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Maybe something like:
First duo - Jinx Zyra
Second duo - Caitlyn Fiddle
Mid - Heimerdinger
Heimer takes smite and does blue buff level 1 with turret help. Goes to lane and starts spamming spells and shoving. You don't take red buff but you put a ward on it so if the enemy jungler invades you can collapse on him. Heimer also rushes Banner of Command for even more push potential, and to assist Zyra damage.
Each of the duo lanes has a lot of CC, free vision, and above average AA range champions. The ADCs take Relic Shields and the supports take Ancient Coin / Spellthiefs Edge and they shove like crazy. Focus is on taking towers down.
Once you're grouped basically what you have is a comp that doesn't engage but is crazy difficult to engage on. Your champs are all squishy but the enemy team is diving into Cait traps, Heimer turrets and Zyra plants, and has to contend with Zyra ult, Zyra/Jinx roots, Heimer stun, Fiddle fear/silence, etc. You push down outer towers early then use that gold advantage to group and rush down inhibitors. Ignore dragon/baron, take inhibitors, win game.
Alternatively put smite on Fiddle and have him whack blue with it for Heimer before walking to lane, so that in loading screen it looks like:
Solo lanes - Heimer Caitlyn
Duo lane - Jinx Zyra
Jungle - Fiddlesticks
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Theory: Lategame AP Bruiser Support Thresh
Rationale: With increased gold in the duo lane, if him and the ADC go double Relic start into Targon first item on Thresh, the added gold allows him to buy things he wouldn't normally be able to go. My thought of item build is Relic > T1 Shoes + Targon > T2 Shoes + Sightstone > Locket > Abyssal.
The Kicker: He has very reasonable AP scaling with a fair bit of front-loaded damage in all his abilities, and only 1 decent AP item is needed to make the threat of a Thresh hook + dive being able to decimate an enemy front line or back line.
Possible Drawback: Requires a lot of team coordination and the mindset of playing to the lategame (8k - 10k gold per champ), and is reliant on hitting your hooks to be at it's maximum effectiveness.
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crap... I didn't saw the date change  will be there next week
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
2-1-2 theorycrafting
Play with Blitzcrank Nunu as supports. Send Blitz mid and Nunu to bot (if blue) or top (if purple). Have Smite on Blitzcrank.
The goal is to use Blitz's hook/smite and Nunu's Consume to be able to maintain buff control. Smite is a natural fit on Blitzcrank because it allows otherwise impossible hooks. Pair Blitz with an ADC that needs blue (Caitlyn, Ezreal) and Nunu with an ADC that benefits from Blood Boil (Vayne). Have a tanky, disruptive solo laner (Cho'Gath) to make up for the double ADC comp. At level one, the buff/level/numbers advantage should allow both ADC's to dominate their lane and take early towers.
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Idea: Play Poppy. Targons. Get big fast, kill all the things.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
2-1-2 theorycraft - double AD
There should be two distinct pairs of AD/support combos. One AD should be focused on teamfighting, and would be our hard carry if we can't end the game through aggressive pushing. The other AD should be a super efficient and fast pusher to put pressure on the map and force decisions from the enemy team. Here's what I'm thinking:
First pair (Pusher): Caitlyn/Fiddles.
These champions can pretty much shove the lane all day without too much personal risk. Fiddles' fear and Cait's E are excellent anti-gank tools. I'd put this pair in the bottom lane, their job is to take the outer tower as fast as possible and attract the enemy jungler. Cait/fiddles is probably ideal for this role.
Second pair (Skirmisher): Vayne/Annie.
This pair has legitimate kill potential, especially vs a solo laner. I would put this pair in top lane. Their goal would be to put immense pressure on the enemy solo laner to attract the jungler, as well as having kill potential to snowball. There are likely other combos that would work in this role.
Mid: This needs to be a champion that A) provides some utility/disruption/space control, and B) can easy clear Wraith camp and distribute buffs with Smite. Karthus, Heimer, Galio, Orianna, maybe Diana would work as mages. I think a bruiser here might be good as well, someone like Riven, Pantheon, Jax - someone mobile who will be a bigger threat in a teamfight and will force the enemy team into a decision they don't want to make - IE, which target will they focus on?
