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On December 12 2013 21:23 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 16:24 krndandaman wrote:
How about bruiser gragas?
With the E changes building him bruiser seems to be decent.
Good tankiness+ad steroid, lots of sustain, great CC, and his E actually scales better with AD.
His other skills aren't that useless in the toplane with Q reducing atkspeed up to 40% at max level and his ult providing great CC with decent base damage. Mixed damage ftw?
Also every E hit reduces CD by half.
This actually seems viable somewhat. I'd love to hear thoughts on this as well. Especially considering how Trinity seems in theory so strong on him, all parts (even parts of sheen/zeal/phage) are very good for him as a bruiser build. Spirit Visage seems tailor made for a bruiser Gragas build, all the stats are bonkers on him as an off/tank. Full on out hybrids red/quints and standard armor+mr yellows and blues would probably be the optimal rune page.
So I've done a fair amount of tank gragas and i've ventured now and then towards more bruisery.
My feeling is that you really need to tank up hard before you can get super bruisery. If you go straight to triforce, you'll be too squishy in fights. Maybe this is just because I'm used to playing tanks, but here's what works best for me in terms of build:
Spirit Visage -> Sheen -> Randuins -> Triforce against a balanced-damage team
if you're stomping your lane, get Sheen first
get Ninja Tabi and maybe early Warden Mail against a phys lane/phys team
rush Cowl then get Merc Treads against a magic lane/magic team
I've usually been running flash tele or ghost tele, opening flask, and eventually getting Distortion enchant for boots
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So, for the 2-1-2 comp.
What if we ran Caitlyn Nunu mid? Has a lot of pushing power and Nunu can blood boil Cait and then check buffs, and has good buff control with Consume.
Then you can run Cho'Gath top and play him nice and push heavy, followed by Sivir+whatever bot lane.
Thoughts?
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Cho' is the CC king, with a nice true damage munch on divers to top it off.
Personally I think Shyvana is just brutal at the moment though.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
The weakness of the double ADC comp is divers. Double ADC comps eventually collapse if you cannot protect the squishies. Hence why Cho'Gath a better choice than Teemo; true damage + knockup + slow + silence to peel for your ADC's. He's also a rock in lane and won't suffer too much from lack of a jungler.
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So how about this comp:
Top lane - Cho, takes teleport.
Mid lane - Caitlyn Nunu, Nunu takes smite.
Bot lane - Jinx Zilean
Make this a blue side comp.
Cait/Nunu do red buff at level 1, Nunu smite/consumes it and then Cait takes it and goes to lane. Nunu opens relic shield, takes his charges, hits level 2, then blood boils Cait and goes to blue buff, gives blue buff to Cho with another smite/consume.
Cho with blue buff powerhouses and pushes like crazy, Cait with red buff pushes like crazy, Nunu shows up wherever the enemy jungler goes.
Bot lane Jinx Zilean is good at bullying, good at clearing, good at harassing people under towers and good at poking down towers. Zileans passive is making up for the EXP deficit of going 2-1-2. Zilean goes ancient coin and after finishing Talisman builds AP items, while Nunu gets the more supporty stuff like Mikaels + Locket.
After taking down outer towers you group up early either as 5 or 4+Cho splitting and teleporting into fights. The objective is to never engage, you're just going to push hard and take towers. Cait + Jinx both have huge AA range to poke at towers.
When the enemy engages on you Cho and Nunu peel, Zilean revives whichever carry they focus, and Cait+Jinx kill them.
Bans would be Olaf, Sivir, and then some mid with good waveclear and anti siege that you think might be picked like Lux/Ziggs/whoever.
Alternative picks:
Yorick maybe? Also good at early bullying with blue buff, another revive ult.
Sivir for the duo lane potentially. I like Jinx's AA range though.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
The other advantage of Cho is that Smite got nerfed, but his ult didn't. Between Nunu/Cho it should be impossible to be outsmited.
Come to think of it I like the idea of Cho support. The Relic Shield line of items is great on him, he has great CC/utility, his ult secures neutral monsters, and if he's just supporting he shouldn't lose his stacks that often. You'd probably have to pick him into a melee enemy support though, and his mana issues might be crippling if you miss Rupture too many times.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I feel like people always considerably overestimate the difficulty of landing Rupture. It's difficult to hit against an unimpeded enemy, but any enemy afflicted by any slow, chokepoint, or other kind of movement restriction is a sitting duck. The amount of the cc applied also makes up for the difficulty of hitting it: a knockup plus 60% slow afterwards.
The 2.5s silence is also not dodgeable.
I agree on the rest of your points. Which is why I think he is more useful as a disengage / peel cc tank, as opposed to an engage cc tank. Rupture is much stronger as a disengage than as an engage.
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What I'm looking for with the Cho pick is somebody who
A - pushes very hard
B - is hard to gank and can keep pushing even in a 1v2.
C - brings lots of peel and disengage to teamfights and can kill diving bruisers. Engaging is really not necessary.
D - Is fine taking teleport.
E - Likes blue buff.
That's why I think Cho is ideal. I'm also liking the idea of Yorick, though.
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On December 16 2013 10:36 krndandaman wrote:
I think jayce fits your criteria better. Yorick and cho are actually easy to gank. Perhaps kayle? Karma top? Lotsa options actually
Wut Cho's you been ganking?
o.o
Flash + Rupture is really hard to gank. Either you run right through the rupture and cho runs away because you both CC'd, or or let up on your chase and Cho gets away anyway. I could probably post like 300+ minutes of people chasing around HSGG's Chogath while S2 CLG took barons / Inhibs / Dragons.
That being said, I have a requiest for you guys. Early Ap Sion - > Late AD Sion.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=438219¤tpage=32#633
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I actually think Shikyo might be onto something with the Malzahar support. Voidlings and space aids hit like trucks early and that ult is easier to use effectively as peel/antidive than it is to pick off a priority target. Voidlings won't even do much less damage than AP versions of Malz, since they don't scale off AP.
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Malz has limited ways to harass pre 6 though. I assume you're just gonna max E and hit it on their carry with 650 range? And how will you get voidlings out if you aren't using spells to kill minions?
Post 6 he's probably a great support.
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Jungle Morgana~
Runes are hybrid pen/atkspd, mr/level, flat armor, AP quint with 0/13/17 masteries (pick what you want really, just want the bladed armor and buff duration). Start machete + 5, can clear to spirit stone + boots.
Difficult first clear, but after that incredibly fast with a couple levels in W. Q is an amazing ganking tool combined with a lane that has some sort of CC, and putting E on a laner lets them dive easily without worrying about CC. Midgame her kit has amazing teamfight potential. Her ult is a little awkward to use (at least for me), but can be good in teamfights.
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Malz has no peeling or sustain at all pre-6 too (not even a slow), nor does he have damage mitigation tools, and he can't all-n as hard as other champions in this case (Blitzcrank, Leona).
What would you do in case of strong jungle presence? He's pretty slow with his base MS so even walking near river is risky. Well, I guess you can still fuck with Vi by silencing her while her Q charges but apart from that...
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EPT
