn't. Between Nunu/Cho it should be impossible to be outsmited.
Come to think of it I like the idea of Cho support. The Relic Shield line of items is great on him, he has great CC/utility, his ult secures neutral monsters, and if he's just supporting he shouldn't lose his stacks that often. You'd probably have to pick him into a melee enemy support though, and his mana issues might be crippling if you miss Rupture too many times.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I feel like people always considerably overestimate the difficulty of landing Rupture. It's difficult to hit against an unimpeded enemy, but any enemy afflicted by any slow, chokepoint, or other kind of movement restriction is a sitting duck. The amount of the cc applied also makes up for the difficulty of hitting it: a knockup plus 60% slow afterwards.
The 2.5s silence is also not dodgeable.
I agree on the rest of your points. Which is why I think he is more useful as a disengage / peel cc tank, as opposed to an engage cc tank. Rupture is much stronger as a disengage than as an engage.
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What I'm looking for with the Cho pick is somebody who
A - pushes very hard
B - is hard to gank and can keep pushing even in a 1v2.
C - brings lots of peel and disengage to teamfights and can kill diving bruisers. Engaging is really not necessary.
D - Is fine taking teleport.
E - Likes blue buff.
That's why I think Cho is ideal. I'm also liking the idea of Yorick, though.
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On December 16 2013 10:36 krndandaman wrote:
I think jayce fits your criteria better. Yorick and cho are actually easy to gank. Perhaps kayle? Karma top? Lotsa options actually
Wut Cho's you been ganking?
o.o
Flash + Rupture is really hard to gank. Either you run right through the rupture and cho runs away because you both CC'd, or or let up on your chase and Cho gets away anyway. I could probably post like 300+ minutes of people chasing around HSGG's Chogath while S2 CLG took barons / Inhibs / Dragons.
That being said, I have a requiest for you guys. Early Ap Sion - > Late AD Sion.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=438219¤tpage=32#633
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I actually think Shikyo might be onto something with the Malzahar support. Voidlings and space aids hit like trucks early and that ult is easier to use effectively as peel/antidive than it is to pick off a priority target. Voidlings won't even do much less damage than AP versions of Malz, since they don't scale off AP.
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Malz has limited ways to harass pre 6 though. I assume you're just gonna max E and hit it on their carry with 650 range? And how will you get voidlings out if you aren't using spells to kill minions?
Post 6 he's probably a great support.
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Jungle Morgana~
Runes are hybrid pen/atkspd, mr/level, flat armor, AP quint with 0/13/17 masteries (pick what you want really, just want the bladed armor and buff duration). Start machete + 5, can clear to spirit stone + boots.
Difficult first clear, but after that incredibly fast with a couple levels in W. Q is an amazing ganking tool combined with a lane that has some sort of CC, and putting E on a laner lets them dive easily without worrying about CC. Midgame her kit has amazing teamfight potential. Her ult is a little awkward to use (at least for me), but can be good in teamfights.
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Malz has no peeling or sustain at all pre-6 too (not even a slow), nor does he have damage mitigation tools, and he can't all-n as hard as other champions in this case (Blitzcrank, Leona).
What would you do in case of strong jungle presence? He's pretty slow with his base MS so even walking near river is risky. Well, I guess you can still fuck with Vi by silencing her while her Q charges but apart from that...
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if you have to put malz somewhere, put him bot with soraka and enjoy the infinit push line.
You then put someone like cayt/lucian/ez in mid and you can have some fun there.
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TROLLS Agenda 12/17/2013:
Testing will start at 00:00 GMT (+00:00) as normal. The following will be tested:
- 2-1-2 / 1-2-2
- Unorthodox Supports
- Urgot
- Kayle
- Galio
- Cassiopeia
- Cho'gath
2-1-2 / 1-2-2:
+ Show Spoiler +Last week's testing exposed some serious problems with this concept. If the ideas presented this past week fail to patch up the glaring issues, this concept will likely be shelved.
This week we'll be trying Caitlyn/Nunu mid, with another good push AD (Jinx, Sivir, Lucian) paired with a strong pushing support (Lulu, Zyra, Syndra). Top will take Teleport and generally be someone who can endure and counter-push.
Unorthodox Supports:
+ Show Spoiler +We had a number of successful tests with Kayle last week, and some data on Cassiopeia. However, we need significantly more testing to have conclusive results.
I would still like to test support Urgot. The key with support Urgot is potent jungle assist. Once Urgot hits level 6 his reposition ability combined with persistent slows is a huge threat when coupled with a jungler. That seems to be the key draw, though his harass is not terrible.
I've added support Cho'gath as I believe there's merit there. Support Malzahar, however, strikes me as an idea that only works against lanes where the enemy support lacks CC (which is to say, almost none of them). Malzahar's main draw, his ult, isn't going to work when the enemy support is right there to silence/stun him.
Let the testing continue.
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I think the 1-2-2 is going to be inferior to having a jungler no matter the teamcomp/situation. double ad comps aren't new. it's harder to deny experience in midlane and a ranged midlaner with good clear like ori is not going to be put as far behind as you'd need for this to work.
I'm not quite sure why the toplaner with teleport is necessary. If what you want is dragon presence, or general map presence and 3-4 man ganks then I can think of 10 better teamcomps. Or you can just take shen and still keep ignite. (just ban shyvana [and mundo?]).