I think there's some solid strategic merit to this. I could see a potentially difficult midgame when the enemy team is beginning to tank up, and our ADs aren't at their 3-4 item timings yet. This would be the first weakness of this strategy that we'd have to work around. I think that through aggressively pushing and managing the lanes, the double AD team could be reasonably far ahead simply because they will DOMINATE the offlane, and no AD/support combo can stop cait/fiddles from pushing as they please. The enemy jungler is the wildcard here. Ideally he'd be too busy babysitting lanes to take his own jungle reliably. That's part of the strength of pushing so aggressively - we're aiming to force a reaction that the enemy jungler doesn't want to make.
However, managing our own jungle is pretty crucial. I don't think it's ideal to just let our own jungle go un-farmed, and there's always the chance that the enemy jungler will just let their solo laner hang, and farm both jungles for a while. This could be a problem if the bottom lane is against a pair that can match our pushing power. We may end up in a stall where we can't actually get bottom tower, in which case the enemy jungler has much more freedom in his decision making, and could become a problem.
So how do we deal with that? The first thing that comes to mind is that we need to have our own jungle properly warded. We need to KNOW when the enemy jungler is in our jungle, and we'd need to collapse on him immediately. We'd have a much stronger 2v2/3v3 teamfight in the first 10-15 minutes with a double AD 2-1-2, and we'd have to take advantage of that. The second thing we'd need to do is to properly time and distribute our buff camps. This is gonna take some coordination, but we can't afford to let the enemy team secure our buffs. If they were able to successfully time and steal our buff camps, that's gonna go a long way towards mitigating any advantage we've built through pushing.
Okay, let's say everything is okey-dokey. It's an ideal scenario: Bot lane outer tower is down, Cait/Fiddles have out-cs'd their opponents. Top lane outer tower is down, Vayne/Annie have secured a kill or two on the solo laner and the enemy jungler is camping/babysitting. Our mid is holding his own without any offensive summoners, and we've successfully held on to our buff camps for the duration of the game.
We should have:
A slight gold advantage
A massive vision advantage
A Vayne that's well on her way to hella fed status.
These are our team's strengths:
-Can push relentlessly, Cait/Fiddles can take positioning risks that other pairs couldn't because of Cait's escape and the Fiddles fear. They can escape from duo lane + jungler with appropriate ward coverage.
- We should have a superior 2v2/3v3 skirmish when our Vayne is present with our midlaner and a support. I think we'd need to build the team around this synergy for mid to lategame.
- Double AD comp means that you can aggressively push both sidelanes, forcing a decision from the enemy team. They have to split to deal with us. Depending on how they choose to do so, this opens up opportunities for playmaking from our team, IE, Cait/Fiddles can run away and waste their time if they overcommit to stopping cait's push, Vayne/Annie +1 will have kill threat if they don't send enough people, or the right people to stop them.
These are our team's weaknesses:
- Our 5v5 is lackluster until both ADs are at maximum against certain team comps
- Requirement to ban Nasus, possibly Malphite.
- We are vulnerable to being dunked under towers vs certain team comps.
- We're pretty squishy overall
- We need to be more coordinated than the enemy team running a 1-1-2+J.
Things I want to get discussion on:
- Do we need one of the ADs to be a lategame hypercarry, such as Vayne, Trist, or Ashe?
- Could we eke out enough of an advantage through having two aggressive pusher AD lanes instead of having a hypercarry with a kill support?
- What champions would we absolutely HAVE TO draft or ban?
- Who's a good candidate for the mid position?
- Other AD/Support combos that could be effective?
And most importantly:
Is having two six-item AD carries a strong enough end-game to justify this setup? Can we end games effectively through their sustained damage?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
The flipside of this is we should consider some team comps that don't have an AD carry at all, and instead feature strong melee splitpushers and a super tanky teamcomp with one or two high-damage, heavy scaling mages, so we can dive, and clean up towers afterwards. The complete opposite of a siege comp.
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On December 05 2013 04:37 ticklishmusic wrote:
Idea: Play Poppy. Targons. Get big fast, kill all the things.
