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Who said 2-1-2 had to be push centric? I think it's a bit premature to say that is the only combination that will work. Monte proposed that as one possibility.
I think there are secondary considerations if there are going to be two ranged ADCs in a 2/1/2 situation, such as having someone who is reasonably tanky. I mean sure you could go Cait/Lulu, Varus/Janna or something, but if they get on top of your ADCs for any length of time, you're probably not in a good spot due to how fragile everyone is.
Maybe that's an argument to have Sejuani mid more than anything... <_<
I mean obviously they're going to have the jungler slide up to top lane soon enough, but I think Sej+Twitch would do fine against most melee top+jungler combinations.
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If your focus isn't to take down early towers then why would you do it?
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I can think of:
-Shit on enemy solo-laner.
-Babysit another weak-early lategame carry.
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So, in terms of specific champions to try, what "unconventional" supports do we want to try?
I want to try Urgot support.
Masteries would be something like 0/13/17, runes would be like AD/Armor/MR/AD or maybe even Arpen/Armor/MR/Arpen.
Core items would be Talisman of Ascension, Sightstone and Black Cleaver.
End build would be like Merc Treads, Talisman of Ascension, Ruby Sightstone, Black Cleaver, Iceborne Gauntlet.
Basic concept is that Urgots kit provides more of a supporty screw up the other team role rather than a do tons of damage role, and can now get gold without being in a laning position. He's a big lane bully, and starting Ancient Coin + Utility masteries (+Mana regen runes when runes change) will let him keep mana while bullying early game.
In teamfights he'll have scary engage with Shurelya active + his ult, good poking with acid hunters, and is building semi tanky with HP from Ruby Sightstone+BC to work with his built in ult resists. Or he can stay back and peel for the ADC by staying at max ult range from his own ADC and ulting an enemy champ who dives in.
He supports by getting autos and Q's on all the enemy damage dealers to make use of his passive rather than trying to kill targets, and using E + the BC shred to keep the enemy teams armor super low, and peeling with his ult and slows.
I think you'd want a team where his added armor shred is real beneficial, but in the right composition I think he'd be useful.
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Has the lategame 2nd ap carry from support had a red hot go yet? There are many potential candidates, including the already popular Annie and zyra. The obvious advantage is a legitimate ap damage threat at the expense of survivability. You also have extra pick potential. I think if you have a team comp with a tank top and/or jungle you can afford to build damage.
Could lead to some sick aoe/wombo comps with added damage.
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There are a lot of AP carries who's abilities are CC/utility heavy enough to look at them in a support role with increased gold.
Some candidates are:
Lux
Zyra
Annie
Fiddlesticks
Orianna
Elise
Leblanc
Maokai
Gragas
Kayle
Lissandra
Galio
Chogath
Cassiopeia
Nidalee
Viktor
I'm sure there are more. Zyra, Fiddlesticks, and IMO to a lesser extent Annie are already obviously awesome supports.
There are also a few ADs that I think might make pretty reasonable supports, such as:
Ashe
Urgot
Pantheon
Jarvan
People should totes add suggestions to these lists. Keep in mind that a support should still have
A - A strong early game
B - Skills that allow for some sort of peeling or CC in teamfights.
C - Even though you're getting more gold, shouldn't be a champ that requires a very high farm position, such as Ryze lets say.
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From S3:
Ashe support gets pooped on. She has no hard CC (except her ult) or escape and is squishy.
IDK about Urgot, Panth is one of those annoying bruiser ones that if you don't figure out will bully you out of lane.
J4 support has been fun and semi-legit imo, would have caught more traction but Nami came out.
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I think you'd want to pair Ashe with a laner who also has CC, such as Jinx. I also think she'd be more of a 2v1 support, sort of similar to Annie.
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On December 08 2013 01:24 Ketara wrote:
There are a lot of AP carries who's abilities are CC/utility heavy enough to look at them in a support role with increased gold.
Some candidates are:
Lux
Zyra
Annie
Fiddlesticks
Orianna
Elise
Leblanc
Maokai
Gragas
Kayle
Lissandra
Galio
Chogath
Cassiopeia
Nidalee
Viktor
I'm sure there are more. Zyra, Fiddlesticks, and IMO to a lesser extent Annie are already obviously awesome supports.
There are also a few ADs that I think might make pretty reasonable supports, such as:
Ashe
Urgot
Pantheon
Jarvan
People should totes add suggestions to these lists. Keep in mind that a support should still have
A - A strong early game
B - Skills that allow for some sort of peeling or CC in teamfights.