I'm willing to reconsider support urgot. I did enjoy the game one of support cassiopeia.
I guess we're discarding support anivia as too troll for TROLLS?
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The point of TROLLS is to take phrases starting with "I think" and turn them into phrases that start with "I know with a fair degree of certainty". We're going to give 2-1-2/1-2-2 another shot so that our degree of confidence is high.
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We are starting, need peepz.
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TY to everybody who showed up today, was fun. We'll have to try support Brand some more.
Screw 2-1-2, it sux.
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Our successful "2-1-2" was actually jungle Nunu, so yes it doesn't appear to work.
As next week is Christmas Eve and the week after is New Year's Eve, TROLLS will be taking a break. As I'll be on my honeymoon the week after that, Ketara will be in charge on the 7th.
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Will you? Well, 'grats then.
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Dam.. I missed it again.. I knew I should start a game of CivV 2 hours before the trolls start I never saw the time go...
Have a good break Monty.
I hope for next year that we start to try again more "weird" or more "special" stuff like we did before.
I want more "puppy mid"
I want more "double AP bot"
I want more "Syndra support"
Stuff like that ...
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It's hard to test "weird" stuff when everything is still very weird and in flux. As the meta settles it'll become easier to find ideas which are sufficiently weird for your tastes.
We tried Brand support last night with Alistar Jungle. At one point Omnom apparently forgot that Brand was not a melee champion but otherwise it worked okay. Cow Jungle is legit yo.
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sorry i missed yalls again, last day of finals
see you jan 7, I hope!
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So, lets discuss some Brand. I want to see how support Brand compares to support Annie, whom I feel is the most similar.
The advantage of Brand is:
A - High early game damage
B - %health damage later in the game, letting him still do damage with a more support and less AP Carry item setup.
C - At 40% CDR a 2 second stun on a 3.6 second cooldown
Comparing damage with Annie.
Brands level 6 combo:
465+2.25 AP+8% max HP min
806+3.3 AP+8% max HP max
Annies:
545+2.15 AP base
35+0.2 per second Tibbers aura
Some things I think are worth noting:
Max CDR gives Brand lots of peel against divers with a 3.6 second stun. Late game he can just stun and use his other abilities to keep targets ablaze for more stuns.
Because of his passive, a Rylai+Liandry combo I think would be quite effective. Rylai keeping targets slowed for the entire 4 seconds they are ablaze, and Liandry also ticking for that whole time, means Brand doesn't necessarily have to build lots of AP items to keep doing damage like Annie does. One well placed W would do 8% max health + 20% current health in damage.
This also means that % damage increases are really good on Brand, rather than conventional AP increasing items.
So we could see an item build such as:
Talisman of Ascension
Mikhaels Crucible
Liandry
Rylai
Ruby Sightstone
With a 9/0/21 mastery page and CDR boots. Alternatively we could go 13/0/17 masteries, take Sorc shoes, and Morellonomicon instead of the Crucible.
Plz u discuzz.
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Brand is alright. If you take advantage of his passive burn (its 8% over 4 seconds) plus the initial spell damage and reduce from base MR, you can be pretty annoying. Plus, a support with ye olde waveclear is always nice.
That's just theorycrafting though.
I think it general its probably better to put a bruiser-type as a support. They reach a good place on their power-curve much easier than AP's. For example, if you do Darius you gra your Tabi and a Hexdrinker and you run over the enemy lane. We already saw stuff like J4 support sometimes, so it seems that they'd be a more natural choice.
The entire walking the line thing with AP/ ranged supports is iffy too. One wrong move, everything is gone. The bruiser-types are much more forgiving.
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The problem I've seen/felt with most ranged unorthodox supports is that you need to maintain bush control very well, while also making sure you never get bumrushed before you can finish your CC chain - as is the case with at least Brand.
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you guys didn't try ashe support when talking about unorthodox supports?
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Ashe has been discussed.
Wanted to verify no TROLLS today, is Xmas Evesmas.
Next TROLLs day will be Jan 7th. By then I'd like to have a better idea of specifically what supports we think are worth trying.
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I don't want to say that Support brand is a bad idea without trying it, but I don't think he can be compared to annie in the support role at all.
Support Annie has targetted harass in lane, and 2 instant aoe stuns -- The main one being tibbers, which paired with flash is one of the scariest things to face (reason why I loved jungle Annie in season 2).
Brand works more like elise with a stun that is either harder to land and/or does not have the range of elise's; he is very limited by mana costs in lane, and has no utility other than his skillshot stun besides doing high damage in teamfights. I could see his ult being good at messing people's positioning in constrained areas but there's already zyra for that and her ult adds the knock up.
I will concede that if Brand somehow manages to win botlane hard, he'll be as threatening as the ap carry, skipping unnecessary items and going for damage, forcing objectives.
I'm still sad no one wants to discuss support Anivia. D: She's about as good as brand. And has real catching potential. (J.K. She sucks, and so does Brand)
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That's really my assessment. I'm good with entertaining the idea and I feel like Brand has more potential than Annie, but in a real game I think Annie makes more sense in my head. Brand is all peeling and damage while Annie has ways to threaten/poke without spending mana and can initiate teamfights later in the game.