I like - A lot
+ Show Spoiler +I have always loved Poppy, and any idea that can give her a reliable role in a team without having to deal with counterpicks is something I have been looking for in a long time
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I think the weakness of having two ADCs is insta-gib potential - any time you can be instagibbed but aren't able to do so when engaged upon, you put youtself in an uncertain spot.
All the opposition needs is a brolaf and something like Lux, and all the CC from your supports will still do jack shit vs them (lux for the range, olaf for the cc immunity).
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I wonder how good Zilean support would be with double ADC. Is Zilean good at harassing somebody under their tower?
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Talked to a guy I know (who was Diamond in Korea, like what?) about Poppy. I suggested doing a no jungle with a Poppy duo lane that would force the enemy jungle to assist the solo lane vs the Poppy. He said he didn't know if it would work, but thinks Poppy support might be viable.
IDK I think Poppy could see some play now.
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On December 06 2013 05:39 Ketara wrote:
I wonder how good Zilean support would be with double ADC. Is Zilean good at harassing somebody under their tower?
Quite good; the base range on his bomb is pretty good, plus he can do sneaky things like bomb creeps on both sides that are about to die near the enemy.
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How about trying that Cass/Twitch kill lane again? Now that supports get actual gold, it may be worth giving it another shot?
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I think the problem with the Cass/Twitch kill lane wasn't gold, but more that there were certain opposing lanes they were just incapable of bullying (Cait/Sona being a big example)
Worth trying though, definitely.
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On December 06 2013 11:02 entropius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 05:39 Ketara wrote:
I wonder how good Zilean support would be with double ADC. Is Zilean good at harassing somebody under their tower? Quite good; the base range on his bomb is pretty good, plus he can do sneaky things like bomb creeps on both sides that are about to die near the enemy.
And if you have a jungle shaco, you time bomb shaco who invisibly bombs the enemy to start the gank :D
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Zilean is pretty good, I imagine the spellthief or w/e is a great item on him.
His bombs need a few levels to really be effective, I feel 3 (or 2 with AP runes) is when you really start chunking the enemy.
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Zilean + Syndra lane... Best harass in the game.
Who needs ADC anyways
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Was thinking support Sejuani might work in a 2-1-2 situation, where the support Sej is in a 2v1. If it's against an enemy melee, I could foresee it being quite problematic for them. Maybe pair it with something like Twitch. My thought process is as follows: her base damage is extremely high, and she gets a 70% slow that lasts 2.5 seconds by level 8. Pair that with a champion that does a lot of sustained damage, and it seems quite scary.
Also perhaps something stupid like Sejuani+Trundle 2v1 could be hilarious. Both are quite tanky, have massive slows, and Trundle can debuff the enemy's AD. I suppose the problem with these two is, if you don't get the 2v1 you want you're probably not in a great spot. I suspect that would probably apply to support Sejuani in general too.
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I think when you're considering 2-1-2 push centric comps, all champs in the duo lanes must be ranged.
Your focus is going to be taking early towers, not killing champions. You have to assume that whatever lane is in danger of being dove is going to be supported by the enemy jungler and that 2v2 dives will not work.
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On December 06 2013 15:29 Ketara wrote:
I think the problem with the Cass/Twitch kill lane wasn't gold, but more that there were certain opposing lanes they were just incapable of bullying (Cait/Sona being a big example)
Worth trying though, definitely.
Actually gold was one of the major issues. If Cass didn't get fed she couldn't build offense fast enough to continue to be a threat. Itemization was also a notable issue; some of the builds I tried simply didn't cut it.
The final major problem was coordination/experience. Twitch really needs to be up front and aggressive so Cass can key off his poison, and Cass needs to be right there with him. One of our problems was we had to keep running people who were very uncomfortable on Twitch, so unless the brush gambit worked the lane was always dodgy.
On December 06 2013 17:00 ticklishmusic wrote:
Zilean is pretty good, I imagine the spellthief or w/e is a great item on him.
His bombs need a few levels to really be effective, I feel 3 (or 2 with AP runes) is when you really start chunking the enemy.
Spellthief's Edge is actually somewhat iffy. His bombs hurt, but they're a lot riskier and less spammable than other harass abilities. You can't really make enough back from Tribute consistently.
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EPT