C - Even though you're getting more gold, shouldn't be a champ that requires a very high farm position, such as Ryze lets say.
I'd add Syndra, Xerath and Brand to that list. Syndra is an obvious choice. Plenty of Cc and nuke potential. The other two don't provide much cc but make up for it in straight damage. Both are pretty brutal in lane, particularly brand. His early damage is insane, especially against squishy adcs. Xerath gives you excellent poke and almost a guaranteed kill at 6. Obviously you need your team fight cc from another source eg. Utility mid like liss or cc junglers like naut or Sej.
They kinda fail against hard engage because they only have single target peel, so I wouldn't draft them first.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Stupid theorycraft Jax build:
* Boots
* Muramana
* Rod of Ages x4
Jax gets lots of health from the RoA, and the Muramana/RoA provide the free armor/MR during his ult. Muramana is procced on Jax's very fast basic attacks as well as his Q and W, so he makes a lot of use out of the insane mana pool. At full build, Muramana is near +100 AD and each proc is >200 additional damage.
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How does Kayle work with Targon's?
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On December 08 2013 09:44 ticklishmusic wrote:
How does Kayle work with Targon's?
Is E on? No execute.
Is E off? Execute.
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AP support Xerath is interesting. Pre-6 I see him being quite weak to anyone who wants to go all-in, while yet providing no sustain. After 6 he can actually push back in an all-in situation as long as he didn't get caught and blown up (by, say, Annie), and once he starts to rank up his W he has the potential to be a huge bully. But late-game he is absolutely game-changing.
Seems like he'd be good with Varus, perhaps, or maybe Caitlin: both have strong poke, and Varus brings a slow and a snare that makes it easier to hit all of Xerath's stuff in an all-in. Sej and J4 seem like good junglers with him, as does a Lissandra or maybe even Morgana mid.
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On December 08 2013 09:14 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Stupid theorycraft Jax build:
* Boots
* Muramana
* Rod of Ages x4
Jax gets lots of health from the RoA, and the Muramana/RoA provide the free armor/MR during his ult. Muramana is procced on Jax's very fast basic attacks as well as his Q and W, so he makes a lot of use out of the insane mana pool. At full build, Muramana is near +100 AD and each proc is >200 additional damage.
LOL if you actually managed to get these items in a real game it'd be hilarious while his ult was active.
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On December 10 2013 05:04 EquilasH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 09:14 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Stupid theorycraft Jax build:
* Boots
* Muramana
* Rod of Ages x4
Jax gets lots of health from the RoA, and the Muramana/RoA provide the free armor/MR during his ult. Muramana is procced on Jax's very fast basic attacks as well as his Q and W, so he makes a lot of use out of the insane mana pool. At full build, Muramana is near +100 AD and each proc is >200 additional damage. LOL if you actually managed to get these items in a real game it'd be hilarious while his ult was active.
But wouldn't you at least get Frozen Heart, maybe Lich Bane as well as last 1-2 items to peak sooner? (as by the time you'll get them, the rods will have stacked up.)
Ult is only 8 seconds though...
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On December 10 2013 05:04 EquilasH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 09:14 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Stupid theorycraft Jax build:
* Boots
* Muramana
* Rod of Ages x4
Jax gets lots of health from the RoA, and the Muramana/RoA provide the free armor/MR during his ult. Muramana is procced on Jax's very fast basic attacks as well as his Q and W, so he makes a lot of use out of the insane mana pool. At full build, Muramana is near +100 AD and each proc is >200 additional damage. LOL if you actually managed to get these items in a real game it'd be hilarious while his ult was active.
Assuming he bought Merc Treads, and assuming no runes or masteries, during his ult, Jax would have:
4872 HP
4460 mana
226 AD
320 AP
194 armor
187 MR
With MM proc, each Q and W would do ~900 damage. Every basic attack gets up to an additional 267 damage from the MM proc.
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Why not make one of those RoAs a Lich Bane so you can one-hit squishies with Q+ultpassive+W+Lichbane? 
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I think this Jax build theorycraft is silly.
4-5 RoA is strong on most champions because it's super efficient stats, but not many games get to the 70 minutes you need to stack all of your RoA's.
And how would you ever get there as Jax? You'd get beaten up in lane while you buy all that mana and AP.
Is very silly, too silly for TROLLS imo.
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EPT