I'll make a post about my support Urgot idea later. I really like the concept for him, but I think he requires a specific team comp to work right.
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My brother is having real success with Sion support, going 6-0 in mid silver. He builds AP runes, tank masteries, maxes R>Q>W with no E. His build is coin rush all the way to talisman, Sightstone, boots 1 when funds permit, Void staff as 3rd item and only offensive item building tank item after that.
His theory is the passive makes him very tanky early game with q and w allowing for nice trade ratios and gank assistance.
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What rank is this?
Oh I see, mid silver. Support Sion sounds really ehhhhhhh to me.
Anyway, support Urgot theorycraft.
Urgot's entire kit basically has support centric stuff on it.
He has:
Good lane bullying harass combo with Q+E.
Passive is basically a Sona W power chord. In teamfights he just uses all his skills and then focuses on getting one auto/Q on each enemy damage dealer.
On demand slows with shield.
Good engage with ult. People don't like engaging with Urgot ult when he's played as a carry because they think of it as trading carries. However, with support Urgot we can build semi tanky, and even if it's a 1 for 1 trade we're trading a high value target for our support.
Urgots ult also allows you to set up a ridiculously favorable fight at level 6. If you have a jungler waiting offscreen Urgot ult can guarantee minimum one kill at 6.
The core build would be Talisman of Ascension, Brutalizer and Glacial Shroud, with Sightstone and Merc Treads.
Talisman gives him his gold item, and opening Coin gives him the mana regen he needs to sustain his high mana harassment in lane. All together these items give him 40% CDR, all the regen needed, some damage and reasonable tankiness coupled with his ult, shield and merc treads. The active on Talisman is always great, but it's especially good for Urgot because it lets him run in to get a favorable ult target or catch somebody who is running away with his ult.
End game build would be Talisman, Black Cleaver, Iceborne Gauntlet, Ruby Sightstone, Merc Treads, and 6th item could be variable depending on team needs, but probably added tankiness like Randuins or Banshees.
BC coupled with his E gives him an AoE 40% armor shred, which with the right team is a huge damage increase. Pair this with a Riven or a Yasuo or something like that and you're increasing their damage by a tremendous amount. Iceborne increases his damage with Sheen procs, gives him tanky stats and CDR, and also increases his peel by giving him more slows.
I think this has the potential to be strong but it needs the right team to work correctly. You want:
A - A fellow duo laner with some kind of slow to make it easy to land acid charges. Ashe, Jinx, Varus etc would all probably work well, but a Lucian probably would not.
B - A team that really likes his armor shred or can really easily assassinate his ult target. Riven/Zed/Yasuo/Khazix/Yi etc would all be good with him.
I'm not 100% positive on masteries for him but I might do this: http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/mastery-tree-planner#&tree1=0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree2=2-0-2-0-1-3-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree3=0-3-3-0-2-1-1-3-0-0-1-1-1-0-0-0-0-0&v=2
I really think this will be best with the rune changes, because mana regen runes will be much easier to get then presumably, and if Urgot really wants to be scary in lane he needs a LOT of mana regen. The rune page I might use for him now would be AD / Armor / MR, and mana regen quints.
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I'd run Sion in a kill lane with someone. Double Targon double stun double kill.
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On December 27 2013 07:54 Ketara wrote:
I think this has the potential to be strong but it needs the right team to work correctly. You want:
A - A fellow duo laner with some kind of slow to make it easy to land acid charges. Ashe, Jinx, Varus etc would all probably work well, but a Lucian probably would not.
B - A team that really likes his armor shred or can really easily assassinate his ult target. Riven/Zed/Yasuo/Khazix/Yi etc would all be good with him.
I think that Varus goes very well with this. When Urgot ults, the enemy is basically going to collapse on him, making the team a prime target for Varus' ult. People are drawn to what they think are easy to kill targets and this support Urgot is a lot more durable then he lets on. Ashe is a good second due to her arrow. In effect the ults from Ashe/Varus do the same thing, but I feel that Varus has the better chance of catching more of the opponents in his ult than Ashe.
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A slight side discussion I want to talk about is the revival of AP top laners in the new tanky/bruiser top lane meta. The current stipulation/rules for having such a champ viable is this:
1. Able to deal with a Shyvana, Munro, Elise or Olaf getting a Negatron/Cowl/SV within the first back or two.
2. Able to fulfill a relevant role in a team fight composition (tank, engage/disengage, bruiser, etc.)
3. Be able to not build optimally and still be relevant.
Of the champs that fulfill those 3 rules, I think the only ones that can do it are Diana, Elise, Zac, Kayle, and Brand.
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After watching Blue try it...
Has anybody tried making Double Jungle work?
I was thinking you have two junglers:
-one that can live in the enemy jungle and is a giant dick in both 1v1 and early game ganks while being hard to kill (Shaco?)
-another jungler that more or less stays on your side, farms it up, and supports/pressures whatever lane is losing
You pick Double Jungle if the enemy jungler is bad vs counterjungling which would allow your offensive jungler to gain an advantage.
If the enemy jungler is weak early-game:
-you can get more gold for your side and starve the enemy jungler while giving your laners all solo lane XP. A starved enemy jungler makes your lanes safer
-you might get the enemy laners to do stuff they don't want to do, like leave lane to help their jungler, which makes your lanes safer
-you can make a standard 2v2 lane if you really want to and pull back your enemy side jungler if things really aren't going to plan
-if you plan for having a 1v2 lane and build a teamcomp around it, it won't be so bad
Thoughts?
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A couple weeks ago I have played a normal game with 2 junglers in soloQ, some thoughts:
- It is an high risk strategy but not with a high reward.
- Bot line can have a hard time if the enemy team becomes too aggresive and have decent siege/dive or hard CC.
- It can be dangerous: when bot line is pushed to your tower, the jungler in the enemy side can be hunted by bot line.
- If both junglers arent coordinated It bot ganks can be a huge fail. For example if a jungler does a bad gank in bot, it wont be a 2v2, it will be 2v1 twice.
Im not a high ranked player it is just my humble opinion, hopefully someone finds out how to do right.
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I don't think there is much use in having two junglers, personally. One of the junglers is going to have to pay a lot of attention to the 1v2 lane and counterjungling is not always easy.
I do think there is some merit to the idea of going 2v1 mid with a roaming support. I liked our 2v1 Caitlyn Nunu mid, that seemed like it had some potential. It might be neat to go a normal comp with Cait/Nunu mid and Nunu expected to roam, even if the extent of his roaming is to counterjungle the enemy wraiths with Consume.
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I don't like duo jungle either. I think the reverse would be much stronger honestly-- you can take buffs and some camps early, then 2v1 top which forces the enemy jungler to react. Either he comes top to help and is behind because of the way xp is allocated in a lane with multiple allied champs, or he farms and tries to make a play elsewhere and lets his toplane get trampled.
I think that since the game hinges so much on having a strong toplaner right now, it would be pretty worthwhile to sacrifice some jungling power for gimping your enemy top.
That aside, I think there's some real potential with Soraka right now as a non-bot lane champ.
If we put her mid in a 2v1, she can:
1. Keep her lane buddy topped off on mana, potentially donating blue to a jungler (or solo lane) champ who needs it
2. Hold the lane while her partner roams (Q waveclear, E silence to prevent getting combo'd, W sustain)
3. Easy assists with global heal
4. Shorter lane makes ganking her much harder
Implications for top are similar.
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So, here's some math we can put into a TROLLS test sometime:
The common opener we're seeing from ADC these days is Dorans Blade +1 potion. At least that's what I'm seeing on everybody all the time.
Dorans Blade gives 80 HP, 8 AD, and 3 HP gained per autoattack.
In S3 we pretty much proved that his was by far the best opening for ADC, after we proved that Dorans Blade outsustained the extra potion from Longsword. But Longsword has been buffed, and Dorans Blade has been nerfed, so is this still true?
Lets examine some other openers.
Longsword +3
+ Show Spoiler +In S3 Dorans gave 80 HP and 5 HP regen per auto, while Longsword gave 300 regen from potions. This meant Dorans Blade outsustained Longsword at 44 autoattacks, and we figured you did 44 autos before going back to base. This, plus Dorans Blade being better for early all ins, made it an obvious buy.
In S4, Dorans only gives 3 HP regen per auto. Since you can get a potion with both now Dorans Blade is now even better for early all ins, but at 3 HP regen per auto, it now takes 73.3 autos for it to outsustain Longsword +3, nearly twice as much. It also only gives 8 AD to Longswords 10.
I'm not awesome enough to know how much the difference between 44 to 73 autos matters, but it is a big change. If your intent in lane is to go BT or Cutlass first and you aren't expecting a big level 2 all in, you might think about going Longsword over Dorans Blade due to cost efficiency reasons.
Relic Shield +3
+ Show Spoiler +Relic Shield lets you open Relic + 3 potions. It has 6 HP regen, 50 HP, and the passive.
The main thing to look at is the regen. 6 HP/5 means that in order for Dorans Blade to match Relic Shield in regen, you need to be doing 24 autoattacks per minute. Or on average you need to autoattack every minion that spawns about two times.
Realistically, this does not happen. So, by some margin, Relic Shield gives more regen than Dorans Blade does, even without counting the extra 2 potions you get opening Relic Shield.
The extra potions and healing from the passive going to your support means that Relic Shield is a more defensive option than Dorans Blade is. If you are not expecting to get kills in lane and are playing more of a late game setup, Relic Shield will keep you in the lane longer even if the lack of 8 AD means you are losing trades more than you would otherwise.
Finally, Relic Shield on an ADC still gives gold to their support. The item costs 365 gold and sells for 146, a difference of 219 gold. At the start of the game, a melee minion gives 19 gold. So assuming a charge is used on a melee minion every 60 seconds, Relic Shield gives about 4 GP10, +24 gold at the start since you begin with 2 charges.
There are some discrepencies there. You aren't going to use a charge immediately when it comes up every time, but on the other hand giving gold to your support early helps them get their rank 2 gold item faster which increases their own gold generation, and if used correctly you're killing cannon minions with it as well. Realistically you're actually getting more than 4 GP10 out of the item, but probably less than 5.
Basically, this means in order for Relic Shield to turn a profit, your ADC only has to carry it for about 8 minutes. That is easily doable. I've tested about a dozen games of Relic Shield ADC since the nerf, and have found that I typically give my support about 500 gold before selling the thing.
Dorans Shield
+ Show Spoiler +But Ketara you say, going Relic Shield is silly. I'm an ADC, I want to build selfish items!
Okay, whatevs. However, if you want a more defensive option, you might look at a Dorans Shield instead of that Dorans Blade.
Dorans Shield blocks 8 damage per auto, while Dorans Blade gives 8 AD. These things are not exactly the same, but we can cheat and say they're roughly similar. If you're an ADC whose skills don't have AD ratios, they really are pretty goddamn similar. Shield is just defensive, while Blade is offensive.
However, Dorans Shield gives 20 more HP, and 10 HP/5. If we surmised that 6 HP/5 from Relic Shield was some amount more than the HP per auto sustain was on Dorans Blade, then Dorans Shield must be outsustaining Dorans Blade by quite a ways. A better comparison might be Dorans Shield vs. Relic Shield. Relic Shield gives 2 extra potions, and Dorans Shield gives an extra 4 HP/5 and 50 more HP. This means that Dorans Shield outsustains Relic Shield after about 5 minutes of laning, which is similar to how long it took Dorans Blade to outsustain Longsword in S3.
So, IN CONCLUSION:
I'm not saying that Dorans Blade is a bad opener, but it is certainly not as obvious a choice as it was in season 3. There are other options.
Especially if you are an ADC who doesn't have big AD ratios, likes playing passive in the early game and focuses on winning later in the game, a Relic Shield or Dorans Shield opening may be superior (Tristana, Kogmaw and Vayne are examples). Assuming that 8 less AD doesn't mean you miss all your last hits  .
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I will be around today if anybody wants to test stuff at 4 PM.
Monte back next week.
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In S3, you tested the strategy of giving early red/blue to adc/mid laner, I was wondering with the possibility of giving the blue buff to the support.
In S4 the AP support is very common, giving the second blue buff to that kind of support, with more CDR and less mana problems in the early game, it can be really interesting, and it will give to bot lane an advantage.
Only in compositions with a manales mid laner and a jungler that can survive without the blue buff.
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On January 09 2014 04:40 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 01:42 drkcid wrote:
In S3, you tested the strategy of giving early red/blue to adc/mid laner, I was wondering with the possibility of giving the blue buff to the support.
In S4 the AP support is very common, giving the second blue buff to that kind of support, with more CDR and less mana problems in the early game, it can be really interesting, and it will give to bot lane an advantage.
Only in compositions with a manales mid laner and a jungler that can survive without the blue buff. something like mid riven/zed/akali with jungle rengar/mundo/shyv I guess. I once faced a support karma that accidentally took blue from his jungler and it was hell at bot. lucian/karma with blue has bullshit zoning/poke/disengage.
Wasn't me, but I've done the same thing as Karma supp and it was AMAZING. Her issues stem from mana problems, and being able to spam q poke is incredible.
Something a friend and I have been testing since seeing Kayklebot do it is Kayle/Annie (or following Annie ban another aggressive AP) duo bot. Incredibly aggressive duo that dominates the early game but falls off late (need to win with the incredible dmg burst Kayle gets after grabbing nashor's/lich bane combo)
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On January 09 2014 04:40 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 01:42 drkcid wrote:
In S3, you tested the strategy of giving early red/blue to adc/mid laner, I was wondering with the possibility of giving the blue buff to the support.
In S4 the AP support is very common, giving the second blue buff to that kind of support, with more CDR and less mana problems in the early game, it can be really interesting, and it will give to bot lane an advantage.
Only in compositions with a manales mid laner and a jungler that can survive without the blue buff. something like mid riven/zed/akali with jungle rengar/mundo/shyv I guess. I once faced a support karma that accidentally took blue from his jungler and it was hell at bot. lucian/karma with blue has bullshit zoning/poke/disengage.
Exactly, if you have a team composition that allows you the luxury of giving the blue buff to the sup, you can win bot lane early and have the possibility of taking dragons easily.
But It could be dangerous, the sup is usually weak and vulnerable to ganks, so if the enemy team makes a successfuly gank in the bot line, the blue buf will give the advantage to the enemy team.
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I do want to see what it would be like to have a Supportish jungle and an AP carry support.
What I mean is the support player gets Talisman or whatever and then goes pure selfish items after that, and the jungler gets golem stone or whatever but builds Sightstone and Mikhaels etc. Then in mid/late game the burden of warding moves to the jungler and the support starts taking farm.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On December 15 2013 10:23 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Come to think of it I like the idea of Cho support. The Relic Shield line of items is great on him, he has great CC/utility, his ult secures neutral monsters, and if he's just supporting he shouldn't lose his stacks that often. You'd probably have to pick him into a melee enemy support though, and his mana issues might be crippling if you miss Rupture too many times.
I've been trying this in normals. It's ultra high variance -- like a tightrope.
If you land Rupture on a gank, it's an easy double kill and snowball. Once ahead, if you consistently live through teamfights your assist streak and full ult stacks make you an unkillable monster.
If you miss Ruptures and/or are up against strong poke, enjoy crippling mana problems and being astonishingly squishy because you can't fully make use of your passive.
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I would like to lend my support for support sion If he gets ahead early he can destroy cause his early damage is bonkers. I have run it my self back in season 3. In like mid range plat.
Also I have been playing some AP trist recently. I have found that you can also use her bot. Great damage early on and she continues to be a scary assassin late game. With ALL ad comps cropping up once in a while you can just go AP trist and prodvide some needed magic damage to your team. Fun stuff :3
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I think a midgame timing with 2+ Sheens on a team could be incredibly strong. Play lanes out normally, then everyone goes mid and shoves hard. Sheen will allow a lot of damage on tower and adds a fairly significant amount of burst/poke as well as extra mana for extended siege. It is probably one of the most cost efficient damage items for champs who have mana and some sort of AP scaling.
This idea is heavily based off of some ARAM I've been playing (yeah, scrublife). I build sheen on a huge number of champs-- Miss Fortune, Nasus, etc. who all benefit from it in addition to the more usual guys like TF and Fizz.
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Hello,
during the pre-season I've been testing a lot of unconvential supports, some with surprisingly good results and some with less than stellar. One of the most interesting and with fairly good results was Veigar and Ziggs.
Ziggs was immensely strong as a lane bully with his extremely strong poke, from level 6 and on we had gigantic kill potential in lane and his ability to "gank" (or counter-gank) mid from the botlane with his ultimate had frequently an impact on the game. Randomly stealing a dragon or blue buff was certainly also fun.
Primarily his ability to poke down the enemy adc and support led to some extremely hard snowballed games and his CC from mines and satchel were surprisingly good with high amounts of CDR. While his damage certainly wasn't on par with a fully farmed standard Ziggs it was surprisingly strong with just Guise, Sorcs and a good amount of CDR. The ability to blast down towers with his passive made for some really strong push-centric compositions too.
The other suprise support was Veigar. Yes really. Starting with Relic Shield and rushing a Targon's gave a lot of value, as it sort of doubles his gain from the shared gold with free AP from his Q. The thought was with max CDR his AoE is very very very frequently accesible, 9.6 second CD, compared to it's power. Despite not being full AP he still had the capability to burst down squishies. In the lategame we could funnel farm into him and ultimately he could one-shot the carries regardless of being "underfarmed" alongside having immense teamfight presence thanks to his AoE stun. He was suprisingly safe and fairly fast as a splitpusher once he had max CDR - Event Horizon easily clears the caster minions.
Any thoughts from the more experienced "mad scientists"?
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I have no idea what's going on with TROLLS right now. Monte has disappeared.
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Sorry, I got back from my honeymoon and there's post-wedding stuff I've had to do.
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On January 23 2014 01:02 Seuss wrote:
Sorry, I got back from my honeymoon and there's post-wedding stuff I've had to do.
Congrats
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Thanks, I apologize for today as well. I was planning to try and get TROLLS going but I'm in the middle of a job hunt and the day got away from me.
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It's Monday, not Tuesday.
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You can tell I have it all together.
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WARWICK SUPPORT! RAWR!
They say i'm the best girl support player EUW. They call me the "ultimate bujin the 2nd that can never be caught and have amazing game sense and pro reads", they see me in champ select they already calculate how many lp they are going to lose....all of that is true, and yet, when i try to pitch my warwick s4 support idea i get:
"NO IT DOESNT SUPPORT YOU DONT HELP ADC IN LANE IT'S TROLL"
"LOL ANY SUPPORT COULD DO THAT THAT'S NOT SUPPORT..."
"F*** IT'S WW SUPPORT GJ TROLLING TROLL I REPORT+FEED+AFK HF NOW THIS COMMUNITY !@#$%"
Now i tried to sell my ideas to #r/leagueoflegends channel in quakenet and in this site...but got a COLD SHOULDER!
Tried to write a blueprint of a guide to http://www.lolking.net/guides/229609 but NO WATCHERS
Beaten silver-plat level euw games with it but WHO WILL TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, MAYBE I GOT CARRIED?![BOO]
Please, TROLLS, help me get this champion into the korean meta, and if not that to the na meta, and if not that at least have him called valid support!
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On January 28 2014 20:40 Sarah Bryant wrote:WARWICK SUPPORT! RAWR!They say i'm the best girl support player EUW. They call me the "ultimate bujin the 2nd that can never be caught and have amazing game sense and pro reads", they see me in champ select they already calculate how many lp they are going to lose....all of that is true, and yet, when i try to pitch my warwick s4 support idea i get: "NO IT DOESNT SUPPORT YOU DONT HELP ADC IN LANE IT'S TROLL" "LOL ANY SUPPORT COULD DO THAT THAT'S NOT SUPPORT..." "F*** IT'S WW SUPPORT GJ TROLLING TROLL I REPORT+FEED+AFK HF NOW THIS COMMUNITY !@#$%" Now i tried to sell my ideas to #r/leagueoflegends channel in quakenet and in this site...but got a COLD SHOULDER! Tried to write a blueprint of a guide to http://www.lolking.net/guides/229609 but NO WATCHERS Beaten silver-plat level euw games with it but WHO WILL TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, MAYBE I GOT CARRIED?![BOO] Please, TROLLS, help me get this champion into the korean meta, and if not that to the na meta, and if not that at least have him called valid support!
The Passion you have for this is quite notable.
I do think think that support WW coullllld work. The main issues being lack early laning presence.
With the new season giving supports more gold support WW actually gets a good boost. As he maybe be able to build enough items so he can survive in a teamfight with out getting wrecked.
His Ult used as peel would do fine. And his Q for Damage on bruisers going for his adc might help. Of course the main reason that support WW can work is that sweet, sweet AS buff. 40 AS for the team is nothing to scoff at. If WW can get full CD I believe it can remain up indefinitely or close to it. With this rise of characters like Yasuo. WW looks even better.
So looking at this. WW altogether doesn't look terrible at support. The main issues being having a rough early lane. Given that he should be paired with a strong early game ADC. Cait comes to mind.
I got to diamond 5 (not too notable by any means) last season to give some context and two of my mains were support. (Leona, Blitz)
So Sarah I'm curious on your experience with support WW so far. When has he worked? When has he done poorly? All that good stuff :D
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Also Sarah why not play support WW on D5 Account ????
I also took a look at your guide. Why did you decided on building WW damage as opposed to a CDR tank for instance.
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Like i said lane phase is his weakest but with good play you will suvrive it unless enemy is 90lp dia1 bot lane who can perfect harras, but you wouldnt pick alot of support against that anyway.
You always go cdr tanky, eventually, and you can get 1 armour or giants after wits, but damage is key to this. You want to make sure your ganks/initiates with ulti will secure a kill, so ignite+botrk active+wits=gl getting out of. Of course you will get cd from FH/SV but that can wait till mid game[or 2nd item if you are pressed]. If he had just his ulti to rely on he wouldnt be diffrant than one trick pony troll support, but it's his gank+vision+as+tankiness+damage power that makes him good.
As i said i win all the time with him on silver-plat on 2 diffrant accounts with good %, but many people say "hurr durr you are diamond you can win with ashe support playing with one leg at plat", so i want other people to try it and see for themselvs, sadly no one is willing even to test it.
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Random timbit: Darius jungle as a counter to pantheon jungle is really really good. Pantheon melts to darius ult and kinda has to go in to do anything. Scales better and in a fight just wrecks him.
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I just played a game as Zigg support and it's soooo fun :D
It was vs an MF+zylean so he already didn't had a great range and if zyl wanted to put a bomb on someone, he eat lots of poke from me.
I think it's work a try.
on another game, I also tried Gangplank andok but not that good
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He's good in theory, except when my duo plays Draven, I play Morgana support. Morgana support is really, really good with Draven- her Black Shield (to excuse the pun) is actually BS. With one spell, you effectively negate the enemy support's ability to CC and damage. Then you still have a pretty damaging snare, a great zone control/ creep clearing tool and a game changing ult.
Her ult is not that great midgame as you will only very rarely have the tankiness/AP to use it in outright fights, but she is very strong in jungle skirmishes with narrow paths and bushes. It also offers a lot of control around dragon.
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zigg supp definitly workable. his cc is rly strong. and his dps with cdr, allthou lacking in ap, is pretty high.
but another idea: what about a close range ad+long range ap lane?
starting items for close range: relic shield
starting item for ranged ap: spellthiefs edge
my main idea would be: yasuo+lulu
they synergize super well -> once they reach lvl 6, there is no way of loosing an all in 
and omg... if they engage on yasuo, or anyone... dat counter engage with lulu into yasuo ult chained... so gud.
so... basicly 2 different ideas:
getting moar gold out of the duo lane via double gold item!
annie for example can trigger spellthiefs edge pretty much every 10 sec... if she gets money from relic shield on top of that... so much gold ;>
and another idea: yasuo on bot lane:
his W is perfect vs ranged champions, making trades on bot lane often 2v1.
his Q actually has bigger range than auto attacks (if u saw some yasuos, he can kite with his Q against close ranged champions )
in teamfights, he can kite close ranged (couse of his Q range) and zone enemy ranged champions out (his wall rly is sooooo strong)... maybe u dont even need a ranged adc on another lane because of that
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Hi there,
I'm playing in a league right now where my ranked 5v5 team is playing a team compromised mostly of diamond 1 level players. The majority of my team is like at mid gold level.
Are there some weird all-in type strats we can do to try to win the game?
Any ideas or suggestions would be welcome!
Thanks in advance
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On February 20 2014 09:14 haiau wrote:
Hi there,
I'm playing in a league right now where my ranked 5v5 team is playing a team compromised mostly of diamond 1 level players. The majority of my team is like at mid gold level.
Are there some weird all-in type strats we can do to try to win the game?
Any ideas or suggestions would be welcome!
Thanks in advance
The spirit of this thread is more about you coming up with ideas to try rather than have them given to you. For instance you are interested in All-In comps. What would a comp like that require? What would be the pros/cons of even running it? Is it a comp that has to do well early or does it have to weather the storm until late game?
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Australia18228 Posts
Has anyone tried a 6 man ADC Toprush on Hexakill? Seems like it would be even harder to stop than in 5v5
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Tried Twitch/Cassiopeia in Hexakill. First blood should almost be guaranteed if you wait in the far lane bush; after that, Cass now has extreme amounts of gold from Frostfang, because landing either Q or W procs the full Frostfang effect thanks to the DoT.
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On March 04 2014 00:00 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Tried Twitch/Cassiopeia in Hexakill. First blood should almost be guaranteed if you wait in the far lane bush; after that, Cass now has extreme amounts of gold from Frostfang, because landing either Q or W procs the full Frostfang effect thanks to the DoT.
Ticks OP
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On March 04 2014 00:00 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Tried Twitch/Cassiopeia in Hexakill. First blood should almost be guaranteed if you wait in the far lane bush; after that, Cass now has extreme amounts of gold from Frostfang, because landing either Q or W procs the full Frostfang effect thanks to the DoT.
Incidentally, the tick damage from Zilean's bomb does not trigger frostfang, sadly.
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On March 05 2014 04:14 Tooplark wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2014 00:00 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Tried Twitch/Cassiopeia in Hexakill. First blood should almost be guaranteed if you wait in the far lane bush; after that, Cass now has extreme amounts of gold from Frostfang, because landing either Q or W procs the full Frostfang effect thanks to the DoT. Incidentally, the tick damage from Zilean's bomb does not trigger frostfang, sadly.
Bomb is just a visible countdown, it doesn't do damage
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Oddly Teemo's DoT on his E doesn't proc Frostfang, and I assume neither does Gangplank's.
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On March 05 2014 04:51 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2014 04:14 Tooplark wrote:On March 04 2014 00:00 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Tried Twitch/Cassiopeia in Hexakill. First blood should almost be guaranteed if you wait in the far lane bush; after that, Cass now has extreme amounts of gold from Frostfang, because landing either Q or W procs the full Frostfang effect thanks to the DoT. Incidentally, the tick damage from Zilean's bomb does not trigger frostfang, sadly. Bomb is just a visible countdown, it doesn't do damage
Hm. Maybe they changed it, but there was a definite point in time when bomb did one point of true damage with each tick. It was added so that bomb would trigger tower aggro. That was a really old change, though, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn it was reverted.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
It still draws tower aggro, not sure if it still does dmg though.
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On January 14 2014 00:39 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I've been trying this in normals. It's ultra high variance -- like a tightrope.
If you land Rupture on a gank, it's an easy double kill and snowball. Once ahead, if you consistently live through teamfights your assist streak and full ult stacks make you an unkillable monster.
If you miss Ruptures and/or are up against strong poke, enjoy crippling mana problems and being astonishingly squishy because you can't fully make use of your passive.
I played with someone in normals doing this around this time frame. If it was you, I'm sorry for all the rage. I enjoy laning with some weird supports but this wasn't one of them.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Haha, doesn't sound like me -- I only play normals as part of a premade. Did reasonably well as Cho support but I've now moved on to jungle Ezreal as my go-to normals pick.
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On the subject of fun/somewhat viable supports, give Rumble a try. You can get triple ticks from his flamespitter with Spellthief. Yeah, the mana regen is a wasted stat on him but being mana-less you can poke in lane pretty well with your harpoons and he has great dragon control and still puts out pretty good damage late game. I start frostfang then rush sightstone/sorc boots/frost queen's claim/haunting guise/rylais. Finishing Frost queen's claim is debatable but I feel it gives him just enough AP to do some damage and with the active and your harpoons it's really fun chasing people down.
His biggest drawback is obviously his lack of hard c.c. but if you're good with your harpoons he has pretty good poke/slow and really excels in teamfights and objective control and makes for one hell of a kill lane post-6
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Is Lucian top too mainstream for TROLLS? I'm still struggling with what the optimal build for him is. In my mind he has "Karthus syndrome" where he wants just about every item. He needs AD, LS, CDR, and mana, while also fitting in a Triforce somewhere. And do you lose too much damage going no-crit?
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Similarily, watching zion and balls play AD nidalee top, the only drawback of the build is mana issues - can they be alleviated in a decent manner?
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I would think you could build him similar to Jayce with a tear into manamune/boots of lucidity. Either that or just rush sheen into triforce. Or maybe try running mana regen seals and building him standard or just be really conservative with mana and not trade very much. EDIT: blue build works really well
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On July 23 2014 06:44 Duvon wrote:
Similarily, watching zion and balls play AD nidalee top, the only drawback of the build is mana issues - can they be alleviated in a decent manner?
Seen brusier nids go chalice -> Trinity and it works pretty well. Sell it later in the game for something more cost effective of course.
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what if you had hec noc and quinn wandering around with 2 strong wave clearers. come in like a wrecking ball every fight
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Even though I know the idea is most likely a bad one, for s5 I want to play with the idea of switching jungle items to control what smite I have at different points of the game. For example let's say I am using Shaco and start with Stalker Blade to make sure that my opening ganks have a higher chance of success, since having them slowed is more important than extra damage since the stats are low at the start. Later on when more folks have more defenses, I may want Skirmisher Saber for the extra damage since I will have the slow from shiv poison. Something like this seems interesting to research. Would it be viable? If so at what timing would this need to occur? Would it work for other types of junglers, as in a tank jungler going trailblazer to help them level faster? Then popping over to poachers for the move speed to keep their presence in the lanes high?
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EPT
